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Primethius
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:24 PM)
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That's a very corporate denial that doesn't really tell us all that much.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by duckroll

I agree. It also completely ignores the allegations that he was terminated following his complaint. It's not addressed at all, because to address that would be to draw attention to the possibility that HR did not do a proper job. Instead they're putting this out to try and defuse the sexual misconduct angle which is the hot topic at the moment.

Originally Posted by Kaako

So now we wait for the evidence to surface.

Yup. Not a good look for Naughty Dog, Sony, or the entire Gaming Industry.
ItIsOkBro
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:24 PM)
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at the very least, a call log should exist to hr a day before he was terminated
Zemm
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)
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If David has any emails related to this then Sony and ND are going to look so awful. Very strange statement.
Metfanant
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)
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I think people need to actually read what is being said here...

- YES, its a "very corporate" response...ND is part of a corporation
- NO, this is not a denial that the allegations are true
- NO, it is not ND saying they have a police dept and foresics team that has conducted a thorough investigation.
- YES, this is ND saying they went back in their HR records to look for any official documentation of a complaint.
- YES, this is ND saying they have no record of a complaint being filed


its POSSIBLE ND are just flat out lying...but thats a bold strategy on their part...its also POSSIBLE that an HR employee never documented the complaint, which means ND would have no record of the complaint...its also possible that a complaint was never filed through official channels, which means ND would not have records of it...

there are TONS of possibilities as to what happened...but all this statement says is, we looked through our records, and didnt find an official complaint
Papercuts
fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Considering what he said about his termination and the money offer, that statement is...pretty rough.
Diablos
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Ugh this isnít going to end well, is it?
entremet
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by BernardoOne

Why did anyone expect that there was a paper trail? If the allegation that Sony paid him off 20$K to shut up, you better believe any records ever made of the inccident have been burned a long time ago.

They don't have to burn anything. They just never have to put in anything in writing. HR knows this.
Symphonia
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:25 PM)

Originally Posted by entremet

Not if you're trying to cover your own ass? Could've been a verbal agreement that was never formalized since he never took it.

$20K is a lot of money to not leave a trail behind.
Rafus
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:26 PM)
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"We investigated this during a few hours in a weekend and found no evidence, what u guys talkin 'bout?"
Abflab
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(10-15-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Double Donut

Cases like these are so complex since proof is practically impossible to provide.

Corroboration from others is the best evidence. Did he tell anyone else at the time? Are there others with similar stories?

Sorry, but right now, there is a mere allegation. It lacks specificity, evidence, and corroboration. That doesn't make it false, but it does make it irresponsible to treat it as presumptively true.
Marcel
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by BernardoOne

Why did anyone expect that there was a paper trail? If the allegation that Sony paid him off 20$K to shut up, you better believe any records ever made of the inccident have been burned a long time ago. You don't spend 20K to shut up someone without cleaning up the rest of the shit.

You don't have to "burn" informal offers made over the phone.
Mrbob
how can the baaasheep
enjoy the shootbang?
(10-15-2017, 05:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bits N Pieces

Not if there was a severance offer or a pay off offer of $20k, there has to be a trail for that surely?

This number still doesn't make sense to me because it's way too low for an attempted payoff to avoid a larger lawsuit.

Perhaps the HR person was going to do this out of his/her own pocket. Because this a is a lawsuit case worth much more than 20k.

Originally Posted by Symphonia

$20K is a lot of money to not leave a trail behind.

Not really. Not for a company as big as Sony.
CookTrain
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:27 PM)

Originally Posted by Symphonia

$20K is a lot of money to not leave a trail behind.

Annoyingly, you don't need a paper trail to make an offer. It's possible the guy is in a perfect storm of unaccountability on Sony/NDs part.
entremet
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Symphonia

$20K is a lot of money to not leave a trail behind.

The agreement was an offer. You don't need to make paperwork for that. If he took, yes you will need paperwork. But look at this, if he took it, he could never speak about it. He was trapped because he was unaware of the corporate game.

He got played sadly.
Nightengale
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by ViviOggi

Just ND? They're also speaking for the entirety of SCE

Depending on the company, the robustness of the HR-system for tracking complaints can be pretty efficient, if you have the time and employee.

Even more so if the employee has little to no history of filing HR-complaint/request.

Then just searching "from David Ballard to SIE HR' "subject title: HR Filing No #000" should be able to pull it out within a few hours.

That being said, that assumes HR/David both do their due diligence and that records were not wiped/properly recorded.
Abflab
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by entremet

They don't have to burn anything. They just never have to put in anything in writing. HR knows this.

They actually have to put everything in writing, and are trained by armies of lawyers to do so.
Hedge
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:27 PM)
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I missed something huge it seems.

Not a very tactful PR message to send out, regardless. :(
Rad-
Sauna? Penis.
Doorknob? Penis.
School? Penis.
Date night? Penis.
(10-15-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Symphonia

$20K is a lot of money to not leave a trail behind.

But there was no deal. Just an offer. You don't yet need that 20k at that point.
VeeP
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Well, I'm not sure what I expected from ND :/. I believe two former employees have said they were sexually harassed, I'd like to think they weren't lying because they really wouldn't gain anything from it, and had potentially a lot more to lose. Anyways, we'll see where this goes and hopefully we get a happy ending :/.
oneida
Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
(10-15-2017, 05:28 PM)
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"we take these allegations seriously and are publicly stating that we don't believe the victim less than a day after he made them."
AsakuraZ
Junior Member
(10-15-2017, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mrbob

This number still doesn't make sense to me because it's way too low for an attempted payoff to avoid a larger lawsuit.

Perhaps the HR person was going to do this out of his/her own pocket.

Doubtful. I'm not sure any HR person in any corporation would pay for something out of his own pocket. Why would they in the first place?

The amount is about where I think it would depending on the person's position within the company.
Trojan
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:29 PM)
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People are kind of missing the intent here. ND is going on the record saying they never received notification that any harassment occurred, which is a very discreet statement that could easily be disproven with an email from the accuser mentioning this. They aren't denying anything happened, just that it wasn't reported. Very different things.

So for them to say this they obviously have very high confidence this was never reported. Otherwise they will eat a shit sandwich if just one email comes out showing this reported to HR.

Those asking if the accuser has a recording or proof - I highly doubt it, but with ND's statement even an email from his work account referencing a talk with HR would do the trick.

They also should do some kind of investigation/follow-up, disappointing they didn't mention that at all.
RionaaM
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:29 PM)
What a mess. I'd like to hear Naughty Dog's explanation for his firing then.
KageMaru
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Would there really be record of something they were trying to cover up? I don't think so.

Also for those hoping the victim has proof, unless he recorded his interactions with HR or the phone call of his termination, it's unlikely any physical proof exists. When the harassment can be inappropriate touching or verbal, it's nearly impossible to provide proof.
entremet
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abflab

They actually have to put everything in writing, and are trained by armies of lawyers to do so.

But he never accepted anything.
phanphare
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:29 PM)
yeah not a good response
Chobel
I shouldn't make bets because every time I do my tag gets worse
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Holy shit! Total denial?

Originally Posted by Liliana Eileen

Riiiiiight. Yet multiple other people have said the same thing in response to David. They're lying, right?

Wait, there are others?
Ctlead
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
Hmm. Guess we just have to see if any evidence surfaces.
GHG
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by RionaaM

What a mess. I'd like to hear Naughty Dog's explanation for his firing then.

He said it himself. He was made redundant. Position no longer required.

Like I said in the other thread, if he didn't make a formal complaint in writing then there will be no evidence unfortunately.
InsaneTiger
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)

Originally Posted by ItIsOkBro

at the very least, a call log should exist to hr a day before he was terminated

I don't know about that. I work in telecom at a state agency and the upper managements make it very clear when data is to get purged. I don't know how it works for private companies, but unless some law exists mandating companies keep records for a certain period of time (it doesn't), that call log is probably long gone.
Drackhorn
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(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by entremet

The agreement was an offer. You don't need to make paperwork for that. If he took, yes you will need paperwork. But look at this, if he took it, he could never speak about it. He was trapped because he was unaware of the corporate game.

He got played sadly.

We don't know and I doubt we ever will.
Boke1879
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metfanant

I think people need to actually read what is being said here...

- YES, its a "very corporate" response...ND is part of a corporation
- NO, this is not a denial that the allegations are true
- NO, it is not ND saying they have a police dept and foresics team that has conducted a thorough investigation.
- YES, this is ND saying they went back in their HR records to look for any official documentation of a complaint.
- YES, this is ND saying they have no record of a complaint being filed


its POSSIBLE ND are just flat out lying...but thats a bold strategy on their part...its also POSSIBLE that an HR employee never documented the complaint, which means ND would have no record of the complaint...its also possible that a complaint was never filed through official channels, which means ND would not have records of it...

there are TONS of possibilities as to what happened...but all this statement says is, we looked through our records, and didnt find an official complaint

Yea people calling this a strange statement. It's not. It's a very corporate one. They aren't denying the allegations just they don't have evidence.

It's is possible they are lying, but that would be stupid as fuck for them especially if there is a paper trail.
Resident_UA
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metfanant

I think people need to actually read what is being said here...

- YES, its a "very corporate" response...ND is part of a corporation
- NO, this is not a denial that the allegations are true
- NO, it is not ND saying they have a police dept and foresics team that has conducted a thorough investigation.
- YES, this is ND saying they went back in their HR records to look for any official documentation of a complaint.
- YES, this is ND saying they have no record of a complaint being filed


its POSSIBLE ND are just flat out lying...but thats a bold strategy on their part...its also POSSIBLE that an HR employee never documented the complaint, which means ND would have no record of the complaint...its also possible that a complaint was never filed through official channels, which means ND would not have records of it...

there are TONS of possibilities as to what happened...but all this statement says is, we looked through our records, and didnt find an official complaint

Itís also possible that the employee is lying... Any reason why people forget that itís a possibility? Iím not saying that he is, I just find it weird that people overlook this possibility...
Quonny
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by VeeP

Well, I'm not sure what I expected from ND :/. I believe two former employees have said they were sexually harassed, I'd like to think they weren't lying because they really wouldn't gain anything from it, and had potentially a lot more to lose. Anyways, we'll see where this goes and hopefully we get a happy ending :/.

Not that I think heís lying, but this guy definitely has a motive to lie.

Heís not been employed for years because his excuse was he couldnít handle the crunch. Then the whole Hollywood scandal pops up and he sees his chance to make an excuse and potentially either get a payout or some sympathetic developer hires him.

Again, I think thatís a foolish plan and I have no reason to doubt him, but there is a motive to lie about this.
Strangelove77
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Reading comprehension and individual thinking has really fallen off these last few days. Do people know the difference between things you know and things you can prove? They are very different things.
Whether there was sexual harassment taking place or not, I doubt either side has evidence of anything taking place. You can take that as you want. Which you will.

Sentimentality really fucks up people's judgment.
entremet
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Drackhorn

We don't know and I doubt we ever will.

All I'm saying that it is very easy for HR to keep their hands clean, hence the statement by ND/Sony.
Justified
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by entremet

The agreement was an offer. You don't need to make paperwork for that. If he took, yes you will need paperwork. But look at this, if he took it, he could never speak about it. He was trapped because he was unaware of the corporate game.

He got played sadly.

Not true, they cant legally pay you off to not report a crime. Thats extortion.

Best believe the "severance packet" would not have mention anything about Sexual Misconduct.
Diablos
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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It is interesting that they didnít at least indicate they would look into this in some capacity, given the severity of his claims. Thatís the most surprising part. They basically feel as though there is nothing left to say and they have no record of what he was talking about.

So my gut tells me that either he was lying or Naughty Dog thinks they can just continue to deny what happened thinking this will go away which is incredibly stupid on their behalf (if this is what theyíre doing). I find it hard to believe Sony HR would keep this from them somehow if it happened. Quite frankly, even if they did, thereís no way other people working there didnít know what was going on. Theyíd have to know one way or another, or at least have some kind of idea as to what happened.

Either way I canít see this ending well. This sucks.
Timeaisis
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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They need to investigate further.

I'm glad they made a statement, though.
CaviarMeths
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:31 PM)
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Really, it comes across as more of a dismissal than a denial.
Monkeyball
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:32 PM)
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And now the impossible part, proving it. The dude is screwed.
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:32 PM)
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Complete PR response. Someone definitely contacted PR and told them to make a statement. The person who probably made this , did this in their PJs. Nonetheless, all of this is so fishy not because Sony and ND are flat out saying they have no evidence, but now the victim is on the tail end of now having to present evidence that proves that dirty dealings was done outside of official channels...which then could blow this whole thing up.
TsuWave
(10-15-2017, 05:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by oneida

"we take these allegations seriously and are publicly stating that we don't believe the victim less than a day after he made them."

is this really what you got from the statement?
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(10-15-2017, 05:32 PM)
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I do wonder if proper looking into this matter was done from all angles. Almost seems too fast from a such a serious accusation as this one.
Marcel
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abflab

Corroboration from others is the best evidence. Did he tell anyone else at the time? Are there others with similar stories?

Sorry, but right now, there is a mere allegation. It lacks specificity, evidence, and corroboration. That doesn't make it false, but it does make it irresponsible to treat it as presumptively true.

It would be great to have a competent journalist like a Ronan Farrow to conduct interviews of past employees and provide some corroborating evidence of a culture of sexual harassment. Needless to say we don't have someone like that in game journalism.
autoduelist
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phu

It's just ND and SCE and they did it over a Saturday night/Sunday morning, when they were surely firing on all cylinders.

Well, I mean, some here are assuming worst case scenario, and yes, at that point, this would all be a coverup. Generally speaking, though, there would be many people aware of a harassment charge and it's not like you need to search hard to find it. You don't need Poirot to find documentation, you just walk into HR and ask for a file. Beyond scanning his emails, talking to those in contact with him, etc, i'm not sure what kind of investigation can happen?

Corporations often give severance, and make you sign for it. I know because I've gotten it more than once [part of IT team being cut down post-completion], in that same monetary ball park. So it's possible the 'bribe' part was just SOP, and those involved in offering it had no idea why the HR person recommended him for firing. He'd think it was a bribe, but those offering it wouldn't have any idea it was since they wouldn't know the real reason he was being let go.
Boke1879
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(10-15-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by GHG

He said it himself. He was made redundant. Position no longer required.

Like I said in the other thread, if he didn't make a formal complaint in writing then there will be no evidence unfortunately.

Hell dude at my company. Even though HR was there to protect the management. I emailed him about just how shit my executive director was. But he would always reply. "I need something more concrete etc".

So I had a paper trail. I had some emails, but do you think he filed any sort of complaint?
TWrecks310
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:33 PM)
This is going to be very, very bad isn't it.
mdubs
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(10-15-2017, 05:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by oneida

"we take these allegations seriously and are publicly stating that we don't believe the victim less than a day after he made them."

A public facing company isnít going to admit liability if they donít think they have any. Surely you wouldnít expect otherwise?

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