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ShinySylvee · May 23, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
My assumption is that regular GAFers won't post in an actual OT for the movie, but they will pay some attention to a trailer thread, including people who used to watch the show but lost track of it. This is based on how more people seem to show up to talk in "regular" threads about the show that pop up sometimes instead of OTs. After initial trailer reactions, movie info should continue to be discussed in this thread, especially if the trailer thread doesn't stir up much interest.

I made this both the season 7 and Movie OT based on the fact that the movie likely isn't coming out until after season 7 finishes, but there is also comic and season 8 preview discussion that's likely to continue in the season 7 OT, so it didn't feel right to have two MLP OTs ongoing. Writing it out now, this decision is clearly based on the assumption that the rest of GAF wouldn't like that, which probably isn't the best way to go about this. So perhaps if the trailer thread does get a lot of activity, that can turn into a movie discussion thread later.

EDIT: HasCon tickets are up, and here's an interesting thing that comes with the VIP tickets:
Three MAGIC: THE GATHERING cards made especially for HASCON featuring a mashup of MAGIC: THE GATHERING and three awesome HASBRO brands!

Looking forward to my book horse card.

Yeah I think it makes more sense to play things by ear and see how much interest there is in the movie thread. I feel like when future info comes out for the movie we can post it in the movie thread, and if the responses its getting are almost entirely people that already post here then we can just move discussion here. I imagine that initially there might be some newcomers or people that lost interest in the series posting there but if they all move away then it doesn't make much sense to keep 2 threads open when one will do the job.

Also I used to play MtG a lot back in the day and have read my fair share of design articles so I feel like I can talk a bit about the card that I'm assuming you theorycrafted. I don't know too much about the creature types that Optimus would be buffing so I can't really comment on those.

Moneybags seems obnoxious in bigger formats. He's got the ability to dodge removal (you could respond to someone targeting it by removing all of his tokens and returning it to your hand) and on top of that he can easily just turn mana into damage. Also you can use him to pretty much guarantee a shitload of mana for your next turn, especially if you have counterspells. You could pay 7 mana to get 5 tokens, then pass. Your opponent burns a removal spell, you remove all tokens in response. They burn another removal spell, the mana you floated could be used to pay for a spell to save him. Then they would have to burn one more spell in order to actually kill him. Given that he's geared towards commander play I feel like the interaction of him being able to save himself isn't especially obvious which to me feels like the first time he's played in every playgroup someone would try to use a removal spell on him only to be screwed over when he finds out it doesn't work. IDK I don't think that card would be particularly fun to play against. I feel like since it's going to be an unusable card in any serious format it would be fun for him to be someone that trades control of the cards on the board. (Something like Tap: two players exchange control of permanents with total value equaling 6 or something) Just some random idea though

What's your rationale for Twilight being Red? Red is for people that usually reach hasty conclusions and often let their emotions govern their actions. For example someone like Rainbow and Starlight would make sense to be Red. Twilight sometimes does that but for the most part she's fairly well composed and uses logic and common sense to decide what to do. UW makes sense but Red feels a bit out of place. Additionally although her mechanics are probably neat, I don't feel like they really play into the themes of her character that much. She's the Princess of Friendship, I feel like her card should reflect that by having interactions with other creatures on board. She could buff other creatures, or maybe they buff her. Maybe she could convince an enemy to change sides if she's spent enough time on the board with them. Although magic is a large part of her character and it would make sense to have some sort of spell-like effect like card drawing or protection, friendship is what would set her apart from most the other blue mage cards that already exist and I think should be reflected in her mechanics.

Conkersbadfurday · May 23, 2017

This week's comic is solid. Was going to do a formal review, realized I didn't have much else to say other than "cute/10 artwork with a kind of rushed ending"

So pretty much normal, but fucking great artwork.

SigmasonicX · May 23, 2017

The cards were made as a quick reaction to the announcement of Hasbro tie in cards, so balance wasn't considered beyond gut feelings. Kind of surprised I'm getting more serious feedback than in the actual Magic thread, haha.

ShinySylvee said:
What's your rationale for Twilight being Red? Red is for people that usually reach hasty conclusions and often let their emotions govern their actions. For example someone like Rainbow and Starlight would make sense to be Red. Twilight sometimes does that but for the most part she's fairly well composed and uses logic and common sense to decide what to do. UW makes sense but Red feels a bit out of place. Additionally although her mechanics are probably neat, I don't feel like they really play into the themes of her character that much. She's the Princess of Friendship, I feel like her card should reflect that by having interactions with other creatures on board. She could buff other creatures, or maybe they buff her. Maybe she could convince an enemy to change sides if she's spent enough time on the board with them. Although magic is a large part of her character and it would make sense to have some sort of spell-like effect like card drawing or protection, friendship is what would set her apart from most the other blue mage cards that already exist and I think should be reflected in her mechanics.

First, about the mechanics, it was meant to capture the following aspects:
* Book horse likes books, demonstrated by card filtering and having a positive effect whenever you draw cards.
* Energy blasts.
* Teleportation.

Of course there are other aspects to the character, but I thought it was more appropriate to focus on the sort of things we saw in the Tirek battle.

As for color identities, I disagree that Twilight isn't red. One thing to consider is that red is the color of strong emotional connections, including love and friendship. So, her being the Princess of Friendship is even more reason to make her red. I would consider Cadance to be part red too for the same reason. Due to being a combat game, this doesn't actually appear on the cards often, but they've been sneaking it in more recently.

While Twilight is often logical and composed, her impulsive and emotional side is a core part of her character and a driving force in many of her stories. "Amending Fences" had Twilight go back to her Canterlot friends impulsively due to deep regret, multiple season 1 episodes involved her getting really worried about messing up her friendships (such as "The Ticket Master" and "Boast Busters"), and of course there are those times she snaps. Plus, the combination of red and blue represents creativity.

It is true that any well rounded character will demonstrate characteristics of every color at some point, so that shouldn't be used to consider the character's core colors. However, I do think red is definitely one of Twilight's core colors.

Speaking of which, though I haven't put as much thought into them, here are my color identities for other characters:
Rarity - blue/black/red
Rainbow Dash - red/white
Fluttershy - green/white
Applejack - red/green/white
Pinkie Pie - red
Starlight Glimmer - blue/black/red

EDIT: New image with vectors for seaponies, and also what appears to be smug pirate Fluttershy and Angel hidden in there.

ShinySylvee · May 24, 2017

Re: The new image for the movie. There's a couple other characters that are dressed up in outfits for the pictures. You can see Rainbow wearing some goggles center-left, and AJ with an eyepatch wielding a cutlass to the bottom-right of the Twilight in the center. Also near the top about 3/4ths from the left you can see some fancy looking uniform but it's not particularly clear. I'm guessing it's Rarity's ship outfit given that it is being worn by someone white.

Ok on to something that might belong in a different thread:

SigmasonicX said:
The cards were made as a quick reaction to the announcement of Hasbro tie in cards, so balance wasn't considered beyond gut feelings. Kind of surprised I'm getting more serious feedback than in the actual Magic thread, haha.

First, about the mechanics, it was meant to capture the following aspects:
* Book horse likes books, demonstrated by card filtering and having a positive effect whenever you draw cards.
* Energy blasts.
* Teleportation.

Of course there are other aspects to the character, but I thought it was more appropriate to focus on the sort of things we saw in the Tirek battle.

As for color identities, I disagree that Twilight isn't red. One thing to consider is that red is the color of strong emotional connections, including love and friendship. So, her being the Princess of Friendship is even more reason to make her red. I would consider Cadance to be part red too for the same reason. Due to being a combat game, this doesn't actually appear on the cards often, but they've been sneaking it in more recently.

While Twilight is often logical and composed, her impulsive and emotional side is a core part of her character and a driving force in many of her stories. "Amending Fences" had Twilight go back to her Canterlot friends impulsively due to deep regret, multiple season 1 episodes involved her getting really worried about messing up her friendships (such as "The Ticket Master" and "Boast Busters"), and of course there are those times she snaps. Plus, the combination of red and blue represents creativity.

It is true that any well rounded character will demonstrate characteristics of every color at some point, so that shouldn't be used to consider the character's core colors. However, I do think red is definitely one of Twilight's core colors.

Speaking of which, though I haven't put as much thought into them, here are my color identities for other characters:
Rarity - blue/black/red
Rainbow Dash - red/white
Fluttershy - green/white
Applejack - red/green/white
Pinkie Pie - red
Starlight Glimmer - blue/black/red

I understand the logic but the trouble with going Emotional Connections->Red is that if you do that then you could argue that pretty much every non-villain in MLP is Red since the show is so focused on emotional connections with people. I'm probably more conservative then most when it comes to deciding core colors for characters but aside from being emotional at times and having people she cares about she doesn't show off many of the core red ideals. She doesn't care too much about freedom in fact she's spent pretty much her entire time on the show being told by either Celestia or the Map what to do and never once tried to go against this. She doesn't really live in the moment and is actually focused on foresight to a fault at times. Although she definitely lets her emotions get the better of her (and in those situations I would consider her Red, many characters do change colors in MTG based on their situation) she usually doesn't act based on her emotions and largely makes decisions based on logic and thinking things through. Now since your example I believe was intended to be based on her fight with Tirek then absolutely it would make sense for that card to be UWR but as a whole although she definitely shows some characteristics of Red I don't feel like she shows any symptoms of the major ones (largely freedom and living in the moment) to the point where I would say it's a core part of her character. Also as an aside I don't think that Twilight is someone I would consider to be a "creative." She does come up with some interesting things from time to time but when I think of being a "creative" person I think of someone like Rarity whose whole life is dedicated to creating different clothing, or artists like DJ Pon3. Again I'm probably a lot more strict on this kind of stuff then others would be though so that's something you have to consider when I'm disagreeing with you.

For fun at work I spent my time I normally spend daydreaming about how Starlight is best pony thinking about a card for Twilight that I felt was neat and did a good job encompassing what I thought of her. It's Commander only since I felt it way easier to design her around being a general then as an actual card. Also actual numbers are just stuff I made up and as with most fan-created cards you shouldn't be taking them seriously. The big ones that I don't know about being balanced are number of creatures to trigger friendship (leaning between 2 and 3 others) and number of lesson counters to flip:

Twilight Sparkle: Student of Celestia
UW Unicorn

1/3

Tap: Friendship - (Keyword to indicate a mechanic like Metalcraft) Draw a card and discard a card unless you control 2 or more other creatures. Then put a Lesson counter on Twilight

Tap: Friendship - Another target creature gains protection from the color of your choice. If you control 2 other creatures, give them +2/+2 as well. Then put a Lesson counter on Twilight

Lesson counters stay on Twilight between zones. When Twilight is sent back to the commander zone, put a Lesson counter on her

When Twilight has 6 Lesson counters, remove them and flip her

Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship
UW Pegasus Unicorn

4/6 Flying Vigilance

Tap: Another target creature you control gains protection from a color of your choice until end of turn. All creatures besides Twilight gain +2/+2 until the end of the turn

Tap: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 back on the top of your library in any order

Tap: Target a creature. If both that creature and Twilight are still in play at the beginning of your next upkeep, gain control of that creature. Activate this ability only as a sorcery

Tap and tap 5 other creatures you control: Gain control of target creature. Activate this ability only as a sorcery

Statline is another question mark. The triggers for taking control of the creature are weird since I'm blanking on a better way to do it. Not super happy with the "white" abilities she has. It's hard to upgrade the Mother of Runes effect and not make it obnoxious because giving your entire team protection from a color often just reads "Your team is now unblockable" in casual. It also might be too complicated with the lesson tokens and having 2 upgradable abilities in her "base" form, on top of having a more complicated one that she transforms into.

For other character colors:

Rainbow: RW
AJ: GW
Rarity: W (When it comes to dressmaking, she does show some of U and R. Depending on the situation, I could see her as W, RW, and URW)
Pinkie: R
Fluttershy: G
Starlight: UW when she was a cult leader, URB when she was enacting revenge on Twilight, and UR normally.

SigmasonicX · May 24, 2017

Really, I think this comes down to a disagreement about how important red is to the characters. It is true that under my guidelines, most of the characters would have red, but I don't see that as a problem. The show is about friendship, after all. I'm not a big fan of saying that a character has these colors in this situation, and these colors in this other situation, specifically because, like I mentioned, any well rounded character will demonstrate every color at some point. You mention times characters change colors in the actual game, but that's usually reserved for some big breakthrough, not a one-off instance.

Your color identities for the other characters seem reasonable enough, but I don't agree that Rarity is white. In particular, I believe that she actually demonstrates many qualities of black. Compare her to a recent monoblack protagonist in Magic from the Kaladesh block, Yahenni.

In pony fan stuff, this video adds a song to "Rock Solid Friendship". I'd like it more if it was actually just straightforwardly doing that instead of adding a bunch of side gags, but it's still fun.

And in thread upkeep news, I finally created a character guide section for Starlight.

If everyone thinks it looks fine, I'll add it to the OP.

Also, in super minor news, in my episode roundups, there are now spaces between the images. This makes it easier for me to move stuff around while editing, since I now know more quickly when one image starts and ends, but I realized that people were probably having a hard time quoting individual images before, so this should help with that too.

Owlowiscious · May 24, 2017

Hoot.

SigmasonicX · May 24, 2017

Owlowiscious said:
Hoot.

Glad to see you back and sad to see you go, I suppose. For what it's worth, people in this thread have been pretty good about hiding Canadian episode spoilers, and if you've actually been keeping up with those, then you have greater granularity about what you want to see.

I don't suppose you could give feedback about the episodes you watched?

Owlowiscious · May 24, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
Glad to see you back and sad to see you go, I suppose. For what it's worth, people in this thread have been pretty good about hiding Canadian episode spoilers, and if you've actually been keeping up with those, then you have greater granularity about what you want to see.

OvO

I don't suppose you could give feedback about the episodes you watched?

Who?

Fat4all · May 25, 2017

SigmasonicX · May 25, 2017

^ I don't get it.

Ponies appear on Jeopardy! The question is: Every bro knows Twilight Sparkle and Pinkie Pie are characters in this "Friendship is Magic" animated series. Definitely one of those questions you could guess from context. Video

Friendship is Magic #54
This is the first comic to explicitly tie into an episode of the show, so let's see how that goes.

In the first three pages, Fosgitt just copy and pasted the ball of animals. This probably wouldn't have been as obvious if it wasn't for the fact that the still image implied that the animals were moving around a lot, and especially if on the third page, there weren't two panels right after each other that showed the ball of animals.

Besides that, the art was pretty good, both cute and kinetic usually, though there were oddly static scenes too. That said, I'm not sure how Fosgitt decides what backgrounds to use, but it definitely felt like there were too many white or too-simple backgrounds. It was nice seeing Angel gather up the other pets, as a callback to that previous comic where they teamed up against a kelpie, and then got the CMC as a callback to "Just for Sidekicks". That said, part of why the previous pets comic was clever was because it didn't have dialogue, and used pictures in speech balloons. This also does that... but it uses pictures with text on them, which kind of defeats the point.

Silver Quill's review points out that the preview of this comic was meant to come out right before "Fluttershy Leans In" aired, acting as a preview for that episode too. The fact that Canada aired it early of course meant that most people didn't make that connection. Comic #55 ties into "Not Asking For Trouble" and it comes out in June, the same month as that episode airs, so I expect a similar thing was meant to happen there. The other comics don't tie in as neatly, with #57 coming out in August, well after "Discordant Harmony" airs even in the US. Silver Quill also points out other examples of repeated art that I hadn't noticed.

He points out that bringing the Crusaders in largely diminishes Angel's role in the story, and I can't really argue that. In the end, he doesn't recommend the issue. I thought it was alright, but yeah, it adds nothing to "Fluttershy Leans In" and probably isn't worth the full price.

Conkersbadfurday said:
This week's comic is solid. Was going to do a formal review, realized I didn't have much else to say other than "cute/10 artwork with a kind of rushed ending"

So pretty much normal, but fucking great artwork.

I don't see what was rushed about the ending. Plenty of time was given over to Angel and the others calming the animals.

jorgejjvr · May 25, 2017

Adults watch my little pony?

SigmasonicX · May 25, 2017

jorgejjvr said:
Adults watch my little pony?

Absolutely not! We're all just being ironic here in this thread.

(Though if you're seriously asking, we'd be happy to talk about it)

Fat4all · May 25, 2017

Adults only watch My Little Pony and The Wire

Trigonometrize. · May 25, 2017

jorgejjvr said:
Adults watch my little pony?

Only with our daughters! And after they fall asleep, we make sure to instantly change the channel... and happen to pull up Neogaf to discuss!

It's a solid show.

PaulloDEC · May 25, 2017

jorgejjvr said:
Adults watch my little pony?

Define "adults".

Fat4all · May 25, 2017

PaulloDEC said:
Define "adults".

non-fillies

UberTag · May 25, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
And in thread upkeep news, I finally created a character guide section for Starlight.

If everyone thinks it looks fine, I'll add it to the OP.

Looks first-rate to me... and it's long overdue.

PaulloDEC · May 25, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
And in thread upkeep news, I finally created a character guide section for Starlight.

If everyone thinks it looks fine, I'll add it to the OP.

Thumbs up.

Fat4all said:
non-fillies

Thanks for putting it in terms I would understand.

Fat4all · May 25, 2017

PaulloDEC said:
Thanks for putting it in terms I would understand.

sometimes you need your cutie mark before you go to Diamond Tiara's quinceañera

i understand these things

Rhomega Beta · May 25, 2017

Fat4all said:
non-fillies

Colts then.

ShinySylvee · May 26, 2017

Surprised no one else has reported this yet but apparently Treehouse (the Canadian broadcasting company airing 2 episodes a week and is currently 4 weeks ahead of then normal schedule) is airing reruns of season 7 episodes 1 and 2 this weekend instead of anything new. Next week they will be rebroadcasting episodes 3 and 4. Whether this is just for the next 2 weeks or that this signifies the end of Treehouse broadcasting things early and from here on out it will just be everyone airing the episodes the same week as in America is yet to be seen but for this weekend at least there will be no new episodes aside from the final EQG special Mirror Magic which will be broadcast in polish as usual.

On mobile right now so here's a direct link to the source: https://www.equestriadaily.com/2017/05/rumor-treehouse-re-airing-mlp-season-7.html?m=1

DrForester · May 26, 2017

Worth noting that the Treehouse site is still listing new episodes.

SigmasonicX · May 26, 2017

I figured it would happen this way, though it happened a bit earlier than I expected. It just didn't make much sense for so many episodes to be ready to air, so I assumed Treehouse was just scheduling episodes regardless of if they were ready or not. Thus, when they reached the actual limit, they would quickly swap in reruns, which is what's happening.

If they don't suddenly break away from reruns to air new episodes, then Canadian airings will catch up to US airings again with episode 15, "Triple Threat", airing the same day in both the US and Canada. Then, Canada will air episode 16, "Campfire Tales" a week early compared to the US. Thus, everyone in this thread will finally be in sync with episode discussion for episodes 12-15, just four episodes.

It's unfortunate for you guys who watched ahead that you are forced to have a four week break (or five, depending on how you count it), but I hope you continue to participate in US episode discussion. Like I suggested earlier, I'll perhaps set up another attempt at season 6 episode guide voting next week.

DrForester said:
Worth noting that the Treehouse site is still listing new episodes.

On the other hand, the reruns are appearing on Zap2It and actual TV guides. Regardless, I'm not going to update the Canadian schedule in the OP until it's confirmed that they're showing reruns.

In more positive news, season 8 confirmed! It will start in spring 2018, and it will have 26 episodes. I propose the next OT subtitle to be "This ride never ends".

Also, I was planning all day to write a big post seriously addressing jorgejjvr's question, explaining how I got into the show and why I still watch it, but (1) it's better to let this news breathe a bit, and (2) effort. Maybe during the long weekend.

EDIT: Also, added Starlight to the character guide in the OP.

ShinySylvee · May 26, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
I figured it would happen this way, though it happened a bit earlier than I expected. It just didn't make much sense for so many episodes to be ready to air, so I assumed Treehouse was just scheduling episodes regardless of if they were ready or not. Thus, when they reached the actual limit, they would quickly swap in reruns, which is what's happening.

If they don't suddenly break away from reruns to air new episodes, then Canadian airings will catch up to US airings again with episode 15, "Triple Threat", airing the same day in both the US and Canada. Then, Canada will air episode 16, "Campfire Tales" a week early compared to the US. Thus, everyone in this thread will finally be in sync with episode discussion for episodes 12-15, just four episodes.

It's unfortunate for you guys who watched ahead that you are forced to have a four week break (or five, depending on how you count it), but I hope you continue to participate in US episode discussion. Like I suggested earlier, I'll perhaps set up another attempt at season 6 episode guide voting next week.

On the other hand, the reruns are appearing on Zap2It and actual TV guides. Regardless, I'm not going to update the Canadian schedule in the OP until it's confirmed that they're showing reruns.

In more positive news

Also, I was planning all day to write a big post seriously addressing jorgejjvr's question, explaining how I got into the show and why I still watch it, but (1) it's better to let this news breathe a bit, and (2) effort. Maybe during the long weekend.

EDIT: Also, added Starlight to the character guide in the OP.

Depending on the situation there were 2 different things that were inevitably going to prevent Treehouse from continuing to air episodes:

1. Eventually they were going to get to episodes that weren't ready to be aired yet and were going to have to wait. Episodes take around a year from initial concepts to being fully produced to make and a massive chunk of the episodes that haven't aired yet aren't finished.

2. They were going to reach the episodes that DHX had sent them before the season started and they began airing two episodes a weekend. Theoretically if DHX doesn't want Treehouse to be massively ahead of the US broadcast schedule then they can just stop sending the episodes to Treehouse early and only give them right before they want them to air them. What makes this strategy less likely is that the show has had a massive history of stuff getting shown early in other countries and DHX still hasn't apparently done enough steps to make sure it doesn't keep happening. Last year to my knowledge the season 6 finale and Legend of Everfree were shown earlier in other countries, and this year in addition to Treehouse we have the Polish dub showing the episodes before we even know when they're going to be released in English. At this point it seems fairly likely that DHX just doesn't actually care if people show stuff earlier then the US broadcast.

Although I'm guessing the guy you would be responding to already left I think I've got an idea that might help keep interest up during the weeks that there's no new episodes for the people that have been keeping up with the early broadcasts. During the weekends we could present people with a prompt to respond to relating to the show. Say for example: "what got you into the show and why do you still watch it?" I can think of a lot of prompts off the top of my head that could lead to some decent discussion. Also if they do end up getting a lid on the broadcasting schedule for Canada we'll also have the summer hiatus that we could use this for as well.

And yeah although it feels really early that we're hearing info on season 8 already no surprises that it's a full season. As I've said before the movie coming out in my mind at least insures that the show will go on until season 9 unless something catastrophic happens and the only season that wasn't 26 episodes was season 3 which was shortened to get enough episodes to syndicate the show.

Dang0 · May 26, 2017

What I find interesting in the season 8 poster is the image of Tartarus. Return of Tirek perhaps, or maybe the ponies have to go into tartarus for some reason.

Fat4all · May 26, 2017

Dang0 said:
What I find interesting in the season 8 poster is the image of Tartarus. Return of Tirek perhaps, or maybe the ponies have to go into tartarus for some reason.

new friend to intervention

wine is p good in a can

PaulloDEC · May 26, 2017

Dang0 said:
What I find interesting in the season 8 poster is the image of Tartarus. Return of Tirek perhaps, or maybe the ponies have to go into tartarus for some reason.

Huh, I saw the image earlier and completely failed to notice where it was. That is interesting.

Fat4all said:
new friend to intervention

wine is p good in a can

SigmasonicX · May 26, 2017

ShinySylvee said:
Although I'm guessing the guy you would be responding to already left I think I've got an idea that might help keep interest up during the weeks that there's no new episodes for the people that have been keeping up with the early broadcasts. During the weekends we could present people with a prompt to respond to relating to the show. Say for example: "what got you into the show and why do you still watch it?" I can think of a lot of prompts off the top of my head that could lead to some decent discussion. Also if they do end up getting a lid on the broadcasting schedule for Canada we'll also have the summer hiatus that we could use this for as well.

Yeah, I guess it does make sense to have discussion prompts each week while "old" episodes air. As for jorgejjvr, he probably is long gone and wasn't looking for a serious answer anyway, but I was thinking that we hadn't actually talked about that subject in a while.

Dang0 said:
What I find interesting in the season 8 poster is the image of Tartarus. Return of Tirek perhaps, or maybe the ponies have to go into tartarus for some reason.

I doubt there's much meaning to it, but it's enough reason to put "Scorpan appears" on my season 8 bingo card.

Speaking of which, it looks like Mike Vogel is returning as a writer.

Ogodei · May 26, 2017

PaulloDEC said:
Huh, I saw the image earlier and completely failed to notice where it was. That is interesting.

Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 was the first episode where i thought they sent the wrong message: the Apple Family's system was inefficient and the Flim-Flam Brothers weren't trying to scam them, at least not until they proposed an unfair split of the profits (and even then, they were providing the labor-saving machinery).

It was one of those episodes that fills your mind full of fuck with how economics works in Equestria anyway. Around that time I entertained writing a fanfic called "Economics is Magic" wherein Twilight discovers that the economy of Equestria is literally controlled by magic: Celestia manages the money supply by making Bit-coins from a magic gold (like Leprechaun gold in Harry Potter) which removes itself from circulation after too long of a time.

DrForester · May 26, 2017

Ogodei said:
Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 was the first episode where i thought they sent the wrong message: the Apple Family's system was inefficient and the Flim-Flam Brothers weren't trying to scam them, at least not until they proposed an unfair split of the profits (and even then, they were providing the labor-saving machinery).

It was one of those episodes that fills your mind full of fuck with how economics works in Equestria anyway. Around that time I entertained writing a fanfic called "Economics is Magic" wherein Twilight discovers that the economy of Equestria is literally controlled by magic: Celestia manages the money supply by making Bit-coins from a magic gold (like Leprechaun gold in Harry Potter) which removes itself from circulation after too long of a time.

I didn't like how Flim and Flam would later be turned into con-men in later appearances. In SSCS6000, they have a machine that does exactly what they advertise. Makes cider so good even Granny Smith is impressed. They're ruthless, sure, but they didn't lie to anyone.

DemWalls · May 26, 2017

Oh yeah, that episode. Proof that Mitch is not unfailing. Found it way too childish in parts.

Trigonometrize. · May 26, 2017

Feeling Pinkie Keen seems like the first episode to send a wrong/weird message. But yes, SSCS is also bad and worse overall.

As for the Tartarus on the poster, I'm willing to bet someone just grabbed the first background from the show that struck them as looking cool.

ShinySylvee · May 26, 2017

Couple things. First, funnily enough right after I complain that we don't know when the EQG episodes are airing in English we get some dates for them. They will be showing June 24th-July 8th, which conveniently coincides with the Mid-season hiatus that is now confirmed to be happening. It will be after the episode "Not Asking for Trouble." (Weird because the episode before it is Royal Problem and the episode after is the AJ's parents one which feel like would more fitting mid-season finales but whatever)

Also there was a teaser for the polish release of the final EQG episode Mirror Magic. Before people want to jump the gun and decry it as the worst thing ever (not that this warning is going to stop people from doing just that) it's worth mentioning that people had similar fears with the episode A Royal Problem and for the most part people thought that episode handled things very well so maybe you should actually watch the episode before instantly deciding it's shit.

Info on English broadcast of EQG episodes
Midseason finale and hiatus confirmed
Polish teaser for episode. (Turn CC on for english subtitles)

DrForester · May 26, 2017

ShinySylvee said:
Polish teaser for episode. (Turn CC on for english subtitles)

I really hope those subtitles are translated wrong. They're not really going to make it so the writers pet now has to save Sunset and the EQG characters, right? They're not that desperate to prop up Pony-Wesley that they're going to make everyone else look weak again, right?

SigmasonicX · May 26, 2017

I enjoy "SSCS6K" well enough, but a lot of the episode just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Everything about Flim and Flam, from their names to their song to how everyone treats them, drives the point that they're flimflam artists. But then they don't actually have a clear con going on. They show up with a machine that actually does what they promised, ???, then they are chased away having been exposed as frauds. When they return in season 4, they are treated as con men and no one acts otherwise. It would be one thing if a lot of the show crew had changed by that point, but I'm pretty sure the only person of relevance who left between the two episodes was Lauren Faust, who likely had little to do with the first episode anyway.

I have to imagine something got mixed up in the writing stage, that Flim and Flam were supposed to be seedier than they actually came off as.

Incidentally, that episode sticks out as the moment where I realized the fandom just wasn't going to be as active as it was during season 1. There were background characters that people were pointing out but just weren't taking off like those before, particularly Thora (mare with a hammer cutie mark). But perhaps more shocking... for weeks there was little art of the scene from the beginning of the episode with Rainbow and Fluttershy, despite every discussion thread for that episode I read mentioning that it was sure to get a lot of art.

That makes me think, the fandom probably is better about making fan art for particular episodes now than it was during season 2 and maybe even season 1. There was more pony art, but it was more general or meme based, with not so much about moments of particular episodes, excluding big ones like "A Canterlot Wedding". Actually, is even that true? Could there be more art produced in general now? I might write more about this...

EDIT: Damn, the US has a mid-season break too? And at the same episode? So much for everyone in the thread being on the same page. It might be best to hold off on season 6 voting until we all have a break, then.

DemWalls · May 26, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
Actually, is even that true? Could there be more art produced in general now? I might write more about this...

I don't know if there's more art now, but certainly the average quality is higher. You observed this as much when discussing JohnJoseco's latest. I honestly prefer having (maybe) fewer but better artists.

PaulloDEC · May 26, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
Speaking of which, it looks like Mike Vogel is returning as a writer.

Aww yiss.

Ogodei said:
Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 was the first episode where i thought they sent the wrong message: the Apple Family's system was inefficient and the Flim-Flam Brothers weren't trying to scam them, at least not until they proposed an unfair split of the profits (and even then, they were providing the labor-saving machinery).

I think that while the episode might've initially seemed to be about method or efficiency, what it was really about was motivation. The Apple Family are motivated by dedication to their craft, and a desire to deliver quality. Flim and Flam are motivated by greed, and a desire for wealth at the expense of everything else. Their machine might've been good, but allowing them to be part of the process would've meant compromising a system that valued quality above all else.

DrForester said:
I didn't like how Flim and Flam would later be turned into con-men in later appearances. In SSCS6000, they have a machine that does exactly what they advertise. Makes cider so good even Granny Smith is impressed. They're ruthless, sure, but they didn't lie to anyone.

I think ultimately the transformation from "compromise to get rich" to "cheat to get rich" made a funny kind of sense. It wasn't that they couldn't do good work; it was about their character, and the fact that when the chips were down they didn't really care what they had to sacrifice to line their pockets.

Trigonometrize. said:
Feeling Pinkie Keen seems like the first episode to send a wrong/weird message. But yes, SSCS is also bad and worse overall.

Pinkie Keen was definitely the first big moral/message goof for me.

DrForester · May 27, 2017

ShinySylvee said:
Also there was a teaser for the polish release of the final EQG episode Mirror Magic. Before people want to jump the gun and decry it as the worst thing ever (not that this warning is going to stop people from doing just that) it's worth mentioning that people had similar fears with the episode A Royal Problem and for the most part people thought that episode handled things very well so maybe you should actually watch the episode before instantly deciding it's shit.

It kind of feeds into the problem that Starlight has to be forced into the hero slot. We get to spend so little time in the EQG universe, do we really need one of those few times being that Starlgiht has to save Sunset?

And I might as well put this down. I've re-watched Royal Problem a few times, because I really want to like it. And, to be fair, I have found some good stuff in it, but I still have some big problems with it. One of them being with Starlight's characterization.

For the dislikes, it all basically it boils down to them going overboard with Celestia and Luna's conflict, and doing a total 180 on Starlight's development.

1. Celestia and Luna. The initial set up of the episode is that Celestia and Luna are swamped and don't have time to appreciate the little things that each are doing for the other. Celestia making Luna food after a hard night's work, and Luna putting up Lavender to help calm Celestia as she heads back to her quarters at the end of a long day. That works. These two aren't and shouldn't be portrayed as perfect. And little things like not being appreciated can get under the skin.

But then they escalate it into the two being totally ignorant of what the other does during the day/night. As in, after thousands of years, they never took a day to watch the other. It also implies Celestia did absolutely nothing to help reintegrate Luna into society. And I know the writers aren't trying to portray her as being cruel like that. But really, Celestia never went with Luna on some dream runs? We know from this episode that she could tag along to provide moral support. Heck, if we just watch the end of "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep" we know the whole "no one but me has power in the dream realm" is bull. She might be the only one to enter dreams, but she sure as heck can take others with her. Even the recent Celestia and Luna comic had her tagging along to fight monsters in the dreamscape. And Celestia never brought Luna around with her for a few days to show her how things have changed regarding their duties? I call bull on that. The escalation brought it from a cute tiff between sisters, to "man, these two are idiots".

2. Regarding Starlight. Starlight has gone from "your evil for forcing your will onto others with magic" to "You're awesome for forcing your will onto others with magic". Once again, she violates someone without their permission. I said before that maybe the episode could have had Celestia and Luna call Starlight to Canterlot to do the swap, so they could get a different perspective. But even going less far than that, just have her ask. Instead of Celestia and Luna having a tantrum right there, have Starlight suggest her plan, and have them agree, thinking it a creative solution. It would have had Starlight show she's actually learned something. Show that she actually has some respect for others. And it would have shown Celestia and Luna as much more competent, by having the problem presented to them, them seeing their is a problem, and agreeing to try out a solution.

I don't think it would have changed how the rest of the episode went. Much of Starlight's anxiety came from Twilight freaking out, and even with Celestia and Luna agreeing, I think Twilight freaking out would still be totally in character for her, and Starlight would again freak out about if she was right or not. Starlight was starting to grow on me this season. I liked her in "All Bottled Up" and in "Rock Solid Friendship", but this episode just ruined her for me, because she still doesn't respect anything that isn't making her happy. If something's wrong, if someone isn't acting like she thinks they should, she zaps them. And I think it's pretty bad she's being praised for it.

I would be like in Steven Universe if Jasper was suddenly praised for forcing people into fusions because it would be a great experience for them.

As is, I think the episode does all three of them a disservice.

Things I liked in on the rewatch. Even though the IDW comic did it a billion times better, Luna doing Celestia-Duty is a lot of fun. Good facial expressions, good humor. Likewise, Celestia doing the dream thing was fun. Seeing her actually fight a villain (two of them) and win was certainly a change from how she's usually portrayed. I wish she had been a bit more take-charge of the situation, but I still think the scene was a good one. I also like that we do see Celestia and Luna do little things for each other.

In the end, I don't hate the episode. I don't even think it's the worst of the season (hello, Honest Apple), but I still find it to be a let down. The show has really dropped the ball on showing these two interact. And I think that's one of the reasons I was so hyped for something portraying them more strongly than this episode did.

Speaking of the IDW comic, until they say otherwise, I am going to assume the two writers read the comic at some point. The episode and the Luna Micro end on a reverse of the same joke. Celestia telling Luna to have a nice night after Luna had a busy day, and Luna telling Celestia to have a good day after Celestia had a busy night. Too coincidental for me.

SigmasonicX · May 27, 2017

Pinkie Pie Says Goodnight - Did'ja View - Thanks to Canada going into reruns, Pinkie experiences a temporal reversal.

PaulloDEC said:
Aww yiss.

Let us reflect how we got to the point where a former vice president of Hasbro Studios is one of the most anticipated writers.

Pinkie Keen was definitely the first big moral/message goof for me.

The big two of messed up morals are "Feeling Pinkie Keen" and "The Mysterious Mare Do Well". I don't think "Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000" particularly had a problem with its moral, at least in the same way as those two.

DemWalls said:
I don't know if there's more art now, but certainly the average quality is higher. You observed this as much when discussing JohnJoseco's latest. I honestly prefer having (maybe) fewer but better artists.

You know, that makes me think... Off to see Derpibooru's images for "SSCS6K".
* 452 images total, including screenshots? Lower than I expected.
* Oh hey, Glancojusticar! Forgot about that guy. He was one of those people that ragequit with Princess Twilight and stopped drawing pony stuff in 2013. It's a shame, I really liked his humanizations. Here's his second art collection for the episode. The first one is linked in the description, but it has a humanized version of that Fluttershy scene from the start of the episode (not NSFW, but still).
* Oh hey, Megasweet! Not a fan of him actually. Something I'm interested in discussing more (perhaps later this weekend) is how a huge portion of popular fan content in the early years of the fandom came almost exclusively from artists that barely kept their SFW and NSFW stuff apart on a good day, and Megasweet was one of the worst artists about this. Plus his subject matter often got... let's say 4chanish, from what I remember. Derpibooru makes it hard to tell when his actual most recent art was, since edits and colorized edits are still included under that artist, and those are still done with some frequency, but I believe he stopped making pony art about 4 years ago.
* Another common artist back then that no longer makes stuff is emmy (linking because they only have SFW art). I know little about the artist themselves, but I liked their style a lot. What they made for this episode.
* Comic from CrimsonBugEye. A bit dark, but the description says they're all fine, so that's good. He has a good art style, but a ton of his art is NSFW. Surprisingly, this artist has made some recentish stuff for season 6, though that's still eight months without new pony art. It doesn't look like he quit the fandom, so he's probably just lacking motivation or time to draw.
* Actually looking at everything made anytime close to when the episode was aired (liberally counting anything made before November 2012, or what Derpibooru labels as five years ago), an astonishingly low amount of stuff was uploaded in that time period for this episode, and most of it is screencaps, gifs, and dumb meme edits. There's maybe 15 half decent pieces of art and that includes comics. And not much more actually new art was made after that.

Yeesh, I don't even have to compare it to "Viva Las Pegasus" like I was planning to. There's an obvious difference in the amount of art. Sure, apparently the Ponibooru -> Derpibooru transfer was happening around this time, but art would have been given a higher priority to transfer over.

Might do this for other episodes at some point. Another thing I'd be interested in doing is a group reread. Reread of what? These threads! Maybe every once in a while we could read about a week's worth of old posts from the season OTs and the Community thread, around the airing of an episode or another significant fandom event, and react to that. Or rather, you guys could react to my reactions, as is more likely to happen, and I'm fine with that. I'd prefer jumping around as opposed to just going from the beginning of PonyGAF. Plus reading through everything in order would take forever and nobody has time for that, and I'd definitely get bored before getting to the parts I was actually interested in reading. These posts would be in the Community thread instead of here, of course.

Double Donut · May 27, 2017

SigmasonicX said:
In more positive news, season 8 confirmed! It will start in spring 2018, and it will have 26 episodes. I propose the next OT subtitle to be "This ride never ends".

I can't believe I'll have been watching this show for seven years when season 8 rolls around. Back around season 2, some friends and I were discussing when we think the show will end, and my guess was that we'll be cut off at season 5. Here we are approaching number 8. Seems like a guarantee now that we'll hit the big 10.

God I love this show. Excited for whatever crazy Tartarus adventures await.

ShinySylvee · May 27, 2017

DrForester said:
It kind of feeds into the problem that Starlight has to be forced into the hero slot. We get to spend so little time in the EQG universe, do we really need one of those few times being that Starlgiht has to save Sunset?

And I might as well put this down. I've re-watched Royal Problem a few times, because I really want to like it. And, to be fair, I have found some good stuff in it, but I still have some big problems with it. One of them being with Starlight's characterization.

For the dislikes, it all basically it boils down to them going overboard with Celestia and Luna's conflict, and doing a total 180 on Starlight's development.

1. Celestia and Luna. The initial set up of the episode is that Celestia and Luna are swamped and don't have time to appreciate the little things that each are doing for the other. Celestia making Luna food after a hard night's work, and Luna putting up Lavender to help calm Celestia as she heads back to her quarters at the end of a long day. That works. These two aren't and shouldn't be portrayed as perfect. And little things like not being appreciated can get under the skin.

But then they escalate it into the two being totally ignorant of what the other does during the day/night. As in, after thousands of years, they never took a day to watch the other. It also implies Celestia did absolutely nothing to help reintegrate Luna into society. And I know the writers aren't trying to portray her as being cruel like that. But really, Celestia never went with Luna on some dream runs? We know from this episode that she could tag along to provide moral support. Heck, if we just watch the end of "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep" we know the whole "no one but me has power in the dream realm" is bull. She might be the only one to enter dreams, but she sure as heck can take others with her. Even the recent Celestia and Luna comic had her tagging along to fight monsters in the dreamscape. And Celestia never brought Luna around with her for a few days to show her how things have changed regarding their duties? I call bull on that. The escalation brought it from a cute tiff between sisters, to "man, these two are idiots".

2. Regarding Starlight. Starlight has gone from "your evil for forcing your will onto others with magic" to "You're awesome for forcing your will onto others with magic". Once again, she violates someone without their permission. I said before that maybe the episode could have had Celestia and Luna call Starlight to Canterlot to do the swap, so they could get a different perspective. But even going less far than that, just have her ask. Instead of Celestia and Luna having a tantrum right there, have Starlight suggest her plan, and have them agree, thinking it a creative solution. It would have had Starlight show she's actually learned something. Show that she actually has some respect for others. And it would have shown Celestia and Luna as much more competent, by having the problem presented to them, them seeing their is a problem, and agreeing to try out a solution.

I don't think it would have changed how the rest of the episode went. Much of Starlight's anxiety came from Twilight freaking out, and even with Celestia and Luna agreeing, I think Twilight freaking out would still be totally in character for her, and Starlight would again freak out about if she was right or not. Starlight was starting to grow on me this season. I liked her in "All Bottled Up" and in "Rock Solid Friendship", but this episode just ruined her for me, because she still doesn't respect anything that isn't making her happy. If something's wrong, if someone isn't acting like she thinks they should, she zaps them. And I think it's pretty bad she's being praised for it.

I would be like in Steven Universe if Jasper was suddenly praised for forcing people into fusions because it would be a great experience for them.

As is, I think the episode does all three of them a disservice.

Things I liked in on the rewatch. Even though the IDW comic did it a billion times better, Luna doing Celestia-Duty is a lot of fun. Good facial expressions, good humor. Likewise, Celestia doing the dream thing was fun. Seeing her actually fight a villain (two of them) and win was certainly a change from how she's usually portrayed. I wish she had been a bit more take-charge of the situation, but I still think the scene was a good one. I also like that we do see Celestia and Luna do little things for each other.

In the end, I don't hate the episode. I don't even think it's the worst of the season (hello, Honest Apple), but I still find it to be a let down. The show has really dropped the ball on showing these two interact. And I think that's one of the reasons I was so hyped for something portraying them more strongly than this episode did.

Speaking of the IDW comic, until they say otherwise, I am going to assume the two writers read the comic at some point. The episode and the Luna Micro end on a reverse of the same joke. Celestia telling Luna to have a nice night after Luna had a busy day, and Luna telling Celestia to have a good day after Celestia had a busy night. Too coincidental for me.

Alright, finally got some time to respond to this. Just to let you know that this is exactly the kind of response that I enjoy seeing. I fully admit I got a little heated earlier today in my responses (on another website for those trying to follow along) but I just want to clarify that my issues are less based around your opinions and how you usually end up stating them. For the most part from my perspective you talk in a fairly matter-of-facty way that doesn't leave much room for people to disagree with you. Also you usually post fairly short and generalized statements and don't often provide significant evidence which for me at least forces me to guess what you're basing your statements on and that makes it really easy to misrepresent what you're trying to say. This post doesn't have either of those problems which makes it a lot more helpful for discussion.

First off I'll admit that my post on Mirror Magic was a bit on the edgy sarcasm side but the point I was trying to make is that you should wait before seeing the episode before passing final judgement on it, not that it isn't something to be concerned about. Although I would disagree that it's a major problem that has affected the show (the only episode where I feel she was put on a pedestal over the Mane 6 was To Where and Back Again and even then she shared that pedestal with 3 other people, who for some reason never seem to get any blame for overshadowing the Mane 6) I can understand why it would be, and generally speaking I would be among the first to call out if Starlight really was doing this kind of thing largely because I think that she's been a great character in part because she's largely been avoiding that in my opinion. I was right there with you in the Accord comic arc complaining about Starlight's portrayal there, although with a completely different tone I will admit. And yeah, that premise sounds like it might be setting up "Starlight saves the day while everyone else is useless" but as I said before I'm waiting to pass judgement until I actually see it, as I would encourage everyone to do, if for no other reason then it helps you avoid looking bad if you end up liking something you were absolutely certain was going to be terrible.

As for the episode:

I think that I were Luna and Celestia asked to tag along with visiting dreams I would be extremely insulted. Helping people in their dreams is portrayed in this episode as being Luna's major responsibility as Princess of the Night and it's her special talent. (Along with other night-related things) Celestia asking to tag along to help her with moral support in her dream runs would indicate that Celestia didn't think that Luna could do her primary job on her own and needed the help of someone that has no actual power in the dream realm to fulfill it. Furthermore aside from this specific situation where Celestia's mark was swapped with Luna's I don't see why Celestia would need to know how the dream realm worked because as stated before that's purely Luna's domain and trying to learn how to do it would indicate that she didn't think Luna was capable of handling it herself. Also even if Celestia did show Luna what she did (and it wasn't specified whether she did or not) I don't think that would be adequate preparation for what it's actually like to have Celestia's job. A lot of Luna's struggles were centered around not being used to having to remain composed for such an extended period of time without any time to herself to think or relax. Celestia's job is something that would be hard to fully appreciate how tough it actually is without just literally filling in for her in a day. (And to be honest I just stumbled upon the realization that is literally the plot of this episode as I was writing that sentence) And to that extent even if Celestia DID tag along with Luna and observe her doing her job she wouldn't really encounter what it's like to do the job by herself with no one for emotional support. As I said before, they would have to literally do the exact same thing as the other's normal job in order to fully appreciate what their sister has to do on a daily basis, which is what happens in the episode.

Overall I can understand why you wound be annoyed that even after the Nightmare Moon debacle the two sisters still don't completely get along, which to a degree diminishes those events by having them essentially happen again. It doesn't bother me personally as I'm the type of person that's willing to overlook some inconsistencies or unflattering presentations of a character if I think the result of that is interesting and worth it, which I think it absolutely was in this episode. It might have made more sense if Celestia and Luna got along well after their reunion, but I think they sold this storyline of them still having issues fairly well and I didn't feel like it diminished their characters very much in terms of not working through their previous issues. I think it's reasonable to be disappointed that their dynamic wasn't what you were expecting but at the same time you at some point have to look at what you ended up getting at face value, not on what it could have been. (And I'm with you there, I'll fully admit that I often have a hard time doing this)

On to Starlight, I do 100% agree that there's some mixed signals that in this episode they're showing her "unconventional" solutions to problems as being a positive trait here while at the same time having her just randomly do the spell without talking things through with the princesses first. At the very least I think a line or two at the end of the episode where the Princesses joke that she should have maybe told them what she was doing before doing it would have helped a bit by making this a learning experience for Starlight. However I think the decision for Starlight to act without informing the princesses first was largely make for dramatic effect rather then for character motivation purposes. And to be fair I think that it largely succeeds in making the episode at the very least more exciting, although I can totally understand not wanting to see it play out that way. There were other ways that the scenario could have played out, but with limited time and other factors all of the other options had their own shortcomings as well. Aside from again throwing in a line or two to tell Starlight that she should have forewarned Celestia and Luna I don't think there's anything that wouldn't have had other drawbacks that could have made things worse for the overall enjoyment of the episode.
Not saying what we got was the best thing we could have but it's worth considering that there's other issues with having it play out a different way.

Kinda ran out of steam here and got sidetracked. I'm tired anyway so I'm calling it here for now

DrForester · May 27, 2017

ShinySylvee said:
Alright, finally got some time to respond to this. Just to let you know that this is exactly the kind of response that I enjoy seeing. I fully admit I got a little heated earlier today in my responses (on another website for those trying to follow along) but I just want to clarify that my issues are less based around your opinions and how you usually end up stating them. For the most part from my perspective you talk in a fairly matter-of-facty way that doesn't leave much room for people to disagree with you. Also you usually post fairly short and generalized statements and don't often provide significant evidence which for me at least forces me to guess what you're basing your statements on and that makes it really easy to misrepresent what you're trying to say. This post doesn't have either of those problems which makes it a lot more helpful for discussion.

First off I'll admit that my post on Mirror Magic was a bit on the edgy sarcasm side but the point I was trying to make is that you should wait before seeing the episode before passing final judgement on it, not that it isn't something to be concerned about. Although I would disagree that it's a major problem that has affected the show (the only episode where I feel she was put on a pedestal over the Mane 6 was To Where and Back Again and even then she shared that pedestal with 3 other people, who for some reason never seem to get any blame for overshadowing the Mane 6) I can understand why it would be, and generally speaking I would be among the first to call out if Starlight really was doing this kind of thing largely because I think that she's been a great character in part because she's largely been avoiding that in my opinion. I was right there with you in the Accord comic arc complaining about Starlight's portrayal there, although with a completely different tone I will admit. And yeah, that premise sounds like it might be setting up "Starlight saves the day while everyone else is useless" but as I said before I'm waiting to pass judgement until I actually see it, as I would encourage everyone to do, if for no other reason then it helps you avoid looking bad if you end up liking something you were absolutely certain was going to be terrible.

As for the episode:

I think that I were Luna and Celestia asked to tag along with visiting dreams I would be extremely insulted. Helping people in their dreams is portrayed in this episode as being Luna's major responsibility as Princess of the Night and it's her special talent. (Along with other night-related things) Celestia asking to tag along to help her with moral support in her dream runs would indicate that Celestia didn't think that Luna could do her primary job on her own and needed the help of someone that has no actual power in the dream realm to fulfill it. Furthermore aside from this specific situation where Celestia's mark was swapped with Luna's I don't see why Celestia would need to know how the dream realm worked because as stated before that's purely Luna's domain and trying to learn how to do it would indicate that she didn't think Luna was capable of handling it herself. Also even if Celestia did show Luna what she did (and it wasn't specified whether she did or not) I don't think that would be adequate preparation for what it's actually like to have Celestia's job. A lot of Luna's struggles were centered around not being used to having to remain composed for such an extended period of time without any time to herself to think or relax. Celestia's job is something that would be hard to fully appreciate how tough it actually is without just literally filling in for her in a day. (And to be honest I just stumbled upon the realization that is literally the plot of this episode as I was writing that sentence) And to that extent even if Celestia DID tag along with Luna and observe her doing her job she wouldn't really encounter what it's like to do the job by herself with no one for emotional support. As I said before, they would have to literally do the exact same thing as the other's normal job in order to fully appreciate what their sister has to do on a daily basis, which is what happens in the episode.

Overall I can understand why you wound be annoyed that even after the Nightmare Moon debacle the two sisters still don't completely get along, which to a degree diminishes those events by having them essentially happen again. It doesn't bother me personally as I'm the type of person that's willing to overlook some inconsistencies or unflattering presentations of a character if I think the result of that is interesting and worth it, which I think it absolutely was in this episode. It might have made more sense if Celestia and Luna got along well after their reunion, but I think they sold this storyline of them still having issues fairly well and I didn't feel like it diminished their characters very much in terms of not working through their previous issues. I think it's reasonable to be disappointed that their dynamic wasn't what you were expecting but at the same time you at some point have to look at what you ended up getting at face value, not on what it could have been. (And I'm with you there, I'll fully admit that I often have a hard time doing this)

On to Starlight, I do 100% agree that there's some mixed signals that in this episode they're showing her "unconventional" solutions to problems as being a positive trait here while at the same time having her just randomly do the spell without talking things through with the princesses first. At the very least I think a line or two at the end of the episode where the Princesses joke that she should have maybe told them what she was doing before doing it would have helped a bit by making this a learning experience for Starlight. However I think the decision for Starlight to act without informing the princesses first was largely make for dramatic effect rather then for character motivation purposes. And to be fair I think that it largely succeeds in making the episode at the very least more exciting, although I can totally understand not wanting to see it play out that way. There were other ways that the scenario could have played out, but with limited time and other factors all of the other options had their own shortcomings as well. Aside from again throwing in a line or two to tell Starlight that she should have forewarned Celestia and Luna I don't think there's anything that wouldn't have had other drawbacks that could have made things worse for the overall enjoyment of the episode.
Not saying what we got was the best thing we could have but it's worth considering that there's other issues with having it play out a different way.

Kinda ran out of steam here and got sidetracked. I'm tired anyway so I'm calling it here for now

Just a small response to your first point.

I'm talking more specifically about when Luna first got back. She's been out of the game for a millennium. I think it's unrealistic to expect her to have started back up on her own.

SigmasonicX · May 27, 2017

Today's episode(s) is/are:

In the US
8. Hard to Say Anything
When the Cutie Mark Crusaders discover that Big Mac has his first crush, they vow to help him win Sugar Belles heart before Feather Bangs does it first.

In Canada?
This probably isn't airing, but just in case.

12. Discordant Harmony
When Discord invites Fluttershy to his realm for tea, he worries she won't be comfortable there and begins to change it and himself with disastrous results.

Episodes that can be discussed freely
1. Celestial Advice - Twilight Sparkle agonizes over Starlight Glimmers future and receives some much-needed advice from her very own mentor Princess Celestia.
2. All Bottled Up - While the Mane 6 are on a friendship retreat, Starlight Glimmer loses Twilight Sparkles friendship map. Afraid her anger might get out of control, Starlight Glimmer casts a calming spell while the ponies search for the lost map.
3. A Flurry of Emotions - After planning a jam-packed day, Twilight Sparkle also agrees to babysit her niece, Flurry Heart. But with Flurry Heart along for the ride, Twilight Sparkle struggles to maintain her title as 'The Best Aunt Ever' while keeping Flurry Heart out of trouble!
4. Rock Solid Friendship - When Pinkie Pie learns that Maud might move to Ponyville, she does everything she can to make sure her sister sees that it has more to offer than just rocks.
5. Fluttershy Leans In - Fluttershy is determined to make her career dreams come true with the help of some very special ponies. But when her true vision is not being executed properly, she must find a way to stand up and fight for her ideas.
6. Forever Filly - When Rarity surprises Sweetie Belle with a special day together filled with all of her favorite activities, she quickly learns that her little sister is no longer the little foal she used to be.
7. Parental Glideance - When Rainbow Dash's parents discover she's a Wonderbolt, they show up at every event to cheer her on. However, their unabashed enthusiasm proves to be rather embarrassing and pushes Rainbow Dash to the brink.
And "Hard to Say Anything" in about an hour.

On another note, new picture book revealed to tie into the movie, The Great Princess Caper.

With fresh and contemporary illustrations, this picture book will appeal to young and old fans of My Little Pony! It ties into the feature length My Little Pony movie, coming October 2017!

The art style from the cover is really cute. The picture books have all been surprisingly great, I hear, and this looks like it will continue that pattern. ED misidentifies the character on the cover as Capper, but it's actually Grubber. It looks like the story involves him stealing a cake, or possibly 40.

DrForester · May 27, 2017

Nope. No new episode in Canada.

SigmasonicX · May 27, 2017

Hard to Say Anything
Damn, I thought for sure Feather Bangs was a cameo from one of the big brony singers, especially since he reminded me of Mandopony's OC and we know he interacts with the show cast a lot, but him being Vincent Tong (aka waifu stealer Flash Sentry) works really well in a meta sense too.

And this has the second of the five songs of the season. I'm surprised no one brought that up when we were discussing how many songs "The Perfect Pear" would have; this means for sure it will only have one or two songs. Honestly, I thought for sure my rule against mentioning songs from Canadian episodes outside of spoiler tags would be the first to be broken; I underestimated you guys.

Plus, I'm amazed Big Mac actually starting to date Sugar Belle and Cheerimac and Marblemac being dead and buried hasn't caused a big enough outcry to break into non-spoiler discussion. Someone alert Cheerilee the GAF poster! (No, don't do that) Speaking of which, there's a bingo space I really didn't expect to get: romance with previously single character. Updated bingo card.

As for the episode itself, it was alright, but really not as good as it could have been. The biggest disappointment is that of all shows, you'd think this one would have Sugar Belle break out of the typical role love interest characters play in these sorts of stories, but nope. She's neutral about the competing stallions, gets angry when they bother her too much, and rewards the one who's nice to her with romance. She shows little personality outside of that, expect that she sure loves baking.

What this episode desperately needed is perhaps the CMC actually stopping to talk to Sugar Belle and get her take on the situation. They could have cut down on the spy stuff and the CMC constantly stopping to laugh to fit this in.

The fairy tale stuff was pretty weird. Would this world really have so many stories of heroic knights saving princesses, given what the princesses are like?

Still, I thought Feather Bangs was an amusing character, especially when it was revealed he was incapable of anything other than grand romantic gestures and needed help actually talking to his Gaston entourage. Speaking of which, I thought it was cute how Sugar Belle was Belle and he was Gaston; they could have leaned more into that.

I liked how Big Mac kept telling the CMC not to use a love potion, and that they generally acknowledged "Hearts and Hooves Day".

I found the song(s) fun, though the transitions between the two could have been done better. I was glad they remembered that as a Pony Tone, Big Mac would be good at singing.

Overall, it was alright but there were obvious ways to make it way better.

Ogodei · May 27, 2017

PaulloDEC said:
Aww yiss.

I think that while the episode might've initially seemed to be about method or efficiency, what it was really about was motivation. The Apple Family are motivated by dedication to their craft, and a desire to deliver quality. Flim and Flam are motivated by greed, and a desire for wealth at the expense of everything else. Their machine might've been good, but allowing them to be part of the process would've meant compromising a system that valued quality above all else.

I think ultimately the transformation from "compromise to get rich" to "cheat to get rich" made a funny kind of sense. It wasn't that they couldn't do good work; it was about their character, and the fact that when the chips were down they didn't really care what they had to sacrifice to line their pockets.

Pinkie Keen was definitely the first big moral/message goof for me.

The thing was the Apples valued quality to the point where they were creating harmful scarcity, though. Rainbow Dash flat out couldn't get any cider that first day.

Plus later episodes showed that AJ's "we have to do it our way because it's the right way" attitude is full of crap. That was the only redeeming value to "Applejack's Day Off" because it finally started poking holes in the silliness of the Apple family conservatism which was otherwise supported by the Zap Apple episode or SSCS6K

Applejack was worst pony not because she was uninteresting but because she never had to learn any lessons: she was the annoying one who is right all the time, at least before Season 4.

Fat4all · May 27, 2017

there should be a course study on scarcity and economic reasoning in equestria

DemWalls · May 27, 2017

Ogodei said:
Applejack was worst pony not because she was uninteresting but because she never had to learn any lessons: she was the annoying one who is right all the time, at least before Season 4.

Larson basically said so himself, therefore whoever says otherwise is wrong.

SigmasonicX · May 27, 2017

Haha, so we're still talking about apple economics? Some things never change. Anyway, two week old comment responses.

UberTag said:
Hard to Say Anything

Was this the first episode ever without a Mane 6 appearance of any kind?

I was assuming Big Mac was going to crash and burn given how one-sided his advances were and how oblivious Sugar Belle seemed to be - outside of her love of desserts - but love found a way.

There were plenty of amusing facial reactions from the CMCs in this episode. And Feather Bangs made quite the vivid impression.

"On Your Mark" last season was also a CMC episode without any of the Main Six, and that didn't even have any other major side character either. I was kind of surprised Big Mac and Sugar Belle did end up together, but that was more due to the lack of a big kaboom from the fandom.

ShinySylvee said:
Yeah I didn't really think so, although I seem to be a lot harder on episodes then most people. It was written by newcomer Becky Wangberg, who previously worked as an executive assistant on the Fairly Oddparents as well as a writer on Tuff Puppy and Bunsen is a Beast. Overall similar background to Crowley and Wetta from Flurry of Emotions, and a lot of the issues I had with them are showcased here as well. There's a decent amount of legitimately funny jokes interspersed through the episode and the episode pretty much gives you exactly what you would expect from the description of it, so if that's all you're really looking for then you'll go away satisfied. If you expecting anything more then that though, you're likely to be disappointed.

This definitely feels like a budget filler episode that didn't have a bunch of effort thrown into it. Pretty much all the assets in the episode were reused from other episodes. The whole thing is visually uninteresting because it's taking place in a town that is supposed to appear dull and boring. And I think there's like 9 characters in the whole episode that have any lines of dialogue. That's fine conceptually, putting less effort into episodes like this means there's more resources to dedicate to episodes like the upcoming Celestia+Luna one or the AJ's parents episode. But I feel like many of my issues with this episode feel like ones that are sort of tied to those factors, whether they were budgetary constraints or the writer just didn't feel like writing in more characters or adding significant changes to Starlight's Village's appearance.

When I first heard the synopsis I was excited because it would be featuring Sugar Belle. The whole village in general has been largely ignored ever since Starlight left it in season 5 aside from her returning and being instantly forgiven and them inviting her back for their festival. I was personally hoping that we might get to see more interactions with Starlight and the villagers, hopefully getting an on-the-record reason as to why they forgave her so easily, or failing that at least get to see more of Party Favor, Double Diamond, and Night Glider as I liked them in Cutie Map and would have liked to see how they've changed since their "liberation." It also would have been interesting to see the changes that have been made to the town, possibly making things more visually interesting by decorating things and painting their houses to give them more personality. Not only do I feel like it's a missed opportunity to develop some stuff that could have definitely benefited from some fleshing out, but I feel like the episode itself could have really used something like that to help with keeping the audience entertained. Looking back at Parental Glideance a large strength of that episode to me is that the cringey scenes of Rainbow's parents being obnoxiously supportive of her don't actually take up a massive part of the episode's runtime. In fact, roughly the first half of the episode is Scootaloo meeting Rainbow's parents and showing off Rainbow's childhood. This episode could have greatly benefited from a similar setup. If they spent a good chunk of the time showing off the town and its residents as well as how their lives have changed, I think that the scenes of Big Mac wooing Sugar Belle could have been much tighter because they could be shortened and had a higher concentration of jokes rather then having them be spread out through a longer period of time.

I actually liked a lot that Starlight wasn't involved in this story at all. And though they ultimately didn't do much with Sugar Belle, I liked that they focused only on her and didn't bring in any of the other Unequal Four as side characters. Though I suppose seeing one of them talk to her wouldn't have hurt. I do agree that the wooing scenes should have been tightened up.

As for the characters themselves things aren't very good. Like Uber said there's no major characters in the episode. Sugar Belle had little personality to me besides liking to bake and her chemistry with Big Mac is almost non-existent. Feather Bangs comes off as probably the most interesting character in the episode but it would have been nice if they gave his more sympathetic side they establish at the end more development. If he does return I hope they focus more on that. Big Mac has almost no agency in this episode, basically just standing around and doing whatever the CMC tells him to. And the CMC have gone back to acting like 8 year olds again, which is especially jarring to me given the growth they showed in Forever Filly and Parental Glideance. Realistically you could have swapped out Sugar Belle for some other mare and you could have easily passed this episode off as a season 1-2 episode. Also like a lot of the CMC episodes you could have swapped all of their dialogue and nothing would have felt out of place.

You know, I actually would like to see Feather Bangs come back, continuing to seek dating advice from the CMC. It could be funny. I did think the CMC were acting unusually childish this episode, given earlier episodes this season, especially with all the fairy tale stuff.

Overall the episode isn't terrible but for the reasons I listed I feel like there was a lot of missed potential here and a lot of the things that typically make MLP episodes good are missing here. It's inoffensive and has some good jokes here in there but there's nothing particularly amazing here either. As I said in the unspoilered part of this post a lot of the issues that I had with the two previous Nickelodeon writers that they've brought on (not much character development, somewhat confusing moral, episode whose premise feels more suited for an 11 minute length rather then a 22 minute one) are shown here as well as a couple other ones that show the writer struggling to adjust to the differences between your average Nick show and MLP. With the right setup I think this writer could be alright but I'm not really holding my breath.

Yeah, I suppose this does feel like the writer planned out story beats for an 11 minute episode and then stretched things out to make it 22 minutes, rather than thinking from the start about what would work in 22 minutes.

PaulloDEC said:
I actually thought Hard to Say Anything was pretty good, and a better-than-average start for a new writer.

Not really much comes to mind to say about it; there were some nice lines for the Crusaders, and the musical battle towards the end was quite funny. Glad to see Big Mac getting a happy ending with Sugar Belle, who had apparently been hitting on him so hard it's amazing he was able to stay standing.

Yeah, the music battle was the highlight of the episode. From the synopsis, I was surprised to see that Sugar Belle seemed to be showing interest back to Big Mac from the start.

Chained Prometheus said:
Hard to Say Anything... Hm. Not sure what I think of it as a whole and I need to rewatch it to make a full opinion.

However I love the whole reference to the Blondettes from Beauty and the Beast. They even had Belle, Jasmine and Ariel's hairdos for manes, just like the Blondettes did too!

I really liked those three mares too. I never actually noticed that the Beauty and the Beast women had different hair styles. Comparison.

Rhomega Beta said:
Hard To Say Anything:
It's nice to see Big Mac get some character development and see his life go somewhere. Also more talking is nice too. At this point, I'd like to see a "love competition" story where the girl picks the hero by default because the antagonist is too over the top.

Quoted this by covering my eyes and deleting the rest of the post. It would be interesting to see how this long distance relationship actually affects Big Mac's life. If anything needed a comic tie in story...

You know, I already find myself warming up to the episode. I'll probably like it more on rewatch.

BTW, had this pointed out to me.

They really do tell Feather Bangs that he has three mares waiting for him without even suggesting he has to choose one, don't they? I've said before that I really like Sugar Belle's design, but I think Feather got the better ending.

EDIT: Removing embed. Thinking about it, going, "Oh, what if those mares are actually stallions? How wacky, mirite?" isn't the sort of joke I feel comfortable making. Leaving the link so you know what I'm referring to.

Ogodei · May 28, 2017

I liked "Hard to Say Anything." The show's at its best when it waxes a little self-aware, and Sugar Belle's growing annoyance at her treatment really made the episode as a whole work, as well as the absurdity of an adult taking the advice of what's basically a group of tweens on love.

Plus Feather Bang's frosted tips were so on the nose, it was hilarious.

Or maybe i just liked this better because i was drinking an IPA while watching.

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