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Why do Japan studios make lots of white leads but US studios don't make asian ones?

D

Durrzerker

Banned
I've been thinking about this and I figured I would ask and get the opinion of other people here. It seems like Japan loves making games with white protagonists, despite white people being an extreme minority in Japan Metal Gear Solid, Bayonetta, many Final Fantasy games, Vanquish, etc, etc, you could honestly probably list more white protagonists from Japanese games than Asian ones, at least AAA ones.

Well that definitely does not go both ways. American games also tend to have primarily white leads. Is this because both Japan and the United States think you will sell more with a white lead, even in Japan? If that is the case then why is that at least in Japan?

I just think it's interesting because it's a very common argument for people to say that they want characters who represent them, and they want a variety as well. I am one of those people. Yet despite having primarily Asian developers, AAA Japanese studios don't seem to represent themselves a lot.

Discuss!
 
U

User123456

Member
I've often heard the argument that stylized characters that we might consider caucasian/etc. Are actually viewed as asian in the eyes of the asian market.

Think of Ryu, his features look more western than eastern to me but he's asian as far as I know. Also the case with many anime aesthetic characters.

I'm sure there are other factors into play but it's something to consider.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
Rukumouru said:
I've often heard the argument that stylized characters that we might consider caucasian/etc. Are actually viewed as asian in the eyes of the asian market.

Think of Ryu, his features look more western than eastern to me but he's asian as far as I know. Also the case with many anime aesthetic characters.

I'm sure there are other factors into play but it's something to consider.
Click to expand...


I'm sure that's true for a lot of characters but I was mostly thinking about all the Japanese Studios that make blatantly American or English characters such as Solid Snake. Even in fantasy settings they tend to make a lot of blatantly White characters. Nioh and Gravity Rush being good recent examples.
 
Raonak

Raonak

Banned
Most of the time the characters are infact meant to be japanese.
It's just that westerners mistake them as European characters because they lack features they consider asian.

eg: The cast of persona are all japanese.
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
Because the western folks aren't comfortable to play Asian leads, whereas the opposite isn't as resistant.

I meant as a broadly generization.

You can chalk it up as cultural dominance.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
Raonak said:
Most of the time the characters are infact meant to be japanese.
It's just that westerners mistake them as European characters because they lack features they consider asian.

eg: The cast of persona are all japanese.
Click to expand...


I know that's true but there is a lot of examples I can think of where that is not the case where as it's not nearly as common for there to be Asian characters in Western games.

Platinum Games for example almost exclusively makes white protagonists. Nier Automata is definitely vague, but Bayonetta and Vanquish not so much.
 
R

RAWi

Member
I suppose it is related to media exposure. Most countries are exposed to American movies and series, while the other way doesn't happen much. US needs more Asian movies with Asian leads. Recently there have been more Russian, Korean and Japanese movies in America (not US, but continent). As time goes on, and more movies appear over here, I am sure we'll get more diverse leads... I hope.
 
S

#sorrynotsorry

Member
I would say it is a matter of audiences. US media dominates the world, even Japan. So the Japanese people are accustomed to white leads. The US and Asian, not so much beyond the traditional stereotypes. So it makes sense for a developer to create a white character. It is more likely to be accepted.

This isn’t an endorsement of that of course. Just my observation on what I imagine is the root cause.
 
Elfstar

Elfstar

Member
Most big japanese games are meant to be sold overseas.

Also, most of those games' protagonists are not actually white anyway.
 
KonradLaw

KonradLaw

Member
A lot of those games are stylized anime-like, which means they're actually asian.
And for the rest, they're selling to western markets. And there majority of gamers are white. And since japanese gamers don't mind playing white protagonists you get the widest possible appeal with those games, being able to cover both western and japanese markets.
 
R

Razgriz-Specter

Member
Durrzerker said:
Huh. I did not know that.
Click to expand...
Snake was Japanese-British according to MG2SS' manual,
in MGS1 it was referenced about Solid Snake having eastern blood.
MGS3's official guide established that Big Boss was 3rd generation Japanese American.
MGS4 then added that Solid and Liquid's egg donated mother was a Japanese woman.
 
R

rackham

Member
I want to turn this around and talk about Japanese studios making Asian females and why they always look like anime shit or some mouse faced developer dream girl. It's sad.

Idk though. US devs can't even make minority characters voiced/acted by minorities so your guess is as good as mine.
 
SiteSeer

SiteSeer

Member
japanese devs gotta market to an international (western) audience to make the big bucks, westerners would rather buy a game where the characters look like them. japanese fans settle with the characters' names being japanese than looking japanese (which they may even prefer). i guess everyone wins?
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
It's the exactly the same reason why any ecosystem oriented companies vying for world domination first will wants to be the market leader in the US.

Winning the US often meant winning over the world.
 
W

weltalldx

Member
Unless the game specifically say a character is white, ie name, country of origin, ethnicity, it is quite naive and oversimplifying to associate drawn characters as white. I am quite sure many Japanese gamer don't automatically make that association.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
weltalldx said:
Unless the game specifically say a character is white, ie name, country of origin, ethnicity, it is quite naive and oversimplifying to associate drawn characters as white. I am quite sure many Japanese gamer don't automatically make that association.
Click to expand...


Can't say I agree with you here. Even if you want to argue that anyone who's undefined should be assumed Asian it raises the question of why they make them look so ambiguous which is a whole different can of worms.
 
X

x24hrs2livex

Banned
Ever since I started watching anime this has always been my main question. I've never received an answer from knowledgeable anime watchers or from anime forums.
 
V

Valkerionseven

Member
Assume its the same way of thinking as anime. Most characters are not really considered to be "anything" in terms of race unless its specifically noted or mentioned. Just like hair color, skin color generally does not mean anything, its just for appealing design.

A lot of the "realistic" Japanese games set in real world Japan and what not rarely come outside the country. Yakuza seems to be one of the few at the moment, and look how much struggle that took to get some spotlight.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
Valkerionseven said:
Assume its the same way of thinking as anime. Most characters are not really considered to be "anything" in terms of race unless its specifically noted or mentioned.

A lot of the "realistic" Japanese games set in real world Japan and what not rarely come outside the country. Yakuza seems to be one of the few at the moment, and look how much struggle that took to get some spotlight.
Click to expand...


I keep seeing this argument and I get it but it kind of adds into my question. Why do you think they avoid outing the character as explicitly Asian or not? Do you think there's a hesitation to do so because they think it will be less popular if they cannot at least pass as white? Thst is my concern really.
 
P

plasmawave

Banned
Durrzerker said:
Can't say I agree with you here. Even if you want to argue that anyone who's undefined should be assumed Asian it raises the question of why they make them look so ambiguous which is a whole different can of worms.
Click to expand...

This is like saying western cartoon characters rarely resemble realistic white people.
 
P

psychowave

Member
SuperDowns said:
Wow such a stickler for the rules when it suits you and your extreme apathy toward any meaningful discussion such as proper representation and white washing of roles in US media.
Click to expand...

I was being facetious, my guy. Games are inherently political. This is a thread about politics and video games. The new rule makes no sense.
 
Elfstar

Elfstar

Member
Durrzerker said:
I keep seeing this argument and I get it but it kind of adds into my question. Why do you think they avoid outing the character as explicitly Asian or not? Do you think there's a hesitation to do so because they think it will be less popular if they cannot at least pass as white? Thst is my concern really.
Click to expand...

Anime characters not only do not look like asians, they just don't look like people.
They're super stylized antropomorphic-like aliens.

What kind of racial features do you think makes them not look like japanese?
It's just because they have big/huge eyes? Or because their skin color looks more like the one of a white person?

It's just an heavy stilizations that allows everyone to project into them whatever they want.
No one in Japan thinks that anime characters do not represent them.

I say this as an asian person.
 
SiteSeer

SiteSeer

Member
plasmawave said:
This is like saying western cartoon characters rarely resemble realistic white people.
Click to expand...

speaking of western cartoons anyone else notice that a good amount of post 2000s character design incorporate almond shaped eyes for 'western' characters? especially for female characters. disney/pixar is a big one.
 
S

SuperDowns

Banned
psychowave said:
I was being facetious, my guy. Games are inherently political. This is a thread about politics and video games. The new rule makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Lots of conservative ugliness, " shucks let the games and everything be separate " without trying to be empathic or any modicum of civil discourse. Hard to know who is not showing themselves as, at best, above it all and not taking a stand. At worst, a Gamergate troll who just spreads misery for misery's sake.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
Elfstar said:
Anime characters not only do not look like asians, they just don't look that people.
They're super stylized antropomorphic-like aliens.

What kind of racial features do you think makes them not look like japanese?
It's just because they have big/huge eyes? Or because their skin color looks more like the one of a white person?

It's just an heavy stilizations that enables everyone to project into them whatever they want.
No one in Japan thinks that anime characters do not represent them.

I say this as an asian person.
Click to expand...

Not really talking about exaggerated or stylized games though. I'm talking about games like Vanquish where it is not only the appearance of the character but also their blatant patriotism or strong connections to the United States government that tend to be very big. Japan seems to not only be interested in making ethnically white characters but also ones attached to the United States military industrial complex. Even once they turn out to be Asian later like I just recently learned about Solid Snake, they are still very much presented as primarily American.


Realize I'm not really articulating this will but I guess part of what I'm saying is that it seems like Japanese games and media or more inclined to go with stylization that can pass off as any ethnicity where is American Media really shoves into your face that the character is white. For lack of a better term it just almost feels like a lot of Japanese games want a degree of plausible deniability to be white passing.

You don't see a lot of American games that go out of their way to make a character ethnically ambiguous.
 
KonradLaw

KonradLaw

Member
Durrzerker said:
Can't say I agree with you here. Even if you want to argue that anyone who's undefined should be assumed Asian it raises the question of why they make them look so ambiguous which is a whole different can of worms.
Click to expand...

Because it's a way to cheaply animate characters that still look visually pleasing.
American cartoons are mostly ugly as sin because they try to have more detailed and realistic-looking characters, while lacking the budget to pull that off.
 
D

Durrzerker

Banned
KonradLaw said:
Because it's a way to cheaply animate characters that still look visually pleasing.
American cartoons are mostly ugly as sin because they try to have more detailed and realistic-looking characters, while lacking the budget to pull that off.
Click to expand...


This is a pretty good point. Heavy stylization obviously has budgetary benefits.
 
V

Valkerionseven

Member
Durrzerker said:
I keep seeing this argument and I get it but it kind of adds into my question. Why do you think they avoid outing the character as explicitly Asian or not? Do you think there's a hesitation to do so because they think it will be less popular if they cannot at least pass as white? Thst is my concern really.
Click to expand...

Very much doubt it.

Remember, Japan is 99+% Japanese with a growing but still not significant completely minority community (I'm counting half Japanese as full Japanese in this example) Just given how media is here I can't imagine for a second they are thinking about appealing specifically overseas audiences when making main characters in most anime and games. So I don't think its a matter of "avoiding" its just not thought about. Honestly its a deeper question than I or most of us can answer and it comes up every now and then, with no real answer.

Also in most stories about a fantasy world or setting most are not thinking Asian, white, or black, they are just characters.

Take something like Attack on Titan. A series with an expressed Japanese character... who looks the same as the rest of the cast and the only way we know is through the story and characters name.
 
Elfstar

Elfstar

Member
Durrzerker said:
Not really talking about exaggerated or stylized games though. I'm talking about games like Vanquish where it is not only the appearance of the character but also their blatant patriotism or strong connections to the United States government that tend to be very big. Japan seems to not only be interested in making ethnically white characters but also ones attached to the United States military industrial complex. Even once they turn out to be Asian later like I just recently learned about Solid Snake, they are still very much presented as primarily American.


Realize I'm not really articulating this will but I guess part of what I'm saying is that it seems like Japanese games and media or more inclined to go with stylization that can pass off as any ethnicity where is American Media really shoves into your face that the character is white. For lack of a better term it just almost feels like a lot of Japanese games want a degree of plausible deniability to be white passing.

You don't see a lot of American games that go out of their way to make a character ethnically ambiguous.
Click to expand...

I don't know, Vanquish looks like a very specific and unique case, after all.
Then of course we have series like Resident Evil or Metal Gear that feature explicitally american characters, but that's for very obvious commercial reasons, right?
Anyway Japan's art style is always more about the stylization and excapism side than the realistic one, while is almost always the countrary in the west.
 
S

StoneFox

Member
Razgriz-Specter said:
Your example of Metal Gear doesn't work, Kojima crowbars in that all of them are part Asian.
Click to expand...

Certainly not all, Raiden was African. :p

But as far as white character designs go, Sakaguchi (creator of Final Fantasy) stated that he made FFI as an attempt to make a Western style game (namely based off D&D), and so I think most of the time the characters were Western influenced for all the sprite-based games. Starting from FFVII, you can kinda argue that some of the characters sported more Asian looks. But it wasn't really until FFX that you could really see it; Tidus and Yuna were de facto anime designed protagonists.
 
tensuke

tensuke

Member
Japan loves the west. That's why there's so much English everywhere (and all those American celebrities that do commercials). Heck, isn't that why Avril Lavigne did that Hello Kitty stuff? I'd imagine it's also why there's so much European/American influence in anime/manga (obviously there's still a ton of Japanese culture involved, but they use European names and looks quite a bit). I suppose there could also be the desire to market and sell games in America/Europe which would by far be the largest markets to go into.

Here in America, well, we don't particularly love other countries in the same way (we mostly care about America), and whites are a majority of not only people but probably game devs. So it's just kind of a natural fit, for better or worse. At least that's when you take the western video game market as a whole. Certainly when you look a little deeper there are plenty of games that take influence from Japan/Asia and kind of romanticize those cultures and people. But for mass-market appeal, things get generalized to such a degree that we end up with what we've got.
 
Futaleufu

Futaleufu

Member
Razgriz-Specter said:
Snake was Japanese-British according to MG2SS' manual,
in MGS1 it was referenced about Solid Snake having eastern blood.
MGS3's official guide established that Big Boss was 3rd generation Japanese American.
MGS4 then added that Solid and Liquid's egg donated mother was a Japanese woman.
Click to expand...

Lupin III is supposed to be half japanese.
Sean and Laura from Street Fighter are also half japanese.

Hmm...
 
A

Arion

Member
I think part of it is the influence Hollywood movies have. A lot of these characters in Japanese games are inspired by Hollywood action movie characters. Solid snake in most likely inspired by Snake Pliskin from escape from new york for example.
 
H

HunterXZelos

Neo Member
This actually I think relates to why anime characters generally don't look asian.
There are already tons of articles and essays written on this, but one of the general gist is that they aren't necessarily caucasian even though they are drawn to resemble caucasian more. Think about Simpsons, they have yellow skin, which would indicate that they're asian...but we don't see them as asian, we see them as white, but why? It's similar to that.
 
C

C4Lukins

Junior Member
Durrzerker said:
I've been thinking about this and I figured I would ask and get the opinion of other people here. It seems like Japan loves making games with white protagonists, despite white people being an extreme minority in Japan Metal Gear Solid, Bayonetta, many Final Fantasy games, Vanquish, etc, etc, you could honestly probably list more white protagonists from Japanese games than Asian ones, at least AAA ones.

Well that definitely does not go both ways. American games also tend to have primarily white leads. Is this because both Japan and the United States think you will sell more with a white lead, even in Japan? If that is the case then why is that at least in Japan?

I just think it's interesting because it's a very common argument for people to say that they want characters who represent them, and they want a variety as well. I am one of those people. Yet despite having primarily Asian developers, AAA Japanese studios don't seem to represent themselves a lot.

Discuss!
Click to expand...

Well I think one major difference is that Japanese characters in RPG’s for example are set in stone, while Western RPG,s allow you to create your own character, whether they be white, Asian, Black, or some sort of Lizard creature.

I think even looking at it in a general sense the numbers problem are not that far off.

While Japanese games may be more inclined to white protagonists then Western games are to Asian characters, Western games are more likely to have black, Native American, and Hispanic protagonists. Plus elves, dwarfs, and bandicoots.
 
L

lifeexpectancy

Member
psychowave said:
Isn't discussion of politics banned now?
Click to expand...
psychowave said:
I was being facetious, my guy. Games are inherently political. This is a thread about politics and video games. The new rule makes no sense.
Click to expand...

As is shitposting (still).

So stop shitposting. This thread isnt about politics.


And yeah OP it is curious why there arent more Asian inspired characters in gaming, although much less surprising that other countries' developers use a lot of caucasian-looking characters. Up until recently, gaming was very heavily influenced by market influences that catered to the white/western demographic. It still is, but that is slowly changing. You also have to factor in that for a long time, many (though not all) Asian countries and cultures were fascinated by the west, which was predominantly viewed as the 'white world', despite there being many races in western countries.
 
P

psychowave

Member
SuperDowns said:
Lots of conservative ugliness, " shucks let the games and everything be separate " without trying to be empathic or any modicum of civil discourse. Hard to know who is not showing themselves as, at best, above it all and not taking a stand. At worst, a Gamergate troll who just spreads misery for misery's sake.
Click to expand...

True, true. Should've added a /s at the end. My bad.
 
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