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What's the future of the RTS genre?

Multiplayer Total war is definitely my favorite and growing RTS.

Taking the base building out of RTS games makes it more enjoyable to watch and more accessible for new players.
 

Jrs3000

Member
Multiplayer Total war is definitely my favorite and growing RTS.

Taking the base building out of RTS games makes it more enjoyable to watch
and more accessible for new players.

I totally disagree with that. Base building is one of the great things about it and is a key part of the strategy. You can leave it and still have it accessible to new players. There's room for both types.
 

Aangster

Member
For me, the hooks of RTS have usually been base building + turtling that builds to climactic all-out wars with friends or the AI, and historical settings. I don't mind hectic attempts to shift around points using the mini-map while fending off multiple attacks, but I find that heavy micromanagement (e.g. unit abilities) and design trends like e-sports emphasis (e.g. stream/spectate features, balance towards pro play etc.) run counter to the experience of most casual players.

Age of Empires really filled this space, especially with AoE 1 being my first foray into video games. It's such a shame to see the lack of historical RTSs; indie works like 0.A.D can only go so far. I'm hoping new works on bigger budget titles can bring back interest in the genre apart from WWII/modern warfare titles. Plus, much needed improvements to pathfinding design please.

AoE II + new expansions on Steam have been solid, but fuck that awful attempt at an AoM expansion. I don't trust Microsoft to deliver a satisfying sequel on this front. Can't forget the AoE Online bust either. And yes, been happy to hate on Spencer since 2008, they've fucking around with Ensemble's legacy for a while now :mad:

On another front: Given Relic's attempts to solicit forum feedback specifically for the CoH series, I'm sure they're aware of DoW III's failures (shout out to its abomination of a singleplayer campaign). Perhaps they're trying to figure out how they struck gold the first time round? again :(
 

PSqueak

Banned
well, the immidiate future seems to be remasters, AOE2 HD has gotten like 6 expansions, Starcraft Remaster just came out, OG Starcraft is free for everyone, and Blizzard just set up a PTR and balance patch for Warcraft 3, meaning that they're likely gonna do the same as they did with Starcraft.

Hopefully this eventually leeds to ne entries on those franchises and more people making 90's styled RTS games.
 
I really like RTS but only for the single player campaing, because i can take my time building a good base, creating a army at my leisure, etc. my favorites series were always C&C, Warcraft and Starcraft because their single player were fun with a good story.

So yeah i understand these people that think that competitive RTS are too hardcore, in this case MOBAs are way more simpler and fun, a pity that the community in these is usually trash.

For the future i can only hope for at very least a remaster of WC3, outside of this i have no ideia of any new RTS being developed.

Whether reality or just perception the RTS genre lost the appeal to casual players for being too hardcore. It's a sad thing to see but people won't even try RTSs now, and even doing one multiplayer match is out of the question.

MOBAs being team based is a huge reason why they grabbed the large casual RTS base since you can just lose yourself in a team and not have to worry about all the pressure that comes with RTS multiplayer. Even RTS team modes would have people stressing. Only managing one hero compared to micro/macro is huge as well.

Even Blizzard with its amazing matchmaking for SC2 saw lots of people drop it for being too high pressure and 'ladder anxiety'. The sad fact is when it's 1v1, people still really don't like losing even if its perfectly 50% of the time.

If Blizzard really makes another try with WC4 I expect the multiplayer to be hugely focused around coop instead of competitive. I remember them being surprised with the popularity of the Coop modes in SC2 LotV, and they ended up investing way more effort into it after seeing that. Now there is weekly mutations and more DLC commanders to purchase for it. It wasn't that surprising to me because it allowed people to play RTS online without all the pressure that came from a competitive mode, it was like a success story waiting to happen.

All great points.

It does not help that virtually all the RTS studios have been purchased or died. Remember Westwood Studios? Purchased by EA. C&C3 and RA3 were excellent, but then there was C&C4.

WoW more or less killed any potential for WC4. I can see WC3 remastered though.

I pray that Homeworld: Deserts of Kahrak did well. HW is my favorite franchise.

AoE2HD has some new add-ons, but the engine is still dated.

Act of Aggression, Grey Goo, The Hive have tried but miss the mark that C&C, WC, HE, and AoE set in terms of balance and lore.


Quite frankly, I do not think that there are many developers who are smart enough to properly balance an RTS.

MOBAs are where the money is.
 

Bolivar687

Banned
I don't buy that MOBAs are friendlier to noobs, they're incredibly long and painful games to learn. Nor do I think players no longer have a stomach for competition, eSports is huge and we always tried to learn and get better at RTS back in the day.

I think it's a series of bad market factors prohibiting anyone from doubling down on the genre. People releasing bad games and assuming the reaction means the market isn't interested. AA developers miss on the social marketing or don't get enough support from the publisher. There's also the pricing problem, where PC gamers no longer justify buying strategy games for more than $15. I think the companies who could make a bigger splash in this and make wrong assumptions about the audience as a result of other factors.

It's a chicken or the egg situation and all that will solve it is for EA to really invest in a new Command & Conquer. Even if WC4 released and smashed records next Fall, I don't think it would be enough, as developers probably gave up trying to emulate Blizzard a long time ago.
 

Gxgear

Member
I think the Warcraft III style is the way to go (more about managing meaningful units, rather than worrying about build timings or macroing massive armies). Dawn of War 3 seemed to be on the right track, despite the game's criticism for changing too much of the franchise's core mechanics.
 

Ruddles72

Member
I love RTS but in today's online hyper aggressive environment, I think it's dead. Here are some excellent thoughts that I always link when this topic comes up from Greg Street (ex-Blizz, aka Ghostcrawler).

"It used to be more possible to compete in an RTS as a strategic player who made smart decisions and not just a twitch player with good reflexes. To be pro, you need to be good at both, but it's hard to even have much fun these days if you're bad at micro.
[...]
I think over time the games just lived out their lifespan. There was such a leap in complexity of everything -- strategies, unit design, counter units, systems -- that it was difficult for anyone but pretty hardcore players to keep up. Yet, if they hadn't keep adding those systems, the engaged players might have gotten bored. I keep hoping that it feels like it's time for RTS as a genre to come back. Not yet."​

More here, only place I could find it sorry: https://ask.fm/RiotGhostcrawler/answers/134859308427
 

Kill3r7

Member
i'm really disappointed this genre is all but dead on console, Tom Clancys Endwar was quality, and back in the ps1 days c&C was great.

To be fair RTS games have always been niche on consoles. Best selling RTS game of all time on consoles is Halo Wars, enough said.
 

Proelite

Member
Future is team based multiplayer with a big selection of factions to choose from. Less micro, more teamwork.

Get rid of 1v1 altogether.

Basically copy the things from MOBA that made competitive RTS obsolete. Keep the base building, and armies of RTS that makes RTSes great.
 

KDR_11k

Member
I think the Warcraft III style is the way to go (more about managing meaningful units, rather than worrying about build timings or macroing massive armies). Dawn of War 3 seemed to be on the right track, despite the game's criticism for changing too much of the franchise's core mechanics.

That's one of the schisms in the casual RTS audience (the hardcore audience always operates on both levels at full speed), emphasis on using units well vs emphasis on building a big base and economy.

RTSes are by nature unforgiving. The economy is exponential to a certain degree, you spend money to make money and the faster you do it the faster you build up more money and a bigger army. In an FPS you die and you respawn, in an RTS you lose an army and you're out those resources. Some ditch the entire resource system and make it about having a refilling pool of money to invest into units (e.g. World in Conflict) so there's no snowballing but that of course removes the ability to build more units or a satisfying base.
 
I think - and most people here seem to agree - that non-rushed base and army building, then clashing is what the RTS players of old loved about the genre. Can devs not come up with a somewhat radical game design that cuts out the rush of that?

Or maybe even a mode that makes the base building turn-based like chess with only a glimpse of what the other player is building, be done with that part in 5 minutes and then get to the massive army clashing and base definding/rebuilding in real time??! Just a quick idea, I'm sure real game devs can come up with better stuff if they really sit down to address this problem.
 

KDR_11k

Member
Frankly I have no idea how to "remove the rush" from an RTS except by removing the opposing human player and setting up some asymmetrical AI instead. You can set up silly things like "no rush 20 min" but that just means that at minute 21 you have two armies clashing and whoever econ'd faster has the bigger army. It's always hectic and if you're leisurely you're inefficient, whether it takes 20 minutes to see that in the first encounter or 2.

That's the thing that's keeping me away from Battlefleet Gothic. I've heard it's very micro heavy at later stages which i usually struggle at.

There again i've just bought "Command: Modern Air Naval Operations" for £18 which isn't micro-heavy but is very deep. lol, what have i done? Damn you, baloogan! :)

BFG is one of those "field units worth X points" games (no respawning though!), you usually have like 2-5 ships in play because that's all you can fit into your point budget. Also it's pretty slow and has a slowdown function if you still find it too hectic and you can set all abilities to autocast.
 

Violet_0

Banned
I only play RTS for the campaigns and co-op versus AI nowadays. I was never really good in online matches, I can't multi-tasking very well, now even less than when I was a teenager. When it comes to strategy, I vastly prefer turn-based to real-time. Though DoW1 multiplayer was really fun back in the day

I can understand why the genre is pretty much dead at this point. Lots of people probably think like me. If a Warcraft 4 was made, everyone would buy it for the singleplayer and I believe not many people would actually bother getting good at it online. Even in WC3, the popular multiplayer modes were the custom maps
Check out Tooth & Tail - it's doing a lot of interesting things in the genre.
this looks neat, thanks
 

shandy706

Member
Yeah, I feel the same - I am more into the campaign of the RTS where I can take my time and enjoy the game instead of having adrenaline running through my body while maintaining a high APM. So singleplayer RTS is mostly my jam.

I wonder if that's feasible at all these days - Homeworld: DoK had a really nice campaign and Grey Goo wasn't half-bad, but I wonder if it financially makes sense to even put much effort into a RTS, since it seems people are mostly into the genre due to multiplayer

Shame you're skipping out on Halo Wars....that fits perfectly. There are 2 of them on PC you could play. Kind of silly to skip them because "Halo".

I play basically any RTS that I can. I also enjoyed Homeworld and Grey Goo. I even put a ton of time into simple RTSs like 8-Bit Armies and 8-Bit Hordes.

That Tooth & Nail game looks interesting...another thanks to the person that posted it.
 
That's one of the schisms in the casual RTS audience (the hardcore audience always operates on both levels at full speed), emphasis on using units well vs emphasis on building a big base and economy.

RTSes are by nature unforgiving. The economy is exponential to a certain degree, you spend money to make money and the faster you do it the faster you build up more money and a bigger army. In an FPS you die and you respawn, in an RTS you lose an army and you're out those resources. Some ditch the entire resource system and make it about having a refilling pool of money to invest into units (e.g. World in Conflict) so there's no snowballing but that of course removes the ability to build more units or a satisfying base.

Battleforge (EA) have built the best resource system to prevent snowballing.

You had two type buildings: resource and tier. You generate resources from those buildings into the main resource (Power) pool for units/spells/abilities/combat structures. However, used (or dead) things return 80% of their value to the "void". The void is unavailable directly, but depending on how much of power is in your void, it trickles down back to the main resource pool.

The result is that when the players lose their units, they have a boost in the economy. It was a system which didn't place towers to fall back or penalized the winning player directly.

As far as base-building goes, the discussion is deep and it is important to understand what people want from base-building mechanics. You will not find a unified opinion or a compromise, these are different mechanics.

• Do they want a pure economy simulator where the army is just quantities of rock/paper/scissors units?
• Do they want something like Stronghold Crusader where designing and building the actual layout of the town successfully is the most important part of the game?
• Do they want the game which is about combat but has some base building elements like Warcraft 3 or Dawn of War1?
• Do they want a game which is about tactics and combat like Company of Heroes 2?

In all of those examples, you get the choices between expanding resources or army, and whether you want more army now or tier the tech to get better units. This part of RTS games isn't impacted by whether you build a physical base or not.

You (in theory) can have both: deep tactics with complex units and deep economy town building. However, both of those mechanics individually are more complicated than genres of popular online games, so asking the player to master both of those elements in real time is too much even for the existing RTS players.

I totally disagree with that. Base building is one of the great things about it and is a key part of the strategy. You can leave it and still have it accessible to new players. There's room for both types.

Please explain how it is a key part of the strategy.

Total War games are difficult in army compositions, tactics, formations and the real time management of everything (if you are playing online). The inclusion of magic and aerial units in Total War expands the tactics and complexity further.
 

fatty

Member
Damn, a thread from 2017 about the future of RTS' being bumped so that we now in the future can say that RTS did indeed have no future.

I don’t have to have a wealth of options like other genres but as long as good titles trickle in every now and then I will be happy.

I’ve been so busy that I still haven’t sat down and played Legacy of the Void but will soon. I figure that and revisiting older titles I have missed while playing the occasional new release will keep me happy.

If I get Starcraft 3 within the next 10 years I will be happy. Until then I have enough to keep me interested in the genre.
 
They Are Billions was released this year and is one of my favorite RTS now. It has no PVP mode though, which might be a killer for many.

Before that my favorite RTS was Tooth & Tail which was already mentioned.
 
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