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JP
Member
(12-03-2017, 04:32 PM)
JP's Avatar
I've said it quite a few times on here and I'm sure I'll keep saying it, the quality of the work done on this by Microsoft is incredible.

I'm not going to post too many details as I'd rather people watched the video but it's something that they've been building on for many years now and they have over 100 people working on backwards compatibility.

Another thing that I keep saying is that I've actually been far more impressed with the way they've enhanced these games on the X than I have been with the X enhancements on normal Xbox One games.

How Does Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility on Xbox One Actually Work?

EDIT:
The Eurogamer article isn't up yet but I'll link to it when it goes live.
Bickle2
Member
(12-03-2017, 06:00 PM)
What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”
ReBurn
Member
(12-03-2017, 06:23 PM)
ReBurn's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bickle2

What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”

I think the difference between you saying it and DF saying it is that DF has the original source that confirms how it actually works and you don't.

Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.
Memorabilia
Member
(12-03-2017, 06:29 PM)
Great thread. Thanks!
pixelbox
(12-03-2017, 06:35 PM)
pixelbox's Avatar
But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.
ReBurn
Member
(12-03-2017, 06:40 PM)
ReBurn's Avatar

Originally Posted by pixelbox

But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.

It might complicate licensing around a commercial release of the emulator because Nvidia may want to be paid royalties. And that's probably inhibiting them from spending R&D resources on it. Since we already know that emulation of PS 1, 2 and 3 is possible on x64 it's probably safe to assume that one of the hang ups is licensing and royalties.
Breakage
Member
(12-03-2017, 06:54 PM)
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This something I've always wanted to know. Thanks for the link.
rokkerkory
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:01 PM)
rokkerkory's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bickle2

What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”

Man you sure showed everyone!
Gitaroo
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:09 PM)
I thought sony created the ps api to avoid what ms has to deal with nvidia when they were trying to get og xbox bc running on 360. Basically every hardware from ps3 on have to be fully compatible with ps shaders no matter the brand of gpu. So in the future they can go with hardware of any brand and carry some of their work forward. For ps5 they can even go with intel nvidia if they wanted to can have backward compatibility with ps4. Obviously ps3 was an odd one due to cpu.
Sosokrates
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:10 PM)
Sosokrates's Avatar
The back compat is a great feature,many 360 games hold up very well. Especially when they are upgraded to 4k.
unknownphysicz
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:14 PM)
i would love Microsoft to do halo reach enhanced that game would look amazing D: in 4k with hdr
Wonko_C
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:32 PM)
Wonko_C's Avatar
So they actually go through the games' code? I have no game dev knowledge but does this basically mean they're porting all BC games to the XBO?
Koala Driving a Ferrari
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:39 PM)
Koala Driving a Ferrari's Avatar
Fantastic article from DF. The technical solution employed is something that I've been interested in since it was announced.

I'm glad that Richard also asked why the X enhanced titles aren't also enhanced on the standard Xbox One (in a more limited form). It's something that I've been pondering. Hopefully that's not something that gets left on the drawing board.

Either way, the achievements of the engineers at MS really should be applauded by the gaming community. It's such a fantastic feature. It keeps me turning my Xbox One more than any other system in my giant collection of game consoles at the moment.

Originally Posted by pixelbox

But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.

The OG Xbox has an Nvidia GPU FYI (I believe it was an improved version of the GeForce 3).
Bickle2
Member
(12-03-2017, 07:57 PM)

Originally Posted by ReBurn

I think the difference between you saying it and DF saying it is that DF has the original source that confirms how it actually works and you don't.

Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.

No, the difference is that people won’t be fired and sued. It doesn’t change the fact I was right, nor does it change the fact that the people denying it though you could emulate the 360 on an Xbox when a $5000 PC can’t do it.

Anyone who knows about how computers work can figure this out. The only real secret is their algorithms and specific methods of achieving it, not the methodology or requirements to do so.
Laserdisk
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:11 PM)
Does the 360 HDR kick in on the S as well as the X
TGO
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:13 PM)
TGO's Avatar
I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.
3rdman
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:15 PM)
Saw this video this morning...motivated me to load up Crimson Skies. Wow...still plays wonderfully and no shimmering. Looks fantastic...I'm really impressed with the X so far.
solis74
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:23 PM)

Originally Posted by JP

I've said it quite a few times on here and I'm sure I'll keep saying it, the quality of the work done on this by Microsoft is incredible.

I'm not going to post too many details as I'd rather people watched the video but it's something that they've been building on for many years now and they have over 100 people working on backwards compatibility.

Another thing that I keep saying is that I've actually been far more impressed with the way they've enhanced these games on the X than I have been with the X enhancements on normal Xbox One games.

How Does Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility on Xbox One Actually Work?

EDIT:
The Eurogamer article isn't up yet but I'll link to it when it goes live.

pure MS Awesomeness!
Horsemama1956
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:31 PM)
Horsemama1956's Avatar
Emulation? Who would have thought..
Gitaroo
Member
(12-03-2017, 09:33 PM)

Originally Posted by Laserdisk

Does the 360 HDR kick in on the S as well as the X

Yes, halo 3 display hdr on my s.
pixelbox
(12-03-2017, 09:41 PM)
pixelbox's Avatar

Originally Posted by Koala Driving a Ferrari

Fantastic article from DF. The technical solution employed is something that I've been interested in since it was announced.

I'm glad that Richard also asked why the X enhanced titles aren't also enhanced on the standard Xbox One (in a more limited form). It's something that I've been pondering. Hopefully that's not something that gets left on the drawing board.

Either way, the achievements of the engineers at MS really should be applauded by the gaming community. It's such a fantastic feature. It keeps me turning my Xbox One more than any other system in my giant collection of game consoles at the moment.



The OG Xbox has an Nvidia GPU FYI (I believe it was an improved version of the GeForce 3).

Nvidia is worth more now than then. Maybe it's a money issue.
RootCause
Member
(12-03-2017, 10:06 PM)
RootCause's Avatar
They've done a fantastic job. But they need to get more games on it. Hoping they have a Christmas Day surprise.

Originally Posted by TGO

I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.

I wish. But didn't they have a ps1 released not long ago for one of these events, and it turned out to be nothing?
FZW
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wonko_C

So they actually go through the games' code? I have no game dev knowledge but does this basically mean they're porting all BC games to the XBO?

No they change everything from the emulator not from the games code
WaterAstro
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:14 PM)
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Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
TheAdmiester
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:46 PM)

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

Sony would rather put their virtualisation and operating system development staff into making new games? Sounds kinda misguided to me.
Xaero Gravity
Member
(12-03-2017, 11:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

You'll be ok, just don't dwell on system wars too much.
baconcow
Member
(12-04-2017, 12:13 AM)

Originally Posted by pixelbox

But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.

The Xbox has a Microsoft and nVidia co-developed system chipset and GPU.
Calibos
Member
(12-04-2017, 12:24 AM)
Calibos's Avatar
I always enjoy these dives into the BC program...It really is amazing that they have 3 generations of systems created at different times with different architectures all running in one place.

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

Jesus Christ....
The_Mike
Member
(12-04-2017, 12:27 AM)

Originally Posted by TGO

I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.

Well, did it boost the sale for Xbox? Probably not, and that’s enough reason for Sony not to care.

I am a big fan of it myself, but the majority of PS players don’t really care about BC, they want new games. That’s what they usually say when discussing the topic.

Just look at this fellow, the typical PS 4 player:

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

mad597
Banned
(12-04-2017, 01:05 AM)

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

The 100 people working on the emulator aren't game devs you dumbass.

Sony fans so fucking stupid they rather pay two or three times for the same damn game to save sony the inconvenience of deploying a real BC program. You guys just like to get abused.
jpadula
Junior Member
(12-04-2017, 01:09 AM)
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Every senior programmer knew how it works day1, so..
Nitpicker_Red
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by ReBurn

Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.

Isn't that the whole idea behind Wine? Which is an acronym for « Wine Is Not an Emulator »?
Edit: The whole "not simulating the OS like a VM would (or in our case, simulating the hardware like an emulator would) - instead, add a compatibility layer to translate when possible" thing. But I'm not sure it's actually the case here because they still say "emulation" in the video. Someone help?
Of course, based on the video they also built the hardware taking in account backwards compatibility, so there's that to take in account too...
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
(12-04-2017, 03:16 AM)
Freshmaker's Avatar

Originally Posted by The_Mike

Well, did it boost the sale for Xbox? Probably not, and that’s enough reason for Sony not to care.

That's why I bought an Xbox One X.

Not the BC of course because that'd be mad. The Sony apathy.
Bickle2
Member
(12-04-2017, 06:00 AM)

Originally Posted by The_Mike

Well, did it boost the sale for Xbox? Probably not, and that’s enough reason for Sony not to care.

I am a big fan of it myself, but the majority of PS players don’t really care about BC, they want new games. That’s what they usually say when discussing the topic.

Just look at this fellow, the typical PS 4 player:

That’s the usual “I do t care until I have it, then it’s the greatest thing EVER” words.

BC has been a huge success, not only moving systems but moving games. The price of 360 games has actually increase by a significant amount. Many big titles have more than doubled the minimum sale prices.

Most of Those 100 people likely aren’t people who’d be making many games anyway, they’re not creatives, they’re engineers working on the OS and the translator, not making games.
Metalingus5150
Banned
(12-04-2017, 06:02 AM)

Originally Posted by Freshmaker

That's why I bought an Xbox One X.

Not the BC of course because that'd be mad. The Sony apathy.

The Sony Apathy? lol
That's mad.
Must be so apathetic with all the great games they're putting out lol
The_Mike
Member
(12-04-2017, 06:21 AM)

Originally Posted by Metalingus5150

The Sony Apathy? lol
That's mad.
Must be so apathetic with all the great games they're putting out lol

If you aren’t into Asian games or filmic single player experiences the amount of interesting Sony exclusives are literally none existent.
Metalingus5150
Banned
(12-04-2017, 06:42 AM)

Originally Posted by The_Mike

If you aren’t into Asian games or filmic single player experiences the amount of interesting Sony exclusives are literally none existent.

Well with Sony winning this generation, I'm sure the amount of people into asian games or filmic single player games is big.
nush
Member
(12-04-2017, 09:15 AM)
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It's amazing what the back compat team have achieved.
The_Mike
Member
(12-04-2017, 09:20 AM)

Originally Posted by Metalingus5150

Well with Sony winning this generation, I'm sure the amount of people into asian games or filmic single player games is big.

Or, maybe Sony’s aggressive marketing and players word of mouth works better? We don’t know for sure which effects works best.

PS4 players outnumbers XO players three to one, yet it’s still multi plats that leads the charts.

Sony did already lead this generation before exclusives began to come, and then graphics mattered. Sony won for being all about games while Xbox was also about tv.
cireza
Member
(12-04-2017, 09:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

Let's have 100 people porting a PS3 game, instead of having them working on the entire PS3 library.

Genius.
Kai Ozu
Member
(12-04-2017, 09:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by unknownphysicz

i would love Microsoft to do halo reach enhanced that game would look amazing D: in 4k with hdr

They should just do a 60fps 4K version of it on the MCC update next year.
Lort
Member
(12-04-2017, 09:37 AM)
This thread is about xboxs awesome ability to play 360 and original xbox games.

Great technology!!
FutureLarking
Member
(12-04-2017, 10:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Bickle2

What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”

The strange thing is most of these details were actually known since BC started coming out (and I've mentioned it a few times in my post history) - straight from Microsoft no less.
deadscreensky
Banned
(12-04-2017, 12:24 PM)
I didn't know about the custom LODs, that's genuinely cool.
Lort
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:33 PM)
Ms said almost all of this previously, as for this “find and replace” and “traffic cop” description., why dont you take your stunningly acurate archtitecure knowledge over to develop the open source 360 emulator for pc. Im sure theyd love to hear about your insights.
phil_t98
Member
(12-04-2017, 01:56 PM)

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

they ae programers not game developers, they aint writing game code they are writing an emulator that emulates the 360. no idea why you are commending sony in this instance as they should be making the games you already own work on the system you own not having to repay to play them again
Journey
Member
(12-04-2017, 02:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.

Originally Posted by phil_t98

they ae programers not game developers, they aint writing game code they are writing an emulator that emulates the 360. no idea why you are commending sony in this instance as they should be making the games you already own work on the system you own not having to repay to play them again



Phil is not a warrior... See the difference?
3rdman
Member
(12-04-2017, 03:45 PM)

Originally Posted by WaterAstro

Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather port those games and charge you for stuff you already own. That's the difference.

Fixed. :P

Seriously though, it's a nice bonus and (I can only speak for myself) it's what made me finally jump back in after tuning out this gen.
Adam_802
Member
(12-04-2017, 05:44 PM)
MS really has something awesome with BC, funny how the Cell Architecture of ps3 is still biting sony in the ass 11 years later
jonscrambler
Member
(12-04-2017, 06:20 PM)
jonscrambler's Avatar
it's software wizardry

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