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A post-mortem of Silicon Knights (Mama Robotnik research thread)
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
- Start date
yankeehater
Member
Such a great thread. Thanks for doing this. I wonder how much of Too Human's failure can be blamed on the way Denis talk to people about the game. Hannar and him would always get into arguments and talk down to people on the IGN360 board, and I know he was always saying crazy things in the press. I was interested in the game when it was first announced but the coverage leading up to its release really turned me off.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Thanks for the really nice comments! I'm on a train on a sub-3G connection so I can't respond in depth properly but will do. Same goes for the (very interesting!) PMs I've received.
Thanks for the correction feedback too - think I've misread The Crucible situation and will fix that. Plus the errors and word mixups - proof reading is an area in which I genuinely struggle.
Also, thanks for crediting me to the various websites that have ran with the story - I've had repeated problems in the past with sites crediting themselves for my work, so it's great to see that doesn't seem to happen any more.
Thanks for the correction feedback too - think I've misread The Crucible situation and will fix that. Plus the errors and word mixups - proof reading is an area in which I genuinely struggle.
Also, thanks for crediting me to the various websites that have ran with the story - I've had repeated problems in the past with sites crediting themselves for my work, so it's great to see that doesn't seem to happen any more.
Getting reminded about Eternal Darkness II
Would have really really loved to play this ...but then...
Come on Retro. Do it.
LazerRanger
Member
Thanks a lot for this, my favourite thread ever on NeoGaf, learnt a lot and was really entertained.
Eternal Darkness is one of my fave GC titles so really sad to see the studio go down the tubes, I really hope that Nintendo finds a way to use the franchise again in the future. And even hope Dyack finds a way to channel his passion and creativity into some form of narrative entertainment in the future.
Eternal Darkness is one of my fave GC titles so really sad to see the studio go down the tubes, I really hope that Nintendo finds a way to use the franchise again in the future. And even hope Dyack finds a way to channel his passion and creativity into some form of narrative entertainment in the future.
I thought that Twin Snakes was generally considered inferior to MGS2, since TTS has lots of framerate drops where there are multiple characters onscreen or lots of particle effects. I have my doubts that a GameCube version would have been the "definitive" one......or that even a mildly upgraded version would have been much interest to Cube owners.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Research and prosper.
Krappadizzle
Gold Member
You must make this a monthly thing. Fantastic and detailed. You should pick other studios. Great job.
Talladega Knight
Member
does dyack remind anyone else of buster bluth? lol
Dyack foolishly got caught up in the "HD AAA" phenomenon that doomed a ton of developers. If he had simply stuck with Nintendo and made Wii games, even though that'd mean no impressive graphics, things might have gone differently.
They at least would never have gotten in bed with Epic, which seems to have been the catalyst to their downfall.
They at least would never have gotten in bed with Epic, which seems to have been the catalyst to their downfall.
The development of Eternal Darkness and MGS:TTS had shown that the studio already some severe managerial issues. Both titles saw delays and still some main features had to be cut.
playingwithfire
Member
So facinating reading things like this. Great research Mama Robotnik, you should write a book
GhostWriter24
Member
You know there's something wrong with you development studio when over half your titles are cancelled.
Nocturnowl
Member
I just got through this, fantastic stuff.
I did always wonder what happened with them after their GC duo to slip so far downhill and I guess now I know.
I did always wonder what happened with them after their GC duo to slip so far downhill and I guess now I know.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I was highly critical of SK and Dyack in particular after reading the Kotaku piece about the studio's final years. But after reading through most of Mama Robotnick's excellent article (calling it a post or a thread is a disservice), I actually feel far more sympathetic towards the developer than others who have posted here so far.
Perhaps I missed a few crucial details? I read the first half in depth but skimmed through the parts about The Twin Snakes and the falling out with Nintendo and subsequent projects, because I am more familiar with these events, remember most of them from when they happened, and because I read about many of them in the aforementioned Kotaku article.
But unless my impression is based on incomplete information, it seems like many of SK's projects being canceled were due to reasons out of their direct control.
I can't really blame them for handing over the rights to the Kain franchise to CD in exchange for funding, as they were a small independent studio at the time. I also can't really blame them for betting on the 3DO and subsequently having to cancel their original version of Blood Omen and move over to Playstation. As far as a Saturn port is concerned, regardless of how far it was in development it was probably a wise decision to cancel it prior to release.
The Too Human cancellation on Playstation is an odd situation, especially considering the game was close to completion. We definitely don't have the whole picture in this case. I find it strange that SK weren't more eager to find a new publisher to get the game out on the system so all the work wouldn't go to waste. Maybe they tried and were unsuccessful...
Either way, once they became exclusive Nintendo developers, assuming they couldn't get Too Human published beforehand, they really had no choice but to put that game on the back-burner, it was probably too heavy in cutscenes and audio to ever work on the N64.
The Eternal Darkness Story echoes similar accounts of late N64 games being moved over to GC late in development, especially Rare's Star Fox Adventures (aka Dinosaur Planet), so once again I find it hard to put most of the blame on the developer. Nintendo have been known to do this in the past as well: see Star Fox 2, etc.
Besides, I imagine SK were still compensated by Nintendo for the work they put into that game, so it shouldn't have caused them any real damage as a studio besides the usual fatigue that comes with starting over.
Delaying the game for review because of the 9/11 attacks also sounds like a very reasonable course of action. The GC launched only 2 months afterwards, and the world was extremely sensitive to anything that could be perceived as inappropriate at the time. If I'm not mistaken there are stories of far bigger projects in Hollywood or on Television that were outright canceled after completion because it would have been insensitive to release them.
So really this brings me to parting ways with Nintendo as the first serious misstep of the studio. After that it really looks like things started to go downhill with the badly received Too Human, and the whole X-Men fiasco.
Perhaps I missed a few crucial details? I read the first half in depth but skimmed through the parts about The Twin Snakes and the falling out with Nintendo and subsequent projects, because I am more familiar with these events, remember most of them from when they happened, and because I read about many of them in the aforementioned Kotaku article.
But unless my impression is based on incomplete information, it seems like many of SK's projects being canceled were due to reasons out of their direct control.
I can't really blame them for handing over the rights to the Kain franchise to CD in exchange for funding, as they were a small independent studio at the time. I also can't really blame them for betting on the 3DO and subsequently having to cancel their original version of Blood Omen and move over to Playstation. As far as a Saturn port is concerned, regardless of how far it was in development it was probably a wise decision to cancel it prior to release.
The Too Human cancellation on Playstation is an odd situation, especially considering the game was close to completion. We definitely don't have the whole picture in this case. I find it strange that SK weren't more eager to find a new publisher to get the game out on the system so all the work wouldn't go to waste. Maybe they tried and were unsuccessful...
Either way, once they became exclusive Nintendo developers, assuming they couldn't get Too Human published beforehand, they really had no choice but to put that game on the back-burner, it was probably too heavy in cutscenes and audio to ever work on the N64.
The Eternal Darkness Story echoes similar accounts of late N64 games being moved over to GC late in development, especially Rare's Star Fox Adventures (aka Dinosaur Planet), so once again I find it hard to put most of the blame on the developer. Nintendo have been known to do this in the past as well: see Star Fox 2, etc.
Besides, I imagine SK were still compensated by Nintendo for the work they put into that game, so it shouldn't have caused them any real damage as a studio besides the usual fatigue that comes with starting over.
Delaying the game for review because of the 9/11 attacks also sounds like a very reasonable course of action. The GC launched only 2 months afterwards, and the world was extremely sensitive to anything that could be perceived as inappropriate at the time. If I'm not mistaken there are stories of far bigger projects in Hollywood or on Television that were outright canceled after completion because it would have been insensitive to release them.
So really this brings me to parting ways with Nintendo as the first serious misstep of the studio. After that it really looks like things started to go downhill with the badly received Too Human, and the whole X-Men fiasco.
SeanNoonan
Member
That's really similar!
I smell a lawsuit.
Captain N. Tenneal
Member
Great read - sadly many of Nintendo's former partners suffer the same fate. How quickly things fall apart when you don't have that steady, assured guidance to keep you on track. And, of course, the big-headed blustery "I wanna do my OWN thing" that causes these companies to splinter away from that guidance and into development hell.
Very similar to George Lucas and the original Star Wars trilogy vs. the later movies. With all of the first trilogy, the studio assigned him really experienced keepers to make sure he didn't get off track - but then the movies ended up being so successful, he was able to finagle doing things his way...and, well, we see how that ended up creatively for the last 3 movies and the property in general.
Very similar to George Lucas and the original Star Wars trilogy vs. the later movies. With all of the first trilogy, the studio assigned him really experienced keepers to make sure he didn't get off track - but then the movies ended up being so successful, he was able to finagle doing things his way...and, well, we see how that ended up creatively for the last 3 movies and the property in general.
Well, in the pre-release Q&A linked earlier, Dyack himself said that TTS would have framerate drops, but that he still thought TTS was graphically better than MGS2 because he was (perhaps ineffectively) using higher-res textures than MGS2 did. And he said TTS also had better shadows and more complicated AI than MGS2.
I just remember Dyack saying that after their porting, the engine ran __% faster on GameCube than it did on PS2, and that extra power could theoretically be used to increase the framerate or resolution or polygon count, or whatever. And I think he said that the Xbox version could've done the same, but it was a lazy port. Which doesn't surprise me, because the Xbox and GameCube often beat the PS2 when they had a level playing field.
But comparing an uprezzed PSX game to MGS2 is kind of apples-to-oranges. If SK had put the MGS2 assets back into the game engine without significantly altering the game plan, then the comparison would've been apples-to-apples easy. Of course, it's entirely possible that Dyack was just blowing smoke.
And I think a perfect port of MGS2 with nothing more than some Mario & Yoshi easter eggs would have made a lot of Cube owners drool. Would've sold at least as well as Twin Snakes.
I quote.
So sad about their closure, so gratefull for Eternal Darkness, for their support to Kain and in general for their Lovecraft mood.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Me, too. The game certainly has plenty of flaws, but as far as I'm concerned, it transcends them.
We'll never know the truth but given the impression we have from the ex-employees after the X-Men Destiny fiasco I have to really call into question Dyak's management even from the early years. The only evidence we have that all these games were "so close to release" is Dyak's word and... given his behaviour on Destiny I don't think his word is something we can trust. It seems like the approach to game design they had there was not something they just started doing in the final hours.
I have to wonder how many times Dyak and Silicon Knights strung along their publishers with misleading prototypes and the promise of a game-changing product that "just needs a few more months."
I don't think it's any coincidence that their best games were under Nintendo who took a very heavy handed approach with their partnership and basically kept on the developer for the entire process. Likewise, it's not really surprising that all these canceled games are with developers that just sit back and wait for things to roll in to them.
I'm humoured how Dyak went from saying "Nintendo is the best company in the world and we're best friends forever!" to "screw those guys and their kiddie games and direction." He seems like he would have been a peach to deal with even from the get go.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I think there's more to that story than what we know. I mean, the change to his attitude seems too drastic to be spurred solely by Nintendo's choice to release a console with underpowered hardware.