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Down syndrome in Iceland is disappearing due to abortions

A

AuthenticM

Member
Westraid said:
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Click to expand...

Beautiful post. Thank you for sharing.
 
M

mcarlie

Banned
Rayne009 said:
So you think banning abortions merely diminishes them compared to birth control and sex ed? So instead of using birth control you'd rather get women doing things like dumping babies in toilets, using coat hangers, throwing themselves down stairs, having someone beat them, buying medicine from out of the country that's clearly not been properly vetted, and so on. Then that's not even going into the other effects of women giving birth that are clearly not ready, willing or equipped for it. But if you think that's a trivialization on how women who did not want to give birth would dump their children like garbage assuming they didn't go to some back alley hack and end dying as a result while wealthier women took abortion trips to other countries and come back fine by all means.
Click to expand...
No, I don't want women to do any of these things obviously. There's no argument that, necessarily, making abortion illegal would result in these events occurring in a frequent enough manner that the net moral gain is negative.

That said I love how it's moral trivialization to realize that people have different circumstances and to know I know less about their situation than they do. That's rich.

Yes she did and she decided that she no longer wanted to host the child therefore her rights trump that of the fetus that is dependent on her body to live.
Click to expand...

It's moral trivialisation to claim that the act is not immoral. You need to bring up specific examples and demonstrate why the particular situation justifies the act. You are speaking too generally for me to be able to respond in any real way.
 
K

Keri

Member
Westraid said:
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Click to expand...

Such an important post. Thank you for sharing.

Obviously, people who are born with Down Syndrome can live happy and meaningful lives, but it can't be denied that raising a child with Down Syndrome is extraordinarily difficult, not just for the parents, but for any other children in the family. It's not something that all families are equipped to cope with and it shouldn't be an experience forced on anyone. While it is possible to have a happy life with Down Syndrome, the odds of that being the case must plummet dramatically, if the child is born into a family that has decided they cannot or do not want to cope with the condition.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
mcarlie said:
An unwanted pregnancy requires a prior act that is known to lead to it. No I don't think that they should be put in jail.

In your example the person's body isn't a necessary requirement for the person's life. Even if we exclude the legal dimension, I don't think you can escape from the moral one, unless you are willing to admit that the action is immoral yet still want to argue for it's legality.
Click to expand...

I mean ultimately it's more immoral to force a pregnancy than to allow abortion.

That said I don't really give that much of a fuck about what one considers moral so yeah I am actually just matter of fact arguing legality
 
Ryzaki009

Ryzaki009

Member
mcarlie said:
No, I don't want women to do any of these things obviously. There's no argument that, necessarily, making abortion illegal would result in these events occurring in a frequent enough manner that the net moral gain is negative.



It's moral trivialisation to claim that the act is not immoral. You need to bring up specific examples and demonstrate why the particular situation justifies the act. You are speaking too generally for me to be able to respond in any real way.
Click to expand...

You mean outside of the women who actually lived through those times mentioning that's how things were done instead of an abortion right? Also moral net gain what is the relevance of that and why do you think I care about what you think is moral? My concern is women's lives and futures and that's far more important than your so called morality.

Also I'm being general because there is no one size fits all solution that's kind of the point and why a blanket ban of abortion is absurd.
 
E

Eye for an Eye

Member
SummitAve said:
No government regulations regarding choice in abortions is not something any side really argues though. Even pro-choice. It's always been a debate over how much choice, even some of the staunchest supporters of pro-life will admit there are circumstances where they are ok with abortion. I think it should be in the hands of the government to some extent, and I don't think women should have unlimited choice.
Click to expand...

There are other countries with with vary limited regulations. Most women that have clear and unrestricted access to early abortions will get them for unwanted pregnancies. Later term abortions for unwanted pregnancies happen often because of lack of care available and financial burden.

Later term abortions for medical reasons happen when anomolies become apparent during the ultrasounds. Vary rarely, do problems happen beyond 24 weeks, but it's entirely possible for a fetus to have a stroke or delevope hydrocephalus or some other condition. Twin to twin transfusion could cause severe problems for a devolping fetus. Women who receive these diagnosis are put against a time clock to speak with specialists, get further screening tests, mri's or ct scans, and still be able to make an informed decision.
 
Airola

Airola

Member
Ondor said:
I know you're Finnish but a lot of posters here are American and drawing parallels to left ideology with Hitler days after someone is murdered by a right-wing neo-nazi is bound to only inflame people's opinions and stifle any meaningful discusiion in regards to this topic.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think you might be right.

Apologies to anyone I offended.
 
J

JJD

Member
Man this is tough.

As a father of a healthy small girl I frankly don't know what I would do if my kid screened for Down syndrome.

I don't judge anyone who chooses to not go forward on a pregnancy like that, it must be a hard, difficult decision, as hard as taking care of a child with complicated health issues.

Before I was a father I always thought that I would choose to not go forward on cases like that easily, but now I just can't say the same.

It's strange for me to realize how fatherhood changed me.
 
S

sturmdogg

Member
Is genetic manipulation a thing now? Would it be possible to just fix whatever it is that causes Down syndrome so the baby can be carried to term?
 
I

Instro

Member
sturmdogg said:
Is genetic manipulation a thing now? Would it be possible to just fix whatever it is that causes Down syndrome so the baby can be carried to term?
Click to expand...

I don't think we are there yet. On the flip side with tests getting better, more accurate, less invasive, etc., we can catch most of this stuff earlier and earlier.
 
S

Strax

Member
'Hearkens Back to Nazi Germany': Palin Rips Iceland's Down Syndrome Abortion Policy

More quotes in the video interview at the link

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) criticized a CBS News report revealing Iceland's practice of aborting babies suspected to have Down Syndrome.

Palin, whose son Trig was born with Down Syndrome in 2008, said the practice is abhorrent.

"To try to snuff out a life, in the name of building a perfect race... hearkens back to Nazi Germany," she said.

Helga Sol Olafsdottir of Landspitali University Hospital in Reykjavik said she "doesn't see abortion as a murder."

"We see it as a thing we ended [to] prevent suffering," Olafsdottir said.

Another hospital worker, Hulda Hjartardottir, said babies with Down Syndrome are still being born, albeit because "we didn't find them when we screened."

Palin said she couldn't watch the entire report without her "heart breaking."

"This intolerance for people who may not look like you... [is] wrong [and] evil," Palin said.

She said that when Trig was born, she too was fearful of his possible syndrome, but that she immediately looked to God and found purpose in Trig's life.

"Life matters and love matters and who are we without love and acceptance?" she asked.
Click to expand...
 
S

SporeCrawler

Member
Westraid said:
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Click to expand...
My daughter does not suffer from Down Syndrome and we never opted for prenatal diagnostics but Id be lying if I would say that I would not have been devastated, if she ended up being born with Down Syndrome.

I really felt shitty about GAF when I read some of the first posts here on this thread mainly talking about "good riddance" or something. While I do think that banning abortion is not the right way, I oppose to the notion that people with Down Syndrome are just not worth it and killing them off is good because that way you are not going to let them suffer. I accept that abortion is not the same as killing a baby and that until a certain stadium of the pregnancy it should be left a choice. But lets not pretend that its better for the life that is being killed
Strax said:
'Hearkens Back to Nazi Germany': Palin Rips Iceland's Down Syndrome Abortion Policy

More quotes in the video interview at the link
Click to expand...

Cant say that she is entirely wrong with that reference to Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany did kill of mentally disabled people under the name of Euthanasie (eugenics). Many people were handled as lives that are unworthy to live.

Once again, mass murdering people that are already born and ending a pregnancy is not the same thing but we are really entering a slippery slope with the modern prenatal diagnostics.
 
Charles Brandon

Charles Brandon

Member
This is kind of a silly story but I once saw a group of DS teenagers walking through Liverpool around the year 2000. All of them were dressed normally except one teenager who was a few paces behind, strutting like a peacock and dressed head-to-toe like 80s era Flavor Flav including the fucking clock round his neck. You do not expect to see that from anyone in Liverpool. Reason for the post is, that that kid challenged a lot of my pre-conceptions about what living with Downs is like because he obviously had a much stronger, more idiosyncratic personality than I previously thought was possible for someone with that condition.

That's not to say I am against screening or aborting. Screening is offered as standard here in the UK and you get offered a risk profile and if the risk is very high you get the option to terminate. Fortunately, our risk was very low for both kids. I don't know what my decision would have been if it had been higher.
 
1

1upsuper

Member
Quality of life is a tricky thing. While I support anyone's choice to terminate a pregnancy, the sentiment that abortion of a would-be disabled infant is in the infant's best interest makes me very nervous. I've gone through hell as a severely disabled person but fuck, I'm sure glad I'm alive. It's extremely difficult to determine *potential* quality of life because it varies so much and it isn't always easy to predict. Certainly certain complications and disabilities are much harder on individuals than others. But I worry that people consider "disability" a uniform thing sometimes, when it's definitely not. The choice to proceed or terminate is a right owed to everyone, but I would be careful when evaluating quality of life. The hardships involved in raising disabled kids cannot be understated, however. It takes a toll.

Mammoth Jones said:
Having lived with a sibling with severe disabilities I can't blame parents one fucking second for choosing to abort a child when discovered to have those conditions.

It's a huge fucking life changing sacrafice and NO ONE gives a good god damn fucking shit to help. None of these "pro-life" conservatives were there to help during the seizures, during the violent temper tantrums from a teenager with severe brain damage. They didn't help wipe up feces, or mop up urine, or clean bite wounds.

My mother felt very strongly about not having abortions and we respect her choice but none of her good christian friends came by the house and offered to help with care. Not fucking once. No, they claim god punished my mother for her sins.

So this is a personal subject for me. When my wife was pregnant we had a LONG heartfelt conversation about it. And no decision like this is easy. She gave her views and I gave mine and thankfully we both agreed: If test showed severe brain damage or huge disabilities like this we'd abort. Ultimate we both agreed it was her body and I'd support her decision no matter what but we both understood the burden it would bring and the unfair life with no support.

If conservatives want less abortions they need to offer support and services to people to help with with their kids. Cause even to this day my sister requires 24/7 around the clock care. And no one but our immediate family gives a rats ass. Just like someone may abort due to being unable to provide for a child or unable to bear the burden of a child at that stage. Their body. Their choice.

Easy to have these high-minded ethical mental masturbation sessions when you're not bleaching up shit at 3am.
Click to expand...

This is also spot on.
 
Charles Brandon

Charles Brandon

Member
1upsuper said:
Quality of life is a tricky thing. While I support anyone's choice to terminate a pregnancy, the sentiment that abortion of a would-be disabled infant is in the infant's best interest makes me very nervous. I've gone through hell as a severely disabled person but fuck, I'm sure glad I'm alive. It's extremely difficult to determine *potential* quality of life because it varies so much and it isn't always easy to predict. Certainly certain complications and disabilities are much harder on individuals than others. But I worry that people consider "disability" a uniform thing sometimes, when it's definitely not. The choice to proceed or terminate is a right owed to everyone, but I would be careful when evaluating quality of life. The hardships involved in raising disabled kids cannot be understated, however. It takes a toll.
Click to expand...

I think one important factor is if you already have other kids. I think you have to give a lot of thought to how your decision will affect them because if you do bring up a child who is severely mentally incapacitated, you are not going to have a lot of time for your other child(ren).
 
H

hey_monkey

Banned
spons said:
Unless you have proper health insurance, a child with autism will probably cost the same as someone with down syndrome. Coaching, special education, therapy, etc. It's just a question of whether you want to put up with it.
Click to expand...

Ehhh, this kind of blanket statement isn't really accurate, I think. Down Syndrome can produce a lot of physical issues that require surgery on top of mental/emotional steps the parents must take, whereas the autism spectrum is broad and unpredictable. There are kids who don't require that much at all.
 
M

mcarlie

Banned
StoneFox said:
Okay, then she's free to also make the choice to abort because she is a rational human being.
Click to expand...

Your argument is that abortion is justified because rational human beings make the decision? Does that apply to other things as well?

Rayne009 said:
You mean outside of the women who actually lived through those times mentioning that's how things were done instead of an abortion right? Also moral net gain what is the relevance of that and why do you think I care about what you think is moral? My concern is women's lives and futures and that's far more important than your so called morality.

Also I'm being general because there is no one size fits all solution that's kind of the point and why a blanket ban of abortion is absurd.
Click to expand...

If you weren't concerned about my opinions then why did your decide to respond to me?
 
N

Ne0n

Banned
Abortion is always a difficult one for me. My mom got pregnant with me when she was 16 years old, my entire family were telling her to get rid of me. Thank Fuck she didn't. I could very well have been an abortion. But yeah the choice needs to be there and should be.
 
S

StoneFox

Member
mcarlie said:
Your argument is that abortion is justified because rational human beings make the decision? Does that apply to other things as well?
Click to expand...

Yes, I am saying that women are people who have free will. Why does it matter with other things, we are talking about abortion after conseual sex.

Women are people who can CHOOSE to have sex. They can CHOOSE to stay pregnant or get an abortion. They can CHOOSE what they do with their body the same way they can CHOOSE to donate blood or get a tattoo. Nobody else can force this upon them.

I don't have a penis, but that is not a good enough reason for me to say men shouldn't have access to Viagra or vasectomies. I cannot tell a man that he can't have sex because he might get a woman pregnant. In the same sense, I cannot tell a woman that she can't get an abortion because she had conseual sex. She has a brain, she would already know that there is always a chance. You can drive a car as safe as you can and you still may not avoid being in a car accident. Sometimes shit happens, and there are always options in response to it.
 
M

mcarlie

Banned
StoneFox said:
Yes, I am saying that women are people who have free will. Why does it matter with other things, we are talking about abortion after conseual sex.

Women are people who can CHOOSE to have sex. They can CHOOSE to stay pregnant or get an abortion. They can CHOOSE what they do with their body the same way they can CHOOSE to donate blood or get a tattoo. Nobody else can force this upon them.

I don't have a penis, but that is not a good enough reason for me to say men shouldn't have access to Viagra or vasectomies. I cannot tell a man that he can't have sex because he might get a woman pregnant. In the same sense, I cannot tell a woman that she can't get an abortion because she had conseual sex. She has a brain, she would already know that there is always a chance. You can drive a car as safe as you can and you still may not avoid being in a car accident. Sometimes shit happens, and there are always options in response to it.
Click to expand...

Other things matter because unless you apply this rule to other things it is ad hoc. You are also mentioning a lot of "other things" here which kind of defeats your point. The problem with your examples is that none of them involve a separate person who may also have rights, namely the unborn child. Getting a tattoo or donating blood involves a single person so of course it is their decision alone, however abortion involves both the mother and the unborn child.
 
P

Phii

Banned
Westraid said:
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing a wonderful post!
 
C

chadtwo

Member
I don't see how this could possibly be seen as a bad thing unless you already buy into the idea that abortion constitutes the taking of a human life.
 
M

mcarlie

Banned
StoneFox said:
The fetus can't give consent and wouldn't be aware of the difference either way. It only concerns the mother. Why does the fetus override her wants?
Click to expand...

A person in a coma couldn't give consent and would also not be aware. Being unaware or not being able to consent does not give you the permission to terminate one's life.

Also see post 328
 
M

MistakenMobius

Member
mcarlie said:
A person in a coma couldn't give consent and would also not be aware. Being unaware or not being able to consent does not give you the permission to terminate one's life.

Also see post 328
Click to expand...
Sure, Why not?
In a progressive country like the Netherlands we can get assisted suicide for depression because you will become a burden to society. The needs of the many above the needs of the few.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/features/20...sses-controverial-reasons-such-as-depression/
It's only taboo in highly religious society
 
BiGBoSSMk23

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Westraid said:
Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.
Click to expand...

This is what I came into this thread wondering.

How tough is their life, and the sacrifices of their caretakers.

Much tougher, longer and arduous than the choice.

As we move forward as a species, conception and birthing will inevitably be streamlined to maximize the benefits of the individual and of society.

Struggling with a genetic defect will be a memory of a less enlightened time, when we left life altering details up to chance.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
JeTmAn81 said:
This argument could be applied to people with children who've already been born as well. Who are we to force people to care for their children? It should be ok to abandon them on the street.
Click to expand...

Apart from what people already said, no it can't be applied because in many countries unborn fetuses do not have the same rights as children.

SporeCrawler said:
Cant say that she is entirely wrong with that reference to Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany did kill of mentally disabled people under the name of Euthanasie (eugenics). Many people were handled as lives that are unworthy to live..
Click to expand...

She is entirely wrong with the reference. This is not a state-wide policy where women are forced to stop their pregnancy to eradicate a sub-group of humans, these are many individual women who decided they would not be able to bear the burden of such babies and used their autonomy rightfully granted by the State. I honestly doubt Nazis would have allowed women to have full control of their bodies and would rather conserve a view of women as beings who exist solely for the purpose of procreation and family.
 
Ryzaki009

Ryzaki009

Member
mcarlie said:
Your argument is that abortion is justified because rational human beings make the decision? Does that apply to other things as well?



If you weren't concerned about my opinions then why did your decide to respond to me?
Click to expand...

It depends on the reasoning and circumstances I try not to paint in broad strokes.

Because I thought it was something logical and not morality nonsense.
 
E

Eye for an Eye

Member
Zoe said:
Except not.

The woman in the article who had one of the three Down's babies born that year now opposes the test despite having taken it herself.
Click to expand...
The time of her testing is significantly different than the tests given today. Those original tests gave odds, and while they may help detect Neural Tube Defects, they're not very accurate with trisomies and genetic defects. Newer NIPT's are much more accurate, in the 90% range based on age. Very rarely will a woman terminate without doing further diagnostic testing. Those blood draws are only screenings and treated as such. I've never heard or read any story of a woman terminating without diagnostic results through an level II ultrasound or DNA testing.

Some issues like Turner's that cause severe defects early in the pregnancy, a woman may go off the screening because the ultrasound revealed too many physical defects to continue the pregnancy. But that's still diagnostic, even if the genetic diagnostics isn't completed.
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
spons said:
Might as well develop a test for classical autism and remove those fetuses as well.

Where to stop though.
Click to expand...

That is exactly my issue with this, it's one step removed from eugenics. We are determining whether someone else gets to live or not based on our narrow guess of what we think that person's life might be like and whether or not they would enjoy it or, worse, whether we'd enjoy it and without even giving that person a chance to weigh in. If you honestly believe that this is okay then you are unequivocally telling every person with a Down's diagnosis that their lives aren't worth living. Somehow I doubt you'd get an enthusiastic response. There are plenty of people out there with Down's who live happy fulfilling lives. Not perfect, not without hardship or work for themselves or those who care for them, but still fulfilling. Who are we to deny people that opportunity, to pass judgment before that person is allowed to take even a single step? I honestly believe that not only is it worth it to try, but that we as a society have an obligation to make that happen, that that living breathing human being has a dignity and worth that can't be taken away by a genetic malformation or whether or not their parent thinks they're worth it. The Declaration of Independence says that all people are endowed with the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I don't remember any asterisks there.

BiGBoSSMk23 said:
This is what I came into this thread wondering.

How tough is their life, and the sacrifices of their caretakers.

Much tougher, longer and arduous than the choice.

As we move forward as a species, conception and birthing will inevitably be streamlined to maximize the benefits of the individual and of society.

Struggling with a genetic defect will be a memory of a less enlightened time, when we left life altering details up to chance.
Click to expand...

So are we to determine the dignity and worthiness of a life based on whether or not it was easy?
 
S

StoneFox

Member
mcarlie said:
A person in a coma couldn't give consent and would also not be aware. Being unaware or not being able to consent does not give you the permission to terminate one's life.

Also see post 328
Click to expand...

Then we will simply not agree because a fetus isn't a person in my opinion and someone who is currently in a coma is. A person in a coma has more rights by default. For most of its existence in the womb the fetus has to 100% rely on the mother to keep it alive. In that capacity it is more similar to an organ than an independant human. If a fetus is a person than you could argue your entire microbiota is also human when it is not.

I think you are looking at abortion through human morals, but I don't. Feel free to call me a baby murderer but I do that several times a year when my uterus sheds tissue anyway. A baby is a person when it is born in my opinion, when a mother can hold it and name it and they can bask in each other's unconditional love. To err on the side of morals at the possible expense of the mother is wrong to me. There is no need to punish her. Especially if we cannot equally punish a man for not wearing a condom.
 
E

Eye for an Eye

Member
CrunchyFrog said:
That is exactly my issue with this, it's one step removed from eugenics. We are determining whether someone else gets to live or not based on our narrow guess of what we think that person's life might be like and whether or not they would enjoy it or, worse, whether we'd enjoy it and without even giving that person a chance to weigh in. If you honestly believe that this is okay then you are unequivocally telling every person with a Down's diagnosis that their lives aren't worth living. Somehow I doubt you'd get an enthusiastic response. There are plenty of people out there with Down's who live happy fulfilling lives. Not perfect, not without hardship or work for themselves or those who care for them, but still fulfilling. Who are we to deny people that opportunity, to pass judgment before that person is allowed to take even a single step? I honestly believe that not only is it worth it to try, but that we as a society have an obligation to make that happen, that that living breathing human being has a dignity and worth that can't be taken away by a genetic malformation or whether or not their parent thinks they're worth it. The Declaration of Independence says that all people are endowed with the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I don't remember any asterisks there.



So are we to determine the dignity and worthiness of a life based on whether or not it was easy?
Click to expand...

It's not whether the potential child being born feels it should have a life worth living, it's the mother's choice to feel if she is prepared to raise such a child. I was one such person, and I chose termination.

As some one with Fragile X, I would take a long walk off a short pier, but society places more value on my life than I do myself. I think my mother was incredible foolish and selfish to have more children after my brother (resulting in me). I can't tell you a time of my life I was pleased to be alive. I have good days and bad days and have experienced many wonderful things, but I'd trade it in an instant to not deal with any of it.

Stop making assumptions on what you feel you would do or predict how you would react without ever actually facing such situations.
 
C

CrunchyFrog

Member
Eye for an Eye said:
It's not whether the potential child being born feels it should have a life worth living, it's the mother's choice to feel if she is prepared to raise such a child. I was one such person, and I chose termination.

As some one with Fragile X, I would take a long walk off a short pier, but society places more value on my life than I do myself. I think my mother was incredible foolish and selfish to have more children after my brother (resulting in me). I can't tell you a time of my life I was pleased to be alive. I have good days and bad days and have experienced many wonderful things, but I'd trade it in an instant to not deal with any of it.

Stop making assumptions on what you feel you would do or predict how you would react without ever actually facing such situations.
Click to expand...

I never made remarks on how people would or should feel about living with a genetic condition. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do and sincerely hope you can find peace and/or counsel. If I can offer you nothing else I offer you my sympathy, however much or little that might mean to you. I hope you know you aren't alone in your grief, and if you need or want someone to talk to feel free to PM me. While I wasn't born with Fragile X, and I don't pretend to know how your life might be like living with such a disease, I'd like to help in any way I can. But that's exactly my point, no one could have known with certainty that you would have ended up feeling this way. And your life is not over, and at the risk of seeming naive I hope that you can find some way to find value in what you have today and look forward to the possibility of a better tomorrow

My point is you got a chance at life and to at least make that determination of your own life yourself. Other people who have been given a chance at life with a genetic condition have gone on to live fulfilling lives, there are plenty of testimonials to that effect out there. I'm sorry you feel like you do, but would it be fair to use your own grief to pass judgment on all of them as well? If we're really supposed to believe in the freedom and individuality of the human person is it not selfish to snuff out a life before it has the chance to contemplate those ideas itself? Do we believe in the inherent dignity of a life at all? Life can be undone, death cannot. Does it not make sense to err on the side of preserving life over terminating it?
 
O

OfficerRaichu15

Member
Fuck this...
Most of these Down syndrome kids aren't suffering they are the most joyful loving people this world has(trust me I volunteered at a place in NKY called Redwood where a lot of people with Down syndrome go as well as have a cousin with Down syndrome and were they suffering...hell no).
This is selective murder and basically saying that if you aren't perfect then go fuck your self.
Disgusting
And before the people ask I am pro choice in a sense of economical and other reasons but this is just way too far.
Also this isn't going to get rid of Down syndrome.....
 
L

LegendofLex

Member
chadtwo said:
I don't see how this could possibly be seen as a bad thing unless you already buy into the idea that abortion constitutes the taking of a human life.
Click to expand...

There are a few shades to the conversation:

1) The right of a mother to terminate a pregnancy based on early detection of Down's
2) Whether it's good that abortions lead to a decline in the incidence of Down's
3) Whether it's good to believe (generally) that people with Down's should (always) be aborted/shouldn't be born

You can have a gamut of opinions across all these different topics. I don't think there's an obviously right answer (I say "yes" to 1, but it's not about Down's but instead about not controlling women's bodies/family planning decisions), just answers that we can decide are best depending on what our priorities are. Different individuals - people with Down's, mothers of people with Down's, the rest of their families and friends and acquaintances loved ones - have different experiences that make it almost impossible for there to be a universally correct reason one way or the other.
 
S

Shamrock7r

Member
St3v3 said:
It would be selfish to keep a baby that you know has downs, the kid will never have a normal life. Abortion really is best for everyone involved in this situation.
Click to expand...

AnAnole said:
It's immoral knowingly bringing a person with Down syndrome into this world.
Click to expand...

Beartruck said:
Downs is a cruel and tragic joke. Good riddance.
Click to expand...

As someone who has an uncle with mental retardation and had an aunt with down syndrome, both living and having lived great and engaging lives, in the nicest way I can say this, your twisted rationale is disgusting and reeks of lack of life experience.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
OfficerRaichu15 said:
Fuck this...
Most of these Down syndrome kids aren't suffering they are the most joyful loving people this world has(trust me I volunteered at a place in NKY called Redwood where a lot of people with Down syndrome go as well as have a cousin with Down syndrome and were they suffering...hell no).
This is selective murder and basically saying that if you aren't perfect then go fuck your self.
Disgusting
And before the people ask I am pro choice in a sense of economical and other reasons but this is just way too far.
Also this isn't going to get rid of Down syndrome.....
Click to expand...


It's abortion not murder.

You say you're pro choice but call this murder. It's still abortion. We can't just say only abortions for xyz but if abc it's murder.

Many making that choice to abort btw would do it because of economics.

Some in support of this have absolutely dehumanized people with disabilities and that's revolting but the answer can't be ban abortion or ban the tests.

The tests would allow parents who are ready for the responsibility to be made aware with enough time to learn what they might need to know and prepare for the extra responsibility
 
D

DarkKyo

Member
OfficerRaichu15 said:
Fuck this...
Most of these Down syndrome kids aren't suffering they are the most joyful loving people this world has(trust me I volunteered at a place in NKY called Redwood where a lot of people with Down syndrome go as well as have a cousin with Down syndrome and were they suffering...hell no).
This is selective murder and basically saying that if you aren't perfect then go fuck your self.
Disgusting
And before the people ask I am pro choice in a sense of economical and other reasons but this is just way too far.
Also this isn't going to get rid of Down syndrome.....
Click to expand...

The people who are saying those with down syndrome can't live fulfilling lives are obviously incorrect, but you are also wrong by saying parents should be forced to keep a child that will be a burden to them. It should be nobody's business why a parent decides to abort, but besides that I see nothing wrong with ending a fetus purely because of the excessive stress it will put on the parents for the rest of their lives.
 
O

OfficerRaichu15

Member
excelsiorlef said:
It's abortion not murder.

You say you're pro choice but call this murder. It's still abortion. We can't just say only abortions for xyz but if abc it's murder.

Many making that choice to abort btw would do it because of economics.

Some in support of this have absolutely dehumanized people with disabilities and that's revolting but the answer can't be ban abortion or ban the tests.

The tests would allow parents who are ready for the responsibility to be made aware with enough time to learn what they might need to know and prepare for the extra responsibility
Click to expand...

Iceland has some of the highest distributions of wealth in the EU as well as one of the lowest employment percentages?
http://statice.is/publications/news...on-in-iceland-among-the-most-equal-in-europe/
 
J

JCHandsom

Member
I'd recommend reading Judith Jarvis Thomson's "A Defense of Abortion" to understand the argument that even if a fetus is granted a right to life, which is a purely hypothetical conjecture for the sake of argument, abortion does not necessarily violate it. Essentially, the short version of her argument is that a right to life isn't the right not to be killed, but the right not to be killed unjustly, and that actions that result in the termination of life can be permissible. Thomson uses the example of a famous violinist who is connected to your kidneys and must remain that way for 9 months (or some other span of time) and argues that the violinist has no positive right to use your body to save their life without your permission, and that you are morally justified in choosing to disconnect him from you. It would be a kindness on your part to remain connected for the whole term, not a moral obligation you would be expected to fulfill. I'd recommend reading the whole thing to get a more complete sense of her argument instead of the cliff notes version I provided, as she goes in depth with multiple examples highlighting her case.

http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
 
O

OfficerRaichu15

Member
JCHandsom said:
I'd recommend reading Judith Jarvis Thomson's "A Defense of Abortion" to understand the argument that even if a fetus is granted a right to life, which is a purely hypothetical conjecture for the sake of argument, abortion does not necessarily violate it. Essentially, the short version of her argument is that a right to life isn't the right not to be killed, but the right not to be killed unjustly, and that actions that result in the termination of life can be permissible. Thomson uses the example of a famous violinist who is connected to your kidneys and must remain that way for 9 months (or some other span of time) and argues that the violinist has no positive right to use your body to save their life without your permission, and that you are morally justified in choosing to disconnect him from you. It would be a kindness on your part to remain connected for the whole term, not a moral obligation you would be expected to fulfill. I'd recommend reading the whole thing to get a more complete sense of her argument instead of the cliff notes version I provided, as she goes in depth with multiple examples highlighting her case.

http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm
Click to expand...
Ok there is some truth to this.
And maybe I reacted to harshly.
 
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