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Dave Meltzer
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:28 AM)

Originally Posted by Dunk#7

What? Gakai does ALL the remote calculations for a game, and then streams the video back. Gakai is not NetFlix: Let's Play...

Sure, but that technology is being used for something different. Like I said, they have the servers to enable it, but the actual result currently is not the same thing. Nothing is stopping them doing something similar though, if it works for Xbox.
Zefah
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:28 AM)
No one is going to use the cloud effectively to make games look better or improve AI.

Comparing this to server side stuff in MMORPGs is just dumb.
Angelus Errare
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tagg9

But does Gaikai have 300,000 servers?

Well in 2011 they had 25 datacenters, but they never said how many servers they had per center.
kitch9
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Spartaner

yeah thanks for the trip down memory lane.

azure got introduced in 2008 is working ever since without any significant problems.

So they've been sending 3 Xbones to everyone with no problems since 2008?

Awesome.

I just wish they could get Skydrive to work right. It would be a good start.
bigboss370
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Raide

Simply DRM to get people to use the AH.

Originally Posted by macewank

performs server side dice rolls to determine loot drops and hit/miss calculations. things that would not use any significant amount of processing power to do locally.

didn't it use servers to store enemies and maps?
RetroStu
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:29 AM)

Originally Posted by Whipped Spartan

What ever happened to onlive? It seems like they announce almost the exact same things cloud wise save for sony on the downloads and demo's. And MS with the cloud graphics. In a round about way I feel like they are the same goals though. Using remote computers to improve someones experience. PS3 on handhelds etc...

Last i read was that they were dying on their arse and needed money to keep going, so much for a 'cloud gaming' future.
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by bigboss370

okay? and Diablo 3?

I don't recall Blizzard claiming that Diablo 3 was offloading compute tasks? That was pretty clearly just DRM too.

My guess is that if there are any games that do it they'll be online-only games anyway. But there will never be games that use it for graphics and I suspect only first-party games will do it. They're massively overselling it, that's obvious. But Windows Azure is a real thing and Xbone will be able to use it if developers can think of something to do.
Truant
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:31 AM)
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Azure is awesome. I work with it every day. I hope Microsoft can pull it off.
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:31 AM)
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cloud cant be used for realtime computational task like AI or physics calculation no matter how much fast your internet is.
It can only be used for storing stated in game that happen over time in game world. for example take skyrim example on ps3. the problem arises when player makes to much changes in world and memory is not enough to store these changes. in this scenario these changes can be stored on cloud. but you still have to take in account that how much fast internet is that when you load game next time these changes appear to you instantly which is again quite hard.
it may be useful for always online games like MMO or multiplayer modes.

people who think that this can help achieve some how better graphics are in complete denial. unless xbox one streams the games and every thing is happening on cloud
SPDIF
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:31 AM)
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Originally Posted by kitch9

So they've been sending 3 Xbones to everyone with no problems since 2008?

Awesome.

I just wish they could get Skydrive to work right. It would be a good start.

What's wrong with SkyDrive?
Iced_Eagle
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:31 AM)
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Gaikai is cloud rendering, Cloud Computing is something different.

With cloud rendering, games are designed no different than they are today. Simplistically, they just have racks of PS3's which will be used to stream games. Games are still designed to run on a PS3, even though with Gaikai they are run on a server instead of on someones PS3 in their living room.

Cloud computing is the addition of more resources for the system. So locally you will have 8 cores 8GB of RAM, but in addition to that, they will have up to an additional 8 cores, 14GB of RAM in the cloud (assuming they use the same sized computing instances they have for Azure).

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is apples and oranges.
bigboss370
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I don't recall Blizzard claiming that Diablo 3 was offloading compute tasks? That was pretty clearly just DRM too.

My guess is that if there are any games that do it they'll be online-only games anyway. But there will never be games that use it for graphics and I suspect only first-party games will do it. They're massively overselling it, that's obvious. But Windows Azure is a real thing and Xbone will be able to use it if developers can think of something to do.

I don't see how even first parties can use it. Games will never look better than what the system hardware can handle. Unless you are streaming video from a device with better specs.
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by bigboss370

I don't see how even first parties can use it. Games will never look better than what the system hardware can handle. Unless you are streaming video from better a device with better specs.

Yes, like I said, they're overselling it. It wont be used for graphics tasks.
Spartaner
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:33 AM)

Originally Posted by kitch9

I just wish they could get Skydrive to work right. It would be a good start.

what exactly doesnt "work right" ?
ive been using it for years (not extensively) and had no problems.
ThisWreckage
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:33 AM)
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Originally Posted by Iced_Eagle

Gaikai is cloud rendering, Cloud Computing is something different.

With cloud rendering, games are designed no different than they are today. Simplistically, they just have racks of PS3's which will be used to stream games. Games are still designed to run on a PS3, even though with Gaikai they are run on a server instead of on someones PS3 in their living room.

Cloud computing is the addition of more resources for the system. So locally you will have 8 cores 8GB of RAM, but in addition to that, they will have up to an additional 8 cores, 14GB of RAM in the cloud (assuming they use the same sized computing instances they have for Azure).

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is apples and oranges.

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is comparing reality to science fiction.
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by bigboss370

I don't see how even first parties can use it. Games will never look better than what the system hardware can handle. Unless you are streaming video from a device with better specs.

Originally Posted by godelsmetric

Yes, like I said, they're overselling it. It wont be used for graphics tasks.

. people who work with clouds can easily help you understand this scenario
enzo_gt
tagged by Blackace
(05-26-2013, 12:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by Iced_Eagle

Gaikai is cloud rendering, Cloud Computing is something different.

With cloud rendering, games are designed no different than they are today. Simplistically, they just have racks of PS3's which will be used to stream games. Games are still designed to run on a PS3, even though with Gaikai they are run on a server instead of on someones PS3 in their living room.

Cloud computing is the addition of more resources for the system. So locally you will have 8 cores 8GB of RAM, but in addition to that, they will have up to an additional 8 cores, 14GB of RAM in the cloud (assuming they use the same sized computing instances they have for Azure).

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is apples and oranges.

Pretty much this right here.
SPDIF
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by ThisWreckage

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is comparing reality to science fiction.

Hardly. Cloud computing is likely being used right this second.
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by enzo_gt

Pretty much this right here.

he is right but consider this also

Originally Posted by Fezan

cloud cant be used for realtime computational task like AI or physics calculation no matter how much fast your internet is.
It can only be used for storing stated in game that happen over time in game world. for example take skyrim example on ps3. the problem arises when player makes to much changes in world and memory is not enough to store these changes. in this scenario these changes can be stored on cloud. but you still have to take in account that how much fast internet is that when you load game next time these changes appear to you instantly which is again quite hard.
it may be useful for always online games like MMO or multiplayer modes.

people who think that this can help achieve some how better graphics are in complete denial. unless xbox one streams the games and every thing is happening on cloud

Originally Posted by SPDIF

Hardly. Cloud computing is likely being used right this second.

not for real time rendering tasks
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by ThisWreckage

Comparing Gaikai to cloud computing is comparing reality to science fiction.

You know that Windows Azure already exists, right?
GoofsterStud
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by bigboss370

okay? and Diablo 3?

The only games it has proven useful for are streaming games is where your system doesn't do any of the work just sends input to and displays output. This doesn't work for hardcore gaming. Even on a fiber optic, this still suffers from lag input.

The other thing is MMO's where the "cloud" keep tracks of whats going on, and your machine is sent data and then does all the work.

Originally Posted by godelsmetric

You know that Windows Azure already exists, right?

Yes, we develop for it. It is about 10 years away form anything of value from a gamers standpoint.

The data being sent is just to slow with to much interference. Using cloud to boost memory. Would actually slow you down as it'd be far slower than anything in your system and most likely your systems memory couldn't be anywhere near fully utilized.... 8 Gigs is plenty.
Ardenyal
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:37 AM)
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Gaikai actually exists in the real world and adheres to the laws of physics, unfortunately.
R dott B
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:39 AM)
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Can't comment because I'd prefer not to look like an ass.(In case I'm wrong)
danhese007
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:40 AM)
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Began, The

Have
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

Yes, we develop for it. It is about 10 years away form anything of value from a gamers standpoint.

I was addressing the idea that cloud computing is not real, like it's some kind of Cell thing where apparently your toaster would interface with your fridge or whatever.

Besides, anything of value? What about running simulations in open-world games so that instead of randomly instantiated occurrences a la RDR things are going on dynamically in areas you're not in?
kitch9
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by SPDIF

What's wrong with SkyDrive?

I have a dozen files a day fail to sync and I haven't even touched them.
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I was addressing the idea that cloud computing is not real.

Besides, anything of value? What about running simulations in open-world games so that instead of randomly instantiated occurrences a la RDR things are going on dynamically in areas you're not in?

this can only happen if you have a persistant online world like MMO or else you have to wait for the changes to happen
Eusis
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Toki767

Sim City has proven that the cloud isn't useful for extra power.

I admittedly do wonder if they just failed to push it like they could have. I imagine if they really cared they could've tried for more authentic city traffic, IE crunching the numbers of how often people pick backroads, why they pick them, etc and applying to the the game with the servers crunching that data to make it as authentic looking as possible... assuming something like that couldn't be done locally, and therein lies the problem.
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by kitch9

I have a dozen files a day fail to sync and I haven't even touched them.

My big problem with Skydrive is that they've moved to a Dropbox model whereas Live Sync was much, much better.

Originally Posted by Fezan

this can only happen if you have a persistant online world like MMO or else you have to wait for the changes to happen

Yes, as I said, I don't think they will use it in SP games.
rohlfinator
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dunk#7

But Gakai is also performing all the computations from the game. Why do people keep acting like they are just streaming video like Netflix?

It is, but it's doing the computations for a PS3 game (or PS2 or PS1). As far as I know anyway, they're not planning on streaming PS4 games are they?

I'd guess that there will also be a lot fewer concurrent users using Gaikai for BC compared to, say, people playing the new Halo on launch night.

The technology is similar but the magnitude is much less in Sony's case.
GoofsterStud
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

You know that Windows Azure already exists, right?

Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I was addressing the idea that cloud computing is not real, like it's some kind of Cell thing where apparently your toaster would interface with your fridge or whatever.

Besides, anything of value? What about running simulations in open-world games so that instead of randomly instantiated occurrences a la RDR things are going on dynamically in areas you're not in?

If your talking about Open-World online games like MMO's where it does the data to keep everyone seeing the same game. Then of course. Though we have better options.
Raide
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by Eusis

I admittedly do wonder if they just failed to push it like they could have. I imagine if they really cared they could've tried for more authentic city traffic, IE crunching the numbers of how often people pick backroads, why they pick them, etc and applying to the the game with the servers crunching that data to make it as authentic looking as possible... assuming something like that couldn't be done locally, and therein lies the problem.

I think most people can figure out it was more about DRM and less about needing to have it for all those complex calculations.

Like you said, if they actually put some love into it, then it could be really awesome...but then it would not be EA.
kitch9
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I was addressing the idea that cloud computing is not real, like it's some kind of Cell thing where apparently your toaster would interface with your fridge or whatever.

Besides, anything of value? What about running simulations in open-world games so that instead of randomly instantiated occurrences a la RDR things are going on dynamically in areas you're not in?

It wouldn't take 30 Xbox 360s to do that.
IHaveCandy
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:47 AM)
You can reliably stream video. You can't reliably send game data over the Internet for a home console to use to render the game.
Can Crusher
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:47 AM)
We are talking hypothetical so...

Kinda sorta not really, would be the right answer. The point about MS's bs was that they are gonna have 300 thousand servers across the world, and that will keep growing. That's the kind of juice you would need to really combat this smokey cloud bullshit.
SPDIF
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

My big problem with Skydrive is that they've moved to a Dropbox model whereas Live Sync was much, much better.

I've heard people say this before. I never did use Live Sync, what did it do better?
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

My big problem with Skydrive is that they've moved to a Dropbox model whereas Live Sync was much, much better.


Yes, as I said, I don't think they will use it in SP games.

According to microsoft they will improve graphics fidelity by using clouds(their comment that xbone is 30% more powerful than 360 using cloud without it its only 10%) is completely pr bullshit and some people are believing it
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

If your talking about Open-World online games like MMO's where it does the data to keep everyone seeing the same game. Then of course. Though we have better options.

I was thinking more like Oblivion's 'Radiant AI' thing but more complex. Actually functioning economies, agents with desires in the game world, etc. It all runs in the cloud when you're far away from them, and as you get close the relevant data for the area you're entering gets sent to the Xbone which takes over.

I mean I assume this kind of thing is feasible.

Originally Posted by SPDIF

I've heard people say this before. I never did use Live Sync, what did it do better?

Instead of having a single folder which got synced, you got to pick folders on your HDD that got synced. So you didn't have to change where you saved files etc.
GoofsterStud
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I was thinking more like Oblivion's 'Radiant AI' thing but more complex. Actually functioning economies, agents with desires in the game world, etc. It all runs in the cloud when you're far away from them, and as you get close the relevant data for the area you're entering gets sent to the Xbone which takes over.

I mean I assume this kind of thing is feasible.

If your talking to mimic the real world in every way. That'll never happen. The government would shut down gaming before that happens. This just became to much of a terrorist training camp.
Fezan
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by godelsmetric

I was thinking more like Oblivion's 'Radiant AI' thing but more complex. Actually functioning economies, agents with desires in the game world, etc. It all runs in the cloud when you're far away from them, and as you get close the relevant data for the area you're entering gets sent to the Xbone which takes over.

I mean I assume this kind of thing is feasible.

.

Yup this is possible but may be after 10 years or more but in case cloud has to run separate worlds for each player separately. in this case you still have to be always online and it may be better to completely move all the game data to cloud like gaikai or onlive
twobear
sputum-flecked apoplexy
(05-26-2013, 12:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

If your talking to mimic the real world in every way. That'll never happen. The government would shut down gaming before that happens. This just became to much of a terrorist training camp.

I...what?

I'm talking like, Skyrim or something here.

Originally Posted by Fezan

Yup this is possible but may be after 10 years or more but in case cloud has to run separate worlds for each player separately. in this case you still have to be always online and it may be better to completely move all the game data to cloud like gaikai or onlive

It's not like it has to render anything though. And yes I realise that it would have to stay online 100% of the time. Or you could have Cloud saves and Local saves and when you're playing locally you don't get the same kind of stuff or whatever.
Eusis
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:54 AM)

Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

If your talking to mimic the real world in every way. That'll never happen. The government would shut down gaming before that happens. This just became to much of a terrorist training camp.

You could likely do a closer facsimile this way at least though, which is one of the main advantages I can see in something like this as that may be too much of a pain to bother crunching locally unless the game's much smaller, like a single city small. Or you could just script it all like Ultima VII did but that won't be as dynamic.
rohlfinator
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Eusis

I admittedly do wonder if they just failed to push it like they could have. I imagine if they really cared they could've tried for more authentic city traffic, IE crunching the numbers of how often people pick backroads, why they pick them, etc and applying to the the game with the servers crunching that data to make it as authentic looking as possible... assuming something like that couldn't be done locally, and therein lies the problem.

The big problem IMO is who pays for it? EA routinely shuts down matchmaking servers for games that probably have tiny amounts of players.

Is anyone going to be happy when they try to load up SimCity in a few years and EA shut down the cloud server, making the game unplayable?

I can't see any publisher doing anything heavy-duty with the cloud unless they can monetize it somehow. So far I haven't heard any ideas that anyone would want to pay a monthly fee for.
krypt0nian
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:55 AM)
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There's nothing to combat.
Phonomezer
Banned
(05-26-2013, 12:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

If your talking to mimic the real world in every way. That'll never happen. The government would shut down gaming before that happens. This just became to much of a terrorist training camp.

Wut.
Eusis
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:57 AM)

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

The big problem IMO is who pays for it? EA routinely shuts down matchmaking servers for games that probably have tiny amounts of players.

Is anyone going to be happy when they try to load up SimCity in a few years and EA shut down the cloud server, making the game unplayable?

I can't see any publisher doing anything heavy-duty with the cloud unless they can monetize it somehow. So far I haven't heard any ideas that anyone would want to pay a monthly fee for.

That's why it's likely a dead end for now or at least better relegated to MMOs. You could do some really neat things, but that's just it: neat things. Not necessarily makes the game fantastic or anything, and you can get close with some less CPU intensive alternatives (as mentioned Ultima VII's NPC scheduling), Microsoft's possibly the best shot at doing it and they're pulling it off because they're one of the biggest tech companies in the world... and it'd still be with a Gold subscription probably (though it is more warranted than right now at least.)

EDIT: And now that I think about I realized I misread GoofsterStud's post. I thought when he said "can't mimic the real world" he'd meant the NPCs would rebel and shut their own government down. And if that can happen by mistake it's probably one of the greatest games or at least pieces of gaming tech ever made and worth seeing.
Valnen
Member
(05-26-2013, 12:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Toki767

Sim City has proven that the cloud isn't useful for extra power.

No it didn't. They didn't actually try and make the game better with cloud computing like has been proposed with xbone. They just lied and said they did. So no, Sim City proved nothing of the sort and it's absurd people keep bringing this up as an example.
onQ123
Junior Member
(05-26-2013, 12:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by ThisWreckage

This cloud bullshit is just a way for Microsoft to deflect attention away from their underpowered machine. It's working too. It's science fiction nonsense that will never come into fruition.

the cloud computing stuff is real & can be used for things like having a really large data base of AI commends that could make interaction with the games more natural.
Infusion
Banned
(05-26-2013, 01:00 AM)
Gaikia and Azure are not the same one is a streaming client for hd content. The other is Cloud computing for developing stuff like VMs ect.
Infusion
Banned
(05-26-2013, 01:02 AM)

Originally Posted by RetroStu

Last i read was that they were dying on their arse and needed money to keep going, so much for a 'cloud gaming' future.

All those onlive people work at MS now they hired them after that layoff.

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