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tearsintherain · Jul 22, 2017

Alan Wake
GTA 3 and the sides, 5
Red Dead Redemption
The Last of Us
Uncharted
Bioshock
Mafia 2 & 3
Dishonored 1 & 2
LA Noire
some of the Telltale games
Assassins Creed 2, 4, hopefully Origins
Horizon Zero Dawn

all games that had very immersive stories imo.

fuzaco · Jul 22, 2017

tearsintherain said:
Alan Wake
GTA 3 and the sides, 5
Red Dead Redemption
The Last of Us
Uncharted
Bioshock
Mafia 2 & 3
Dishonored 1 & 2
LA Noire
some of the Telltale games
Assassins Creed 2, 4, hopefully Origins
Horizon Zero Dawn

all games that had very immersive stories imo.

Not RPGs though.

jdstorm · Jul 23, 2017

fuzaco said:
Not RPGs though.

Well whats your definition of an RPG?

That list is a bit hit and miss. But there are a fair few games i would consider RPGson that list.

autoduelist · Jul 23, 2017

fuzaco said:
Not RPGs though.

Not even close. That list is actually a great example of the issues with defining 'role playing' as 'taking on a defined role'... all of a sudden Uncharted is a RPG because we're 'role playing' Nathan Drake. I'm much more comfortable with the blank slate definition, where the entire mechanics of the game revolve around building up a undefined character as you see fit.

jdstorm said:
Well whats your definition of an RPG?

That list is a bit hit and miss. But there are a fair few games i would consider RPGson that list.

Horizon is the only one on that list, maybe? As a loose definition - honestly, it's more of an action game with light RPG trappings. I don't think any of the others even qualify. If someone is telling me a game is an RPG, I'd be damn pissed if I brought home Assassin's Creed or Uncharted or GTA, etc. If we're going to cast that wide of net, every game is an RPG. Especially in recent years, now that every genre has adopted skill trees, side quests, etc.

RPG - as many of the below as possible:
1) real choice & consequence
2) real choice in character development [ie, every player is not becoming the same exact character once we level our skill tree]
3) questing and killing for experience to level up in a meaningful way [see #2]
4) multiple ways to solve every quest [kill vs convince vs steal, etc]
5) preferably, the failure or success of actions is based on the character's stats, not player ability [ie, being bad with a bow means you miss, no matter how good of aim the player using the controller has]

granted, jrpgs have muddied the water some because they define rpg quite differently and offer up a more 'hand crafted' story and characters with rpg mechanics behind them.

But in no case is playing Uncharted a rpg.

Hopeford · Jul 23, 2017

Szadek said:
Does that mean that you never played the holy grail of RPG's known as Baldurs Gate 2.

Not yet, but always meant to. Certain games I'm more okay with it than others - I especially dislike games where you are treated as a magical messiah that everyone's will bends to and that everyone wants to date. It gets kind of...I don't know, it feels like the game is trying to suck up to the player too hard and it doesn't work for me. I don't like "self-insert" stories.

Stuff like New Vegas though? I'm perfectly fine with it. I love the way New Vegas did it, where they gave you a perfect setup so that your character could be basically anyone, with any motivation, and the story lets you play it off that way. It also is written well enough that the player character(despite accomplishing a number of things) feels less like a magical messiah and more like a person in the right place at the right time.

The protagonist in New Vegas isn't something I love per se, but he is the reason you can interact with the world the way you do and that's wonderfully done.

It's hard to explain where I draw the line. It's probably easier to say that I get more invested in the plot if the character is well-defined and not silent, but that certain types of games can pull me in if they put in the work. And there are certain types of plots/settings that really are a hard pass on me if the protagonist is "customizable character X" like Xenoblade Chronicles.

Szadek · Jul 23, 2017

autoduelist said:
Not even close. That list is actually a great example of the issues with defining 'role playing' as 'taking on a defined role'... all of a sudden Uncharted is a RPG because we're 'role playing' Nathan Drake. I'm much more comfortable with the blank slate definition, where the entire mechanics of the game revolve around building up a undefined character as you see fit.

Now you are just being silly.
Next to nobody calls most these game RPG's, because they lack RPG mechanics.

autoduelist · Jul 23, 2017

Szadek said:
Now you are just being silly.
Next to nobody calls most these game RPG's, because they lack RPG mechanics.

That was my point. I was illustrating the issue with using the other definition of 'role playing' some use - it is far to broad, like you say [and I said].

fuzaco · Jul 23, 2017

jdstorm said:
Well whats your definition of an RPG?

That list is a bit hit and miss. But there are a fair few games i would consider RPGson that list.

Leveling up, stats, gear, character customization (throughout the game, not necessarily creation). Basically higher freedom about what you do with your character(s). It's a weird genre for sure, but the games on that list never felt like RPGs to me. Horizon maybe? Don't know much about it.

I guess what you consider and RPG is subjective, I mean even JRPGs and WRPGs are so different that they're hardly the same genre, but don't tell me yo think stuff like the Telltale games or Uncharted are RPGs.

Tenrius · Jul 23, 2017

Fou-Lu said:
Most video games aren't like tabletop RPGs where there is a GM to adapt the story to the created characters.

Exactly. Creating your own character makes sense in tabletop games because there's an actual person dynamically adapting the story. It's not really possible to the same extent in video games, so many games with a created character end up having to keep things very vague, addressing most player-created characters more or less the same in all situations. This applies to even the most accomplished WRPGs like Baldur's Gate or Fallout your character is relegated to a strictly defined role of an outsider nobody really knows anything about.

On the other hand, predefined character like Geralt obviously takes away one aspect of tabletop creating a character you like, but gives the protagonist a much bigger presence within the game's universe and its story. So in that sense, it's like picking a predefined character and playing with an actual DM, as opposed to your character being a non-presence inside the game.

Of course, there's also the sense of ownership that comes with creating your own characters, giving them a backstory, etc. It seems like a great deal of people prefer to boil role-playing down to this (like the respected author of the post I'll quote below) and that's fine. As ever, this argument might be more about definitions than anything else.

autoduelist said:
While I generally agree with your assessment, I just wanted to note I never feel like I'm "playing a role" when I'm playing a fixed character. I don't connect 'as' the character, it's more like I'm seeing someone else's story. I'm not 'role playing' as Aloy or Gestalt, rather, I'm just along for the ride, a watcher looking in.

Whereas I -love- blank slate RPGs. It doesn't matter that the story often isn't as deep [because you leave far more room for the player to decide what to do instead of creating 'focused experiences', as you call them], it's that I can let myself 'be' the characters.

I find far more investment in my hand rolled 'rogue turned paladin' that resides mostly in my head than I do if you hand craft me a story.

If my hand rolled, custom named, group of 4 blank slate characters [half-Ogre! grizzled warrior! fire mage! healer!] find themselves too deep in a dungeon and need to get out, pronto, before they get party-wiped and I lose them to permadeath... I legitimately care. I invested hours upon hours into them. I literally don't care if [insert Gestalt or Aloy or any pre-made character] dies, because it's just reload and retry... they aren't going anywhere. I didn't make them. I'm just following along with them.

For example here: from my point of view, "being the characters" actually depends on how the game reacts to them, if you take tabletop role-playing as a referene point. Playing out scenarios in your head is absolutely legit as well, but it's a somewhat different story in my opinion.

jdstorm · Jul 23, 2017

fuzaco said:
Leveling up, stats, gear, character customization (throughout the game, not necessarily creation). Basically higher freedom about what you do with your character(s). It's a weird genre for sure, but the games on that list never felt like RPGs to me. Horizon maybe? Don't know much about it.

I guess what you consider and RPG is subjective, I mean even JRPGs and WRPGs are so different that they're hardly the same genre, but don't tell me yo think stuff like the Telltale games or Uncharted are RPGs.

The Uncharted Series is something i definitely wouldn't consider an RPG. Although i can see a case being made for Tomb Raider 2013 and its sequel if you were to consider Horizon Zero Dawn an RPG.

In general i think that RPG comonly tends to refer to Adventure games just as much as actual role playing games. This muddies the water a fair bit. Because of this i personally keep a pretty broad definition when it comes to the term RPG. My definition is usually an adventure game with some form of Skilltree leveling system and or a Gear/loot system.

Edit: Also OP if you loved The Witcher 3 you will probably enjoy Yakuza 0

More_Badass · Jul 23, 2017

tearsintherain said:
Alan Wake
GTA 3 and the sides, 5
Red Dead Redemption
The Last of Us
Uncharted
Bioshock
Mafia 2 & 3
Dishonored 1 & 2
LA Noire
some of the Telltale games
Assassins Creed 2, 4, hopefully Origins
Horizon Zero Dawn

all games that had very immersive stories imo.

Not really what we're talking about

Immersive sims and games like Stalker are the closest to "role playing" games outside of RPG. Simply having a set character isn't enough, like Uncharted or Last of Us and so on.

You need to have the freedom to make choices and customize your character within the bounds of that character. Choice is key. That's the role playing part. Not just having a defined character to play as, but being able to make choices within the mindset and personality of that defined character

Renekton · Jul 23, 2017

More_Badass said:
Not just having a defined character to play as, but being able to make choices within the mindset and personality of that defined character

That rules out Nameless One as well 😗 since his amnesia gives him a blank slate. I figured he'd may have something defining like his ugliness, but lol Charisma 24.

Mephala · Jul 23, 2017

While not entirely the same I loved Shadowrun's approach to this. It gives you bits and pieces but let's imagination do the rest.

Dragonfall - You left your previous home to join up with your friend Monika in Berlin, your personality and history varies based on dialogue choices but in most cases it is obvious that you are still an experienced criminal. You are not a rookie despite being new to the team and as the game goes on you fill in the leader role as well as care taker for the town you are in.
The etiquette perks are also interesting. The ability to take a perk that allows you to speak and act convincingly with different social groups such as corporate people or gangsters or socialites.

Hong Kong - You are not an experienced criminal or at least not an actual Shadowrunner. Your brother is part of an elite security police force when the two of you get dragged into story events. Your past is explored through discussion with your family but you build on your friendships with other Shadowrunners.

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