BlastProcessing
Member
Nazis live in a perpetual state of self-parody. It's a side effect of worshiping some of history's greatest losers.
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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher
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Nazis live in a perpetual state of self-parody. It's a side effect of worshiping some of history's greatest losers.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Goddammit Kirblar.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
The health bill seems like it will be caught up in a lot of problems.
BlastProcessing
Member
Wait, that's not how it's supposed to work? Shit, I've been letting a handyman bleach his socks in my sink for months. Fuck.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Sometimes I feel like George Clooney with a sword and sandals in this thread.
And that's fine with me.
AnotherNils
Member
I won't pretend I knew he was this bad, but the signs were there considering he ran DHS and the immigrant crackdown. It also had a large part in the travel ban.
I'm curious what everyone else picked up on from the briefing, but the most alarming impression I got from Kelly is he doesn't value the opinion of civilians very highly.
People advocating for seizing the means of production?
The idea that because you work for a company you deserve to own part of it is not a good one!
Trump criticizing trump irl
Poor GRIMES
Banned
There sure are a lot of milkshake ducks lately.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Your sink is not a means of production!
It is if I run a daycare out of my house!
The distinction between personal and "productive" property is an arbitrary one. It's still stuff you own.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Yeah, you can just change it to "hire a guy to paint a sign for my factory."
smokeandmirrors
Banned
I mean no its not. Unless you dont actually understand the distinction which you clearly dont.
Land is a public good so the concept of "your house" is a fiction mediated by guns anyway
"I'm waiting with a pen for Congress to act! Collapsing the marketplace will force Democrats to come to the table!"
Good luck with that.
RustyNails
Member
Im with kirblar. I can make stuff from my kitchen sink!
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Fixed that.
I have some of the same problems with socialists that I have with libertarians.
Societal consensus is legally enforced by guns.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If you run the daycare out of your house by yourself, then you are the worker, so the fact it is now a means of production is irrelevant, since you are the one operating it - the worker does indeed control the means of production. You will not find a socialist who will have much problem with this, ignoring side issues like whether the commercialization of the care of children is acceptable or what the terms are on which you came to have exclusive possession of that land.
It would only become a means of production outside the control of the workers at the point that you started e.g. taking on staff and didn't give them a share in the profits. This is not a hard distinction to grasp.
Specifically, the societal consensus we have is that you're allowed to declare a piece of land "yours" and then either shoot people who step foot on it or call on our socially mediated military authority to shoot people who step foot on it.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Societal convention is enforced by a million things before guns get involved.
It's a stupid sensationalism that I associate with libertarians mostly. It's reductive and not at all useful.
I strongly disagree. Before you can consent to the state wielding violence in your name you need to be clearly aware that thats what youre doing.
If you think something should be mediated by societal convention and not guns, you should put that in the law. Which, generally, means not putting it in the law.
I happen to think state violence is fine, although it could be managed a lot better.
The government has power because it has guns. It takes an extreme amount of dissatisfaction on the part of a populace to topple a government because people usually don't want to go up against it because it has guns.
The state creates and enforces the law. In a society where the state is in thrall to the bourgeoisie, naturally the laws it creates and enforces are beneficial to the economic system favored by that class.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Anything legally enforced is enforced by guns, including taxes. Sometimes I want things to be enforced by guns.
Right. Same! Lots of things should be enforced by guns. But that doesnt mean we need to pretend they arent. Pretending they arent will make it difficult to, for example, understand Black Lives Matter.
The point is that the idea that there should be a mandate that they get a share of the profits directly is not a good concept. Ownership should be free to manage their business (within regulated limits) as they wish.
We have taxes and government to do that sort of redistribution!
I am in agreement with this take.
Yeah, that's the point. These truths we hold to be self evident and not-so-evident are actually legal fictions enforced by guns.
So take control of the guns.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
It's a sunk cost
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You can't even do that in the UK. All land is owned by the Crown. You can just own an estate in the land, which is the right to use it for a defined period of time in return for services rendered. Of course, the defined period of time is 'until the exhaustion of one's heirs', and the Crown hasn't asked anyone to render services in since the professionalization of the military with the New Model Army (during which time the Crown was... absent... anyway), but it's a fun reminder of how strongly feudal concepts permeate the land laws of all common law countries, including the United States, which functionally just carried over all of the English laws on land.
But not with this one.
(though as Crab alludes to, the whole "government can grab land at any time" thing makes it less "private", even here in the US.)
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Anything *enforced* at all is ultimately enforced by violence. "Force" is right there in the word.
Thus, anything being the way we (as a society) want it to be is that way by implicit threat of violence. Property, individual liberty, mandatory auto insurance.
It's so broad as to be meaningless.
The key concept is the societal consensus (and the systems we erect to validate that consensus, such as our form of government) is the real key here, not the implicit violence.
Talking about "*blank* only exists because of guns" is a cheap way to invalidate any social norm.
Y'all need to read Bartleby the Scrivener.
Thus, anything being the way we (as a society) want it to be is that way by implicit threat of violence. Property, individual liberty, mandatory auto insurance.
It's so broad as to be meaningless.
The key concept is the societal consensus (and the systems we erect to validate that consensus, such as our form of government) is the real key here, not the implicit violence.
Talking about "*blank* only exists because of guns" is a cheap way to invalidate any social norm.
Y'all need to read Bartleby the Scrivener.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Damnit, I type too slow.
That's on point now.
I don;t really agree, but now the sensationalism is out of it.
On the question of seizing the means of production I think this is generally the topic Technomancer was trying to avoid.
I want to start by ensuring that anybody who wants to start their own business or look for another job has the financial security to do so and the opportunity to acquire whatever tools they need to pursue that business. This is a pretty limited version of seizing the means of production, and I'm growing more skeptical on it because of market power, but it's an incremental step that would also, you know, help millions of people live freely.
I don't really think that any socialists are arguing that two parties can't make equivalent exchanges. Although I could be wrong! So you can still hire the plumber to fix your sink, or the sign painter to paint your sign. You just can't use a rentier middleman to coerce the laborer for you.
I want to start by ensuring that anybody who wants to start their own business or look for another job has the financial security to do so and the opportunity to acquire whatever tools they need to pursue that business. This is a pretty limited version of seizing the means of production, and I'm growing more skeptical on it because of market power, but it's an incremental step that would also, you know, help millions of people live freely.
I don't really think that any socialists are arguing that two parties can't make equivalent exchanges. Although I could be wrong! So you can still hire the plumber to fix your sink, or the sign painter to paint your sign. You just can't use a rentier middleman to coerce the laborer for you.
I'm buying a house right now and I can confirm that real estate law is so fucking weird. Why do they refer to every property as "all of that there land"? I assume the Queen knows but nobody else does.
Also this post finally helped me understand why it's called title.
But not with this one.
(though as Crab alludes to, the whole "government can grab land at any time" thing makes it less "private", even here in the US.)
Actually my interpretation of Crab's post was mostly "look how dumb UK land law is top hat emoji tea cup emoji" but I might've misunderstood what he was trying to say. In practice, people mostly just assume they own land cause they bought it and the Queen rarely disagrees.
nature boy
Member
This can't be real, can it?
I'm with you on paragraph #2, it's just that's pretty much where I stop.
It's the whole "labor is special" thing when it comes to things you can buy/sell on the marketplace where I see the divergence
People wanted Kelly to be a hero because that's what we need, but everything he's done since day 1 - presiding over the horrible shit that went down at DHS, approving Trump's muslim ban - already proved he was just another Trumpist stooge. Mattis and maybe McMaster are the only people I have any faith in in this administration.
Gotta love rooting for a de facto junta.
Gotta love rooting for a de facto junta.
nature boy
Member
Looks like tax reform is going totally great and terrific, like you wouldn't believe:
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
An independent contractor plumber probably already owns their labor by socialist standards, ownership of your house doesn't enter into it. Their earnings aren't being taken by those who provide their tools and then doled back to them at less than what their labor was worth
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
If the government taxes a certain part of the profits as sanctioned by labourers, and allows capital to be used freely provided it remains within certain regulated limits as sanctioned by labourers, the labourers control the means of production. Control doesn't require one to dictate every single action - one might take an, ahem, laissez-faire approach. It just means that the labourers are, ultimately, the final arbiters, the ultimate decision-makers, and set the 'framework of the game'.
I think it is entirely plausible that business founders would be free to manage the business they founded within regulated limits under a socialist system. I just think that a socialist system would pick rather different limits to the ones we currently have in place.
This is incredibly f-ed up. Undocumented immigrant being held and not allowed to get an abortion. Judge ordered them to allow it. Trump appealed, likely trying to delay for another few weeks, after which the abortion will be illegal in Texas. Not clear why a 20 week ban is legal, but that's a whole different story.
This type of shit was all over Bush Jr too. (see: Terry Schiavo) Lots of people are just too young to remember. It's the norm for the GOP.
The Schiavo case really brought to light that Jeb was every bit the shitbag his brother was.
pigeon -- I was thinking about your statement the other day that leftists who advocate for closing borders are really just ethno-nationalists. I basically agree with that statement. But I'm also having trouble seeing how leftist thought isn't going to reduce to ethno-nationalism when it comes in contact with the real world. (For example, the US had open borders until racist quotas were imposed during the Progressive Era.)
How fan you convince ordinary people that leftist thought is incompatible with nativism? Even today a common argument is that open borders are incompatible with welfare.
Edit: on ownership of land I agree with Henry George. "Owning" land is immoral, but moving away from it would clearly be a shock to society. An acceptable moral framing is that you rent land from the commons and pay your yearly dues in the form of land value tax (or in the modern age the component of property tax that is computed on the unimproved value of land).
How fan you convince ordinary people that leftist thought is incompatible with nativism? Even today a common argument is that open borders are incompatible with welfare.
Edit: on ownership of land I agree with Henry George. "Owning" land is immoral, but moving away from it would clearly be a shock to society. An acceptable moral framing is that you rent land from the commons and pay your yearly dues in the form of land value tax (or in the modern age the component of property tax that is computed on the unimproved value of land).
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