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Jim Sterling vs David Jaffe: Debate on Used Games Market and Online Passes

AAK

Member
Jim Sterling is mainly against Online Passes, and then Jaffe stems that problem due to the current Used Games sale practices from retailers. Jaffe in the end says that a compromise needs to be made with the means in which retailers push the used games practice.
 
Jim Sterling is mainly against Online Passes, and then Jaffe stems that problem due to the current Used Games sale practices from retailers. Jaffe in the end says that a compromise needs to be made with the means in which retailers push the used games practice.

Another developer who is too much a pussy to stand up to Gamestop? It's ok, plenty of places for me to buy used games. Continue to lock content for end users because one retailer got too dominant, and you have no idea what to do with it.
 
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?
 

Suite Pee

Willing to learn
I disliked Sterling when I read his article about CoD/RPS, and now I like him a bit due to the dtoid podcasts. Will watch.

I imagine they'll touch on something similar to lending out e-books.
 
I really don't have anything against used games, and why woudl I ? Though I never cared for saving the 5 bucks comapred to new - but it's just interesting to note how much gamestop shoves that shit in your face.

I picked up Demon Souls a good year or so after it's release, got the GH version new and went up to the counter. The clerk tried to convince me to get used, and naturally - I refused. Again, saving 3 to 5 bucks isn't a big deal. Anyway she made the biggest notion that I was an idiot for not getting it used - after she made a 5 minute spiel about why I should get it used.

And I also remember a gentlemen trying to buy a new game, and the guy literally convinced the shit out of him to get the game used, after he literally said no to it like 5 times. It's almost like the clerk refused to ring up the game unless it was used. The guy finally just said "fine, sure - whatever, I'll get it used."

I can see how gaming devs are getting fed up with these used game sales. They seem to get it when people are seeking deals on older games or buy 2 get 1 free type deals, but it's gotten to the point where they are pushing used game sales to people even going in to the store with the full intention of buying new. Basically the act of buying a new game at gamestop has become a hassle relative to buying it new.

What these devs and publishers need to do is take it up with Gamestop, and not create a business model that burdens the consumer.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?

i guess it's the latter? for me anyway - i think it's a shame that we're in a state of "LOL game journalism", and i'm not fond of writers who seem to embody that, much less relish it - most of what ive seen from him (and what i've bothered with justin mcelroy) fits that bill.
i suppose i could be wrong about other stuff they do - it sounds like he's on the right side of this debate.
 

Fjordson

Member
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?
I think he gets a bit antagonistic with his articles and reviews or something. I've seen in passing topics about it in the past here on GAF, though I don't read Destructoid so I'm not sure exactly. I actually like him. Dude is great on the Electric Hydra podcast.
 

KAL2006

Banned
I wouldn't mind Online passes, and used games not working if games where much cheaper. Instead of games being $60, they should be $30, this way more people would have the money to buy more games.
 
Haven't listened to the interview but the used game bullshit rubs me the wrong way. The way publishers and developers make it seem like the reason the game industry is fucked up because of used games really pisses me off. Budgets and unrealistic expectations as well as shitty games close studios; not used games.
 

Proven

Member
I really don't have anything against used games, and why woudl I ? Though I never cared for saving the 5 bucks comapred to new - but it's just interesting to note how much gamestop shoves that shit in your face.

I picked up Demon Souls a good year or so after it's release, got the GH version new and went up to the counter. The clerk tried to convince me to get used, and naturally - I refused. Again, saving 3 to 5 bucks isn't a big deal. Anyway she made the biggest notion that I was an idiot for not getting it used - after she made a 5 minute spiel about why I should get it used.

And I also remember a gentlemen trying to buy a new game, and the guy literally convinced the shit out of him to get the game used, after he literally said no to it like 5 times. It's almost like the clerk refused to ring up the game unless it was used. The guy finally just said "fine, sure - whatever, I'll get it used."

I can see how gaming devs are getting fed up with these used game sales. They seem to get it when people are seeking deals on older games or buy 2 get 1 free type deals, but it's gotten to the point where they are pushing used game sales to people even going in to the store with the full intention of buying new. Basically the act of buying a new game at gamestop has become a hassle relative to buying it new.

What these devs and publishers need to do is take it up with Gamestop, and not create a business model that burdens the consumer.

It's because of shit like this that if I want to buy a game new, I just order it online, usually from Amazon. If I want it used, I only resort to Gamestop when Amazon and eBay fail me, which is never.
 
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?
I'm mainly a PC gamer, so he has given me good reasons to hate his writing.
 
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?

That and his reviews at times appear more sensationalistic than anything.
 
Why is there so much hatred towards Jim Sterling?
I watched a bunch of his Jimquisition episodes and he seems to make pretty good arguments, even though I didn't agree with all of them.
Is it mostly his character that he plays?


It's nothing to do with Jimquisition, it's his articles on Destructoid.

He's actually toned it down a bit, but a year ago he was easily my most hated figure in the entire industry. He was basically nothing but a troll.
 

Kusagari

Member
I can see why people dislike Sterling, but at least he has unique viewpoints and does a decent job of backing them up. I'd prefer him anyday over most people in the gaming media.
 
I really don't have anything against used games, and why woudl I ? Though I never cared for saving the 5 bucks comapred to new - but it's just interesting to note how much gamestop shoves that shit in your face.

I picked up Demon Souls a good year or so after it's release, got the GH version new and went up to the counter. The clerk tried to convince me to get used, and naturally - I refused. Again, saving 3 to 5 bucks isn't a big deal. Anyway she made the biggest notion that I was an idiot for not getting it used - after she made a 5 minute spiel about why I should get it used.

And I also remember a gentlemen trying to buy a new game, and the guy literally convinced the shit out of him to get the game used, after he literally said no to it like 5 times. It's almost like the clerk refused to ring up the game unless it was used. The guy finally just said "fine, sure - whatever, I'll get it used."

I can see how gaming devs are getting fed up with these used game sales. They seem to get it when people are seeking deals on older games or buy 2 get 1 free type deals, but it's gotten to the point where they are pushing used game sales to people even going in to the store with the full intention of buying new. Basically the act of buying a new game at gamestop has become a hassle relative to buying it new.

What these devs and publishers need to do is take it up with Gamestop, and not create a business model that burdens the consumer.


Why not just say that you'd like to support the developer and see the money spread relatively fairly, rather than giving it all to a company that's done little to earn it
 
D

Deleted member 81567

Unconfirmed Member
Sterling's reviews are shit.

Everything else is fine. Really with him on this.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Like a boss.

Jsterling.jpg


And I agree with Sterling, although I have no problem seeing why developers dislike used game sales.
 

AEREC

Member
Haven't listened to the interview but the used game bullshit rubs me the wrong way. The way publishers and developers make it seem like the reason the game industry is fucked up because of used games really pisses me off. Budgets and unrealistic expectations as well as shitty games close studios; not used games.

I really dont get all the hate towards Devs and publisher stance on used games. I mean they see no money when someone buys their product used, when that could have been a new sale and got the money for their work...instead of the customer saving $5 only to cheat the dev out of whatever their cut is.

I dont really have a firm stance on used games, I dont buy used games unless it's an out of print title on ebay. But I do sell games back to amazon on occasion and I prefer digital copies of games when they are available.

I just cant bring myself to get mad at publishers for trying to make as much money as they can off something they made and using the DLC and Online Pass tactics to make sure they see some money from their product.
 

bc226

Member
Not sure why some folks hate Gamestop so much i have never had a problem or had anyone try to force me to buy used over new i just go in buy what i want and have never gotten the whole spiel about buying used games or even the game informer spiel. Has for money going towards developers they already got paid the instant the game went retail why should they be paid twice makes no sense. I mean after all for a used to game to exist someone at one time had to buy it new.
 

AEREC

Member
Not sure why some folks hate Gamestop so much i have never had a problem or had anyone try to force me to buy used over new i just go in buy what i want and have never gotten the whole spiel about buying used games or even the game informer spiel. Has for money going towards developers they already got paid the instant the game went retail why should they be paid twice makes no sense. I mean after all for a used to game to exist someone at one time had to buy it new.


They sell used games as new and try to guilt trip you into preordering everytime you purchase something from their store.

Also devs are not asking to be paid twice...they would rather a new customer buy a new copy of their game instead of used.
 
I wouldn't mind Online passes, and used games not working if games where much cheaper. Instead of games being $60, they should be $30, this way more people would have the money to buy more games.

We should dictate their prices because we want everything day1. Where is the concept of waiting like we do for tech stuff most of the time?
 

salpa

Banned
I really don't have anything against used games, and why woudl I ? Though I never cared for saving the 5 bucks comapred to new - but it's just interesting to note how much gamestop shoves that shit in your face.

I picked up Demon Souls a good year or so after it's release, got the GH version new and went up to the counter. The clerk tried to convince me to get used, and naturally - I refused. Again, saving 3 to 5 bucks isn't a big deal. Anyway she made the biggest notion that I was an idiot for not getting it used - after she made a 5 minute spiel about why I should get it used.

And I also remember a gentlemen trying to buy a new game, and the guy literally convinced the shit out of him to get the game used, after he literally said no to it like 5 times. It's almost like the clerk refused to ring up the game unless it was used. The guy finally just said "fine, sure - whatever, I'll get it used."

I can see how gaming devs are getting fed up with these used game sales. They seem to get it when people are seeking deals on older games or buy 2 get 1 free type deals, but it's gotten to the point where they are pushing used game sales to people even going in to the store with the full intention of buying new. Basically the act of buying a new game at gamestop has become a hassle relative to buying it new.

What these devs and publishers need to do is take it up with Gamestop, and not create a business model that burdens the consumer.

I've been to maybe 11 or 12 different Gamestops in my life. I never buy used. The only game I have ever purchased used was MW2. I was never asked things like "Would you like to buy it used?".

I see some critiques of Gamestop from specific stores where people seem to think those kinds of tactics are prevalent everywhere. They're not. Every single Gamestop I have been to has been filled with nice people who genuinely seemed interested in what I was buying, and helping me get the most out of the experience. When I bought FF13, me and the guy talked for like a half hour about our love of FF games. He didn't try to sell me anything else, he actually offered to help me himself if I had a problem instead of buying the strategy guide.

Gamestop has some shady employees, but there are good people who work there. It pains me to see people imply that the whole damn operation is evil just because of a few bad occurances.
 
i guess it's the latter? for me anyway - i think it's a shame that we're in a state of "LOL game journalism"

At least he's ridiculous with no pretense of taking himself seriously, and not ridiculous while believing he genuinely has some sort of level of importance. For the latter, see www.kotaku.com
What Jim also does is openly acknowledge and laugh about the intense amount of hatred he gets on the internet. When he's being so laid back about it, it makes all those who go out of their way to spread hate about him look pretty pathetic indeed.

Also, I don't know why something as divisive and objectively absurd as video gaming has to be reported on seriously. It's something Edge tries to do, and they just come off as pretentious.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Any developer who wants to cripple my resale value incase I think their game is shit will NEVER get me to buy their games new.


It's bad enough if I buy a 60$ game new I think sucks, it's even worse when I can only sell it for 35-40 instead of 45+


I bought Skyrim new and haven't sold it, why? They have proven in the past that they have good/great DLC for reasonable prices. The single player took months to get through due to the amount of content.

Also bought Gears new, knew that due to the popularity that even if I didn't care for it I'd be able to get most of my money back. Ended up keeping for 2-3 months since I was enjoying horde/beast. Still got 40$ for it when I sold it, would have gotten less if it had an online pass.

If your game is great the vast majority of used sales/used players will be 9-12 months down the line.

If there are dozens of used copies of your game on gamestops shelves the first month of release? Your game sucked/was lacking content.

Edit: Short great games are fine, just price them accordingly if you are going to cry about used games like a spoiled fucking child.



Online passes are why I've gone from 10-12 retail NEW games a year to 2-3.

Games that I planned on buying new/would have bought new but I rented/bought used instead?

Just off the top of my head/recent

Uncharted 3
Saint's Row 3
UFC Undisputed 3
MassEffect 3 (even though this will be hard to stick to since I'm so excited)
Batman AC (old roommate still never got a working catwoman code despite buying new and harassing WB about it)
AC - Revelations
KOA Reckoning
SSX
Battlefield 3
LA Noire - First Rockstar game this generation I didn't buy day 1/keep


So as of now online passes are reducing my gaming budget by 75%+ which is actually awesome. Thanks for encouraging me not to support you at all games industry, it lets me eat out at overpriced but great restaurants more and do shit like take the cruise I took this Xmas.
 

bc226

Member
They sell used games as new and try to guilt trip you into preordering everytime you purchase something from their store.

Nope never had it happen to me if i want used i buy used if i want new i buy new they do not try to sell me anything if i do not ask guess you just got a bad store and also the whole 5$ off thing is BS if your a power up reward member you get a lot more then 5$ off new games i average 15 to 20 off new or 10% used and when i trade in my games i get on average 15 to 30% more then normal rates.
 

AEREC

Member
I've been to maybe 11 or 12 different Gamestops in my life. I never buy used. The only game I have ever purchased used was MW2. I was never asked things like "Would you like to buy it used?".

I see some critiques of Gamestop from specific stores where people seem to think those kinds of tactics are prevalent everywhere. They're not. Every single Gamestop I have been to has been filled with nice people who genuinely seemed interested in what I was buying, and helping me get the most out of the experience. When I bought FF13, me and the guy talked for like a half hour about our love of FF games. He didn't try to sell me anything else, he actually offered to help me himself if I had a problem instead of buying the strategy guide.

Gamestop has some shady employees, but there are good people who work there. It pains me to see people imply that the whole damn operation is evil just because of a few bad occurances.

It's actually pretty damn common...otherwise they would not have that kind of reputation. Ya there are some non-pushy gamestop employees/store but those are not the norm.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
They sell used games as new and try to guilt trip you into preordering everytime you purchase something from their store.

Gamestop in the US might be horrible, but over here I've never, not once, been pestered when shopping there, and I've never seen them try to sell used games as new. All the employees have been genuinely nice people, and none of them have ever pestered me about pre-orders, buying used instead of new, or subscriptions. The only thing they ask is whether I want game protection or not, which I'll just decline, and that's all.
 

Volimar

Member
Sterling is an admitted asshole. But he's entertaining. I loved the way he and Max Scoville acted in the lead up to the Skyrim release.

Used games are necessary if you're going to release games at $60. Trading in old games is the only way a lot of people can get new titles. Two things that really bug me regarding Gamestop etc. though are:

1). Used games that cost nearly as much as new games, and used copies being available at launch? WTF?

2). Getting shit credit for your trade ins while the games then get incredible mark ups. Profit is fine, but God damn...

Gamestop in the US might be horrible, but over here I've never, not once, been pestered when shopping there, and I've never seen them try to sell used games as new. All the employees have been genuinely nice people, and none of them have ever pestered me about pre-orders, buying used instead of new, or subscriptions. The only thing they ask is whether I want game protection or not, which I'll just decline, and that's all.


I've had people ask me about preorders when we're talking games, but I wouldn't say I feel pestered. I imagine it varies store to store. Got some good employees at mine, though the launch "parties" are incredibly lame.
 

bc226

Member
It's actually pretty damn common...otherwise they would not have that kind of reputation. Ya there are some non-pushy gamestop employees/store but those are not the norm.

I will bet the good stores out weigh the bad stores by 10 to 1 you don't get over 8000 stores with a bad rep it just doesn't happen.
 

AEREC

Member
I will bet the good stores out weigh the bad stores by 10 to 1 you don't get over 8000 stores with a bad rep it just doesn't happen.

Ok so you go to a "good" gamestop (or you work for them). It really doesnt change my opinion about the gamestops that I have been to in the past.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Online Passes have not affected be because I do not sell games and do not buy used, but they bug me because I freaking hate putting in those stupid codes. Come up with a better system please, such as biometric readers or blood extraction devices. That will work.
 
Online Passes have not affected be because I do not sell games and do not buy used, but they bug me because I freaking hate putting in those stupid codes. Come up with a better system please, such as biometric readers or blood extraction devices. That will work.

But you just put it in once per game, takes like 30 seconds. Only way I could see that being a big annoyance is if you buy like 20 games a month or something.
 

bluehat9

Member
Online Passes have not affected be because I do not sell games and do not buy used, but they bug me because I freaking hate putting in those stupid codes. Come up with a better system please, such as biometric readers or blood extraction devices. That will work.

Place to burn your fingerprint onto the disc with acid (one time use only) and a fingerprint scanner on the console to verify.
 

Machine

Member
I really dont get all the hate towards Devs and publisher stance on used games. I mean they see no money when someone buys their product used, when that could have been a new sale and got the money for their work...instead of the customer saving $5 only to cheat the dev out of whatever their cut is.

So I can buy a used car, live in a 100-year old house that has had several owners before me, wear second-hand clothing, read a book from the library, buy music from a used record store, etc. but I can't buy a used game? Why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from the used products market when everything else in life, besides food, can be bought and sold in a used condition? It's this logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale used to justify it that gets me.
 
Is it true that Online Passes have been relegated to PS3 exclusives since the latter part of 2011.

Anyone got a list of upcoming xbox games that have it (multi or exclusive)?
 
I don't think it's too far fetched to say that gaming is a luxury activity, at least, based on what they want you to pay for new games ($60).
 

bc226

Member
So I can buy a used car, live in a 100-year old house that has had several owners before me, wear second-hand clothing, read a book from the library, buy music from a used record store, etc. but I can't buy a used game? Why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from the used products market when everything else in life, besides food, can be bought and sold in a used condition? It's this logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale used to justify it that gets me.

here is something even better for all those who feel a need to support the developer you do know that they already got paid the instant the game was finished and that all sales already were paid for buy the folks in retail.
 

AEREC

Member
So I can buy a used car, live in a 100-year old house that has had several owners before me, wear second-hand clothing, read a book from the library, buy music from a used record store, etc. but I can't buy a used game? Why are game devs/publishers magically exempt from the used products market when everything else in life, besides food, can be bought and sold in a used condition? It's this logical disconnect and the convoluted rationale used to justify it that gets me.

Your logic is that everything is the same...that there are no differences between the real estate industry, the record industry, movie industry, automobile industry, etc...

My point is I dont blame the devs or publishers for trying to find a way around used sales. If a record company wants to start selling online codes in order to play thier CD's thats fine by me...they have every right to protect their product.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
But you just put it in once per game, takes like 30 seconds. Only way I could see that being a big annoyance is if you buy like 20 games a month or something.

The "new game" routine is so ridiculous. Buy game. Install. Patch. Input online pass code. Input codes for RETAILER EXCLUSIVE BONUSES. Check for DLC. Finally play.

This is a shit user experience.
 

Massa

Member
The "new game" routine is so ridiculous. Buy game. Install. Patch. Input online pass code. Input codes for RETAILER EXCLUSIVE BONUSES. Check for DLC. Finally play.

This is a shit user experience.

I wonder how long they'll take to use a camera to read the online pass.
 

bc226

Member
When and if the publishers ever get used game sales stopped they will be in violation of the law namely the First sale doctrine just like all those who really believe the nest xbox would not allow used game to play they would also be breaking the law to put it simply:

The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell, lend or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy ends once ownership of that copy has passed to someone else, as long as the copy itself is not an infringing copy. This doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule."
 
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