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|OT| French Presidential Elect 2017 - La France est toujours insoumise; Le Pen loses

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G.O.O.

Member
Fillon’s choices: the bad, the worse and the real ugly

PARIS — “I’d use the Titanic cliché, except there’s no band playing.” That’s how a senior official from the conservative Les Républicains party summed up the mood in François Fillon presidential campaign following the latest allegations by the satirical weekly Canard Enchaîné.

Fillon’s allies are uneasy, verging on desperate, about the way he has chosen to defend himself from what he calls a “conspiracy” over the alleged funneling of public funds to his wife and children. Some are worried that it will lead to a political debacle.

After spending days denouncing unnamed plotters intent on taking him out of the French presidential race, Fillon upped the temperature Wednesday morning by accusing the government of having a hand in the revelations.

This is “an institutional coup d’Etat” coming from “the ruling left,” he told a meeting of Républicains MPs, according to AFP.

His aim was to rally the troops against the unpopular socialist government, but some in the Fillon campaign worried that it would do little to convince voters that the allegations are false.

A week after Le Canard Enchaîné revealed that Fillon had long employed his wife Penelope as his parliamentary attaché and suggested she hadn’t actually done much work for what he paid her, the paper unveiled new allegations on Wednesday. The amount Fillon paid his wife over the years reached nearly €900,000, the paper said, adding that he had paid his two school-aged children some €84,000 while a senator between 2005 and 2007.

Fillion’s party is now caught between its official duty and its political interest: stand by and defend its candidate, or start searching for a replacement as soon as possible. The clock is ticking, with the deadline to file official candidacies on March 22 and the first round of the election on April 23.
 
Le Canard's "I'm telling you she didn't do anything!" headline is really good.

Ok so we have DSK and Fillon as the most obvious "media assassination" of the 5th republic.

Baroin here we go !
Yeah, but to be fair, there's a really good way to avoid that kind of media assassination, which involves not doing it in the first place, and not having an awful line of defense.

If anything, I really hope someone adds transparency measures to their platform. Fillon is a symptom of a deeper issue, and that so many in our parliamentary class feels this is overblown shows how out of touch they are.
 
I always find those kind of situations hilarious ; Fillon probably 5 or 6 people helping with his PR from behind the scenes and the best thing they came up with is "a coup from the left"
 
New poll :

2061837_sondage-fillon-serait-elimine-des-le-premier-tour-de-la-presidentielle-web-0211757278504.jpg


Fillon looks toast.

Wow. It really could be Macron v. LePen.
 

mo60

Member
I'm honestly wondering what would it take to make Le Pen and the FN a marginal political party again.

Extreme infighting that causes a big spilt in the party. If Le Pen doesn't win this election there is a good chance the more right wing part of the FN will fight with the more left wing part of the party.

Wow. It really could be Macron v. LePen.

It's the worst option for le pen right now. She would get absolutely crushed if she faced Macron in the second round.
 
Polls are usually correct. Jospin didn't believe the polls that predicted Le Pen would pass him in 2002, but they were right there.

Even the 2016 US presidential election polls weren't completely wrong since Clinton did get 3 million more votes than Trump, and only lost because of the electoral college.
 

Alx

Member
Yeah the polls aren't the issue, it's the volatility of the voters that makes them useless as a prediction of the results. All the moderate candidates are uncertain values right now, either because they're unusual for such situation (Hamon), offer incomplete information (Macron) or are facing external issues (Fillon). Those three can still change a lot in the coming months. But I don't doubt that the polls reflect the current mood.

By the way, has anyone read the comic La Présidente ? I read a bit of the second book and that was quite terrifying

I flicked through the first one, and it felt boring and over-dramatic. Although after a few days of Trump, I may have to reconsider that.
 

Fistwell

Member
Ok so we have DSK and Fillon as the most obvious "media assassination" of the 5th republic.
If media assassinations mean people get held accountable for attempted rape or showering their spouse in public money, I'm all for it. I sincerely wish there were a hell of a lot more of them. Infinitely better than the usual complacency, we've had a posse of self-serving crooks running the country and sitting in the parliament, they have not been of much use to the general public but their pockets sure have grown bigger. They preach frugality for others, but they're the first to abuse the system for their own benefit. Fillon: "our country is bankrupted!", the next day flies home in a Falcon for the weekend, because he can. I'll never vote for Le Pen, for political reasons but also because, in terms of integrity, she's no better than anyone else. But I can't hold it against anyone that is done with french governing parties and does vote for her. It's a grave mistake but one I can understand, if not subscribe to.

There's practically no accountability for French politicians. You can tell from the total look of surprise when they get caught. Woertz: "bubububu look at my face, it's the face of an honest man!" Cahuzac:"I'll look you in the eyes and guaran-fucking-tee I did nothing wrong!", Guéant:"yes, I absolutely sold that pos painting for 5 times the price, I'm just a rly rly rly good sales person! This is no kickback!". All I hear when they talk is, "WHY MEEEE! They all do it, why mee?"

Easiest explanation why we're stuck with crooks is the system is lacking counter-powers. What the fuck is the press doing? What the fuck is judiciary?
 

Alx

Member
Easiest explanation why we're stuck with crooks is the system is lacking counter-powers. What the fuck is the press doing? What the fuck is judiciary?

To me it looks like the counter-powers work, the press outs the cheaters and the justice punishes them. Otherwise we wouldn't even know of all the Cahuzac, Guéant, etc. The issue is that politicians don't learn and still want to take the chance.
I think a first step to fix that would be to have full transparency on all public spending. It's ok that politicians get paid for their work and even well paid (to avoid corruption), but they should disclose whatever they're doing with the money. I think that's what they're doing in some Nordic countries.
 

G.O.O.

Member
French newspaper Le Monde launched its "fake news classifier" today. Actually it's a classification of websites, based on their reliability. May be useful in the near future.

http://www.lemonde.fr/verification/
I really like les décodeurs's work. I hope thet'll extend it to scientific information some day (environment, GMOs, stuff like that) because le monde's planet column is honestly the worst part of the paper.
 
Welp. Looks like Fillon's initial defense of "there's nothing illegal here, even my children were employed" backfired spectacularly, as his children are now covered by the investigation too.

When he touted his family oriented platform, we didn't know he was being so literal.

French newspaper Le Monde launched its "fake news classifier" today. Actually it's a classification of websites, based on their reliability. May be useful in the near future.

http://www.lemonde.fr/verification/
Yeah, this is a great initiative.

Le Monde also had an interview with Le Pen where she basically confirms she wants to leave the EU. Obviously she doesn't put it this way and uses the Dodgy Dave playbook: we'll renegociate some key points like borders and monetary policy, and we'll do a referendum asking people if they want to leave or agree with the negotiated conditions.
 

Fistwell

Member
To me it looks like the counter-powers work, the press outs the cheaters and the justice punishes them. Otherwise we wouldn't even know of all the Cahuzac, Guéant, etc. The issue is that politicians don't learn and still want to take the chance.
I don't think it works for shit. I think it's only the idiots and the sloppy that get caught. And even then, they get off with a slap on the wrist. Guéant gets firm jail time? My ass he does, he's not gonna spend a single minute in jail. There's barely any investigative press in France. There's mediapart, then le canard every now and then, and lemonde had its little thing with sarkozy. That's it. When one of them actually fishes out something, then all the others jump on the bandwagon like for Fillon now, but where was lemonde on this, originally? Don't they feel the shame of having a satirical newspaper doing their job for them? None of them give a shit. Liberation dont give a shit. Le figaro dont give a shit. They have 0 money for anything. Shitty political editorials where they spout out the party line, fine, they got time for that. But funding investigative work? Like, actual, journalistic investigation? Forget about it! Cahuzac could have had his accounts forever if he had not fucked up and called someone that hated his guts. Noone would have ever found out, because none of them are doing their job.

The press is a failure, and justice is not holding any of the crooks that get caught accountable. Fuck all of them. /rant
 
Speaking of Le Figaro, Dassault will probably be dead by the time he's exhausted all his appeals. People like him are a shining example the system simply doesn't work.

Like Fillon said last year "Une justice rapide et ferme est une nécessite absolue que vous réclamez. L'impunité zéro doit être la règle !"
 

Fistwell

Member
There is no limit to their hypocrisy. I don't have the words to express how little I think of these people. The fucking balls on this motherfucker. The balls.
 

Alx

Member
France 2 basically obliterated Fillon.

He's not coming back from this.

What did they say ?
I must admit that I was completely wrong about the backlash of this story. I expected it to cause minor trouble and then be forgotten, but it seems that it may really cost Fillon his candidacy after all.
 

Sinsem

Member
I have a hard time believing the high figures for Macron… I feel he's like the 2012 Mélenchon who was constantly overhyped by polls.

A lot of people went for Hollande instead, you know "tactical vote".
Macron is cleary too high right now, the question is how much will he loose in March when things are going to get really serious.
Yesterday morning on France Inter he was already proposing something unconstitutional regarding members of the parliament... I wonder what's it going to be when he'll have to actually talk about his program.
 

mo60

Member
At this point I wonder who is going to end up facing Le Pen in the second round at this point. I'm not sure if Macron can keep on gaining momentum until April 23. If Fillon gets replaced by someone else that person may struggle to make it to the second round at this point because of the turmoil that is affecting Fillon's camapign.
 
So what's going to happen on the Républicains side, if Fillon actually drops out? IIRC, Juppé has already ruled out to step in as a substitute, but they're not going to go into these elections without an actual candidate, right? Would they do another primary before the actual election or what?

What I'm covertly asking is: Would somebody please reassure me that this doesn't mean that fucking Sarkozy could stage another comeback attempt! Pretty please?!?
 

Simplet

Member
I don't think it works for shit. I think it's only the idiots and the sloppy that get caught. And even then, they get off with a slap on the wrist. Guéant gets firm jail time? My ass he does, he's not gonna spend a single minute in jail. There's barely any investigative press in France. There's mediapart, then le canard every now and then, and lemonde had its little thing with sarkozy. That's it. When one of them actually fishes out something, then all the others jump on the bandwagon like for Fillon now, but where was lemonde on this, originally? Don't they feel the shame of having a satirical newspaper doing their job for them? None of them give a shit. Liberation dont give a shit. Le figaro dont give a shit. They have 0 money for anything. Shitty political editorials where they spout out the party line, fine, they got time for that. But funding investigative work? Like, actual, journalistic investigation? Forget about it! Cahuzac could have had his accounts forever if he had not fucked up and called someone that hated his guts. Noone would have ever found out, because none of them are doing their job.

The press is a failure, and justice is not holding any of the crooks that get caught accountable. Fuck all of them. /rant

I really think you should calm down with these rants. I mean if it makes you feel good about yourself it's fine but I hope you realize this attitude not only does nothing to help, but feeds into the distrust for institutions that is undermining democracies all over the world at the moment.

You need to realize that institutions are not flawless, especially justice. Tons of criminals walk free, and I'm not only talking about politicians here: white collar criminals, petty criminals, rapists, drug lords, you name it. It's hard to meet the burden of proof, which is not necessarily always a bad thing. Things mostly ever change incrementally, and usually in the right direction, if you don't start throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's good to be vigilant, but throwing tantrums is not helping.
 

mo60

Member
So what's going to happen on the Républicains side, if Fillon actually drops out? IIRC, Juppé has already ruled out to step in as a substitute, but they're not going to go into these elections without an actual candidate, right? Would they do another primary before the actual election or what?

What I'm covertly asking is: Would somebody please reassure me that this doesn't mean that fucking Sarkozy could stage another comeback attempt! Pretty please?!?

He won't attempt anything like that. He got crushed once. Why would he want to be the LR's nominee after the beating he took during their primary?
 

G.O.O.

Member
A lot of people went for Hollande instead, you know "tactical vote".
Macron is cleary too high right now, the question is how much will he loose in March when things are going to get really serious.
Yesterday morning on France Inter he was already proposing something unconstitutional regarding members of the parliament... I wonder what's it going to be when he'll have to actually talk about his program.
if you're thinking of the contract with MPs so that they obey him/don't rebel, it's indeed unconstitutional but I understood that as a guaranty that he's not going to change his line after all the vallsists join him

/macron defense force
 

mo60

Member
Can we have Juppé as a candidate please?

Too bad he said three times already he doesn't want to be an emergency alternative :(

I rather the right just put in a throw away candidate if they can't find anyone good and join forces with Macron in the second round to help him beat Le Pen if Fillon never recovers from this scandal.
 
I rather the right just put in a throw away candidate if they can't find anyone good and join forces with Macron in the second round to help him beat Le Pen if Fillon never recovers from this scandal.

Juppé already threw away his career twice, I don't see him doing it again.

That's a shame.
 

Fistwell

Member
I really think you should calm down with these rants. I mean if it makes you feel good about yourself it's fine but I hope you realize this attitude not only does nothing to help, but feeds into the distrust for institutions that is undermining democracies all over the world at the moment.

You need to realize that institutions are not flawless, especially justice. Tons of criminals walk free, and I'm not only talking about politicians here: white collar criminals, petty criminals, rapists, drug lords, you name it. It's hard to meet the burden of proof, which is not necessarily always a bad thing. Things mostly ever change incrementally, and usually in the right direction, if you don't start throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's good to be vigilant, but throwing tantrums is not helping.
Judiciary system not perfect? You don't say. I do understand guilty people do get to walk free on occasion, thank you. I fail to see why that would mean we shouldn't hold politicians accountable for their actions. Shouldn't we be doing that? Their lack of accountability is the very thing that is undermining democracy. Their lack of accountability is what is feeding the distrust for institutions. Not some idiot's rant on some random forum, no matter how self-important I might feel.
 

Alx

Member
Polls were absurdly wrong with the primary of the right. 30% (most optimistic prediction) vs. 44% (actual Fillon result) was a fuckup of much bigger scale than Brexit or Trump.

Don't watch the value at a given day, watch the evolution of the curve. The polls gave 30% for Fillon a few days before the vote, but also shows a steep exponential curve, that meets the results on election day.

5578aa62aaf59efe7c4240c354d6ffe6.png


And if you watch the results of Trump and Brexit, you can also notice that the dynamics were both times in favor of the winning side.
 

Coffinhal

Member
Can we have Juppé as a candidate please?

Too bad he said three times already he doesn't want to be an emergency alternative :(

Let's throw away someone that will be convicted in order to replace him with someone that has been convicted...for fictionnal work too, at a much bigger scale !

The only right-wing guy that could do the job would be De Villepin*, since he withdrawed from the day-to-day agenda of politics and has a very good image on international issues, even on the left-wing.

*former President Chirac's equivalent of US Chief of staff, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, former Prime Minister
 
I always find those kind of situations hilarious ; Fillon probably 5 or 6 people helping with his PR from behind the scenes and the best thing they came up with is "a coup from the left"
Honestly if I was part of his PR team I'm not sure I could come up with better . This shit is indefensible and I think he is fucked barring a miracle
 
Let's throw away someone that will be convicted in order to replace him with someone that has been convicted...for fictionnal work too, at a much bigger scale !

The only right-wing guy that could do the job would be De Villepin*, since he withdrawed from the day-to-day agenda of politics and has a very good image on international issues, even on the left-wing.

*former President Chirac's equivalent of US Chief of staff, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, former Prime Minister

De Villepin's image is tarnished by the Clearstream affair though, as well as the strikes against his Contrat Première Embauche laws in 2006. The latter may sound like a long time ago but for many people who are now adults these strikes were the first strikes they ever participated in so they're likely to remember.
 

Magni

Member
Imagine had Penelopegate happened after the first round? Though I think in that case Le Canard Enchaîné would have waited until he'd won the second round before welcoming him to the presidency with that scandal.
 
Apparently some people in the media are starting to feel sorry for Penelope, claiming that she may legit not have been aware of this job contract and the corresponding salary, and that she lives an utterly boring life with a neglecting husband and kids that despise her for not having a career. Wow...
 

G.O.O.

Member
Apparently some people in the media are starting to feel sorry for Penelope, claiming that she may legit not have been aware of this job contract and the corresponding salary, and that she lives an utterly boring life with a neglecting husband and kids that despise her for not having a career. Wow...
Being a politician's wife sure sounds awful. Even worse when you see how women are treated in politics...

Good news, the French version of Breitbart may not be ready for the elections :
http://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-med...france-avant-plusieurs-mois_5073777_3236.html

Breitbart has been trying to find local journalists and an editor to launch it, but they don't seem to have made much progress.
About that ! If you want to act against breitbart, you can follow https://twitter.com/slpng_giants and https://twitter.com/slpng_giants_eu . It's about raising awareness among advertisers that their products appear next to xenophobic/misogynistic content, a lot of them don't know that and pull out their ads. I think it's a good idea.

On topic, polls today :
Le Pen 25%
Macron 20.5%
Fillon 18.5%
Hamon 16.5%
Mélenchon 10%

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Politique/Sondage-Pour-Fillon-il-y-a-le-feu-a-la-baraque-1180700
 

Slaythe

Member
That's incredible because if Hamon can (and probably will) steal some from Mélanchon, he can actually reach back the top.

Sick.

The attacks and scandals will probably hit Macron at last second. He's the man to kill for everybody.
 

G.O.O.

Member
Then again the primary effect is still in full force so I expect Hamon to go down, not up. I can be wrong though.
 

Pomerlaw

Member
That's incredible because if Hamon can (and probably will) steal some from Mélanchon, he can actually reach back the top.

Sick.

The attacks and scandals will probably hit Macron at last second. He's the man to kill for everybody.

If Macron goes down too can LePen win?
 
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