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Jim Sterling vs David Jaffe: Debate on Used Games Market and Online Passes

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
No, its not. My town has 5 gamestops. That shit never happens. Saying something has a reputation because it has a reputation so obviously its true is the same reason stereotypes exist. Well, everything SAYS "X" so obviously "X" is true, right?

That means the people at your Gamestops aren't pushing the company agenda. They push used games because profit is much larger than new games. You trade game X for $20, they sell game X for $55 = $35. They sell game X new, they profit 10-15 bucks.

Easy to see why they push used like a drug dealer.

Pre-orders are pushed as a way to get money to stay with Gamestop. Locking your pre-order in, means most lazy people won't cancel even if the price drops somewhere else (Amazon, Newegg, etc) and they still get the money and hopefully lock you in to future sells as well.

Then again, used sales is really the only way for Gamestop to actually stay in business.
 
This is commonly said because they gut nearly all new games. You have no idea whether the disc you're receiving is truly new. For instance, even if it didn't come from a previous owner, it's possible it was used as a demo or was borrowed by one of the employees.

Online passes were brought up a lot in this, but no one talked about Gamestop possibly taking them out of the games before they were sold. They did this with Deus ex HR when they had a free token for onlive. I think that when they start tossing the online pass as well, uninformed consumers will just think that it's the publishers making them pay extra.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
No, that's been the fundamental problem with full retail DD games on consoles. Lack of HD space. When your market has from 0 to 320gb of space you don't have a full market to deliver too. Why would publishers want to commit to a full DD system that blocks out a large chunk of their market?

When HD space is no longer an issue (next gen) then that disappears and the full market has the open space to go full DD. Sure there are people without broadband access, but the % of people who own a PC and Console the % is quite high.

We won't see a full blown DD system of Day1 releases this gen, for that reason.
.

Who says they need to go DD only. Just make it a great option for gamers done right. There is no reason they can't do DD right this generation. Sony and MS already have online stores that sell full retail games already. The issue is there is absolutely no reason outside convince for anyone to go DD. Even on the new PS Vita there is no reason besides convenience to go DD. If sony and MS started to offer day 1 DD games at 40 or 45 it would give people a reason to do it The problem with DD for the big 3 right now is not drive space it is the model they use. Why go DD when I can get the retail game for less and can resell it.
 

bc226

Member
This was one of the most interesting industry discussions I've listened to in a while. They got into a lot of interesting stuff besides just the online pass thing. I found Jaffe's analogy of how if Michael Bay made video game's the way he makes movies then he'd get awards every year particularly poignant, and I agree that that type of attitude needs to change.

The used games situation is a very difficult. Online passes and such are definitely anti-consumer and extremely annoying to deal with, but Gamestop's aggressive approach with used games is extremely anti-developer. If Gamestop had their way, they would buy only a handful of copies of each game and just keep reselling them, and hence every developer would go under, so I don't think you can take the black and white view and say that used games are a purely good thing.

I suppose it doesn't really matter since everything is going digital. I think my biggest takeaway here is that flexible pricing is definitely the way forward for the industry.

If Digital really is the future then why is it Digital only devices seem to not be selling so well i mean look at the PSPgo it is pretty much a failure and the Vita so far in Japan isnt doing to much better.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
This is commonly said because they gut nearly all new games. You have no idea whether the disc you're receiving is truly new. For instance, even if it didn't come from a previous owner, it's possible it was used as a demo or was borrowed by one of the employees.

I have an idea because every new game I've bought at Gamestop has been shrinkwrapped. The non-shrinkwrapped they've had have always been for display purposes.
 
I still don't get it.

Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property.

Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.
 

bc226

Member
I still don't get it.

Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property.

Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.

You seem to get it i mean to put in the simplest of terms once i buy something its mine to do with whatever i feel like and i owe the one that made it nothing else from that point on.
 
I still don't get it.

Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property.

Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.



This is what i don't understand either. I do understand that used items don't give the creators money, but this hardly specific to videogames. And you don't see any other industry doing things to their customers that videogames do.
 

bc226

Member
Here is the thing no matter what a publisher says or a developer says regarding used sales is gonna mean anything because the very vast majority of consumers are not going to give to bits worth matter of fact everything we talk about most consumers will never care about.

I mean really has far has they are concerned if a dev goes under oh well its not me.
 

AngryMoth

Member
If Digital really is the future then why is it Digital only devices seem to not be selling so well i mean look at the PSPgo it is pretty much a failure and the Vita so far in Japan isnt doing to much better.
PSP Go failed because it was twice as expensive as it had any right to be. That is a fact. As for the Vita..well lets not go there. Its too soon to tell anyway. Also to list a few counter examples; the App Store, the rise in digital sales on PSN and XBL, the fact that the profit margins are way better on digital sales so tech companies want to push the industry in that direct. I could go on.
 
I often hear shit like "Well, a used car has wear and tear and doesn't have X service or Y feature..." as if a used copy of a video game somehow has no wear and tear? Sometimes is missing its case? My used DVDs sometimes have little scratches on the surface. Or the box is dirty and scuffed. But apparently this isn't true in the magic world of video games, who defy the laws of entropy.
 
No. They'll gut 1-4 copies per game as display copies. If there's 20 copies of a game in stock, the vast majority are going to stay shrinkwrapped. Most of the time, when you buy new at GameStop, you're going to get sealed.
I have literally never bought a game at Gamestop that has been sealed. Every god damn copy of any game I've bought there is always their "last copy." And I've bought a lot of games there.

Again, this is not an exaggeration. And I have 5 Gamestops in my area.

I have never gotten a sealed game from Gamestop. Ever.
 

bc226

Member
PSP Go failed because it was twice as expensive as it had any right to be. That is a fact. As for the Vita..well lets not go there. Its too soon to tell anyway. Also to list a few counter examples; the App Store, the rise in digital sales on PSN and XBL, the fact that the profit margins are way better on digital sales so tech companies want to push the industry in that direct. I could go on.

Regards to the App store were most apps are 99 cents you mean i wonder if that low price might have anything to do with it? And the same thing for PSN and XBL sell it cheap you will sell more.
 
I often hear shit like "Well, a used car has wear and tear and doesn't have X service or Y feature..." as if a used copy of a video game somehow has no wear and tear? Sometimes is missing its case? My used DVDs sometimes have little scratches on the surface. Or the box is dirty and scuffed. But apparently this isn't true in the magic world of video games, who defy the laws of entropy.
that's just how things are. In the gaming industry publishers have to be coddled whether it's by consumers, journalists, retailers, anything. If not they start punishing consumers.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
.

Who says they need to go DD only. Just make it a great option for gamers done right. There is no reason they can't do DD right this generation. Sony and MS already have online stores that sell full retail games already. The issue is there is absolutely no reason outside convince for anyone to go DD. Even on the new PS Vita there is no reason besides convenience to go DD. If sony and MS started to offer day 1 DD games at 40 or 45 it would give people a reason to do it The problem with DD for the big 3 right now is not drive space it is the model they use. Why go DD when I can get the retail game for less and can resell it.

It goes back to HD issues. I started with a 40gb PS3, and I filled that thing up with a handfull of PSN games and installs from PS3 games (remember MGS4?) and 40gb didn't go far at all.. was constantly having to maintain space and make choices of what to keep what to delete. No way I could easily have space for DD. Started with a 20gb 360, no install issues, but XBLA filled that up quickly as well.

I have a slim and put a new HD in my PS3 so I don't have space issues, but how many people recently bought 4gb Kinect bundles over the last year? Quite a few.

So you have half a market for DD because of space constraints, so developing a full fledged DD marketplace ala Steam just isn't a real focus this gen. I believe it will be next gen, mainly because broadband #'s are higher and HD space won't be an issue.

PC's got a head start on DD, because those with gaming PC's inevitably always had large HD's and broadband, and they've had it for years. Publishers and Devs were able to take advantage of it in ways that console publishers and devs haven't been able too.

I don't hear PC gamers bitching they can't sell their games, and not every PC game is priced cheaper than consoles. They also don't have physical media taking up real estate in their house.

I sell console games as well, mainly just to get rid of the damn things as I run out of room.
 

AngryMoth

Member
Regards to the App store were most apps are 99 cents you mean i wonder if that low price might have anything to do with it? And the same thing for PSN and XBL sell it cheap you will sell more.
Steam. Also most full price games aren't available digitally but that will change. There are already major steps towards this such as microsofts on demand service. I know that I would buy all my games digitally is I could anyway, especially with things l like steams preorder service where you pre download games and then can play them straight away at midnight.
 

bc226

Member
I have literally never bought a game at Gamestop that has been sealed. Every god damn copy of any game I've bought there is always their "last copy." And I've bought a lot of games there.

Again, this is not an exaggeration. And I have 5 Gamestops in my area.

I have never gotten a sealed game from Gamestop. Ever.

Sorry you have such crappy stores we all do not have that.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I still don't get it.

Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property.

Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.

The actual answer to this question is how rapidly profit margins have changed. Take any other industry, and they have no where NEAR the plummet in profitability videogames have undergone in just 20 years. Do entertainment markets decline? Yes, but it's usually a slower, gradual decline that gives them time to figure out how to properly address the issue in ways that aren't completely fucking stupid.

Games went from having HUGE returns to having minimal returns or massive losses, even on games that sell extremely well (see L.A. Noire) in a mere 20 years. This isn't like a stock market in decline; it's more akin to a stock market crash! And like most stock market crashes, it's caused by and fueled further by panicked individuals who are scared stiff because they can't just keep doing things the way they always have. Given such a short time frame makes most "experienced" people in a given field completely useless, and unfortunately they're the ones trying to solve the problem. And they're doing a great job of missing the forest for the trees, as it were.
 
It goes back to HD issues. I started with a 40gb PS3, and I filled that thing up with a handfull of PSN games and installs from PS3 games (remember MGS4?) and 40gb didn't go far at all.. was constantly having to maintain space and make choices of what to keep what to delete. No way I could easily have space for DD. Started with a 20gb 360, no install issues, but XBLA filled that up quickly as well.

I have a slim and put a new HD in my PS3 so I don't have space issues, but how many people recently bought 4gb Kinect bundles over the last year? Quite a few.

So you have half a market for DD because of space constraints, so developing a full fledged DD marketplace ala Steam just isn't a real focus this gen. I believe it will be next gen, mainly because broadband #'s are higher and HD space won't be an issue.

PC's got a head start on DD, because those with gaming PC's inevitably always had large HD's and broadband, and they've had it for years. Publishers and Devs were able to take advantage of it in ways that console publishers and devs haven't been able too.

I don't hear PC gamers bitching they can't sell their games, and not every PC game is priced cheaper than consoles. They also don't have physical media taking up real estate in their house.

I sell console games as well, mainly just to get rid of the damn things as I run out of room.


Digital is great. Until you realize that you are giving up your right to ownership over what you buy. You can't sell it. You can't trade it. You can't lend it to your friend. You give up any control whatsoever, up to and sometimes including the ability to access it. I was one of those who had games I bought through Direct2Drive magically disappear from existence because some numbers changed on a server, or the servers went dead, when they were bought out. That really, really soured me on this GLORIOUS DIGITAL FUTURE that awaits us. The counter arguement that "Steam is the Messiah who will never do that to you" is a fallacy. You're assuming that something in the future never comes to pass. It may seem impossible now, but I'd rather not wager my property on the whims of Top Businessmen.
 

AngryMoth

Member
Steam sell it cheap more sells so your point is?
Well yeah I definitely agree there are situations where that is true; like I said one of my takeaways from the podcast is that variable pricing is a good direction for the industry. I was using steam as a counterpoint to your assertion that the success of digital platforms such as the app store is because the games are cheaper (there are full price games of steam).
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Steam sell it cheap more sells so your point is?

Not always true, go tell me how much Skyrim and Kingdoms of Amalur cost right now.

Tell me how much Alan Wake is, then tell me how much the 360 copy is on Amazon.

All 3 are on the top sellers list.

Steam sales are fantastic, but they are usually discounting the hell out of games that are quite old. New games during Steam sells that are discounted are typically discounted less than you can find a new console game a month after release on sell "somewhere".
 

bc226

Member
Digital is great. Until you realize that you are giving up your right to ownership over what you buy. You can't sell it. You can't trade it. You can't lend it to your friend. You give up any control whatsoever, up to and sometimes including the ability to access it. I was one of those who had games I bought through Direct2Drive magically disappear from existence because some numbers changed on a server, or the servers went dead, when they were bought out. That really, really soured me on this GLORIOUS DIGITAL FUTURE that awaits us. The counter arguement that "Steam is the Messiah who will never do that to you" is a fallacy. You're assuming that something in the future never comes to pass. It may seem impossible now, but I'd rather not wager my property on the whims of Top Businessmen.

Lets not forget that when servers go offline by by to your game has well.
 
I really liked Jaffe's idea of exclusive windows of new only sales. Give a title 30 -60 days before selling used copies, then open up used sales.

I also have no problem with online passes.

Great podcast, though I wish they'd turn off their email/message alerts....
 
I really dont get all the hate towards Devs and publisher stance on used games. I mean they see no money when someone buys their product used, when that could have been a new sale and got the money for their work...instead of the customer saving $5 only to cheat the dev out of whatever their cut is.

I dont really have a firm stance on used games, I dont buy used games unless it's an out of print title on ebay. But I do sell games back to amazon on occasion and I prefer digital copies of games when they are available.

I just cant bring myself to get mad at publishers for trying to make as much money as they can off something they made and using the DLC and Online Pass tactics to make sure they see some money from their product.

This right here is the problem. I'm not CHEATING anyone out of anything. If I buy a car, clothes, sporting equipment, electronic, or anything used how am I cheating someone out of anything?

The fact that they've convinced some consumers that buying their product used is somehow unethical is nonsense.
 

StuBurns

Banned
I don't have any issue with online passes. I do have issues with the offline content stuff such as in that recent Oblivion like game or Batman, that's bullshit. But considering used gamers aren't supporting the publisher, I don't see why the publisher should support them with hosting games, match making etc.
 
Great podcast. I've learned a couple of things listening to this. I liked hearing both sides of the medal. Both Sterling and Jaffe made pretty good arguments.
 
The actual answer to this question is how rapidly profit margins have changed. Take any other industry, and they have no where NEAR the plummet in profitability videogames have undergone in just 20 years. Do entertainment markets decline? Yes, but it's usually a slower, gradual decline that gives them time to figure out how to properly address the issue in ways that aren't completely fucking stupid.

Games went from having HUGE returns to having minimal returns or massive losses, even on games that sell extremely well (see L.A. Noire) in a mere 20 years. This isn't like a stock market in decline; it's more akin to a stock market crash! And like most stock market crashes, it's caused by and fueled further by panicked individuals who are scared stiff because they can't just keep doing things the way they always have. Given such a short time frame makes most "experienced" people in a given field completely useless, and unfortunately they're the ones trying to solve the problem. And they're doing a great job of missing the forest for the trees, as it were.

L.A. Noire sold 5 million copies and had a budget of over $50 million. If it couldn't turn a profit after having 5 million copies sold, then that business model is inherently flawed. That's not the consumers fault, that's the fault of the people in charge that made a game that went over budget and took to long to make.

Also, can you show me a graph the the profit margins of games, studios, and publishers have declined over the years? Every stat I've seen has shown that the industry is growing year over year.
 
I picked up Demon Souls a good year or so after it's release, got the GH version new and went up to the counter. The clerk tried to convince me to get used, and naturally - I refused. Again, saving 3 to 5 bucks isn't a big deal. Anyway she made the biggest notion that I was an idiot for not getting it used - after she made a 5 minute spiel about why I should get it used..

This happened to me, the clerk refused to sell me what I wanted to buy, and made snarky comments about "oh, I wish I had your money" and "man, I wonder what it's like to be able to waste money," because I wanted the new game.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This right here is the problem. I'm not CHEATING anyone out of anything. If I buy a car, clothes, sporting equipment, electronic, or anything used how am I cheating someone out of anything?

The fact that they've convinced some consumers that buying their product used is somehow unethical is nonsense.

It's not nonsense... it's brilliant.

They've taken advantage of gamers' often irrational brand loyalty and obsession with identifying with developers and publishers, and idolizing game creators. Star power. Fashion.

When people go out shopping for a used fridge, a used car, or second hand furniture, they're not thinking "should I cheat makers of fine new products out of their hard earned money today?"

No, they're thinking "I can't afford to buy new on this," or "let's see if I can find a good deal on used before I buy new".

It's called bargain hunting for fuck's sake. Forget Gamestop. There's things called yard sales.

But, gamers have psychological triggers that can be manipulated due to how fandom works. The industry is trying really hard right now to sell this new tactic and see if they can't use it to patch over their flawed development funding and business models.
 

zroid

Banned
When people go out shopping for a used fridge, a used car, or second hand furniture, they're not thinking "should I cheat makers of fine new products out of their hard earned money today?"

No, they're thinking "I can't afford to buy new on this," or "let's see if I can find a good deal on used before I buy new".

I agree with you about how people have been manipulated by the industry. Still, to be entirely fair, buying a used game is decidedly not the same as buying any of the products you mentioned, or even game hardware, for instance. All of these things get evidently worn over time and their value and utility depreciates. Games' values usually depreciate over time as well, but only because of demand, not because the quality of the product has somehow lessened.

For a lot of people, there is literally no incentive to buy a video game new instead of used, because the product remains virtually identical, unless the buyer really cares about whether the box is still shiny. Therein lies the problem, and there's no straightforward solution, that's for sure.
 
I agree with you about how people have been manipulated by the industry. Still, to be entirely fair, buying a used game is decidedly not the same as buying any of the products you mentioned, or even game hardware, for instance. All of these things get evidently worn over time and their value and utility depreciates. Games' values usually depreciate over time as well, but only because of demand, not because the quality of the product has somehow lessened.

For a lot of people, there is literally no incentive to buy a video game new instead of used, because the product remains virtually identical, unless the buyer really cares about whether the box is still shiny. Therein lies the problem, and there's no straightforward solution, that's for sure.

An agreement with Gamestop and other big retailers to not sell used any game that came out within a month would be nice for the publishers. Then again, Gamestop has nothing to gain from that. Publishers would have to raise the profit marge done per games sold for the retailers.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
I really liked Jaffe's idea of exclusive windows of new only sales. Give a title 30 -60 days before selling used copies, then open up used sales.

That would have absolutely no affect except on the very worst games.

If store shelves are flooded with used copied the first two months your game didn't have enough content or that content was bad.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
This right here is the problem. I'm not CHEATING anyone out of anything. If I buy a car, clothes, sporting equipment, electronic, or anything used how am I cheating someone out of anything?

The fact that they've convinced some consumers that buying their product used is somehow unethical is nonsense.

First off, all the makers of those products wish their was no second hand market. You think the auto industry wouldn't love to have the used car market destroyed? It's impossible though, and a used car is nothing like a used game. The game on the disk, assuming it's not scratched, doesn't degrade.. it's the same thing for both the new and used buyer.

The music business hates used sales as well, but it's not a huge problem anymore.. also even back in the day (early to mid 90's) when I bought a shitload of CD's I never bought newer releases used, because they just didn't exist. I bought old releases used, because it was the only way to buy them. People just didn't trade in music the way they do games.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
Or, OR...

People without a sense of owing the game devs want to save $5.

You're missing the point. Good games are not easy to find used immediately in large quantities.

Also by treating people who buy a mix of new/used like criminals you are only pushing them to piracy. No more than one person who bought a mix who basically pirates everything now since they were both rubbed the wrong way by these practices. Can't say I really blame them even if I don't partake.
 
That would have absolutely no affect except on the very worst games.

If store shelves are flooded with used copied the first two months your game didn't have enough content or that content was bad.

Gamestop stores where I live had a truckload of used copies of MW3 and Black Ops less than a week after their release. While I do not like CoD, I can't argue that many, many peoples love these games and that it's money well spent if you're into online FPS.

I've also seen this for games not quite as popular too.
 

BHK3

Banned
I've been buying used games for most of my life and now all of a sudden it's a problem. Fuck the publishers with screwing with the consumer, go after gamestop if they're such bad people then.
 
I've been buying used games for most of my life and now all of a sudden it's a problem. Fuck the publishers with screwing with the consumer, go after gamestop if they're such bad people then.

Sterling said it best. Both side are governed by dicks.
 
I still don't get it.

Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property.

Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.

Okay;

Because based on the responses here of 'BUT I JUST WANT VALUE FOR MONEY!' and not seeing what the problem with used sales is, here it is.
It doesn't matter if you agree with the 'right' to buy and sell used games or not; this is what the problem is, and it is because games are most comparable to the movie industry.

Games cost a lot of time and money to make, but what they are actually selling you is an experience. Just like a movie.

Because they are selling an experience, there is an inherent value in having that experience early; being able to talk about that experience while it is still fresh with others, like a movie.

Now, a movie, unlike a game, has 3 points of audience.
It has the cinema showing - the closest equivalent to this would be a demo or a beta for a game. A finite chance to have that experience in a manner that is presented to you, but that you do not have much control over. Some people like a movie so much, they will see it multiple times at the theatre, paying for the experiencde each time, in the same way that some people will enjoy a demo so much they will play it over and over, despite the experience not usually radically changing or expanding beyond the initial experience.

Films second point of audience is the rental market. This is a much more user controlled experience; they can rewatch scenes, set up their viewing how they want, and they can treat it as though they own it, but for a finite amount of time.
A single rental copy will pass through many peoples hands, which is why stores that rent movies pay a far higher price for each copy than the cost of the later 'sell to consumer' price point; because for many people, they finite time they have to own the experience is enough for them.

The third point of audience is the purchase stage. This is the user having whatever experience they want, for as long as they want. They are also free to sell that experience on to someone else, because by the time this stage has occurred, the majority of the audience has already had opportunity to enjoy the experience at either of the first two stages, and the producers of the experience have already made the majority of their revenue - this is the long tail of revenue for their product.

The important difference here is that games actually have one point of audience. People will treat this audience point under any combination of the above three audience points; some people will treat it as a 'cinema showing', go through the single play campaign under the time limit they have set themselves, and then trade it back in to pick up soemthing else.

Some people will treat it as a rental, blaze through the singleplayer, do a bit of multiplayer for a week, then trade it back in.

Some people will treat it as a purchase, and keep it and play at their leisure over a much longer period.

The problem is, the people treating a game as either of the first two audience points are diminsihing overall sales, because each new copy will pass through multiple peoples hands, but the game shops who push for the used market pay no more for a copy that they treat like that than they do for a copy they are intending to 'sell' as with the third audience point example.

So the shop will make multiple revenues on a single copy, where the creators of that product only make one revenue, and every revenue after the first prevents an additional 'as new' sale.

This is the exact reason why movie rental 'first copies' are extremely expensive to purchase; so that the rental store and the publisher can both see some of that repeat revenue in a fairer manner (a new release rental DVD will cost over $100 for the rental store to purchase, with the expectancy that each rental DVD is rented to at least 10 people).

So this is why publishers are initiating things like project ten dollar; because their point of sale is the only way they can make revenue, and the used market might as well be called the 'stealth rental' market, because the retailer gets all of the revenue from multiple sales of a single copy of a product, the 'rinse and repeat' consumers get to - effectively - rent new titles, but the publisher (and the developers) don't see any revenues beyond that first sale.

I often hear shit like "Well, a used car has wear and tear and doesn't have X service or Y feature..." as if a used copy of a video game somehow has no wear and tear? Sometimes is missing its case? My used DVDs sometimes have little scratches on the surface. Or the box is dirty and scuffed. But apparently this isn't true in the magic world of video games, who defy the laws of entropy.

...are you actually attempting to argue the degradation of a disk containing data (which is not in fact the thing you have purchased) is equivalent to the mechnical wear and tear of a car?
 

Cartman86

Banned
Ignoring the used game part for a second the point Jaffe made about next gen consoles was really smart. They need to be always on devices. In addition to that Microsoft and Sony need to make their next consoles be HDMI pass-through devices. So far I think only Google TV is doing it, but if these platform holders can get their apps/marketplace interface as a part of your average TV viewing instead of being on a totally separate input that you have to actively decide to view they would stand to make a lot more money. This would be especially smart if they could do it before Roku, Apple TV and everyone else figures that out.
 

Margalis

Banned
There really isn't a problem with used sales as much as there is a problem with one specific retailer that simultaneously pushes used games incredibly hard, even games that have just been released, while also getting lots of business, pre-order bonuses and sweetheart deals from publishers.

The whole debate over used games is really just a way of talking about Gamestop without mentioning it by name.

The problem with this debate is that while one retailer is most of the problem (if you believe there is a problem) publishers are too scared to do anything about them and instead blame it on consumers or pretend it is some grand philosophical problem.

The whole discussion is disingenuous.
 

Tellaerin

Member
I really dont get all the hate towards Devs and publisher stance on used games. I mean they see no money when someone buys their product used, when that could have been a new sale and got the money for their work...instead of the customer saving $5 only to cheat the dev out of whatever their cut is.

I dont really have a firm stance on used games, I dont buy used games unless it's an out of print title on ebay. But I do sell games back to amazon on occasion and I prefer digital copies of games when they are available.

I just cant bring myself to get mad at publishers for trying to make as much money as they can off something they made and using the DLC and Online Pass tactics to make sure they see some money from their product.

Because manufacturers in every other industry accept the fact that once a consumer purchases their product, it's theirs. That person can then turn around and lend it out, resell it, give it away, or whatever, and they're not obligated to give the manufacturer a single penny. Which is as it should be.

Only in the videogame industry do you see companies fighting tooth and nail to deny consumers ownership of the things they buy. Worse yet, they honestly seem to believe they're entitled to a cut of any secondhand transactions - that somehow, videogames are more deserving than any other product that gets bought and sold secondhand, be it cars, books, clothes, or whatever. As much as I love games, they're not inherently special in that regard.
 

mugwhump

Member
I think digital distribution should make everyone happy*. Pubs/Devs don't need to worry about used game sales, and customers don't mind because the price is lower**.

*except Gamestop
**assuming the prices actually are lower.
 
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