Is any community good at evaluating a set though?
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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
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Is any community good at evaluating a set though?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Wow this card is dumb in EDH
Was goldfishing again and went. T1 Land Mana Crypt T2 Land Ogre, pay 9 life > Wheel of Fortune, pay 15 life > Paradox Engine and after a couple mana rocks and giving wheel of fortune flashback I stopped.
This shit looks like garbage. Feels like Kamigawa 2.0.
The gods are trash atm. Theros gods could at least be tracked to turn on based on devotion, which you built through pips. This is larger hoops with less payoff I feel.
I also think gods should get their own card frame. They look bland on their own.
Two mana 4/4 is great, but fatal push, grasp.
Blue god having to have a full grip?? Fuck outta here.
I'm expecting white god to give creatures you control +1/+1 for 3W and you need five+ to turn a 4/4 vigilance on.
Save me Gideon
The gods are trash atm. Theros gods could at least be tracked to turn on based on devotion, which you built through pips. This is larger hoops with less payoff I feel.
I also think gods should get their own card frame. They look bland on their own.
Two mana 4/4 is great, but fatal push, grasp.
Blue god having to have a full grip?? Fuck outta here.
I'm expecting white god to give creatures you control +1/+1 for 3W and you need five+ to turn a 4/4 vigilance on.
Save me Gideon
Other than the underwhelming gods, I feel like the set is interesting so far. The -1/-1 counters (and some of the creative uses they've showed off, like the mana dork) add some interesting flavour (considering the graveyard theme, and potentially wanting/not wanting to kill off certain creatures), and embalm looks like a fun mechanic (love the embalm tokens.)
But, then, I'm not a Standard player, so my metrics for success are different. I went into this set completely uninterested (Mythical Egypt doesn't appeal to me, I expected a development disaster because of the rotation change, etc.), so my opinion had nowhere to go but up.
But, then, I'm not a Standard player, so my metrics for success are different. I went into this set completely uninterested (Mythical Egypt doesn't appeal to me, I expected a development disaster because of the rotation change, etc.), so my opinion had nowhere to go but up.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Magic Players: Wizards needs to stop forcing the face cards to be constructed all-stars because it's warping design!
Also Magic Players: These gods are fucking trash what the fuck is wrong with the stupid-ass designers fuck this set I'm going back to Hearthstone.
Also Magic Players: These gods are fucking trash what the fuck is wrong with the stupid-ass designers fuck this set I'm going back to Hearthstone.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Theros gods are a hit you can expect to see most of them played regularly in EDH.
The blue and black and green ones all saw play. Only Heliod flopped.
Simply Sarah
Member
These aren't nearly as flashy as the Theros ones. Players could think of all the wild things they could do even if they maybe weren't being realistic whereas these are much more subtle.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
False equivalency. The Theros gods weren't constructed all stars. The Theros gods were, however, unique. These gods are not unique in the same way. They're just special creatures. Wizards missed the ball design wise, not power wise.
I mean honestly the red god is the best one if not for grasp. the reach and how you can build the deck around explosive and fun plays is good.
This definitely feels lower in power than Kaladesh though.
There's not a lot of apparent synergy yet with older cards (beyond untapping and such to take advantage of exert, +1/+1 counters seem moot since cards want -1/-1 counters to make deals).
I'll keep looking though with a more objective eye this time around.
The instant cast untap +2/+2 lifelink is REALLY GOOD btw. You usually do not get that rate on a single use card, and it has a backup use. People may think it stinks right now but I guarantee it'll see play.
This definitely feels lower in power than Kaladesh though.
There's not a lot of apparent synergy yet with older cards (beyond untapping and such to take advantage of exert, +1/+1 counters seem moot since cards want -1/-1 counters to make deals).
I'll keep looking though with a more objective eye this time around.
The instant cast untap +2/+2 lifelink is REALLY GOOD btw. You usually do not get that rate on a single use card, and it has a backup use. People may think it stinks right now but I guarantee it'll see play.
divisionbyzorro
Member
The design is absolutely fine. They're creatures that don't behave like creatures unless you meet a specific criteria. They don't revert to enchantments because unlike on Theros, they don't need you to believe in them to exist. They exist no matter what, but you have to serve them before they'll participate in battle.
The only thing wrong with them so far is that they're "meh" (EDIT: in terms of power level).
FreedomFrisbee
Member
Theros gods did a number of new things. Creature enchantments and devotion. These gods are just glorified creatures that mechanically could fit into any set. I really expected them to have the gods be splits creature/sorcery cards, regardless of how good they were.
Theros also had the advantage of having the first gods. Seeing undercosted indestructible beefy creatures that you need to put some work in to get them to fight for you isn't as interesting on the second go-around. Gods seemed really special in Theros because there was nothing like them before, but now it's just like "Yep, they're gods".
Not much that could've been done to avoid that though.
Not much that could've been done to avoid that though.
Kaladesh was way above average in power so this shouldn't be surprising.
These gods are fantastic flavour wise.
Market research wants what it wants. It's up to the designers to make the implementation cool.
You know I wouldn't put it past them to make Oketra 3WW because her monument is 3 and makes white creatures cheaper.
The abilities will always help turn the gods on. So if the condition is "have a lot of dudes," the ability will almost certainly be "make a dude token." Which sounds about right for white.
And honestly, a 4/4 Indestructible Vigilance that can sink my mana into dude tokens sounds totally sweet. Although I play Limited almost exclusively, which gives me a different view on cards. And perhaps with enough Entomb around mana sinks will be less valuable in this set...
...don't all the monuments do that?
In other news, anyone think we might get some new Incarnations this block? They were one of my favorite parts of the OG graveyard block, and seem reasonable on-theme in Amonkhet.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't think they are on point with the flavour. The set is about trials but the gods demand a continued success instead of being fait accompli.
It doesn't help that Keffet is an Azure Mage.
It doesn't help that Keffet is an Azure Mage.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So weird rules question: the tokens still have Embalm right? They'll never get to use it since they don't hit the graveyard, but if an artifact say, pumps creatures with embalm that includes the tokens yeah?
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, which I think implies that there's nothing that effects creatures with embalm in that way. If there is an artifact, it would very likely be templated "Embalm costs of creatures in your graveyard cost 1 less to activate". The tokens never exist in the GY, so it won't ever matter.
Correct. Tokens would just cease to exist so they never get to embalm again.
Also the AKH xml is out there for Cockatrice brewing.
Here's my Jund Nearbent (Hellbent or close to it)
Infinite Stars
Member
I'll maintain the reason why Heliod didn't see play stems from the lack of Payoff in MonoWhite Devotion. His static ability of granting Vigilance wasn't anywhere near as Good as Thassa or Purphoros, and his activated ability was kind of shitty. Black/Blue/Green all got kind of insane payoff cards(Master of Waves, Gary, Polkuranos) while white got... Heliod's Evangel. I think if you had tweaked something on Evangel/Heliod(Maybe give Heliod the +1/+1, First Strike to his spear, Vigilance to Archetype of Courage) then you'd have a "better" chance at Heliod having seen play.
The biggest issue for me from Amonkhet so far is that despite this being a topdown Egyptian set they chose to avoid one of the biggest popular culture parts of Egypt. From the start of this design they laid out that they were not touching Exodus with a 10 foot pole due to it's prevalence in the Abrahamic faiths. Yet the concept of this is ingrained within Western Culture to the point where we get a movie about it almost every decade at this point.
There's also a lack of identification in the gods of Amonkhet right now vs the Therosian Pantheon. With the gods of Theros nearly each one has a direct tie into the Greek Pantheon with their titles and portrayal.
The biggest issue for me from Amonkhet so far is that despite this being a topdown Egyptian set they chose to avoid one of the biggest popular culture parts of Egypt. From the start of this design they laid out that they were not touching Exodus with a 10 foot pole due to it's prevalence in the Abrahamic faiths. Yet the concept of this is ingrained within Western Culture to the point where we get a movie about it almost every decade at this point.
There's also a lack of identification in the gods of Amonkhet right now vs the Therosian Pantheon. With the gods of Theros nearly each one has a direct tie into the Greek Pantheon with their titles and portrayal.
divisionbyzorro
Member
You're completely right. The gods that saw play did so incidentally - the decks weren't built around enabling the gods, but the gods fit into what the decks did.
Blame religion on this one big time. For Kaladesh Indian religion also sucked what could have been fun on the plane, and here Exodus not being referenced or used at all means the plane just feels like "Babby's First Egypt" or more like "Theme Park: Egypt!"
Hasbro has been trying to get Magic to softball its new planes for a long time now, and if it's not some dead culture (greek, aztec/atlantis for Atlazan) it'll suffer as a result and as a plane until they revisit it with some crazy gimmick.
I actually expect Hour of Devastation to destroy the plane btw.
Kind of wish there was a way to get this into play earlier as a way to punish hand disruption. Like the card though.
Blame that on most people knowing fuck all about Egyptian gods. Beyond Anubis and Osiris, I doubt any random person on the street could name an Egyptian god and what they were supposed to do.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Bruh, I watched the entire run of Stargate SG-1 ask me anything.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I just had to think of it because in that song they mention like 2 dozens egyptian gods. Nephthys, Sobek, Sokar, Heket,... But yes incredible movie every time I'm watching. The songs in particular, weaving in the Hebrew, the visuals, movie has everything but a satisfying end.
CoconutTank
Member
Hmm, what if there was an artifact or enchantment that was like "whenever you would cycle a card, put it on the bottom of your library instead of discarding it."? Is there precedence for that sort of replacement effect? And if so, would that justify the explicit wording they use to say "cycle or discard"?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Patrick Stewart was Pharaoh. We could only be so lucky in Amonkhet.
Oh dang! I haven't listened to this soundtrack in forever. It is SO good. Thanks for mentioning it.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I have no insight as to power level, it just looks dumb so far.
Thassa saw heavy play, Erebos saw play as a sideboard card in Mono Black, Purphuros saw very little play outside of sideboards in red aggro, Nylea has a couple of fringe Mono-Green decks around her, and Heliod saw no play. None of the two color gods were played except small numbers of Xenagos in GR Monsters. Keranos saw play in Modern (and still does a little), but I never saw it in Standard. There are people who play Kruphix in EDH.
Thassa saw heavy play, Erebos saw play as a sideboard card in Mono Black, Purphuros saw very little play outside of sideboards in red aggro, Nylea has a couple of fringe Mono-Green decks around her, and Heliod saw no play. None of the two color gods were played except small numbers of Xenagos in GR Monsters. Keranos saw play in Modern (and still does a little), but I never saw it in Standard. There are people who play Kruphix in EDH.
charlequin
Banned
Or even moreso Dragons, which people relentlessly panned as a weak set and which then completely dominated Standard soon after its release.
This is definitely a real issue. WotC has constantly tweaked and fiddled with this process over time, and it's been better and worse relevant to current expectations at different points. Right now they're getting pretty good at this for the fall block (they did a very good job with Kaladesh imo) but they really don't seem to have any idea how to tackle it for the Spring block, and they're definitely underperforming on it for this particular season.
Basically none of them. Their reports on their new player market research (and this lines up with what I've seen for other games in the past) says that newbs always resist using cheaper or weaker effects in favor of waiting until they can get maximum value -- the equivalent is how new players will always wait until they can pay the kicker cost on their creatures, even when they'd be better off playing it right away.
I think the play patterns they'll produce are going to be more interesting in practice than people are assuming.
Infinite Stars
Member
I mean, I'd argue that there's a pretty big difference between not being able to use an element in a mechanically driven set like Kaladesh(where it's been levied that the Indian elements serve very much as surface level detail within the context of the set) vs a topdown heavy world like Amonkhet.
Wizards literally put a Kraken into Theros block because it was a line everyone knows from Wrath of the Titans, and that's one line from one film in a much, much broader influence of culture. I don't see how you can get a good top down set based on Egypt when you're cutting out a huge swath of the popular culture around the period.
I'm going to full on flip a table if we get Cleopatra who isn't even Egyptian
Yeah, nothing that any of the major gods did served as the core of a deck in Standard. Even Green Red Devotion didn't focus around Xenagos but around the huge Fatty dragons.
I'm not saying that we need an underclass strictly, but I'd imagine a Planar Portal would be helpful in letting the Amonkhetti escape the hour of Devastation. Gideon/Gatewatch fighting Bolas to "let the people go" would be a fair analogue.
I mean, I'm assuming Wizards would have thought ahead in the block planning instead of whatever they're doing, which could explain why they moved Kaladesh/Amonkhet.
I'd like to believe Ra is in the popular culture, but I'll admit they're not as well known.
Athreos was hyped but he didn't really see much play iirc. He and the rest of the dual-colored gods needed some better way to become creatures because 7 devotion was high.
charlequin
Banned
We're still probably better than Reddit (which thought the Serpopard was a more significant reveal than the bike lands) or Salvation (the less said the better), but that's saying very very little.
I lol'd.
I think in terms of lines of play and interesting angles, "draw a card and optionally return a land" is much more interesting than a triggered scry 1 plus ability to make guys unblockable, tbh.
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