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|OT| French Presidential election - 2012 edition
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
- Start date
- Status
ComputerMKII
Banned
Even though I'm no conservative (and I like my metal music and violent videogames), I always had a little sympathy for Boutin (if only because she stood up against Sarkozy) but her rallying Sarkozy is disappointing. Not surprising, but disappointing anyway.
Heh, time to update the OP.
Will you add Jacques Cheminade?He says he got the 500 signatures, but I'm not sure if he's full of shit or what.
Not that I give a shit, just curious.
Francois hollande is like god tier material imo. You lucky bastards have someone like that to vote for
TBH, Computer didn't list any of Hollande's financial/economic stances.
I don't like Hollande, and don't trust most of the PS (I probably would have voted for DSK, but we all know how that turned out), but then again I hate Sarkozy and don't trust his government either (Guéant, Morano, ugh).
I wish Valls would have won the primary, would have made my choice a lot easier. Still no idea who I will end up voting for.
At least November will be a much easier choice for me haha
ComputerMKII
Banned
If I added Cheminade, I would have to add all the other minor candidates (0 to 1% score in the polls) and I'm not sure it's worth the hassle:
Plus, those tend to abandon quickly so I might as well wait till the Constitutional Council announces the official list of candidates anyway.
I'm aware of that. I just didn't know what to begin with when it came to translating the economical part of his program but if you're willing to do at least part of it (http://francoishollande.fr/le-projet/), I'll be happy to add it to the OP.
Yeah, I understand. I was more underlining the contrast between what i get to choose from as an american voter and what seems to be a somewhat multi-dimensional french election. It is certainly not all rosy, especially considering the state of the global economy and the ramifications the european crisis could have on France. But as a leftist some of the PS's platform sounds kind of soothing in this storm.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Jean-Luc Mélenchon is protesting before the Greek Embassy as I write this, along with Olivier Besancenot, members of the New Anticapitalist Party and "people wearing the typical mask of Anonymous".
Also, Eva Joly said she would make an official visit in Greece soon, and François Bayrou said that what was happening in Greece is the sign of what could happen to France in the future. (Edit: Source: http://www.lemonde.fr/election-pres...i-peut-arriver-chez-nous_1642740_1471069.html)
Also, Eva Joly said she would make an official visit in Greece soon, and François Bayrou said that what was happening in Greece is the sign of what could happen to France in the future. (Edit: Source: http://www.lemonde.fr/election-pres...i-peut-arriver-chez-nous_1642740_1471069.html)
^ yup can't take any of these guys seriously..
I get to vote in both elections (yay, dual-citizenship!), so here's my main issues with both systems:
US:
-fuck the Electoral College - I tend to vote (read: have always voted) Democrat, and voting from WA (or maybe NY this year?), my vote doesn't feel that useful. It was a great idea 200 years ago, but it needs to be done with.
-two party system needs a revamp (I'm still hoping for the Republican party to split in half so the Dems can have some worthwhile competition).
-primaries should also be redone (unless you're in an early state, you don't matter that much)
France:
-still waiting for an economically modern left-wing party (read this for example: http://www.economist.com/node/21526894)
-still waiting for a socially modern right-wing party (gay marriage being the big one here)
-afraid of 2002 round 2 (FN at the second round)
Over all, I prefer the French system (mainly for the whole my vote counts as much as anyone else's thing), even if I feel more represented in the US (none of the French candidates appeal to me like Obama has). I tend to be socially liberal and fiscally "soft" conservative, and there's not really a party like that in France (Bayrou?).
I'm heading back to France this weekend, I'll see who I'll vote for over the next two months I guess.
---
edit: Don't worry Computer, I saw your earlier post about FH's economic policies. Great job on the OP
can't take any of these guys seriously..I get to vote in both elections (yay, dual-citizenship!), so here's my main issues with both systems:
US:
-fuck the Electoral College - I tend to vote (read: have always voted) Democrat, and voting from WA (or maybe NY this year?), my vote doesn't feel that useful. It was a great idea 200 years ago, but it needs to be done with.
-two party system needs a revamp (I'm still hoping for the Republican party to split in half so the Dems can have some worthwhile competition).
-primaries should also be redone (unless you're in an early state, you don't matter that much)
France:
-still waiting for an economically modern left-wing party (read this for example: http://www.economist.com/node/21526894)
-still waiting for a socially modern right-wing party (gay marriage being the big one here)
-afraid of 2002 round 2 (FN at the second round)
Over all, I prefer the French system (mainly for the whole my vote counts as much as anyone else's thing), even if I feel more represented in the US (none of the French candidates appeal to me like Obama has). I tend to be socially liberal and fiscally "soft" conservative, and there's not really a party like that in France (Bayrou?).
I'm heading back to France this weekend, I'll see who I'll vote for over the next two months I guess.
---
edit: Don't worry Computer, I saw your earlier post about FH's economic policies. Great job on the OP
LordPhoque
Banned
Dupont-Aignan it is for me.
Hollande n'a aucune consistance et a été choisi par les médias après que DSK a confondu Sarcelles et le sofitel. Qui plus est, la gauche libérale-libertaire, très peu pour moi (lire Clouscard). Je me considère comme étant de gauche mais force est de constater qu'aucun candidat n'incarne les vrais idéaux de gauche, tous sont passés à la moulinette droit de l'hommiste sur le plan sociétal, et libéral/pro-UE sur le plan économique, donc par définition ils seront ineptes à nous sortir de ce marasme. Du coup en l'absence de Chevènement je me tourne vers la droite gaulliste en l'incarnation de NDA. Dommage que les médias préfèrent donner de la visibilité à MLP pour décrédibiliser les idées souverainistes.
Sorry for using french btw, if someone care to translate... it's just that I'm tired and I'm not good enough with my english to be accurate as I'd like to be when I talk about politics.
Hollande n'a aucune consistance et a été choisi par les médias après que DSK a confondu Sarcelles et le sofitel. Qui plus est, la gauche libérale-libertaire, très peu pour moi (lire Clouscard). Je me considère comme étant de gauche mais force est de constater qu'aucun candidat n'incarne les vrais idéaux de gauche, tous sont passés à la moulinette droit de l'hommiste sur le plan sociétal, et libéral/pro-UE sur le plan économique, donc par définition ils seront ineptes à nous sortir de ce marasme. Du coup en l'absence de Chevènement je me tourne vers la droite gaulliste en l'incarnation de NDA. Dommage que les médias préfèrent donner de la visibilité à MLP pour décrédibiliser les idées souverainistes.
Sorry for using french btw, if someone care to translate... it's just that I'm tired and I'm not good enough with my english to be accurate as I'd like to be when I talk about politics.
ComputerMKII
Banned
In case Sarkozy faces Marine Le Pen in the second round, who would you vote for?
That could be J-M Bockel's party.
But I don't think the answer is as obvious as "the left should embrace liberalism" - if anything, I believe it's the right that should embrace modern social policies. The PS looks old now, but that's because the party has to keep itself in one piece, its members being generally "leftists" socially but with a left-wing or a right-wing stance economically.
They'll obviously have to choose their side one day or the other, but when that happens they'll have a big popularity drop.
Man i agree with you, but unfortunately bearing a large mobilization of people and a sort of re-invigoration of the people's will throughout the democratic process, we are stuck choosing the lesser of evils. I'd pick a bastardized, watered down left over a technocratic, falsely populist right any day.
LordPhoque
Banned
Personne. Mais si MLP n'avait pas cette ligne anti-Islam très stupide, dangereuse et dans un sens américaine, je voterais pour elle (au second tour uniquement, car il y a d'autres idées auxquelles je n'adhère pas forcément, mais assez mineures, le frein principal est le côté néoconservateur, et le fait que pour NDA je suis en accord avec pratiquement tout ce qu'il dit...) A mon avis la majorité des électeurs de NDA s'abstiendraient dans le cas de figure que tu décris. Vu qu'ils se composent surtout de souverainistes de gauche et de gaullistes de droite, donc par définition pas du tout l'électorat de MLP. Peut-être que certains iraient voir du côté de Sarkozy à la limite... en tout cas c'est de loin le pire second tour qu'on pourrait espérer.
En tout cans dans une société où les médias feraient leur boulot, ce serait NDA qui aurait 20% des suffrages actuellement, mais comme on préfère mettre MLP sous les projecteurs c'est elle qui rafle la mise (surtout auprès des rafles populaires) Pour moi c'est une preuve supplémentaire que les médias sont soumis à la Banque, sans quoi ils ne tenteraient pas de porter autant atteinte aux idées nationales ou souverainistes.
Alright I'll write in english again. Quick summary
-Won't vote for any left party because I think they betrayed what they stood for (struggle of social classes, patriotism...)
-Won't vote for MLP because of her anti-Islam ideology which is very american and not in the french tradition at all
-Obvious alliance between society liberalism/economic liberalism... read authors like Clouscard or Pasolini on the subject
-Will vote for Dupont-Aignan, which is a right wing gaullist.
Too busy keeping his son away from his other son.
I'm voting with rocks.
We found the person voting for Dupont-Aignan!
^ hahaha
Bockel's party LGM is way too small unfortunately, they have some good ideas but their program is far from complete (no "foreign affairs" section on their website for example). Both parties (UMP/PS) need to modernize IMO, I'm just waiting for 2017 already.
Wow. Just read up about that. WTF.
Bockel's party LGM is way too small unfortunately, they have some good ideas but their program is far from complete (no "foreign affairs" section on their website for example). Both parties (UMP/PS) need to modernize IMO, I'm just waiting for 2017 already.
Wow. Just read up about that. WTF.
Just like half the UMP really, it's going to be FUN to see Copé, Fillon, Jupé & co stabbing each others in the back to get hold of the party for 2017.
Also just a heads up
Do like Hawkeye and read the Canard Enchaîné! Shit is going crazy at the Elysée, UMP is probably going to give out a few signatures so Le Pen can run like in 2007 with her father, Royal negotiating the presidency to the parliament, fadettes and stuff...
And you start to see their focus turn to Hollande and his staff...
The Librarian
Banned
I'm developing a cursory interest in this. As an American, the only major issue I've heard out of France in the last few years (aside form the Eurozone crises) was your SS debacle, and I had mixed feelings about it. In America, the retirement age for SS, to receive full benefits, is going to be 67, so coming from that, at times I felt like saying, "It's going to be 62. So what? It's not that bad. Better than what we have here." On the other hand, I didn't know too much of the specifics (financial reason to raise the retirement age), so I couldn't think about it too well and decide for myself if the reasoning was justified.
By the way, OP, for the first round of the presidential elections for 2007, you have Royal at 52.87% when it should be 25.87%. Nice OP, by the way.
By the way, OP, for the first round of the presidential elections for 2007, you have Royal at 52.87% when it should be 25.87%. Nice OP, by the way.
ComputerMKII
Banned
He supported Sarkozy in 2007...
I chuckled. Yeah, that story is fucked up.
Dupont-Aignant posts on NeoGAF?
Thanks, the typo is gone now.
Wow, that story is messed up.
Btw, thanks to everyone updating this thread. I'm finding this all very interesting and it's good to get an actual French perspective on this.
Je ne parle pas le français bien so the translated articles/summaries are a great help.
ComputerMKII
Banned
http://www.france24.com/en/20120213...-pen-francois-bayrou-far-right-national-frontFrench politicians refuse to help far right's Le Pen
France's mainstream parties dismissed suggestions they should lend a helping hand to Marine Le Pen on Monday. The far right leader unveiled her manifesto but is struggling to gain enough mayoral signatures to run in Aprils presidential elections.
Politicians among Frances mainstream parties were embroiled in a row on Monday over whether to come to the aid of the far right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen.
Le Pen who leads the National Front party launched her presidential manifesto on Monday, but is still not legally allowed to run in the elections for the Elysée Palace.
To do so she needs signatures of support from 500 of Frances local mayors, but her party revealed on Monday they were still around 140 short. The first round of voting is now just under ten weeks away on April 22.
This week centrist presidential candidate Francois Bayrou called for Frances mainstream political groups, the UMP led by President Nicolas Sarkozy and Francois Hollandes Socialist Party, to lend a helping hand or two to Le Pen.
The far right leader is regularly polling around 17 percent of the countrys vote and it is inconceivable to most that her name will not be on the ballot paper on April 22.
Bayrou, who heads the Democratic Movement Party (MoDem), believes Le Pens absence in the first round of elections on April 22 would create disorder around the ballot.
If the mainstream parties were game to discuss the issue then so was he, Bayrou said, because democracy is more important than political parties.
If there is a political movement, even one that I have fought against all my life, that is backed by a large number of French people but cannot express itself then it is an issue for all supporters of democracy in France, Bayrou argued.
His contentious proposal would appear to have the backing of the French public. An opinion poll taken last month revealed 70 percent of the public believe it would be bad for democracy if Marine le Pen was unable to take part in the presidential elections.
Backroom politics
But even if it had public backing, the notion that local mayors would simply sign up to back Le Pen against their wishes was ridiculed by the heavyweight parties.
An election is supposed to be a meeting between a man or a woman - meaning the candidate and the people, Manuel Valls, director of communications for Francois Hollande, told Europe 1 radio station. It is not about meeting up in a backroom to divide up signatures saying Here you have this county and Ill have this mayor, he said.
Xavier Bertrand, Labour Minster for Nicolas Sarkozys UMP party also rejected a request to discuss the issue.
I am mayor of Saint-Quentin. My signature will go to Nicolas Sarkozy and nobody else, he said.
Green Party presidential candidate Eva Joly also waded into the row. Its not my problem so dont count on me, she said. Rules are rules and they should be respected.
For her part Marine Le Pen insisted on Monday that she would not be begging mayors for their signatures. Her preferred solution to a growing predicament is a change in the law which would allow the officials to give signatures anonymously.
The question of whether the National Front will gain enough signatures is not new to the 2012 presidential election, a point not missed by politicians and the French press.
Many believe it is just a stunt to gain attention.
Its the same old song at every election, said left wing newspaper L'Humanité. Apart from 1981, the far right has always managed to put forward a candidate.
L'Humanités views were backed by Prime Minister Francois Fillon.
She will have enough signatures. The National Front play this game every election, Fillon said in an interview with French daily Le Monde.
A transparentcountry
Le Pen shrugged off the issue Monday to announce her presidential manifesto.
In a clear bit of electioneering, Le Pen vowed to cut the number of MPs and senators from 925 to 750 and reduce the salaries of both the head of state and ministers. She also said all their expense accounts would be published on the internet and elected representatives would have their pensions capped at 5,000 a month.
Her proposals would create an exemplary, rigorous and transparent country, Le Pen insisted. She also vowed to destroy the political structures and reconcile the elite and the people.
The proposals were announced outside the Palais dIéna in Paris, home to the Economic, Social and Environment Council (CESE). It was a symbolic location Le Pen said because it was an example of a costly and useless state institution, which she vowed to tackle.
Le Pen is unlikely to win enough support to ever be in a position to introduce these proposals. But what is more worrying for her is whether she will even get the opportunity to campaign on them.
With her rivals turning their back on her she will need to find support from somewhere.
And they are fucking right about it. I mean this is politics, if you can't muster to have the political base to get those 500 votes what the fuck are doing trying to run for president?
They can't get mayors elected, they can't get deputies elected, they can't get senators elected and yet the act like they are entitled to those 500 votes. WORK.FOR.IT. And the excuses about mayors being pressured into not giving votes is pretty moot when you take into account that on the 30000 french mayors you'll find a lot that are not affiliated to parties and basically don't give a fuck about what they might think.
Marin Le Pen thought that her cleaning act on the FN would make it easy and managed to not work for it in advance. So UMP will have to stealthily give them votes like in 2007 (remember the votes aren't anonymous) so that the drama of the FN not being present doesn't fall on them.
They can't get mayors elected, they can't get deputies elected, they can't get senators elected and yet the act like they are entitled to those 500 votes. WORK.FOR.IT. And the excuses about mayors being pressured into not giving votes is pretty moot when you take into account that on the 30000 french mayors you'll find a lot that are not affiliated to parties and basically don't give a fuck about what they might think.
Marin Le Pen thought that her cleaning act on the FN would make it easy and managed to not work for it in advance. So UMP will have to stealthily give them votes like in 2007 (remember the votes aren't anonymous) so that the drama of the FN not being present doesn't fall on them.
^ This.
I really believe that his reelection would be the worst thing that could happen to the country, even worse than Le Pen. If the UMP can keep the country after these five years, they won't give two shits about what they can or cannot do. At least MLP would be bad enough to cure people from voting her again (and some of her views are even more progressist than Sarkozy's. I mean, wtf).
The reform is a complex subject. People protested but most of them knew the system couldn't last. Thing is, we are one of the most productive countries in the world, and also one of the developed countries where the relationships between workers and managers are the worst. Yet, syndicates aren't representative like they are in northern Europe, so the dialogue is virtually non-existent.
However, people knew the reform wouldn't be enough to save the system. It was less about retiring at 62 than it was about having a retirement. A lot of people believe our generation won't have one.
If Sarkozy passes again, the UMP certainly won't give a damn about modernizing and the PS will just burst into pieces.
I really believe that his reelection would be the worst thing that could happen to the country, even worse than Le Pen. If the UMP can keep the country after these five years, they won't give two shits about what they can or cannot do. At least MLP would be bad enough to cure people from voting her again (and some of her views are even more progressist than Sarkozy's. I mean, wtf).
Well, in America, health care is still a touchy subject...
The reform is a complex subject. People protested but most of them knew the system couldn't last. Thing is, we are one of the most productive countries in the world, and also one of the developed countries where the relationships between workers and managers are the worst. Yet, syndicates aren't representative like they are in northern Europe, so the dialogue is virtually non-existent.
However, people knew the reform wouldn't be enough to save the system. It was less about retiring at 62 than it was about having a retirement. A lot of people believe our generation won't have one.
Alx
Member
What's so outrageous about that opinion ? Do you think there is no risk that the French government will be forced in the future to take strong austerity measures if it can't control the debt ? Or is it inconceivable that the French would riot if it happened ? (ha !)
Alx
Member
Bayrou has been telling everybody that the debt was one of our biggest problem for ten years, and it's been getting worse and worse with time. I think he has all the rights to say that in the future it could reach Greek levels if we continue this way. People don't take him seriously ? Maybe they should realize they should have listened to him ten years ago...
People shouldn't be scared, but worried : the current crisis is all about debts, and it's time to face it instead of sweeping it under the rug. We've let it grow for years thinking "nah it'll be fine, we are too big to collapse", but I'm not really ok with this behaviour.
Comparing the situation in Greece to the one in any other european country is fearmongering. It's what UMP did through Fillon at some point in the crisis.
What's different for us is that massive fraud from the political class and the people is not the part of the cause to our problems. All the situations are different but if you want to compare France's problems to what's happening elsewhere in EU at least compare it to what's happening in Italy. But headlines are way less sexy this way.
But I'll agree that he was right on the deficit thing and he has a solid stance on education. But apart from that? Not much to me.
Alx
Member
The euro is not a problem, it's a tool, a parameter of the situation, maybe an obstacle to solve a problem, but a currency is not a problem by itself. While having a huge debt that you cannot repay is obviously one.
The Euro as a currency is a problem since it makes us dependant on other countries. Which shouldn't be that much of a problem, but Sarkozy and Merkel made the incredibly stupid choice of trying to save Greece "between europeans" instead of letting the IMF in charge.
Another problem with the currency is that we don't control its emission. An indebted country can produce more of its currency (as long as inflation is contained) but in Europe it's controled by the ECB and... well, they just won't.
Also, a state isn't a family. Valérie Pécresse made a funny comparison when she was trying to pass the (idiotic, obviously) golden rule : "the state should apply the same discipline than the households". A state can borrow to refund for an indefinite amount of time, a household can't. Our debt is bad, but we're far from not being able to repay it.
Talking economics in English is a freaking nightmare.
Another problem with the currency is that we don't control its emission. An indebted country can produce more of its currency (as long as inflation is contained) but in Europe it's controled by the ECB and... well, they just won't.
Also, a state isn't a family. Valérie Pécresse made a funny comparison when she was trying to pass the (idiotic, obviously) golden rule : "the state should apply the same discipline than the households". A state can borrow to refund for an indefinite amount of time, a household can't. Our debt is bad, but we're far from not being able to repay it.
Talking economics in English is a freaking nightmare.
All of that is just making me want a federal Europe as fast as possible.
Politics in english is hard too >_< But we're having better discussion here than on the other internet places I frequent in french lol.
Alx
Member
Like I said, it's a part of the mechanism of the problem, but not the problem itself. The goal of a country is not to be dependant or not, or to be able to emit its currency or not... but rather to guarantee its population a stable, safe and reasonably comfortable life.
Even as a state you'll have to pay at one time or another, and currently we can barely afford to pay the interests of the debt... most countries that went bankrupt also thought they could keep borrowing until some miracle happens.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I disagree, but anyway.
---------------------------------
New poll :
Source: http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/politique/presidentielle-hollande-a-30-sarkozy-25-ifop-6988496.html
Sarkozy had better launch his campaign ASAP if he wants to catch up on Hollande.
---------------------------------
Hollande wants to raise the minimum wage if the economic growth improves: http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/economie/...n-cas-de-hausse-de-la-croissance-6988351.html
New Anticapitalist Party's candidate Philippe Poutou is "worried" about his signatures, claims he only has 415 out of the required 500: http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/politique...ses-parrainages-selon-besancenot-6988259.html
It's something we can work on to begin with. Bayrou making statements about "the debt" isn't helping at all. Which aspect of the debt ? Spendings ? Incomes ? Growth ?
You have to pay, but for this you can borrow from someone else.
My point is that just saying the debt is an important problem isn't enough. It's like saying the same thing about the finance. Yes, it's there, but if you point it to say we need to spend less, you're not going anywhere - the current crisis got bad because of the lack of growth more than because countries spend too much.
If you run your country good enough, debt could exist without being that much of a problem. Germany has been consistently breaking the rules of the European stability and growth pact by having its debt way over 60% of its GDP most of the time. On the other hand, Spain and Ireland were Europe's "good pupils" before the crisis.
I'm fairly long on Sarkozy's chances relative to what the polls are saying now. If France hasn't learned that social spending needs to be reined in then they deserve trouble, and the vast majority of Socialist candidates have done the party's name justice from reading their positions.
Sad Sarko seems to be the only thing between a state-growth fundamentalist and batshit racism.
Sad Sarko seems to be the only thing between a state-growth fundamentalist and batshit racism.
ComputerMKII
Banned
How is Sarkozy not a state-growth fundamentalist? I lost count of all the taxes he created, the memorial laws he had the Parliament vote and more useless rules to dictate how to live our daily life.
Also, Hadopi.
Sickboy007
Member
Honestly more than anything that's the reason i wish for Hollande's victory, the PS has a mixed history with the european union but i feel that a Sarkozy win and the continuation of his "special relationship" with Merkel would render the EU so unpopular as to make a federal state an impossibility.
He's not between. He's both.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Mélenchon is officially mad against Hollande because of the following interview, in which Hollande mentions the end of French communists:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/13/francoise-holland-uk-city-london?INTCMP=SRCH
Don't forget that he appoints the president of France Télévision and such now.
ComputerMKII
Banned
The OP should now be lighter, clearer and more complete. Jacques Cheminade is now included in the list of candidates!
ComputerMKII
Banned
By the way, I never knew what Cheminade looked like before I re-made the OP. Is it just me or does he look like Richard Dawkins?
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
De Villepin is still alive in politics?
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