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MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie
- Thread starter Batzi
- Start date
The Cartographer
Member
Right. There are multiple meanings. Like it was originally supposed to refrence Snake and Otacon being executed by the UN. (Edit: remember that Colonel Campbell is acting secretly on behalf of the UN in the final game. And Drunk Drebin starts rambling about how they're going to replace the Patriots.) At the time of GZ Big Boss and Kaz, Paz and Chico, etc. are all duos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CmVcvBBrM8 explain the fourth, how it relates to "Twin Suns" in Shadow Moses (that aren't Solid/Liquid/Solidus) and why Kaz would suddenly become a major character after MGS4 brings up an unknown martyr put in a grave beside The Boss and Big Boss. Hint: Josef Mengele/Male Dr. Clark on the loose in Japan.
Higgins113
Banned
MikeBreezy92
Member
This thread....I swear lol.
The other implication Twin Suns/Peace Walker makes is that Naomi was a surrogate mother for a clone of Huey for Strangelove.
Also MGS4 implies Liquid was made in The Middle East and Solid in South America. Just throwing that out there.
Huey literally doesn't have a sausage by 1984
Beastmode strikes again.
I think Fake Snake could only be for GZ not TPP, and is more likely just him in the coma projecting GZ.
Ifthere are fake guns throughout TPP though, then what is real?
Think about this, Kojima isn't oblivious to the love Hayter has from the fans. He knows how Keifer will play to that. It would therefore maybe interest him, to play with that, the whole superficiality of knowing that there is an "imposter" voice acting their favorite character. Then you can use horror movie narrative techniques of using the audiences awareness of the fraud, but not the characters, adds to that tension, as they scream how do they not realize that Jack is going to go from slamming at that type writer to swinging that axe.
This was what MGS2 was. MGS2 is why we love snake so much, even though Kojima was already done with the series. It's a love letter to the legend of Snake through an "imposters" eyes so we can see how great they are.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I have no idea if beastmode is trolling or not. Frankly, I don't give a shit, that is a heck of a mind you got there either way.
Hey, that's not as bad as Solid Snake being the son of an XOF member/Paz. The two eggs are both broken in Solid Sun, a chapter that features a run-down secret laboratory in Unnamed South American country. This lab had secrets both Liquid and Naomi were interested in learning. Kojima wants to make another Solid Snake game and Snake's aging/foxdie was all kinds of inconsistent. Naked Sun/Naked Sin.
Watch MGSVI be "Otacon, Philanthropy's got a new mission. I've finally recovered... I know how to erase the meme. Ask Raiden what he knows about Dr. Madnar, he mentioned meeting him that one time... I thought he was just delirious. Madnar died in Zanzibar. Let's give our favorite contributor a visit."
Edit: in the same chapter Cyborg Raiden/Vamp are introduced. Raiden mentions making his own pilgrimage to Alaska, like Snake/Miller.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Have any of your previous theories been right?
I dunno. I still haven't played Rising and didn't think much of Peace Walker's details until GZ. I've played TONS of MGS3, however, and have been looking over MGS4/PW footage a lot. From what I understand Rising is all about Raiden fighting Cyborgs? Fits in with a frustrated Raiden going down a dark path between MGS2/4. Him trying to get to Madnar with EVA's help after she got him to save Raiden. That was the timeframe it was meant to take place in under KojiPro/Kojima/
early FOX engine?
Also Kojima's been angling the series as truly beginning with Subsistence these days, he told newcomers to just watch the digital comics of MGS1/2 in the Legacy collection.
The one thing I've learned is to never shut down someones crazy theory when it comes to Metal Gear. I remember when MGS3's trailers started popping up, and one of the main MGS forums was dissecting it. This one guy had this page long crazy theory, that relied solely on shadows and lighting. He got shit on by everyone. Turns out, he was fucking right, as he called Snake going on two separate missions in the game. Fucking asshole.
You will feel ashamed of your words and deeds. Condemning Otacon/Johnny/Meryl/Drebin/Litte Gray/Raiden/Sexy women and putting Solid Snake/Big Boss on a pedestal. Say goodbye to your mighty sausage, gamers. In MGSV manly men become demons.
These are the last two songs on the Diamond Dogs album Kojima said he wanted to open GZ with at one point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EOlZyD26T4
And isn't Bowie like king androgynous?
BibiMaghoo
Member
Beastmode patriot AI has been infected with a virus, clearly.
ToyMachine228
Member
You know what bugs me the most about GZ? Snake is once again not making his own decisions. With Solid Snake it basically turned out that he was a pawn all along and that was his story. He was a pawn with a role to play and a burden to carry.
With Big Boss, I want to see more of a man on a mission. One of his choosing. Forging his own destiny. In the opening of Ground Zeroes we hear Snake ask Kaz "So go in and silence the targets?" And Kaz tells him otherwise. Really? The legendary Big Boss just lightly wants to go kill a child? I want Big Boss to have some conviction. He supposedly recruits all these soldiers but how? With no ideals of his own? By letting Kaz do all his thinking for him?
KojiPro writes their dialog backwards. In most modern games its side characters that make obvious observations and state them out loud to highlight them to the player. In MGS games its the main character who fills in blanks and the supporting cast who makes all the revelations and puts put thought.
I hope TPP shows us a Big Boss who takes control.
With Big Boss, I want to see more of a man on a mission. One of his choosing. Forging his own destiny. In the opening of Ground Zeroes we hear Snake ask Kaz "So go in and silence the targets?" And Kaz tells him otherwise. Really? The legendary Big Boss just lightly wants to go kill a child? I want Big Boss to have some conviction. He supposedly recruits all these soldiers but how? With no ideals of his own? By letting Kaz do all his thinking for him?
KojiPro writes their dialog backwards. In most modern games its side characters that make obvious observations and state them out loud to highlight them to the player. In MGS games its the main character who fills in blanks and the supporting cast who makes all the revelations and puts put thought.
I hope TPP shows us a Big Boss who takes control.
I think Kojima blatantly said that The Boss/The Joy = the feminine warrior type in one of the Subsistence bonus discs. Liquid/Solid/Solidus are obviously different representations of masculinity. Big Boss and his whole angry at the government+a woman betrayed me in service of The Man/Major Zero many many years ago = an MRA. Naked Sun/Sin might have just been stuff that Ocelot+Liquid told Snake/Big Boss to comfort/mess with them one last time.
Big Boss will eventually join the Patriots he is not in control.
Yeah. He's very passive.
"Let's not to the UN Inspection"
"No, we should"
"..."
"They just killed everyone. We need to get back at them for this"
"..."
Ugh. Whip it out and show them who's boss. Big Boss. Lead the charge. Do something.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
So, who was the major contributor for Philanthropy anyway?
EDIT: Totally agree on Big Boss being too fucking passive. Quite a far cry from what he was in MGS3. Now he's like "ok, fine I'll do it". He goes to rescue Kaz only because Ocelot tells him he needs him, gets revenge on people because Kaz is all played like a fiddle. Really feel like this legendary soldier is just a freaking puppet to get people into a private military company just for wealth while his friend gets to do whatever he wants. Quite annoying.
It's even worse because Kojima said he wanted Snake to speak less, so Jesus, this guy is going to be passive as heck.
EDIT: Totally agree on Big Boss being too fucking passive. Quite a far cry from what he was in MGS3. Now he's like "ok, fine I'll do it". He goes to rescue Kaz only because Ocelot tells him he needs him, gets revenge on people because Kaz is all played like a fiddle. Really feel like this legendary soldier is just a freaking puppet to get people into a private military company just for wealth while his friend gets to do whatever he wants. Quite annoying.
It's even worse because Kojima said he wanted Snake to speak less, so Jesus, this guy is going to be passive as heck.
At the time of Ground Zeroes, he already joined and left The Patriots.
The Philosopher's Legacy, through the Patriots AI.
AuthenticM
Member
Stop giving trolls attention.
Boss was queen of the 'goblins'. Wait so are they really going with Snake mad at Boss? That sounds so terrible.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Quite interesting. Didn't remember that.
You gotta give credit where it's due, thinking all of that can't be easy.
He still needs to run foxhound in the Solid Snake era.
I couldn't agree more. Kojima has shown time and time again that he is utterly incapable of creating an MGS with a decisive main character who makes decisions for himself. It suited MGS1, as the idea of Snake being used was a major element of the plot, and MGS2 with Raiden being a newbie through whom to see Snake in a better light worked really, really well too. MGS3 already started to irk me a little bit; it has a pass because it shows Big Boss at his youngest, but the man has no ideals, he doesn't think for himself, he just blindly follows either his country or The Boss until a catalyst makes him rethink his loyalties, but even after that we haven't seen clear signs that he does any thinking of his own. MGS4 was abysmal in this regard, with an aged Snake that, though vulnerable, should have been wiser than ever. Instead, he became even more of a puppet than he ever was before, never making choices of his own free will, and with the game never even making a hint as to what his ideals or thoughts were in regards to anything.
I'm hyped as hell for MGSV, but it's almost solely because of the gameplay. I cannot allow myself to get hyped for this game's plot after everything. The theme of revenge excites me a lot, but we've already seen in the trailers that Kaz is the one most hell bent in exacting revenge on his perceived enemy, and that Big Boss just tags along for the ride. Hell, he (Kaz) is even seen wearing the trench coat of the classic Big Boss design. The things that were supposed to be iconic of Big Boss' character and that turned out to be borrowed from other characters just keeps piling up. It's heartbreaking, really.
Obviously, in Metal Gear, if you want a character to be moderately well developed and fleshed out, you'd damn better hope he is not the playable character. Maybe Solid Snake can time travel and give Big Boss an hour long speech about life and shit at the end of MGSV. Apparently that's the only way in which one of the Snakes can be moderately fleshed out in MGSV.
I actually kinda like quiet Snakes. It fits their "Im not a hero Im a gun" mentality. Also would somebody please create an image where snake's body is literally a gun. Distort the man all you need but make it happen.
But Big Boss is not just a gun. He's supposed to be this idol that soldiers look up to. So far, Kojima has failed miserably at actually portraying that side of him.
Here's hoping I'm proved wrong with MGSV, but I sincerely doubt that will happen.
Well said.
All of the Snakes are hollow, borderline shitty characters, to be honest. Raiden and what he goes through in MGS2 is actually more interesting than any of them.
His speech of Outer Heaven at the end of Peace Walker pulled that off extremely well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMBE4Swd-oc
Doctor_Thomas
Member
"I'm no hero. Never was, never will be. I'm just an old killer, hired to do some wet work."
Snake never accepting himself as anything other than there to follow the orders of those around him.
Big Boss, at the end of GZ, was a man on the verge. Maybe this will carry to TPP, as it says in the trailer "how you make it, is up to you". I feel like Snake questioning nothing, following orders, never knowing the full extent of what is going on worked in his favour because of how he viewed himself.
KittenMaster
Member
Zero would love to see a Snake shaped gun.
Portable Ops also has an amazing speech by him when he's recruiting a soldier. I think the idea is that he is a hero and a leader on a personal level, while Kaz handles the hard direction and management that goes on in the background, and also acts as Big Boss' CO (aka guidance for the player) during missions.
My dude.
I hate to admit it, but I have to agree. I really miss the Big Boss of MGS1 and MGS2. You know... the one we never got to see. Knowing what he did or what he was supposed to be and letting imagination do the rest is so much better. Certainly better than what we ended up getting.
Oh, yeah, that's a rare exception. Unfortunately, though, that speech, with the idea of being at the mercy of the times, is just something borrowed from The Boss :\
That line was fine, I agree, but if he's just a tool to be used by others, he should at least be smarter about his job, take the initiative, and know what should be done in any given situation. Letting the first stranger he stumbles upon stick him with a syringe after the shit that happened in MGS1 certainly doesn't say much in his favor. Neither does failing at taking his own life when, at the time, he was convinced he would become a weapon of mass destruction.
I thought thematically this was the point. You are playing the ultimate male power fantasy in Snake. But in life, even the ultimate power fantasy gets direction. The way Big Boss talks seems to be Kojima projecting his idea of what the players are. MGS2 can be argued that Raiden was playing a video game. But in the end, no matter what any of the characters do, they are in the video game that you are playing. It's because of you that these characters are the way they are.
This is immediately apparent in Raiden and Vamp. Raiden was made to service the female fans, but Kojima knew that he was also the antithesis of what was considered "masculine," tied down by a girlfriend, complains. Kojima is showing that, no he's just as manly because he's not running blindly into all of it, despite his loved ones and ranking officers saying it's a go.
Vamp on the other hand is all aesthetics. His name and looks suggest everything you need to know about him. But then later on you find out he's got a male lover, and on top of that is a nanny for another supernatural killer. How is he so awesome at first sight, but Raiden is not?
The Beauty and the Beast Unit is probably one of my favorite ways Kojima yells at his fans. They are all beautiful women turned into sleek killing machines. They have no voice of their own, and do exactly what they're programmed to. Snake can't even get close to them once they lose their armor, or be harmed himself, which echoes the gulf of understanding present between the sexes.
Only until after the fights do you get to know about their backstory, and not only that, you can skip through them if you want. Kojima is showing how we view women as objects to be utilized, either through looks or procreation. Drebin even placates Snake for the good job of ending their suffering.
At the end of the day we're forcing Kojima to make more Metal Gear games against his will, so he's going to make you pay for it.
Bunny says it way better: http://youtu.be/T-2YuPGYabw?t=33m23s
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Just finished GZ mission again. There's definitely something going on when you're on Mother Base and the camera just changes, the entire time it's quite a fixed steady cam, on Mother Base it almost looks like it's being seen through someone's eyes and, although it's been mentioned before, it really, really sticks for some reason.
I agree with the Drebin thing, I still don't understand why he would allow that to happen. As for the end, I think that shows that, given everything else, Snake is still human and he's still afraid of death. It's a very human moment, one Snake doesn't get many of. Everything else is impossible odds he can overcome, while killing himself holds no chance of escape or victory.
I agree with the Drebin thing, I still don't understand why he would allow that to happen. As for the end, I think that shows that, given everything else, Snake is still human and he's still afraid of death. It's a very human moment, one Snake doesn't get many of. Everything else is impossible odds he can overcome, while killing himself holds no chance of escape or victory.
I have said this time and time again. It was SUPER annoying in PW where BB is now in charge of a global PMC after having quit from ruling the world secretly as a Patriot and yet still he doesn't seem to take charge. Rather, Kaz seems to be the brains behind everything with BB giving tacit approval for everything Kaz suggests. It sorta deflates the entire Big Boss mythos.
Well Kaz just wants to run a business while BB wants to give soldiers a place and purpose, a lot of the scenes that might showcase Big Boss as a leader and a respected one at that are only talked about, never seen. We are constantly reminded though that the only reason most have joined is because they want to fight for him.
Though the way he eventually becomes a hero to the Sandinistas as they chant his name is a good moment, as is the tutorial where you see just how much the soldiers respect him.
There's also that one mission is PW where you play as an MSF member, and have to prevent soldiers form interfering in Boss's fight with Peace Walker, and periodically Big Boss gives supporting messages as you go about the task. It's a small detail, but it highlights how much he cares for his soldiers and how devoted they are to him.
Right, and just imagine how effective that Outer Heaven speech at the end of Peace Walker would be as an actual cutscene. That would go a helluva long way to demonstrating Big Boss as a leader and a respected authority. I really hope we get something like that for Phantom Pain.
Maybe so, we know that at some point very close after Phantom Pain, Big Boss and Miller go their separate ways, maybe Big Boss takes issue with Miller's darker, violent change of character in Phantom Pain and that spurs him to take over on his own.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Or, maybe, TPP is where the turnaround happens and Big Boss stops taking orders and suggestions from others. If The Phantom Pain is 9 years after Ground Zeroes, that takes us into 1984. In the early 90s, Big Boss returned to the US to take over FOXHOUND. I mean, at this point he has to have rejected others telling him what to do and becoming a true leader.
Portable Ops is probably the best example of how charismatic Big Boss can be to other soldiers. When all the soldiers start shooting at the ICBMG, that scene was just plain fantastic.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I think I just ruined the Big Boss character for myself. Dammit. Now he's just a puppet.
The problem isn't his charisma it's his refusal to take charge, the "Vic Boss" moment in PW is great as are other moments like it. We clearly see why people would want to join Big Boss the problem is we never see why would anyone want to stay. BB just follows the orders of everyone else around him and never seems to actually follow any sort of plan or goal. It's like he got as far as:
1. Create Mercenary Outfit where soldiers can have a home.
2. ???
3. Create Metal Gear as a deterrent.
4. ???
5. Profit.
As the one other user stated he doesnt even seem to want revenge in TPP trailers it's all Kaz acting angry and wearing the iconic BB trench-coat. Hell, even in GZ it's Kaz who gets all angry at Paz, it's Kaz who suggests capturing her to gain more intel, and it's Huey who suggests allowing the UN inspection. And, yet every time BB just nods and goes "alright."
EDIT:
Clear example of this is found in the difference between MGS2 Snake (supporting character) and MGS4 snake (main character):
