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Fitness |OT3| BroScience, Protein Dysentery, XXL Calf Implants, and Squat Rack Hogs

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I

Izick

Member
Ashhong said:
Yea, before SL I worked out for about a year off and on just doing whatever, without a real plan. Machines, some bench, curls, the stuff of noobs. I did all of that bare handed which is where I first experienced the problems. I do see myself in the future getting rid of gloves completely. I will slowly work towards that.

The girlfriend also doesn't like my hands too rough ;)
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What! Rough hands are manly! :p

Yeah, I don't really have anything against gloves, but they really do weaken your grip, so that's why I never really used them. It's good though if you can just slowly wean yourself off them a little at a time. Maybe let your blisters fully heal, then start trying to go all out again with out gloves.
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
Izick said:
My gym has like around 6 (give or take one) flat benches and 4 squat racks. There's always at least 3 flat benches being used at any time. If there's one person on a squat rack, then I'm going to use one of the other 3 to curl, because it's really not going to affect anything. If people use up the other two, then I'm cautious to see if someone near by is waiting or looking at the squat rack I'm at. I've moved in the past, and I'll move again in the future.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, because none of us go to the same gym, and I've explained multiple times why I said what I said. Nobody has ever given me question about it in my gym, and I'm acquaintances with most of the people there, so I think somebody would have been comfortable enough to ask or confront me on it, if it really was a problem.

I'm done arguing over this because it's stupid, dumb bullshit at this point. It's devolved into saying the same things over and over again. I get it, a lot of you think it's an unnecessary luxury to use, I don't. I think it's fine if it's not inconveniencing anyone trying to actually do squats. That's just how it is.
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Just putting my two cents in, didn't mean to rile anything.

We're all bros, brah.
 
M

Mecha_Infantry

Banned
Slurmer said:
I heard recently that having bcaa powder before a workout was useless and to just have whey protein powder instead. Any opinions on this? Any significant difference? I usually have a protein shake right after working out
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BCAA in protein shake aren't the same as the free form ones. It's not a waste of time at all.
 
M

muntersaur

Member
SeigO said:
You should try using a hexagon bar.

For some reason I was struggling to do 225 on DL's because I constantly felt like I was going to drop the bar. But I switched to using a hexagon bar a few months ago and I'm having 0 grip problems at 300+. Now I'm limited by what I can lift rather than by my grip, I'm not sure what the difference is though.
Click to expand...

The trapbar is awesome but make sure you have some hamstring, and maybe spinal erectors strengthening assistance exercises in your programme because the trapbar is much more quad dominant than the traditional deadlift, and places less emphasis on the lower back (which should allow you to lift more weight than a normal deadlift).
 
B

blackflag

Member
Slurmer said:
I heard recently that having bcaa powder before a workout was useless and to just have whey protein powder instead. Any opinions on this? Any significant difference? I usually have a protein shake right after working out
Click to expand...

If you are cutting, BCAA can be helpful. I definitely use it. If you are bulking and trying to gain weight, just eat moar food.

It would be fine to just have protein before you workout. Once digested, that's what it breaks down into anyway. If you want to conserve calories, have BCAA instead and then have a pwo protein shake.
 
N

Neki

Member
How much protein is recommended for a bulk up period again? Starting to get back in rhythm and I have to make sure I start eating right again, lol.
 
V

Veezy

que?
Ultimoo said:
How much protein is recommended for a bulk up period again? Starting to get back in rhythm and I have to make sure I start eating right again, lol.
Click to expand...

However, for those athletes involved in strength events such as the Olympic field and sprint events, those in football or hockey, or weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders, I recommend between 1.2 and 1.6 g of high-quality protein per pound of total body weight. That means that if you weigh 200 lb and want to put on a maximum amount of muscle mass, then you will have to take in as much as 320g of protein daily. There are several competitive weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders that I know who take in 2-3 g of high-quality protein per pound of body weight.


If you are trying to lose weight or body fat it is important to keep your dietary protein levels high. That is because the body oxidizes more protein on a calorie-deficient diet than it would in a diet that has adequate calories. The larger the body muscle mass, the more transamination of amino acids occurs to fulfill energy needs. Thus for those wishing to lose weight but maintain or even increase lean body mass in specific skeletal muscles, I recommend at least 1.5g of high-quality protein per pound of body weight. The reduction in claories needed to lose weight should be at the expense of the fats and carbohydrates, not protein (345).

The 70s big post covers it pretty completely, but 1g per lb of body weight is bare minimum. 1.1 to 1.2 for solid gaines. More than that depending on how much you train.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
Veezy said:
However, for those athletes involved in strength events such as the Olympic field and sprint events, those in football or hockey, or weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders, I recommend between 1.2 and 1.6 g of high-quality protein per pound of total body weight. That means that if you weigh 200 lb and want to put on a maximum amount of muscle mass, then you will have to take in as much as 320g of protein daily. There are several competitive weightlifters, powerlifters, and bodybuilders that I know who take in 2-3 g of high-quality protein per pound of body weight.


If you are trying to lose weight or body fat it is important to keep your dietary protein levels high. That is because the body oxidizes more protein on a calorie-deficient diet than it would in a diet that has adequate calories. The larger the body muscle mass, the more transamination of amino acids occurs to fulfill energy needs. Thus for those wishing to lose weight but maintain or even increase lean body mass in specific skeletal muscles, I recommend at least 1.5g of high-quality protein per pound of body weight. The reduction in claories needed to lose weight should be at the expense of the fats and carbohydrates, not protein (345).

The 70s big post covers it pretty completely, but 1g per lb of body weight is bare minimum. 1.1 to 1.2 for solid gaines. More than that depending on how much you train.
Click to expand...

I have yet to see anything that tells me that much protein is necessary. Neither reasoning explaining why the internal mechanisms of the body would need that much, nor a published study showing it to be the case.
 
B

Bearded Dudebro

Member
I never understood the bulking and cutting phases. Could someone explain it to me? Kind of sounds like during a bulk you eat a slight surplus, work hard, you put on muscle and maybe a little fat? A cut is eating a slight deficit, still working hard, losing fat while retaining the muscle you've gained or losing very little?

How long would you do each? Does it matter what time of year? I read alot of guys doing a Winter bulk, or is that just some random time they've chosen to do it and just calling it that?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Feels good to move up in weight and move up in reps on bodyweight workouts (dips).
 
V

Veezy

que?
Timedog said:
I have yet to see anything that tells me that much protein is necessary. Neither reasoning explaining why the internal mechanisms of the body would need that much, nor a published study showing it to be the case.
Click to expand...

Pro athletes, fitness models, and body builders take in a substantial amount of protein. It is a basic building block of muscle and is necessary in recovering from training.

That being said, how much you or anybody needs cannot be described in a one diet for all sort of package. 1g per lb of body weight of protein as a fairly common suggestion, but it just a foundation. Depending upon how much you train, you should probably consume more than that in order to recuperate and continue to train without causing injury or setting yourself back. As the post I liked suggested, if you find yourself stalling eat more protein and you'll probably fix the issue.

In summation, if you want to pack on muscle mass and not get too fat, it's better to base your diet on a heavy amount of protein while consuming healthy carbs and fat to assist with growth and recovery. You may not need 1.2g per pound, but it can help.
 
I

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Bearded Dudebro said:
I never understood the bulking and cutting phases. Could someone explain it to me? Kind of sounds like during a bulk you eat a slight surplus, work hard, you put on muscle and maybe a little fat? A cut is eating a slight deficit, still working hard, losing fat while retaining the muscle you've gained or losing very little?

How long would you do each? Does it matter what time of year? I read alot of guys doing a Winter bulk, or is that just some random time they've chosen to do it and just calling it that?
Click to expand...

Bulking: Eating everything and anything to force your body to gain mass.

Cutting: Eating a caloric deficit to lose the body fat you gained whilst bulking.

Whenever I bulked/cut it was in 12 week cycles. I prefer doing winter bulks as it's impossible to not eat excessively during the holiday period.
 
V

Veezy

que?
Bearded Dudebro said:
I never understood the bulking and cutting phases. Could someone explain it to me? Kind of sounds like during a bulk you eat a slight surplus, work hard, you put on muscle and maybe a little fat? A cut is eating a slight deficit, still working hard, losing fat while retaining the muscle you've gained or losing very little?

How long would you do each? Does it matter what time of year? I read alot of guys doing a Winter bulk, or is that just some random time they've chosen to do it and just calling it that?
Click to expand...

You got it. It can get complicated to explain, but most human beings can build muscle faster while gaining fat than they can put on muscle while not gaining fat. There's a point in novice training where you can just gain muscle, but for most people that doesn't last forever.

What some people choose to do is gain muscle when they, to be frank, aren't taking off their shirt (abs and all that jazz). So, fall through winter. Then, come spring, they will cut back calories while introducing more endurance training with their work outs, thus losing the fat while keeping the majority of muscle they have built. Then, they hit dat pool and flex for the ladies (or gents).

This isn't the same for everybody, but it's now my brother in law does it when he competes for his body building competitions.
 
jts

jts

...hate me...
Veezy said:
What some people choose to do is gain muscle when they, to be frank, aren't taking off their shirt (abs and all that jazz). So, fall through winter. Then, come spring, they will cut back calories while introducing more endurance training with their work outs, thus losing the fat while keeping the majority of muscle they have built. Then, they hit dat pool and flex for the ladies (or gents).
Click to expand...
And then they have a sexy time?
 
A

Agyar

Member
Veezy said:
Pro athletes, fitness models, and body builders take in a substantial amount of protein. It is a basic building block of muscle and is necessary in recovering from training.

That being said, how much you or anybody needs cannot be described in a one diet for all sort of package. 1g per lb of body weight of protein as a fairly common suggestion, but it just a foundation. Depending upon how much you train, you should probably consume more than that in order to recuperate and continue to train without causing injury or setting yourself back. As the post I liked suggested, if you find yourself stalling eat more protein and you'll probably fix the issue.

In summation, if you want to pack on muscle mass and not get too fat, it's better to base your diet on a heavy amount of protein while consuming healthy carbs and fat to assist with growth and recovery. You may not need 1.2g per pound, but it can help.
Click to expand...

None of this is a link to a study dietary protein requirements.
 
V

Veezy

que?
jts said:
And then they have a sexy time?
Click to expand...

Hell yeah, they do.

On a side note, I've never understood the trend of many internet fitness buffs to be completely against the idea of looking sexy when you train. I get the anti-abocrombie anti-fitness magazine dude hate (considering the fact that most of them either have access to chemicals you don't or the ability to strictly work out 40 hours a week, probably both since their job depends on it), but people should realize that you can look pretty damn sexy still be fucking strong and you don't have to be on a ton of steroids. You just have to be dedicated and smart.

Agyar said:
None of this is a link to a study dietary protein requirements.
Click to expand...

I never it was. It's a post from 70sbig.com and my option from working with clients. You can take it or leave it.

It's a suggestion. You can do what you like. However, when somebody who knows more than I makes a suggestion I find it appropriate to at least consider it an option rather than hand waiving it off.

EDIT: If you want to get really technical, the American Dietetic Association recommends .8g per kilo of body weight per day. This for your average person. You average person doesn't train hard. So, it would make logical sense that if you want to gain weight, you would need to consume an excess amount of protein based calories (obviously, more fat and carbs would be needed as well).

EDIT 2: Additional reading.
 
P

Para bailar La Bomba

Banned
Question guys -- is the non-whey protein component in milk, slow absorbing or fast absorbing protein?

I'm trying to ascertain the effectiveness of plain milk as a pre-workout drink.
 
B

Bearded Dudebro

Member
But obviously you want to do it cleanly right? For example, In the past, I've eaten everything in sight for a week. I was actually 30 lbs heaver after that week. Not as part of a bulk or anything, I was just being an idiot. Course a lot of it was the weight of the food. But I could have maintained eating like that if I wanted. The excess should be in moderation and clean foods right?

industrian said:
Bulking: Eating everything and anything to force your body to gain mass.

Cutting: Eating a caloric deficit to lose the body fat you gained whilst bulking.

Whenever I bulked/cut it was in 12 week cycles. I prefer doing winter bulks as it's impossible to not eat excessively during the holiday period.
Click to expand...


Veezy said:
You got it. It can get complicated to explain, but most human beings can build muscle faster while gaining fat than they can put on muscle while not gaining fat. There's a point in novice training where you can just gain muscle, but for most people that doesn't last forever.

What some people choose to do is gain muscle when they, to be frank, aren't taking off their shirt (abs and all that jazz). So, fall through winter. Then, come spring, they will cut back calories while introducing more endurance training with their work outs, thus losing the fat while keeping the majority of muscle they have built. Then, they hit dat pool and flex for the ladies (or gents).

This isn't the same for everybody, but it's now my brother in law does it when he competes for his body building competitions.
Click to expand...
 
jts

jts

...hate me...
Veezy said:
Hell yeah, they do.

On a side note, I've never understood the trend of many internet fitness buffs to be completely against the idea of looking sexy when you train. I get the anti-abocrombie anti-fitness magazine dude hate (considering the fact that most of them either have access to chemicals you don't or the ability to strictly work out 40 hours a week, probably both since their job depends on it), but people should realize that you can look pretty damn sexy still be fucking strong and you don't have to be on a ton of steroids. You just have to be dedicated and smart.
Click to expand...
Heh, not me buddy. I'm as shallow as it gets. I work out for teh sexy time!

Well, 40% of my motivation is to get stronger/fitter and 60% is to look good.
 
M

Mr.City

Member
But obviously you want to do it cleanly right? For example, In the past, I've eaten everything in sight for a week. I was actually 30 lbs heaver after that week. Not as part of a bulk or anything, I was just being an idiot. Course a lot of it was the weight of the food. But I could have maintained eating like that if I wanted. The excess should be in moderation and clean foods right?
Click to expand...

30lbs? Did you type that right? There's no way you could gain 30 lbs of pure fat/muscle in 7 days alone.
 
K

~Kinggi~

Banned
I've been weight training for probably a year and a half now. I am nowhere near as muscular as I should be. This is cause ive been doing weights while not overeating. I have a lot of protein but i dont horde food. Shit can get expensive too. I used to be very overweight and i have a hardline phobia of gaining back fat. This really annoys the fuck out of me that i am having such slow growth. I dont want to go to the gym anymore, not seeing the point.

I just cant make the step to become the blob and then do a 'cutting' routine after that. There's gotta be a fucking way to get cut and muscular without getting fat. fuck this shit.
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
I'm split on "studies" related to fitness, simply because there is so much that is misunderstood about actual, correct application of exercise (i.e. testing the danger of squats with groups that don't know how to squat correctly, the saturated fat fiasco of the 90's, etc.) that it's hard to trust them.

There are no studies related to drinking a gallon of milk a day to gain strength, power, and weight--it's just been done since the 70's and has worked.

Under normal circumstances, with a subject that is more understood by the public, I might rely more on studies. But a lot of health and sports "professionals" don't know shit.
 
B

Bearded Dudebro

Member
This is what I'm afraid I'll be facing too.

~Kinggi~ said:
i have a hardline phobia of gaining back fat. This really annoys the fuck out of me that i am having such slow growth. I dont want to go to the gym anymore, not seeing the point.
Click to expand...

I did type that right, I know it was mostly the weight of the food/water. Yeah there's no way I'd gain that in a week. But the caloric surplus was enough for 2 lbs a day. If I had kept it up for a month, I would have gained 30 of fat. But even if it's clean foods, aka not junk foods like I had eaten, you can still get that surplus and gain fat.


Mr.City said:
30lbs? Did you type that right? There's no way you could gain 30 lbs of pure fat/muscle in 7 days alone.
Click to expand...
 
F

FallingEdge

Member
~Kinggi~ said:
I've been weight training for probably a year and a half now. I am nowhere near as muscular as I should be. This is cause ive been doing weights while not overeating. I have a lot of protein but i dont horde food. Shit can get expensive too. I used to be very overweight and i have a hardline phobia of gaining back fat. This really annoys the fuck out of me that i am having such slow growth. I dont want to go to the gym anymore, not seeing the point.

I just cant make the step to become the blob and then do a 'cutting' routine after that. There's gotta be a fucking way to get cut and muscular without getting fat. fuck this shit.
Click to expand...

You can do a slow bulk or a recomp and go from there.
 
V

Veezy

que?
Bearded Dudebro said:
But obviously you want to do it cleanly right? For example, In the past, I've eaten everything in sight for a week. I was actually 30 lbs heaver after that week. Not as part of a bulk or anything, I was just being an idiot. Course a lot of it was the weight of the food. But I could have maintained eating like that if I wanted. The excess should be in moderation and clean foods right?
Click to expand...

Well, yes. Other's may have different suggestions and I don't know your body shape, but my general recommendation for people works like this, when I'm not getting super technical.

1. Grab a camera. Take a picture from the front. Now the side. Now your other side. Date the pictures and don't lose them.
2. Get on a solid, consistent, work out program. Grayskull LP, 5/3/1, or SS are all excellent choices. Yes, you may do conditioning. I have seen GS work with great success, but all will do you just fine.
3. Get on a consistent diet. You do this by planning out your meals, counting your calories per meal, and your protein per meal. A good base line to start, depending on your goals, is 2000-3000 calories and getting 30% of that from protein. That's 600-900, approx, calories from protein which is around 150-225 grams of protein per day.

(Side note, if you're younger you can eat a lot more. Some people recommend eating 5k calories, but honestly for most people that's just too much to start off on and telling somebody to drink a gallon of whole milk can get risky if people are really concerned about how their body looks.)

4. Try to keep your carbs and fats healthy in each meal.
5. Do this for a month.
6. Take pictures again. You should have some changes.

Now, here's the fun part. Look at the before and after and find out what you want to do. Need more weight? Kick up the calories. Need less, drop them down. Don't cut out all your fats and carbs, but make sure you're getting your protein in. The scale deceives, the pictures do not.

Honestly, bulking and cutting can have some similar diets with just a different quantity and maybe more dirty food on the bulk end. If you don't care how you look, you can grab everything in site. I find most people are happier when they see their results not just in the weight room but in the mirror.
 
B

Bearded Dudebro

Member
That's funny you laid it all out like that. That's exactly what I've just started doing. I actually got weighed and had my bodyfat hydrostatically tested as a starting point. I figured out how many calories I need to maintain using that info, and I'm adding to it. I'm doing the pictures and measurements every month too.

Veezy said:
1. Grab a camera. Take a picture from the front. Now the side. Now your other side. Date the pictures and don't lose them.
2. Get on a solid, consistent, work out program. Grayskull LP, 5/3/1, or SS are all excellent choices. Yes, you may do conditioning. I have seen GS work with great success, but all will do you just fine.
3. Get on a consistent diet. You do this by planning out your meals, counting your calories per meal, and your protein per meal. A good base line to start, depending on your goals, is 2000-3000 calories and getting 30% of that from protein. That's 600-900, approx, calories from protein which is around 150-225 grams of protein per day.

(Side note, if you're younger you can eat a lot more. Some people recommend eating 5k calories, but honestly for most people that's just too much to start off on and telling somebody to drink a gallon of whole milk can get risky if people are really concerned about how their body looks.)

4. Try to keep your carbs and fats healthy in each meal.
5. Do this for a month.
6. Take pictures again. You should have some changes.

Now, here's the fun part. Look at the before and after and find out what you want to do. Need more weight? Kick up the calories. Need less, drop them down. Don't cut out all your fats and carbs, but make sure you're getting your protein in. The scale deceives, the pictures do not.

Honestly, bulking and cutting can have some similar diets with just a different quality and maybe more dirty food on the bulk end. If you don't care how you look, you can grab everything in site. I find most people are happier when they see their results not just in the weight room but on the scale.
Click to expand...
 
M

Mr.City

Member
~Kinggi~ said:
I've been weight training for probably a year and a half now. I am nowhere near as muscular as I should be. This is cause ive been doing weights while not overeating. I have a lot of protein but i dont horde food. Shit can get expensive too. I used to be very overweight and i have a hardline phobia of gaining back fat. This really annoys the fuck out of me that i am having such slow growth. I dont want to go to the gym anymore, not seeing the point.

I just cant make the step to become the blob and then do a 'cutting' routine after that. There's gotta be a fucking way to get cut and muscular without getting fat. fuck this shit.
Click to expand...

First, you need to relax. The parts I've bolded indicate fears, hard judgements regarding your routine and progress.

Second, you have some strange misconceptions about gaining muscular bodyweight and cutting body fat. You have to get fat and then cut to get stronger? Where did this come from. Generally, you needs to get more if you want to gain some muscular bodyweight, and yes, body fat comes along for the ride too unless drugs are involved.

Third, you've mentioned nothing about your programming, goals, etc. From your post, it sounds like you want to be Six-Pack Jack with no idea how to get there. You live in a flurry of sound bites and quotes from various forums, magazines, and main stream media. Isn't it about time you've educated yourself (this goes to many others posters here too)

A few good sources off the top of my head are : 70s big, Starting Strength.com, Bodyrecomposition.com, Alan Aragon's webiste to name a few.

Four and finally, if you stop going to the gym because you're not happy with the way you look now, then holy shit, Susanne, you're not going to be in love with yourself 6 months from now.

Edit: Posts like this remind me like I dislike training for appearances.
 
S

snack

Member
Hey guys! I just started doing squats... I'm about 5" 9' and weigh around 148 lbs. How much weight should I be aiming for on the squats? I'm trying to work my calves enough so I can touch the basketball rim. I'm about a good five inches shy of it.

Are there any other great leg exercises that you guys could recommend for me? Thanks.
 
V

Veezy

que?
Bearded Dudebro said:
That's funny you laid it all out like that. That's exactly what I've just started doing. I actually got weighed and had my bodyfat hydrostatically tested as a starting point. I figured out how many calories I need to maintain using that info, and I'm adding to it. I'm doing the pictures and measurements every month too.
Click to expand...

Exceptional!

Keep on it. True fitness is a long road. There is no quick fix and even the one magic pill that does work still requires food and gym time.

I've said it earlier, but remember to "embrace the smooth." When I started training almost 7 years ago i weighed 140lbs at 5 foot 9. In order for me to make some solid gains I had to sacrifice my stomach and it was a massive mental block. I never got fat, I just had to settle for a flat rather than cut stomach when I was looking to make gains. I found that it was never an issue and, while it takes a few months to get back, if I ever need it I know how to do it. I just really, really, hate conditioning. Las Vegas is not exactly too comfortable for powler work in the summer.
 
M

Mr.City

Member
snack said:
Hey guys! I just started doing squats... I'm about 5" 9' and weigh around 148 lbs. How much weight should I be aiming for on the squats? I'm trying to work my calves enough so I can touch the basketball rim. I'm about a good five inches shy of it.

Are there any other great leg exercises that you guys could recommend for me? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Deadlifts are another good un'. As for squats, start with the bar and do a set. Add 10-20 lbs and see how it feels. The fact that you're asking this question suggests that you've never squatted before, or at the very least, squat without being coached, so you may wish to educate yourself.
 
S

snack

Member
Mr.City said:
Deadlifts are another good un'. As for squats, start with the bar and do a set. Add 10-20 lbs and see how it feels. The fact that you're asking this question suggests that you've never squatted before, or at the very least, squat without being coached, so you may wish to educate yourself.
Click to expand...

I see. I'll look into deadlifts, thanks! I just came back from the gym and a buddy of a buddy of mine taught me some basic mechanics of how to do a proper squat. He added a resistance band for my knees too so I maintained proper posture. I got to 35lbs on each side on top of bar. Did 3x8 and it felt pretty good.
 
D

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
Para bailar La Bomba said:
Question guys -- is the non-whey protein component in milk, slow absorbing or fast absorbing protein?

I'm trying to ascertain the effectiveness of plain milk as a pre-workout drink.
Click to expand...

Milk is 70-80% whey, 20-30% casein. Casein is the slow-digesting one.

Casein on an empty stomach before bed time can still be pumping protein into your bloodstream after 7hrs, while whey on an emtpy stomach can be absorbed in 3hrs. If you take some solid food combined with milk protein, you'll slow the rate of digestion even more which is a plus.
 
P

Para bailar La Bomba

Banned
Domino Theory said:
Milk is 70-80% whey, 20-30% casein. Casein is the slow-digesting one.

Casein on an empty stomach before bed time can still be pumping protein into your bloodstream after 7hrs, while whey on an emtpy stomach can be absorbed in 3hrs. If you take some solid food combined with milk protein, you'll slow the rate of digestion even more which is a plus.
Click to expand...

Thanks man. Do any of you guys take lactase enzyme supplements?
 
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