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Abflab
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marcel

Like I said earlier, a journalist who can conduct interviews of past employees to corroborate the victim's claims would be the most effective means of making his case in lieu of e-mail or call logs.

Yeah, there should be some additional stories. Harassers rarely stop at one victim.
Trojan
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Decarb

They should've at least touched upon the fact why he was let go instead of making legally bland statements.

You can't release a statement on why someone is terminated, especially with California labor laws.
Sad Affleck
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abflab

Not siding with anyone. I'm a lawyer, so I know how this stuff works. Anything is possible, but I'm playing the odds, here.

I am a lawyer too. I've seen enough of these cases to be well aware of how the covering up system works.
Remij
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(10-15-2017, 05:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Resident_UA

What is there to loose? He’s been without job for a while for a reason...

Any chance of EVER getting a job in the industry again. The ire of tons of Naughty Dog and Sony fans for attacking one of the most respected and loved developers in the biz.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but just less likely that he's making it up.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
(10-15-2017, 05:45 PM)
.
Y2Kev
TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
(10-15-2017, 05:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Decarb

They should've at least touched upon the fact why he was let go instead of making legally bland statements.

I don't think you can disclose this, and if you could, I'm not sure the employee would want this disclosed.
zelas
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:46 PM)

Originally Posted by Liliana Eileen

Riiiiiight. Yet multiple other people have said the same thing in response to David. They're lying, right?

Nobody has ever lied about sexual harassment? Multiple people haven't lined up behind a sexual harassment lie ever? Wow, way to spit on the (modern) history of people of color.

People are fucked up. We don't know one way or another about this case but there is 100% going to be an instance where someone looks at the recent unchecked enthusiasm of people wanting to side with victims no matter what and they'll try to use it for the benefit/detriment of themselves/others. People are fucked up.

The "innocent until proven guilty" stance is one thing, but the "anyone accused is a piece of shit that needs to be exiled immediately" is just as ridiculous. There's room for nuance. Unless you feel that the consequences (loss of friends, family, job, freedom or life) of falsely accused victims are a small price to pay.
N7.Angel
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(10-15-2017, 05:46 PM)
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Wait... some people really expected ND or Sony to say that was true ? I want to live in your world for sure.

The big thing here is ND talking for Sony as well and deny the entire thing, not even a "We're investigating into this", if proven wrong, it could be a huge blow for both of them
Boke1879
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(10-15-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Random Human

“We take accusations of harassment seriously and will be launching a full investigation” and then you launch a full investigation. You don’t hand wave it away by saying there was no complaint so that’s that.

But what if that'st he truth? If they have no record like they claim. Then they just don't have it. And their statement is truthful.

That's the extent of their investigation. They aren't going to call the guy.
Kinyou
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(10-15-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jackstin

There's a chance that his being fired had nothing to do with his claims of being sexually harassed, and that the $20k hush money was a redundancy package. I'm not saying I think that's what happened, but it's a possibility.

But even in that situation, which is a bit of a stretch, that changes nothing about whether he was sexually harassed. And he just wouldn't lie about that. I really hope a follow up from ND deals with this properly.

It's doubtful that they offered him the money and explicitly said that this was to keep quiet about the allegations. More likely that they made this offer for some other reason and he drew his conclusion which might be correct or not.
NHale
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(10-15-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Typical PR response. Unfortunately I worked in so many places in my life, to not be naive enough to believe there is 1 single company in the entire world where sexual harassment hasn't happened, so I always tend to believe the victim. I hope David Ballard has some kind of proof of something related to this being discussed which would constitute a paper trail that Sony/ND denies knowing. If he can't prove it, he's going to have a tough time in the industry. It always happen which is shameful.

However people need to stop relating the firing with the sexual harassement. His tweets clearly say he had a mental breakdown because of the harassment, and this is very likely what triggered his firing, then when he felt he had nothing to lose, he reported the harassement and HR decided to make him a offer to silence him. That's what I got from the tweets at least.

Originally Posted by Adam_802

lol sony/ND trying to cover it up, pfft

Check post history. Fucking console wars even on topics like this. It never fucking fails what a disgrace.
DrKelpo
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:47 PM)
Assuming the allegations are true and someone from Sony HR offered him 20k.

Who has presumably known about this?
I'm not trying to construct any wild theories here, just trying to understand how stuff like that could possibly be handled in companies as big as Sony.

Are we hypothetically talking head of HR level or higher?
Marcel
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(10-15-2017, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Random Human

“We take accusations of harassment seriously and will be launching a full investigation” and then you launch a full investigation. You don’t hand wave it away by saying there was no complaint so that’s that.

Sony could actually be investigating the matter but not mentioning it in a public way because they want to reduce liability or accountability that would come out of such a statement. When you say you're launching an investigation that puts you on a timeline for any person reading the statement.

The statement is piss-poor in general on the optics front so don't take this as me apologizing for it or anything.
Justified
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(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Random Human

“We take accusations of harassment seriously and will be launching a full investigation” and then you launch a full investigation. You don’t hand wave it away by saying there was no complaint so that’s that.

But the statement was in response specifically to his compliant.

Im sure they are investigating thoroughly right now (Unless there really is a massive cover-up)
Phu
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Resident_UA

What is there to loose? He’s been without job for a while for a reason...

Your implications are trash.
Arcia
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
So, with a statement like THAT they are probably already destroying any evidence that they have that it did happen. Full denial and coverup mode. I mean, if that tactic works for Facebook then it’ll work for Sony, right? Ugh
rochellepaws
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(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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There's no way to know as the evidence likely doesn't exist but I'm inclined to believe the employee in this situation and his refusal to accept the 20k (likely framed as a redundancy package) showed his conviction towards his mistreatment. He has very little to gain making such a claim towards an individual who doesn't even work at the company in question anymore while Naughty Dog have everything to lose in their reputation from it becoming apparent they fostered such an environment of abuse towards employees and protection towards those at the top.
We've seen these type of occurrences in other industries over and over and they all get initially denied at a corporate level until others start coming forward to corroborate the claim. It would be very interesting to hear what other ex-ND employees thought of the accused's character and the sort of environment within the company.
Deku Tree
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(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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So they didn’t deny offering him $20k? Is that like an admission?
FlutterPuffs
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(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abflab

Yeah, there should be some additional stories. Harassers rarely stop at one victim.

That was what I was wondering about this all day as well.
Shredderi
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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They should have stated that they're launching an investigation to the whole thing that goes beyond "so anyone here know anything about this? No? Alright, back to tighten the graphics on level 3!". I mean, I think it does warrant an investigation. I'm one of those people who don't believe the few people who must have been complicit in this (if true) implicates the whole studio, but the studio as a whole needs to show now that they mean business in taking things like this seriously.
TRUE ORDER
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(10-15-2017, 05:48 PM)
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He should have some kind of proof, hopefully.

Didn't expect such a fast reply to the issue though.
Loudninja
No oxygen in space?
How does the sun burn?
Food for thought.
(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metfanant

I think people need to actually read what is being said here...

- YES, its a "very corporate" response...ND is part of a corporation
- NO, this is not a denial that the allegations are true
- NO, it is not ND saying they have a police dept and foresics team that has conducted a thorough investigation.
- YES, this is ND saying they went back in their HR records to look for any official documentation of a complaint.
- YES, this is ND saying they have no record of a complaint being filed


its POSSIBLE ND are just flat out lying...but thats a bold strategy on their part...its also POSSIBLE that an HR employee never documented the complaint, which means ND would have no record of the complaint...its also possible that a complaint was never filed through official channels, which means ND would not have records of it...

there are TONS of possibilities as to what happened...but all this statement says is, we looked through our records, and didnt find an official complaint

Yeah I dont think some people understand what is being said here.
Symphonia
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
It frustrates me how eager people are to pull the trigger where there is no evidence from either party. Wouldn’t it be better to wait and see the proof before releasing the hounds? If Dave had made complaints, there would be records on his end. Likewise, ND will have a record somewhere.
ckaneo
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(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
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He said they offer him 20k. "No evidence". Well someone is lying.
Fiendcode
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(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Quonny

I mean, if they really don’t have any complaint, what are they supposed to do? Sit on it and then release the same statement 72 hours later?

They looked. It didn’t take much time because it’s incredibly easy to track down a specific email address or look through a digital database of employee complaints. They didn’t find anything. That’s it.

A better response would’ve involved saying they take these allegations very seriously, will be investigating the matter, etc. This flat denial with nothing else gives the impression they just want it to go away. And the speedy/unusual timeline for looking into it (less than 24 hours, over a weekend) reinforces that. A better response would be more sensitive to the alleged victim and the subject rather than the purely defensive stance they’ve taken. And probably come on Monday.

Hopefully though it spurs more victims to come forward with their stories. Sexual harassment tends to be a cultural issue within corporations and it’s unlikely these two former ND employees are alone if what they say is true.
FlutterPuffs
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(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deku Tree

So they didn’t deny offering him $20k? Is that like an admission?

That could have just been severance pay for being made redundant.
Feorax
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(10-15-2017, 05:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Random Human

“We take accusations of harassment seriously and will be launching a full investigation” and then you launch a full investigation. You don’t hand wave it away by saying there was no complaint so that’s that.

A full investigation based on what?

The whole point of them not finding anything on record means they have literally nothing to go off. They can't be seen to be contacting the victim because this is something that could become a criminal investigation, and there's a good chance that any other employees involved have moved on to other things.

Any investigation they could do themselves would be far from thorough at this point.
L Thammy
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(10-15-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deku Tree

So they didn’t deny offering him $20k? Is that like an admission?

Even if they did, I don't think they would have framed it as SEXUAL HARASSMENT DENIAL PACKAGE $20,000
McMoneyman
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(10-15-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by TRUE ORDER

He should have some kind of proof, hopefully.

Didn't expect such a fast reply to the issue though.

Considering the seriousness of the allegations against Naughty Dog/Sony. They probably feel it's something that needs to be adressed immediately, which it does... regardless of how much PR mumbo jumbo the statement had.
Metfanant
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(10-15-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Deku Tree

So they didn’t deny offering him $20k? Is that like an admission?

100% no, it is not an admission at all...and if the $20k was part of a severance package due to being laid off, they couldn't even talk about it if they wanted to. They can't disclose information like that about an employee
GHG
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(10-15-2017, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Random Human

“We take accusations of harassment seriously and will be launching a full investigation” and then you launch a full investigation. You don’t hand wave it away by saying there was no complaint so that’s that.

It doesn't work like this at any company unfortunately.

If you didn't report something in the correct way through the correct channels at the time you were employee then you are shit out of luck. Companies won't waste resources retrospectively investigating incidents that essentially amount to he said/she said (because he doesn't have any evidence).

If he had evidence then they would be forced to investigate it, but until he can offer something up then this will continue to be their stance.

Welcome to the dark cold corporate world.
mrk8885
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:50 PM)
Not sure why this is worth discussing, since the vast majority of you have already decided Sony/ND are guilty.
Marcel
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(10-15-2017, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by ckaneo

He said they offer him 20k. "No evidence". Well someone is lying.

If an informal offer was made over the phone as the victim's story seems to say then there wouldn't be evidence. Nothing was signed or put to paper in the first place.
Upinsmoke
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(10-15-2017, 05:51 PM)
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One thing I'm not fully grasping here, is why hasn't he gone back to ND and told them the situation. I mean it's all over the internet now. He's got his word and that's it by the sounds of things. Would it not be worth it raising this issue again internally and then say well I've got no other option to speak out.

I mean name the person then. It sounds like it's happened before, it might be rampant. He's obviously not bothered about naming ND so name the individual too.
ckaneo
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(10-15-2017, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Marcel

If an informal offer was made over the phone as the victim's story seems to say then there wouldn't be evidence. Nothing was signed or put to paper in the first place.

Well then that phone call would be documented at the very least
KingV
Member
(10-15-2017, 05:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Boke1879

Well it's something you want to get out in front of fast.

But like I said in the other thread. Unless the person has proof and if he ever did I hope he kept it. Then it's going to be a bit tough. Who was notified? Did he go to ND first or did he just go to HR etc.

You do. But I think the only possible good response is to say “we are reaching out to Mr. Ballard and investigating further”.

Because this is probably going to blow up in their face when he names whoever it is and starts to give more details.
Sad Affleck
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(10-15-2017, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Symphonia

It frustrates me how eager people are to pull the trigger where there is no evidence from either party. Wouldn’t it be better to wait and see the proof before releasing the hounds? If Dave had made complaints, there would be records on his end. Likewise, ND will have a record somewhere.

Did you see any evidence in the Weinstein case? What kind of evidence do you expect someone to get for such a case?
robotrock
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

One thing I'm not fully grasping here, is why hasn't he gone back to ND and told them the situation. I mean it's all over the internet now. He's got his word and that's it by the sounds of things. Would it not be worth it raising this issue again internally and then say well I've got no other option to speak out.

I mean name the person then. It sounds like it's happened before, it might be rampant. He's obviously not bothered about naming ND so name the individual too.

ND probably doesn’t want to hear it
Marcel
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(10-15-2017, 05:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

One thing I'm not fully grasping here, is why hasn't he gone back to ND and told them the situation. I mean it's all over the internet now. He's got his word and that's it by the sounds of things. Would it not be worth it raising this issue again internally and then say well I've got no other option to speak out.

I mean name the person then. It sounds like it's happened before, it might be rampant. He's obviously not bothered about naming ND so name the individual too.

Naming the individual opens the victim up for being sued for defamation at the personal level by the accused.
CrichtonKicks
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(10-15-2017, 05:54 PM)
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I don't think people understand how severance packages work. It's usually framed as X weeks of pay type of thing.

$20,000 lump sum sounds like a potentially big payout but, assuming that he was decently paid for the industry, it was probably more like 2.5 months pay which isn't extravagant in the slightest.

Originally Posted by Sad Affleck

Did you see any evidence in the Weinstein case? What kind of evidence do you expect someone to get for such a case?

A journalist investigating this would help. The common thread to most Weinstein accusations is that the various reporters talked to others who corroborated that the accusers told them of the situation at the time.
GHG
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(10-15-2017, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

One thing I'm not fully grasping here, is why hasn't he gone back to ND and told them the situation. I mean it's all over the internet now. He's got his word and that's it by the sounds of things. Would it not be worth it raising this issue again internally and then say well I've got no other option to speak out.

I mean name the person then. It sounds like it's happened before, it might be rampant. He's obviously not bothered about naming ND so name the individual too.

There's a weird phenomenon with a lot of sexual harassment cases whereby the victim will be reluctant to name and shame the aggressor because they don't want to be responsible for ruining that other persons career/life.

It's also the reason why victims don't press charges in a lot of cases.
Remij
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(10-15-2017, 05:54 PM)
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Actually... looking over David's twitter posts about this, he clearly states that after he told them about the harassment they 'ended the call'. Surely there would be some type of evidence of this call, wouldn't there?
Trojan
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(10-15-2017, 05:55 PM)
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That was quick, here come the conspiracy and cover-up theories. Can't people wait at least a few days to see how this plays out?
Metfanant
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(10-15-2017, 05:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingV

You do. But I think the only possible good response is to say “we are reaching out to Mr. Ballard and investigating further”.

Because this is probably going to blow up in their face when he names whoever it is and starts to give more details.

this does nothing but prove that you dont understand how this type of situation works...there is absolutely no way in hell a corporation is going to reach out to an accuser like that...the legal ramifications of doing so would be IMMENSE...
esmith08734
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(10-15-2017, 05:56 PM)
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I guess this just got messier. It's really hard to get proof unless this guy was recording conversations or archiving emails or whatever.

I definitely believe the guy. I mean, why would he make this up? I think the only way this generates steam is if multiple people come out and back this guy's claim up. It looks like a name of the person in question will be released.
Boke1879
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(10-15-2017, 05:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by KingV

You do. But I think the only possible good response is to say “we are reaching out to Mr. Ballard and investigating further”.

Because this is probably going to blow up in their face when he names whoever it is and starts to give more details.

NO! they are not going to contact him. For many reasons. That could be viewed as harassment itself. This isn't a criminal investigation. No company would do that.
mrk8885
Banned
(10-15-2017, 05:56 PM)

Originally Posted by Trojan

That was quick, here come the conspiracy and cover-up theories. Can't people wait at least a few days to see how this plays out?

Sorry. It’s 2017. Twitter accusations are hard evidence.
Complistic
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(10-15-2017, 05:57 PM)
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Better have some evidence lol.
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(10-15-2017, 05:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Symphonia

It frustrates me how eager people are to pull the trigger where there is no evidence from either party. Wouldn’t it be better to wait and see the proof before releasing the hounds? If Dave had made complaints, there would be records on his end. Likewise, ND will have a record somewhere.

Sadly most people just want blood if these threads are any indication.
Anung
Un Rama
(10-15-2017, 05:57 PM)
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About the response you'd expect really. We'll probably get a similar one from Sony soon.

I made the mistake of reading the twitter comments and oh boy you'd think that this company that makes the good games were people's family or something.

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