Sorry ladies, no one will accept you. YOU ARE NOT TRUE LINK.
I've come back to post in this thread just to say
to those cosplayers
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Aonuma: That was Link in the Wii U Zelda trailer, denies 'female' rumors
- Thread starter Partition
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I've come back to post in this thread just to say
to those cosplayersThis is a case where you're simply weighing their opinions more heavily than I am. I never did drink the "Wow! This Link might be female!" Kool-Aid because I didn't think he looked anywhere remotely as different as certain people were making him out to be, and I firmly believed that Aonuma was just teasing. Many others have suggested the same. It's not much of a testament to anything for me.
The concept of Link's design has everything to do with appearance. If Nintendo altered this new theoretical design to make it recognizably female (read: NOT like Zelda U Link, whose degree of physical femininity is highly debatable at best) I definitely can't picture it looking even slightly consistent with other Links; for that matter, I don't see it fitting the template as much as both WW Link and TP Link even in relation to each other. On the other hand, if the female Link wasn't distinctly feminine-looking enough for most people to immediately recognize the gender swap, I don't see the point.
Because it doesn't reflect any real change in Link's actual biological features. It's merely a change in art style, not the design concept itself.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This is, as you've said, all up to opinion. I'm acknowledging the opinions of people who thought the character in the trailer (who has been confirmed by Aonuma to be Link and not a female version) to possibly be female. Even without the green tunic and hat, it's still Link. I'm saying that the Link in the trailer could've been female because of how androgynous the model was, yet that difference alone wouldn't have made Link any less recognizable than the non-traditional Link clothes he's wearing. If it had actually been a girl and was wearing a green tunic, no one would've thought "that's not Link," especially because of the lack of voice in the trailer.
People who find Link being a girl to be too big of a change, yet are fine with the male Link in the trailer, don't have a problem with the notion of a female appearance for the character. They solely have a problem with the sex of the character itself, meaning the "recognizable" reasoning doesn't hold water.
If we take one version of an existing Link and create a female version in that same art style (WW for example) it will look close to WW Link, more so than Twilight Prinecss Link. The only way for a female WW Link (say, with stereotypical "girl" features like more noticeable eyelashes and longer hair) to look more different to WWL than TPL to someone is if they somehow place greater importance on sex than they do an entirely different art style.
Not only that, but even if the female version looks noticeable different, all Nintendo has to do is say "this is girl Link, same as boy Link, but a girl" and then, if people are so inclined, they believe this girl Link is an entirely separate character, sort of like how Toon Link and regular Link are separate characters in SSB. The character concept would be a part of the game and even if the difference could be considered huge, it would still be entirely up to the individual's feelings as to whether it's good or bad.
You not seeing a point to a girl version that isn't outwardly, "recognizably" female is moot. There doesn't have to be a point. No one's challenging anyone to provide a point or reason as to why Link was made male in the first place and there's no need to do the same for why Link should be made a girl either. There are people who would want a female Link though; we're placing a huge amount of importance on appearance if we think the only justification for a female Link is that they're "obviously" a girl.
And what does "recognizably female" have to be? The long eyelashes and long hair I mentioned? There are girls in real life who have short versions of both. There are flat-chested women, tall women, Etc.
Link has no biological features though. All of his features are art, or renderings. Linkette's womanly figure would be just as much art as male Link's body.
Not only that, but one only has to change what they do/say in regards to another person's sex (real or fictional) in a few certain situations, none of which will be happening in a Zelda game. If you're sexually attracted to someone and want to have sex with them, then it matters. If you're a doctor, it matters. Otherwise, someone's who's sex is male could consider themselves female, or vice versa, and it'd be of no concern to you.
ShinMaruku
Member
Sorry ladies, no one will accept you. YOU ARE NOT TRUE LINK.
Speak for yourself they are my link
Mango The Magician
Banned
Just an fyi I'm pretty sure the Metroid series has introduced the possiblity of multiple universes within its lore (to explain Aether I think) or at least multiple dimensions, and parallel universes are considered in one theory to be tied to different dimensions, so there's nothing stopping Nintendo from making a Metroid game set in a parallel universe with a male Samus. Furthermore Mario games don't follow really any set lore so there's nothing stopping a female Mario and male Peach, in fact there's nothing stopping Zelda from being male in Zelda's lore
. Finally there's nothing stopping a female Link, as the lore says he's different in each game or something, in fact there's nothing stopping Nintendo from swapping any of their characters as Nintendo can rewrite any of their lore if they want to. Will Nintendo go out of their way to change Mario, Link, or Samus? I doubt it, but the argument that Link is a different person in each game so there's nothing stopping FemLink seems a little pointless as there's nothing stopping Nintendo from doing what they want to do.
I don't think that femLink can't happen, just that I don't want it to as I'm afraid they'd go to cc next which is something I don't want. To me cc goes against the Zelda lore, as Link is a character to me female or not, and him not having a canonical look to me goes agaisnt the lore and my veiw of Zelda, as regardless of how he looks he's a character within the world.
Finally, I didn't think Link looked like a girl in the trailer just that he looked kinda weird almost borderline uncanny valley cause something seemed off, namely how his eyebrow goes a little too far down and the ears seemed placed a little too high or too low at least at first glace. I honestly don't know what's wrong with the model it just looks a little off, but I think some people might have honestly gotten confused because the cell shading and the low quality kinda masks a lot of the features. If you look he has a very similar jaw line to TP Link even with the same chin bump, and his neck is just as thick but it almost blends in with background.
This is just my two cents on where this debate has headed since I went to bed.
as Hylia only reincarnated into SS Zelda not all of them and her powers are carried via blood not gender
I don't think that femLink can't happen, just that I don't want it to as I'm afraid they'd go to cc next which is something I don't want. To me cc goes against the Zelda lore, as Link is a character to me female or not, and him not having a canonical look to me goes agaisnt the lore and my veiw of Zelda, as regardless of how he looks he's a character within the world.
Finally, I didn't think Link looked like a girl in the trailer just that he looked kinda weird almost borderline uncanny valley cause something seemed off, namely how his eyebrow goes a little too far down and the ears seemed placed a little too high or too low at least at first glace. I honestly don't know what's wrong with the model it just looks a little off, but I think some people might have honestly gotten confused because the cell shading and the low quality kinda masks a lot of the features. If you look he has a very similar jaw line to TP Link even with the same chin bump, and his neck is just as thick but it almost blends in with background.
This is just my two cents on where this debate has headed since I went to bed.
sums up my position perfectly~
That first point is certainly true, but it's also something I've already acknowledged to be an exception to the notion of a female Link "breaking" the consistency in Link's overall character design for the series. But as I've mentioned previously, I simply don't see the purpose of changing Link's gender without applying suitable alterations to set "Linkette" apart from the conventional male version.
You might claim I'm placing an overly huge amount of importance on the character's appearance, but I still fail to see a valid reason for gender swapping without some kind of major alteration in design - and I mean this regardless of whether the supposed female Link is recognizably/stereotypically female or not. It's literally no different than changing an iconic character like Samus to a guy but keeping the long hair and strongly feminine facial features if only for the sake of pandering to people who suddenly want the hero of Metroid to be a male. The very idea is bizarre to me, and I've yet to see a reason why I should believe otherwise.
When we're discussing changes made to Link's overall design, why exactly wouldn't we place more emphasis on a character's conceptual features than a different art style? We're not making any headway in this argument. WW Link's physical appearance would absolutely resemble TP Link more than, say, a female WW Link would appear in relation to the standard WW Link because for one, they're entirely different genders, and two, a mismatch to the established template would be glaringly obvious, not to mention far more drastic in comparison to what people were once calling "an adult WW Link" when TP was first unveiled to the public. Not everybody wants this, and this opinion is perfectly sensible and valid.
I think you're grasping quite a bit here. Everything I noted above (a light-skinned character with parted, blondish-brown to blonde hair and an androgynous-yet-boyish face) is unquestionably a collection of biological features exclusive to Link's design concept in relation to other characters in the same franchise. This is simply undeniable. A shift in art style is entirely and utterly irrelevant to the continued consistency of Link's design.
Whoa whoa whoa, you want to get in a fight??
Not to intrude on your debate here, but I think the point he's making here is that the features you pointing out here are very generic and aren't reliant on maleness. Link's hair color and how he parts it, his eye color, and his facial features are not dependent on Link being male to make sense. You even point out that Link's face has been androgynous before in the past, so none of the features you deem to be important to Link actually require him to be male.
Examples of male features would be big, bulging muscles, scare jaw line, facial/body hair and a big old dick held against his thigh by his tights. But typical Link doesn't usually have these features. Well, except for the penis.
The funny thing about this conversation to me is that a lot of people seen A-Ok with an androgynous Link, a Link that looks female but is male, but wouldn't be ok with a female Link that would likely look the same as an androgynous male Link.
I've only pointed out that I've always seen Link's face as on the more boyish side of androgynous, but there are also many cues in his character design that add to this vibe - his figure, clothing style, and even subtle characteristics such as his messy hair lend to his status as a typical male character. I would not classify Link's holistic design as stereotypically female in any universe, and I've already addressed the notion of Link being an "unconventional" female (for lack of a better word).
Laugh to your heart's content, but again, a lot of us didn't see Zelda U's Link as being more feminine than usual.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Been looking at the trailer a few times and I think it's just me but the cloak Link wears seems similar to the one Impa wore in Skyward Sword which may lead me to believe maybe he is a member of a Shiekah Tribe in this iteration? Might be interesting. Just a thought though. Probably nothing though.
activatethesmile
Member
Every time I hear the words "all Link has no personality" I want to kick a nearby kitten.
Spirit Tracks, Twilight Princess, SKYWARD SWORD. Arguably OoT and MM even.
He's not Gordon Freeman who is nothing more than a pair of floating hands with guns.
Spirit Tracks, Twilight Princess, SKYWARD SWORD. Arguably OoT and MM even.
He's not Gordon Freeman who is nothing more than a pair of floating hands with guns.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Here's this, but it just from the first 20 pages of the original thread. I hadn't gotten a chance to go through the rest of it and this thread too.
I limited it to posts that specifically say/suggest that Link can't be a girl:
I'm not arguing for the need of a female Link, so if you're looking to discuss that, you'll want to find someone who's actually advocating it. Still, just from thinking about it for a bit, some possible purposes for making Link female this time around are:
- there's a general lack of female lead protagonists in games
- a popular series making such a change would set a precedent that would help show that "tradition" doesn't need to be considered gospel
- rather than create a new, initially less popular IP and make that protagonist female, they could use a popular one to show other developers/publishers it's nothing to be averse to
- Help combat the irrational notion that Link can't be have a female incarnation
There can be purposes to the change, whether you agree with them aside. This also is a continuation of the "Link needs to have a reason to be female, but doesn't need one to stay male" line of thinking that's been present in this thread. What purpose does Link staying male serve?
I feel like I have to reiterate: every post I've made so far has been about how the notion that "Link can't be a girl" is wrong. My point in the part of my post you quoted here is that making Link female doesn't require any more of an overhaul of Link's appearance than a shift in art style. I don't know how to explain this any simpler than I already have.
You haven't explained how a female Link would look too different either, beyond saying it'd be too different for you. Imagine if the male and female Links are twins. If they're wearing the same green tunic/hat combo, the female one will look very similar to the male one. She doesn't require a wildly different outfit, her breast don't have to be huge, she doesn't need to wear pink, Etc. You haven't presented any conclusive reasoning beyond your own feelings on the matter as to how female Link is more different from male Link of the same art style than Links of other art styles, and you haven't explained such a change is harmful to the series.
If you want reasons to convince you of the worth of such a change, there's the possible purposes I posted above. Beyond that, not sure what else convincing you'd need if the only reason you need to not have a girl Link is the appearance change, something already happens every game. An opinion, sure, but very weak justification.
I don't know how else to explain this more simply:
Imagine you place a translucent image of the female WW Link over the male one with both in the same pose. It will line up better than a translucent TP Link image in the same pose. will look more similar.
You considering the gender of the character to somehow be a bigger difference than an entirely other art style doesn't extend beyond your own mind. I've already said the "conceptual" argument doesn't hold water, and it's even more evident now. Just because WW Link and TP Link both have belts, hats, yellow hair, Etc. doesn't mean they're the same.
There's no way a female Link is going to objectively be unrecognizable to everyone. It won'y hard the IP, it won't confuse anyone, it won't undermine the sanctity of the series.
I say they're not biological features because Link isn't real. You said that an art shift isn't significant...
Yet these "biological features" only exist as art. If I draw/animate Link as a girl, then Link's a girl. If I draw him as a dragon, he's a dragon. Link in the games isn't a depiction of a real person who needs to be accurately portrayed. Link has been different characters in each game, each with different appearances already. Making Link girl who's an incarnation of the holder of the Triforce would make her Link and she could still do all the things Link does while wearing a traditional Link outfit.
And this
is just not true. Especially when being used to argue that making Link female is somehow too inconsistent in an already inconsistent series. Your opinion is subjective, but your reasoning can still be terribly flawed, as it is here.
And it's interesting that you mention grasping because arguing that a female Link would somehow be a problem solely because it's a "conceptual" difference despite there being notably different Links already, without providing any actual reasoning for why this would be bad, is grasping.
balgajo
Member
I have no problem playing as Zelda, for example. The problem is that a lot of people(including me) think of Link as a mascot with characteristics that can't be changed(or shouldn't) for the sake of recognizing him . That's one of the reasons behind the big backslash about Wind Waker. They changed Link in a manner that people got upset. Also, that's why Aonuma told in a interview that the team will be very careful while choosing styles.
The same already happened with Dante, in DMC reboot. People got upset only because they changed his hair color, changing his gender would generate the same(or even more) rage.
Most people who see Link as a mascot, see him in the same manner that they see Mario, Samus, Lara Croft, Nathan Drake. And any radical change from one iteration to another will generate rage(supported by story or not).
I know that the lore could open space for such changes, but that doesn't mean that people would be happy about it. Imagine the rage caused by a Zelda with Link being a blond rabbit instead of a human.
Like I said in other posts, I'm very different from Link in appearance, but that doesn't mean that I want the option to change it to be like me.
Spring-Loaded
Member
That and all the examples you go on to list are the result of people's personal tastes. There will always be someone who doesn't like a given change to a series due to their tastes. There are also plenty of people who liked all the changes you mention.
Was making Wind Waker a bad decision because it received a negative response? Aonuma and Nintendo knew there might be backlash and they did it anyway.
If all we're talking about at this point is that people will have different reactions to things, then there's nothing to actually discuss. You're just sharing at that point and what you say has little to do with my post you quoted.
balgajo
Member
I really don't know why to be discussing about Link's characteristics if not for a personal taste. Don't really understand what you meant...
Aonuma never knew that it would receive such a negative response in west. Actually, he already stated that he was told by someone from NOA that the main reason for weak sales outside Japan were due the style, which was unpopular here. And go against the fanbase in a radical form like he did is a bad decision for me.
I only quoted because none of your reasons appears to be good enough for Nintendo changing an iconic character with decades of history. It's not better than people who want to keep this way because that's the way they like, and they don't need another argument for that.
Spring-Loaded
Member
There's not much I can say in response to it besides "okay" is what I meant.
You would make a better case if you didn't quote 10 posts from 2 posters. Half of total those quotes are mine and Ryuelli's and several out of the total count are interpreted by you, the way you want to, essentially putting words in people's mouths to make your point. Not to mention that they are completely taken out of context.
So yes, if you want to come up with quotes do it properly or don't do it at all.
Spring-Loaded
Member
A few things
- I told that user I was responding to didn't believe anyone ever said that Link can't be a girl/must stay male (beyond just stating their personal opinions). I told them I'd find some posts that say or suggest that Link can't be a girl despite each Link being different. That's what I did.
- If you click on the arrow next to people's usernames in a quote, it takes you to that post. If a quote seems unfairly taken out of context, click on that and you'll see the context.
- These are just the posts that go beyond explicitly stating how one feels, ones that attempt to provide concrete reasoning why Link should stay the same. There's plenty other posts that you can see and judge for yourself whether they meet the above criteria.
- Since I didn't say I'd just post a list of users who took this stance, I just posted every post I saw that fit the criteria I set for which posts I'd post. I wasn't planning on going through all 37/74 pages (100 posts per page and 50pp, respectively) and then editing out duplicate posts from users because I didn't not have enough time to do that when I made the post, and I didn't need to in order to follow through with what I promised PdotMichael.
- By including multiple posts from the same users, I'm not just including their initial posts; people can see more sides of their argument in one place. Again, if anyone wants to see the context, they can click on the arrows next to their names.
I won't tell anyone what to read through the threads themselves because it takes a while and since posting on/reading forums is a pastime for most, it'd be ridiculous for me to say something like "read through the threads properly or don't read through them at all" to someone.
However, I will suggest that anyone who doesn't believe anyone said/suggested/attempted to provide objective reasons for why Link shouldn't/can't be a girl — and they aren't satisfied with the posts presented which contain those arguments— then read through the Zelda Wii U announcement thread and this one themselves.
Still, here are posts from the first 7 (or 14) pages of this thread, which is specifically about Link's gender/sex.
Please forgive any posts that are misinterpreted as I quoted these in haste since I have to go somewhere else. Even if there are a few, this is meant to show that there's a contingent of Zelda fans who try to objectively prove that Link can't be a girl, for various reasons, none of which objectively dictate that Link can't be female. Overall, these posts show that mentality+attempt at justification exists (click the arrows to take you to the post locations):