Katcrawler
Banned
According to the author of the story? Valve is the devil i guess or something.
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Polygon: Valve is not your friend, and Steam is not healthy for gaming
- Thread starter Guess Who
- Start date
According to the author of the story? Valve is the devil i guess or something.
Holy Order Sol
Member
it's healthy for my convenience
get fucked
get fucked
Delusibeta
Banned
Covered in the second page of this thread. Basically, the only thing that changed is that workshop creators no longer get a cut off the Battle Pass specifically.
Pureauthor
Member
They still get a cut, but the circumstances under which they qualify for a cut have been reduced, at least insofar as Dota 2 is concerned (along with a general drop in the number of new treasure chests outside of Majors).
And apropos of nothing, Gabe sent flowers to Sheever after news got out that she had breast cancer.
Candescence
Member
These are pretty much spot-on. Valve isn't perfect, nor is Steam, by any stretch, but compared to the competition aside from GoG and Humble Store, they're practically saints. Uplay is a mess, but at least they sell their games on non-Uplay platforms - Origin doesn't give you that luxury, and that's not even getting into EA as a company. And the Windows Store is an enormous garbage fire, with Microsoft desperately attempting their usual monopolistic tactics again with the UWP format.
Valve do make mistakes, but their initiatives with universal controller support/configuration, OpenVR, and attempting to make it easier to play PC games on your couch has been an absolute boon for the PC gaming space. No other competitor is doing nearly as much for the platform as Valve is.
I haven't visited Polygon since they laid off their Features crew.. but even then I'm struggling to remember a single example of clickbait from the site.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Do you know where the "PC master race" meme comes from? That was years of bent of anger and hostility from years from prior to Steam, when the default response was that PC gaming was dead and there wasn't any games.
I don't know what PC gaming would have looked like today without Steam, but it seems completely unfair to say or claim that Steam has not been incredible for PC gaming. There is no facet of entertainment where you can get the value, quality and entertainment per dollar as you can on Steam.
It was Valve who expanded Steam from a little hated mandatory spyware/malware (as people called it in 2003) into what it is. Think about the feature sets, the intiatives and the platforms and tools they made and released for free to allow thousands of people to help get a career in the industry or get their indie game of the ground to success.
Valve has given a lot of services away for free, and while it's true- Like it's true with Youtube, Google, Facebook and others, that they have their own motives and ways of making money of free services and products, the reality is that a tit-for-tat deal is not in itself evil.
I don't know what PC gaming would have looked like today without Steam, but it seems completely unfair to say or claim that Steam has not been incredible for PC gaming. There is no facet of entertainment where you can get the value, quality and entertainment per dollar as you can on Steam.
It was Valve who expanded Steam from a little hated mandatory spyware/malware (as people called it in 2003) into what it is. Think about the feature sets, the intiatives and the platforms and tools they made and released for free to allow thousands of people to help get a career in the industry or get their indie game of the ground to success.
Valve has given a lot of services away for free, and while it's true- Like it's true with Youtube, Google, Facebook and others, that they have their own motives and ways of making money of free services and products, the reality is that a tit-for-tat deal is not in itself evil.
Feature for feature, Steam has no credible competition in any market.
Maybe that could be part of why it's so successful, I don't know.
TheVoidDragon
Member
He also claims Steam is "surveillance and control software"...maybe i just missed it, but where is the evidence for that claim?
Considering it seems he didn't actually do any proper research for certain parts beyond putting in whatever "Valve is bad!" nonsense he could find without analyzing it first, i don't really see much of this as valid, other than perhaps the Workshop part. The refund part is especially bad as it's an outright false claim he makes unless i've got something wrong, if you actually read what he uses as a source it shows his claims are entirely wrong. I've had a look into what he said a bit and unless i'm the one that's misunderstood something, he accuses Valve of breaking the law when what he claims was illegal and them acting scummy (Not giving refunds at first, then telling people they can't refund after a purchase) was them outright complying with the law exactly and the source he uses as 'evidence' (the EU law) that they did something illegal says the exact opposite of his claims...so it seems he didn't actually bother with simple journalistic integrity and check his claims first before saying Valve were breaking the law. How can anyone take this seriously as a whole after that?
I'm talking about this part here, i've not seen anyone else actually mention it:
I don't know much about the subject, but is that Slander/Libel? - Making a false claim about Valve doing something illegal (when what they're doing is exactly what the law says) in order to try to make them look bad?
Sad Affleck
Member
Nah, that can't possibly be it. It's because people worship Gaben and don't love awesome good-natured competitors like EA and Tencent.
Valve doesn't have to be a saint because they are an incredibly successfull business company.
There are few aspects where they might be more customer friendly and few aspects where they might lower their cuts in favour of the content creators. But in general they are doing fine / okayish which is good enough for me.
There are few aspects where they might be more customer friendly and few aspects where they might lower their cuts in favour of the content creators. But in general they are doing fine / okayish which is good enough for me.
oneils
Member
So if I sell someone else's creation on the market, the creator gets a cut? Why are some claiming they are still waiting?
Written like the author, at some point in the past, actually thought that a corporation might be his/her friend. Bizarre.
It's like they've finally realized how stupid that notion was but instead of reflecting on their own naivety they've assumed everyone else in the world is as blinkered as they are and have written an exposé article about it. This is the equivalent of one of those buzfeed 'how to' videos where someone clearly just figured out how to do a simple everyday task but they think it's revelatory.
To cut a long rant short: No the corporations are not your friend. None of them are. They are in the business of making money, and to do that they generally have to appear appealing. Whoever can best tread the line between 'consumer friendly' and 'profitable' wins.
Valve have recently strayed onto the wrong side of that line in some respects, but their product is still very appealing to the vast majority of consumers because it's easy to use and better than the competition.
It's like they've finally realized how stupid that notion was but instead of reflecting on their own naivety they've assumed everyone else in the world is as blinkered as they are and have written an exposé article about it. This is the equivalent of one of those buzfeed 'how to' videos where someone clearly just figured out how to do a simple everyday task but they think it's revelatory.
To cut a long rant short: No the corporations are not your friend. None of them are. They are in the business of making money, and to do that they generally have to appear appealing. Whoever can best tread the line between 'consumer friendly' and 'profitable' wins.
Valve have recently strayed onto the wrong side of that line in some respects, but their product is still very appealing to the vast majority of consumers because it's easy to use and better than the competition.
They weren't doing what the law says, so no it's not slander. Their refund policy, as it stood at the time was not compliant with EU law.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2587...d_software_licenses_is_legal_even_online.html
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015...ant-get-refunds-on-your-steam-game-purchases/
BudokaiMR2
Member
Gotta love the comments claiming that anyone arguing against this vapid article are cheapskate shills who only defend Valve because of the sales.
Yup, that's gotta be it.
No way that someone with experience in PC game publishing could come to the conclusion that Steam is the exact opposite of unhealthy when it comes to PC gaming, and is basically the lifeblood of a lot of companies and independent devs.
Yup, that's gotta be it.
No way that someone with experience in PC game publishing could come to the conclusion that Steam is the exact opposite of unhealthy when it comes to PC gaming, and is basically the lifeblood of a lot of companies and independent devs.
Candescence
Member
Yeah, pretty much this. There simply isn't any platform that can remotely compare to Steam in terms of feature-set. The incredibly in-depth universal controller configuration feature, for example, is something the console makers really should poach, because it is incredible, and would take a lot of work out of the hands of devs.
TheVoidDragon
Member
Being told you were waiving your right to refund was what the law said you had to be told for digital goods if they were to be provided before the 14 day return period. That isn't Valve trying to get around EU law with their EULA to make you lose the ability to refund, that's Valve updating their EULA to follow EU law and do what it says for digital goods - it says you lose the right to return the item once it's provided, and you have to be told that if it's before the 14 days.
Reading those two articles you included, they don't seem to support what you're saying. The one that does talk about Valve's refunds even confirms what i said, that them doing so was compliant with EU law.
That first article is about licenses being traded; not refunds. That's to do with getting a license and then not being able to use them all because you have more uses than needed but it's illegal to trade them yourself, for example.
The second article you quote is from 2015, and says the following:
Because in 2014 there was an amendment to EU law (the one this polygon article links to after claiming Valve is doing something illegal) that says with digital goods, you're allowed to return an unused digital item within 14 days, and that they have to outright tell you that you won't be able to return it if you're being provided with that item before the 14 day return period is up. This is part of what the law he links to says for the sale of digital goods:
So because you had a game activated immediately upon purchase, you immediately lost the right to return it as it was then used by being linked to your account. Because of that you had to be told if that was going to happen, which is what Valve was doing...which he claims was illegal.
The Steam Post he quotes claiming it's illegal was also from 2015, which is after that law as well. So i see nothing at all that suggests he's right. Valve telling people they couldn't refund it was exactly what the EU law said they had to tell us for digital goods, and before that the "right to return" only applied to physical, unused goods or services that hadn't been provided/the contract ended.
I explained it some more a few pages ago: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=237047844&postcount=405
Because a fan funded private tournament doesn't need to pay 75% of their fees to valve? Imagine Nintendo was going to throw a cash prize Smash tournament based on donations. But then told you 75% of every dollar donated just goes into Nintendo's bank account for the privledge of Nintendo offering a cash prize that they aren't putting anything into. You can get away with that if it was for charity of course, but that's not the case here. Who milks their consumers donation dollars like that for an event created by and essentially ran by the community?
It's like hey here's a good idea - we're going to throw a Dota 2 tournament with a cash prize determined by the donation dollars from our fans (which is weird to see happen from a multi billion dollar company. Even EA just straight up fronts the cash for their Madden tournaments and doesn't make their fanbase donate to create a prize pool), but we're going to pocket most of the donations and act like we're the good guys for offering a prize for a tournament.
Seriously, what other tournament "supported and ran by" a billion dollar company not only makes the entire community pay for it to exist, but then pockets most of that. People are paying valve for the privledge of
Having a prize pool they provide. At least when folks pay entrance fees into big videogame tournaments, usually 80% or more of that fee actually goes back into the tournament prize pool - with company hosted or sponsored tournaments often being free... with real cash prizes that the consumer base didn't donate to create.
Basically, Vavle is doing something no one else is doing. People are just wittingly giving valve money for the privledge of have a cash prize exist. This isn't some struggling company raising capital to survive like a gofundme or Patreon. It's a billion dollar company making consumers pay for the privledge of having a small percentage go towards a tournament. Seriously.
Nobody does this when they are a company as lucrative as valve. The backlash from the community would be astronomical. Except for valve. Most
Don't say a word and continue to just give valve money for no benefit. Your really just donating to valve masked as something more.
Abilidebob
Member
Serious question, do you have any idea what the Compendium/Battle Pass is? Do you know how The International works? I have some time, I'll wait for you to Google it.
0% of the compendium revenue could go to prize money and it would still sell as well as it does. It provides plenty of value on it's own. That's why people buy it.
It's not a donation (lol @people donating that kind of money for a tournament).
That's before we go into the work Valve has put in to support of grassroot tournaments. Something which the big players in esports seem more an more alergic to (FGC aside).
Edit: and none of the majors and the international are fan run. Valve runs those.
If not Steam then who? MS? My experience with their deplorable game store makes me much prefer the devil I know.
My only real problem with Steam is the horrible return policy. I've played STFU 2 for less than two hours and could never get it to run properly on my 6600k and 1070 but Valve denied my refund request because too much time had passed since my purchase. I purchase a lot of games during Steam sales and often won't even download one until months later. If a game they sold me doesn't work and it's not because my hardware is too weak and I've clearly played less than 2 hrs, they should refund me.
My only real problem with Steam is the horrible return policy. I've played STFU 2 for less than two hours and could never get it to run properly on my 6600k and 1070 but Valve denied my refund request because too much time had passed since my purchase. I purchase a lot of games during Steam sales and often won't even download one until months later. If a game they sold me doesn't work and it's not because my hardware is too weak and I've clearly played less than 2 hrs, they should refund me.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Why is Polygon SOOO bad at writing articles like this?
Lister
Banned
You have no idea how any of this works, do you?
Lister
Banned
I agree.
calavera_jo
Neo Member
I think one of the main reasons why Valve got so big and now have a quasi monopoly is probably because its competition is so clueless. Origin and Uplay lag way behind on most of its features.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
My biggest issue is how they can completely take away your digital library of games.
This happened to me before.
I made the mistake of buying an Alice Madness Returns (AMR) steam key off of ebay back in 2011 and it turns out that key was bought with a stolen credit card and Steam completely shut off the use of my entire library. It took about a week of exchanges with support to get my library turned back on. I was given a warning.
I accept that I was careless in how I purchased the steam key, but they should have just removed the license for AMR and been done with it. That has really soured me on Steam.
Supposedly now they are better and just take away the game in question.
Nevertheless, it was concerning to me that I could have all my digital library taken from me in a whiff.
Because of that my relationship with Steam will remain at arms link.
This happened to me before.
I made the mistake of buying an Alice Madness Returns (AMR) steam key off of ebay back in 2011 and it turns out that key was bought with a stolen credit card and Steam completely shut off the use of my entire library. It took about a week of exchanges with support to get my library turned back on. I was given a warning.
I accept that I was careless in how I purchased the steam key, but they should have just removed the license for AMR and been done with it. That has really soured me on Steam.
Supposedly now they are better and just take away the game in question.
Nevertheless, it was concerning to me that I could have all my digital library taken from me in a whiff.
Because of that my relationship with Steam will remain at arms link.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Origin is actually superior to Steam in many ways.
Origin did cloud gaming first actually.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Wait what? Have you seen these tournaments?
They aren't 'ran' by the fans, Valve runs the entire production
Foxtastical
Member
Buying PC games in the early- to mid-2000s was just the best thing ever. I wish we could go back to that time!
Didn't origin have a rep for also having some supposed surveillance software when it was first released? I recall everyone slamming origin and saying not to install it unless you want them looking at your shit, or something.
EA isn't exactly a saint in this race, origin's... Origins were kind of scummy as well. Maybe it's improved know, but when it first came out, there were multiple valid arguments against it.
EA isn't exactly a saint in this race, origin's... Origins were kind of scummy as well. Maybe it's improved know, but when it first came out, there were multiple valid arguments against it.
Foxtastical
Member
You can write an article like this without the weird ass adversarial angle that it takes on. I don't get it.
Pureauthor
Member
You have no idea how the International Compendiums work, do you?
Raylan Targaryen
Member
does this dude really think a bunch of redditors are running the international or something? lol
ea fronts the cash because no one gives a shit about competitive madden. it gets less viewers than competitive gears 4. they'd crowdfund maybe $20 at best if they tried
ea fronts the cash because no one gives a shit about competitive madden. it gets less viewers than competitive gears 4. they'd crowdfund maybe $20 at best if they tried
rakkadakka
Member
The strongest argument is the recent cut to content creators and the recent CSGO gambling issues. But both of those are related to Valve as a company than Steam as a platform.
Comparing them to a company like Uber though is really stretching. Everytime Uber is in the news it's just about one more assholish thing they are doing on purpose. Re: test their self driving cars without permission from CA.
Whenever Valve screws it up it's usually because they internet hasn't point it out to them yet. With the exception of the creator cut because that seems entirely unnecessary for a company as successful as Valve.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
I don't think it's that dramatic. I do believe the whole line about "WE DO ALL OF VALVE'S MARKETING FOR THEIR SALE EVENTS AND OUR REWARD IS THAT VALVE TAKES OUR MONEY" is a bit silly because it's ignoring half of that entire transaction, but, like
Everything else? About how they begrudgingly gave in to refunds? About how toxic their work environment apparently actually is? About how aggressive they are about financial information (including, apparently, withholding money they promised to people who provide Valve themselves with a source of income)?
Like, great, you got Shadow of Mordor for $5, but pretending like that makes everything Valve's doing peachy-keen just because it doesn't directly, immediately effect you is pretty short sighted.
Valve is willingly and knowingly doing deceptive things on fairly large scales. One way or the other, it's going to end poorly for a lot of people -- either for them, or for us. All bubbles burst eventually, and there's always collateral damage. Plugging your ears and shutting your eyes isn't going to make it go away.
Valve made PC gaming viable again. Piracy is much less rempant among avid gamers thanks to their sale concept.
I remember the time before Steam came along, PC was pronounced dead by most publishers and it was a lot less vibrant than today.
And, yes, the workshop situation is shitty and I hope no artist work with them ever again.
I remember the time before Steam came along, PC was pronounced dead by most publishers and it was a lot less vibrant than today.
And, yes, the workshop situation is shitty and I hope no artist work with them ever again.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
I think there was a point where this so-called "Good Guy Valve" (as the article calls it) did in fact exist, and Valve has done a lot of good in a lot of good ways
But absolute power also corrupts absolutely. 2017 Valve is not 2005 Valve.
Absolutely fantastic article. I've been thinking of uninstalling steam for a while now after reading up on it's practices over the years. This article has cemented that decision. As a strong supporter of consumer and workers rights when a mega corporation is so blatantly saying fuck yourself it would be pretty sad not to. Sure I'll lose a load of games but fuck it. Other things are more Important.
prag16
Banned
I think that's the point here. Somebody said "Valve isn't adding anything" at this point, and this stance was shouted down.
Nobody said they NEVER added anything. They've added a TON. But how about right now? Agreed; 2017 Valve is not 2005 Valve.
TheRedSnifit
Member
2005 Valve did not offer Steam refunds. 2005 Valve was structured the same way. 2005 Valve did pretty much everything you accuse modern Valve of doing.
So where does Good Guy Valve end and Modern Valve begin?
In your entire nonsensical rant, you don't realize that Valve puts up an initial prize pool and the majors are completely funded by Valve with no community prize pool.
OR
The fact that people buy into the battle pass for all the cosmetics and featuers Valve adds to the Battle Pass. And increasing the prize pool is secondary. Or else the battle pass for the majors would not be the successes they are.
And guess what? Other companies are doing similar things now with crowd funding for tournaments. Even riot, who famously criticized Valve for crowd funding.
It's amazing how you can have a multi paragraph rant about something you know nothing about.
Better throw your ps4 in the bin too.
Hey while your're be pro worker rights, toss basically any electronics made in the last 10 years.
The problem has always been being so naive to think about "Good Guy Valve". There is no sympathetic capitalism, there is no "good guy Valve", there is no "good guy GOG" and there is no "good guy anything that involves a company, public or private".
A company looks for himself, their objectives and interests. As a user, I look for myself and as Steam is convenient enough, I'll keep using it, monopoly or not.
A company looks for himself, their objectives and interests. As a user, I look for myself and as Steam is convenient enough, I'll keep using it, monopoly or not.
Please throw out your consoles, your phone, your PC, and your clothes as well since those are all made under exploitative conditions or have components that are mined or produced under exploitative conditions.
Your gesture is meaningless and is only for your own ego.
What does 2017 valve do different than 2005 valve?
and what ecosystem is adding more than steam does?
Somehow none of the competitors, many of which are way bigger and richer companies than valve (Microsoft, Blizzard, EA ect.) seem to match what steam is doing. Neither do the consoles. I don't understand why the article writer seems to resent people supporting the most open and feature rich platform. A platfrom which is also by far the most popular choice for the small devs he seems to care about.
There's things to critisze about steam and valve, but i like to keep the context of what's going on in the entire industry.