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Ellie is the main playable character in The Last of Us: Part II

TheStruggler

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Xe4 said:
Speaking of women enimies, I wonder what the reaction to the E3 demo would've been if the final shotgun blast to the face being of a woman rather than a man.

Women still are held to double standards, including being antagonists. Is the reason they were not included the animation? Maybe, but I think there's a broader discussion tone had about violence against women I'm video games and societies reaction to it.
Click to expand...

there were female infected you could shotgun blast in the face but you are right there were no female hunters, so will be interesting to see because they will probably be in part II
 
F

FarFromAnyGame

Banned
Xe4 said:
Speaking of women enimies, I wonder what the reaction to the E3 demo would've been if the final shotgun blast to the face being of a woman rather than a man.

Women still are held to double standards, including being antagonists. Is the reason they were not included the animation? Maybe, but I think there's a broader discussion tone had about violence against women I'm video games and societies reaction to it.
Click to expand...

You can perform execute animations on women in the multiplayer. Some of them are more violent than singleplayer animations.
 
G

Garrett Hawke

Member
Xe4 said:
Speaking of women enimies, I wonder what the reaction to the E3 demo would've been if the final shotgun blast to the face being of a woman rather than a man.

Women still are held to double standards, including being antagonists. Is the reason they were not included the animation? Maybe, but I think there's a broader discussion tone had about violence against women I'm video games and societies reaction to it.
Click to expand...

assassin's creed syndicate had no issue with this, i think some studios are just dragging their heels because, unless it's planned from the out, it is extra work.

if they go in with the intentions of doing it they can just have animations/rigs designed to accommodate for both.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Laughing Banana said:
Nope, it's really not unreasonable to view his actions as selfish and evil. Evil in the way that he clearly prioritized his own feelings, his own well-being, above the possible salvation of humanity, above even what Ellie actually wanted--He wanted Ellie all for himself, without willing to hear what she herself wanted. He even killed Marlene in cold blood because he didn't want the safety of his selfishness to be compromised in any way.

That what makes the ending so powerful and unique, in my eyes. It's different than many other endings where good and evils are so easily defined.
Click to expand...

TIL parental love is evil.

Tell me you would have done any differently than Joel if it were your daughter.
 
D

Dreez

Member
Laughing Banana said:
Nope, it's really not unreasonable to view his actions as selfish and evil. Evil in the way that he clearly prioritized his own feelings, his own well-being, above the possible salvation of humanity, above even what Ellie actually wanted--He wanted Ellie all for himself, without willing to hear what she herself wanted. He even killed Marlene in cold blood because he didn't want the safety of his selfishness to be compromised in any way.

That what makes the ending so powerful and unique, in my eyes. It's different than many other endings where good and evils are so easily defined.
Click to expand...

The lie could've been to keep her mind at ease as well... what transpired doesn't need to be her burden but his. And that's a parental choice.

Edit: and it's not necessarily evil, depending on whether you think what he did was right or not. I personally think he did the right thing since they didn't let him speak to her at all.
 
O

ozmozz

Member
We're probably not ready for a "I spit on your grave" storyline, yet. Right?!
That's pretty dark even for this series. That said, cannot wait to play this game.
 
Laughing Banana

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Morrigan Stark said:
TIL parental love is evil.

Tell me you would have done any differently than Joel if it were your daughter.
Click to expand...

Sheeeshhh.

I said repeatedly in that while I recognize that the parental love itself that Joel felt for Ellie is pure, or maybe "real" is the more correct word--I never once disputed that--it's the acts compelled by that love that may go beyond what is acceptable in the "it's a moral/good thing to do" standard. After all, people do all sort of crazy things because of love. What we're discussing in here right now is whether Joel's acts trespass the "good" threshold or not, and not whether "parental love is evil" or whether he truly loves Ellie or not or whatever.

Dreez said:
The lie could've been to keep her mind at ease as well... what transpired doesn't need to be her burden but his. And that's a parental choice.

Edit: and it's not necessarily evil, depending on whether you think what he did was right or not. I personally think he did the right thing since they didn't let him speak to her at all.
Click to expand...

That's a good interpretation.
 
D

DAREALGUMMY

Member
jaaz said:
Even Druckmann disagrees with you:

“One of the things that happened during production was I became a dad to a girl (it sounds weird to say it like that). One of the first ‘ah ha!’ moments I had when working on the story and structure, was when we figured out Joel’s arc. His arc is all about this irrational love he feels for this kid. He would do anything to take away her pain and definitely anything in the world save her from harm. It’s about how far this guy is willing to go to save Ellie. Clearly he’s willing to give up his life (he frankly doesn’t care much about it),” said Druckmann.

http://o.canada.com/technology/gaming/the-last-of-us-how-the-games-creator-envisions-its-ending

That sounds nothing like evilness and selfishness, unless you think parental love is just that. But we can agree to disagree I guess.
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That's the epitome of selfishness. HE is willing to do anything to save her. It's what HE thinks is right to do. Not for humanity, not for Ellie, but for him. He then LIES about it. How can that get any clearer?
 
CrimsonSquall

CrimsonSquall

Member
DAREALGUMMY said:
That's the epitome of selfishness. HE is willing to do anything to save her. It's what HE thinks is right to do. Not for humanity, not for Ellie, but for him. He then LIES about it. How can that get any clearer?
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Because it's never complete selfishness if it's for someone else also. We can make the argument that he did it for his own best interests whatever the case may be, but he's still helping her and putting her best interests at hand as well
 
P

Paganmoon

Member
sjay1994 said:
PS3, it can only do everything except women.

Honestly, I shouldn't doubt them but considering the MP had female characters (with similar animations to Joel) and Uncharted 4 had no female enemies (grunts) I have a hard time believing that.
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Laughing Banana said:
Hoh, so it's "impossible to animate" women thingie like the one pulled by Ubisoft.
Click to expand...

It's not unheard of for last gen games. Mass Effect 3 didn't have a holster animation unlike ME1 and ME2 (even on PC), cause they didn't have enough memory to work with on last gen consoles so they had to make concessions on what to keep, so it got removed for the third installment.
 
P

patapuf

Member
Joel giving Ellie up for the greater good wouldn't make him any less selfish of a character, nor would it make him a better person.

Think about it: Does dragging a teenage girl who trusts him to the fireflies so she can be sacrificed for the greater good sound like something "morally good"?

Does explaining to a girl that, unless she is willing to kill herself, humanity will be doomed, sound like a choice you give her? Or will it be a burden she will carry with herself for the rest of her life should she chose to live?

There's no winning move here, which is why it's a good conflict. As by the numbers as the rest of TLOU is, this part was really well done.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
Not too stoked about Ellie being the main playable character, simply because this means losing a huge part of the brutal hand to hand fighting that was one of the things that really set Tlou apart for me. I hope it doesn't lose the perfect balance between action and stealth the first had.
But it's going to be thematically interesting.
 
Orpheum

Orpheum

Member
eso76 said:
Not too stoked about Ellie being the main playable character, simply because this means losing a huge part of the brutal hand to hand fighting that was one of the things that really set Tlou apart for me. I hope it doesn't lose the perfect balance between action and stealth the first had.
But it's going to be thematically interesting.
Click to expand...

Just because we're playing as Ellie, doesn't mean we'll lose the awesome fist-fights. She's older and i assume a lot tougher than in the first game. If anything, i believe ND will build up on those older game mechanics and even enhance them. I wouldn't worry too much, they know the franchise and what made it good in the first place.They have most certainly proven themselves over the last couple of years :)
 
D

DrunkShogun

Member
Orpheum said:
Just because we're playing as Ellie, doesn't mean we'll lose the awesome fist-fights. She's older and i assume a lot tougher than in the first game. If anything, i believe ND will build up on those older game mechanics and even enhance them. I wouldn't worry too much, they know the franchise and what made it good in the first place.They have most certainly proven themselves over the last couple of years :)
Click to expand...

They would just change the animations for the combat. If Ellie lacks the physical power then throw some kicks in or other variation that makes sense. The two things needed are clickers and human enemies both at the same time that interact with each other and the op bow.
 
C

Chao

Member
eso76 said:
Not too stoked about Ellie being the main playable character, simply because this means losing a huge part of the brutal hand to hand fighting that was one of the things that really set Tlou apart for me. I hope it doesn't lose the perfect balance between action and stealth the first had.
But it's going to be thematically interesting.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that ,
winter
chapter was pretty brutal
 
Trumpets

Trumpets

Member
I'd love for them to go super downbeat with this and document the end of the human race, with Ellie alone at the end of the game as the actual 'Last of Us'. I doubt NG have the balls to go that dark, but it would be something else.
 
wapplew

wapplew

Member
eso76 said:
Not too stoked about Ellie being the main playable character, simply because this means losing a huge part of the brutal hand to hand fighting that was one of the things that really set Tlou apart for me. I hope it doesn't lose the perfect balance between action and stealth the first had.
But it's going to be thematically interesting.
Click to expand...

Knife is more brutal. Slit.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
DrunkShogun said:
They would just change the animations for the combat. If Ellie lacks the physical power then throw some kicks in or other variation that makes sense.
Click to expand...

But that's the whole problem.
Animations are what made those fights stand out. We'll see how they are going to handle this with a female protagonist, i just hope it doesn't go too stealth.

Also, Joel was awesome.
 
kraspkibble

kraspkibble

Permabanned.
PositiveGamer said:
Did anyone notice the back window in the trailer with the leaves? I am pretty sure that's the same window from the opening of last of us 1..

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

it's not the same one.

fow9XB4.jpg
 
P

Prototype Viktor

Member
Laughing Banana said:
Okay okay okay you guys won I conceded the point.



It's more of a, "Love and fear of loss can compel you to do utterly selfish and yes, possibly evil things as well." It's not that I don't understand why Joel did what he did, but for me I don't really view his actions as something that is filled with pure noble intentions as well.
Click to expand...
They were "cheating" on animations just to fit yhe memory, the documentary briefly mentioned it with them showing Joel skipping motions and just popping to ending animations
 
D

DrunkShogun

Member
eso76 said:
But that's the whole problem.
Animations are what made those fights stand out. We'll see how they are going to handle this with a female protagonist, i just hope it doesn't go too stealth.

Also, Joel was awesome.
Click to expand...

Yeah don't go too steath, but I remember Joel being mainly about the punches. Felt great but i could Ellie throwing knees and elbows and think it will offer the same Joel feel of combat.
 
C

Can Crusher

Banned
Ellie being the main character was predictable, considering the first game and the subsequent DLC serving as an origin story for her. I really liked Joel so this bums me a bit.
 
wapplew

wapplew

Member
I wonder how they balance the bleak setting, the first game have Ellie and her jokes, she doesn't seems like in the mood for that in part 2.
 
R

Retsudo

Member
LurkFish17 said:
I've seen some people think that they won't be able to do brutal combat slamming people around like in the first game with ellie since it would break the realism. This dude is one anyway. (Not that I think there's any worry about the game being bad)

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=pgypOxn2688
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On his point on stealth and combat. He mentions how he hated stealth sections in the game, and how he feels making Ellie the main character will lead to an over use of stealth in Part 2. I disagree completely with him.
Sure if you only play in Normal/Hard in the first game you can have a go at it almost like Rambo, but it shows that he didnt play it in Survivor/Grounded difficulties, because if he had he'd known that stealth was a must there. Even then, just by being an older Ellie, a more experienced and trained Ellie, i expect her to be a lot more brutal than Joel, especially because the theme of the game is poised that way.
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
Laughing Banana said:
Nope, it's really not unreasonable to view his actions as selfish and evil. Evil in the way that he clearly prioritized his own feelings, his own well-being, above the possible salvation of humanity, above even what Ellie actually wanted--He wanted Ellie all for himself, without willing to hear what she herself wanted. He even killed Marlene in cold blood because he didn't want the safety of his selfishness to be compromised in any way.

That what makes the ending so powerful and unique, in my eyes. It's different than many other endings where good and evils are so easily defined.
Click to expand...

Do you think Marlene would have let Joel live if he handed over Ellie? Joel killed the person who sent Ellie to die, without her permission. Regardless of how Ellie felt about giving her life, she was never actually given an option about this.

"Cold blood" is such a strange phrase to use on someone who leads a group of people that have thrived on destabalizing the last QZ Zones in America. She had zero qualms with taking agency away from Joel to kill Ellie, and threatening to put a bullet in Joels head of he wanted to cause a fuss

"This is a gift, dont waste it", said the person who kidnapped the mans daughter and is about to disect her like a frog so this person can have the ultimate Trump card to hold over the rest of humanity. We have seen just how well and nice the Fireflies have been to other groups, Im sure entrusting them with absolute power would go over well.

There is very little "Evil" in TLoU. David would be considered the only person who would fit that description because he clearly uses his power over others for his fucked up sexual desires. Being a canable 20 years after the fall of society isnt even all that evil either, its just desperate.

Joel is selfish, but being selfish is not evil. If it is, then any parent who prioritizes the wellbeing of their kids over others are evil, and thats ridiculous.

No father/mother would sacrifice their kid for a post society humanity like the one Joel has lived in. Nobody has the right to tell him to sacrifice his only loved one for the "greater good". Even if he did ultimately rob Ellie of her own personal salvation, it wasnt the Fireflies call to split her brain open out of pure desperation.

DAREALGUMMY said:
That's the epitome of selfishness. HE is willing to do anything to save her. It's what HE thinks is right to do. Not for humanity, not for Ellie, but for him. He then LIES about it. How can that get any clearer?
Click to expand...

Ok, letting a loved one not die is both

1) Selfish because of your love to them
2) Selfless because you care enough about them to rampage through a hospital of heavily armed men to make sure the person you love is still alive and isn't harmed.

Viewing Joel's "irrational love" as something strange and indicative of a psychopath is basically warping his words to fit a personal view that Joel is a psychopath. Joel has like, no psychopathic tendencies, at all. He has emotions, he has empathy, he cares for others... He was visibly shocked at the death of Henry, was basically guilted into taking Ellie because of his connection to Tess (what ever that was), and eventually allowed Ellie into his life and took her in as his own.

Will Joel break your fucking knee cap if you cross him? Yea! Joel is not a good person. He has killed innocent people, we know this, Joel does not shy away from his past. He's not hiding what he has done or what he is willing and capable of doing, and you can see this tension with his brother and what they did together over a decade ago.

Because at the end of the day, do you want to be Joel, or the poor saps who were gunned down in the middle of Pittsburgh by a 50 cal. because you decided you were going to be a "good" person?
 
B

badcrumble

Member
What I love about Joel's arc is that he basically gave up his humanity a long time ago to become a survivor; in attempting to reclaim it by rescuing Ellie, he actually in many ways fully and finally gives in to becoming a monster.
 
R

Rei_Toei

Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
Maybe Joel will get DLC after the base game comes out. That be neat :).

I'm quite stoked about this. I never cared much for the Uncharted franchise but TLOU really resonated with me. I played U4 mostly to get a feel for what ND had in store for us with a follow-up to TLOU, and while it is a magnificent technological powerhouse of a game, it really cemented my conviction that ND can do so much better with a bit more mature content.

I really hope the rumours from that magazine scan from a while back (not sure if it is been proven fake already or not) turn out to be (partially) true. TLOU shouldn't go all sandbox I think, but bigger environments, more possible approaches in level structure would really add to the atmosphere and make TLOU's world even more believable. I'd also love if we get more insights into the different factions, settlements, attempts at returning to a form of civilization (like the settlement were Joel's brother lived) and all that.

Returning to Ellie and Joel as the main characters, well that is tricky. I kinda expected ND to provide them with a role in a possible sequel, but as supporting characters - they already had their lifetime adventure and all that, provide a new perspective and narrative with fresh characters placed in a different era, different circumstances. From a business perspective returning to Ellie and Joel makes sense since they're much-loved by the fans. If (some of) the same writers are involved, I'm not really worried though.

The guys behind Days Gone really gonna have some stiff competition in the post-apocalyptic, pulling-your-heartstrings genre :)
 
T

theWB27

Member
Ricky_R said:
Of course he was selfish, that's the whole point. He didn't want to go through the same loss again, but he definitely cared about her at that point which is why he wanted to ditch her. He wanted to protect himself, but didn't want to lose her which is why he recapacitated soon enough because he knew she would be safer by his side.

It was then when he finally opened up. His selfishness then was fueled by Ellie and her well being. So, if your argument is that Joel is selfish, then yeah, that much is obvious, but if it's to the point that he actually didn't care about her at all then I'll just disagree.

Also, his decision in the end benefited both. After all they went through, the least Ellie deserved was a chance to decide. He did what he did for both, like any caring parent would. I know I would if it was my daughter, without any hesitation.
Click to expand...

That's all my argument is. I don't think I've gone as far as saying he didn't care about her. I just feel like he made decisions, at crucial times, that benefited himself more.

I didn't even say he made the wrong choice at the end. I just said the lie is what messed it all up. In the sequel...it MAY have consequences.

That's been my argument this whole time.
 
R

Ricky_R

Member
theWB27 said:
That's all my argument is. I don't think I've gone as far as saying he didn't care about her. I just feel like he made decisions, at crucial times, that benefited himself more.

I didn't even say he made the wrong choice at the end. I just said the lie is what messed it all up. In the sequel...it MAY have consequences.

That's been my argument this whole time.
Click to expand...

Ok, cool. I think our opinions generally align then. ;)
 
T

TheLostBigBoss

Banned
I want to submit a counter argument to people who say that Joel is a monster because of his decision at the end of the game.

What if Joel had been told, "Ellie is being prepped for surgery, she will not survive the operation", and his response was,

"Oh, it's the only way?"

"Yes, there is no other way to get what we need to create a cure."

"Can I see her?"

"No"

"Oh, well, I'm sure that's what she wanted, where are my guns?"

Laughing Banana said:
On the risk of being called on by some due to me disagreeing again with Druckmann again, hahaha, I just want to say that my interpretation does not really clash with he said in here.

If you notice, even he called it "irrational" love, so it's not really far-fetched to say that in order to satisfy that irrational love, he's willing to do whatever it takes, even if it meant disregarding what is possibly best for the world, what Ellie truly wanted, or worse, lying directly to her face.

Also, it's not that I do not understand how the things that Joel had done was motivated by his parental love--I did not question his love for Ellie, I merely questioned the acts that he pulled off because of that love. Like I said, it's how love can compel you to do questionable things, beyond all reasoning, beyond any rational thoughts.

It's a great ending precisely because it can spark discussion like this.
Click to expand...

What does Joel owe the "world" and the remaining vestiges and pockets of humanity that are left? It's not like a cure is going to bring society and order back.
 
P

PhantomX1313

Member
They should clear their stance, if its clearly ellie focused story with joel as a side character cuz their actions rep this. Tlou was clearly not ellie story it was boths.
 
S

SuperEpicMan

Banned
I think the room might be Joel's house from the beginning of the first game.

Edit: Actually watching some footage of the first game, I am not so sure anymore.
 
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