This is what I said right after BoG. There was no reason why it had to be established as 10x more powerful then SS3 Goku. Everyone is hitting that point now anyways so what was the point in saying that?
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Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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This is what I said right after BoG. There was no reason why it had to be established as 10x more powerful then SS3 Goku. Everyone is hitting that point now anyways so what was the point in saying that?
I really liked the whole scene and how the music was used where Goku reveals his power to bergamo in the exhibition match.
That and when Vegeta gives his beatdown speech to Black.
TeamLeftMatch
Member
So what kind of training did 17 get? How many push-ups, how many sit-ups what kind of juice does he drink? Not really complaining because we just has an arc where Trunks took on characters stronger than SSB and still held his own really well
Now if Gohan and Piccolo arnt at least close to 17 strengths I'm going to have a problem.
The Silver
Member
The universe punching itself wasn't the real problem, it's just they should've never let Goku keep that power.
Getting back to that level of power on his own could've been something for Goku to aspire to.
Beerus: maybe one day you can reach and surpass that power on your own, who knows you might force me to actually get a little serious
Getting back to that level of power on his own could've been something for Goku to aspire to.
Beerus: maybe one day you can reach and surpass that power on your own, who knows you might force me to actually get a little serious
TheSpoiler
Member
This would have worked too. Like a taste of what is to come.
Solid Sora
Member
As someone who never considered power levels bullshit, and always cared for consistency in them, and thought that they were perfectly fine in the original manga until super fucked everything up, I'm perfectly fine with everything they did in this arc till now, including No. 17's power up.
I mean, we've never seen the result of an android training before, it was established in the series that someone who never trained before will get crazy gains when he does for the first time, No. 17 has always showed pride in his power, and the fact that he can't sense energy nor be sensed give a perfectly convincing reason for why he wasn't involved in any of the previous arc despite being super powerful.
I mean he had 10 years off-screen to achieve this level. I can buy that. It's not complete bullshit like Freiza and Trunks situations. It's something that's can be argued against, but at least has some thought put in it.
I mean, we've never seen the result of an android training before, it was established in the series that someone who never trained before will get crazy gains when he does for the first time, No. 17 has always showed pride in his power, and the fact that he can't sense energy nor be sensed give a perfectly convincing reason for why he wasn't involved in any of the previous arc despite being super powerful.
I mean he had 10 years off-screen to achieve this level. I can buy that. It's not complete bullshit like Freiza and Trunks situations. It's something that's can be argued against, but at least has some thought put in it.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I feel like that is the most stupid way to use the word 'train for x duration' to justify such a massive power up. In bodybuilding, to train your body means to push yourself against a limit that FORCES you to become stronger. When Goku goes on his way to Namek, he ACTUALLY TRAIN in much higher gravity in the capsule, same thing back in King Kai planet. In recent DBS, Goku and Vegeta trained with Beerus and Whis who are notably stronger than them and so it makes sense that they grew exponentially under them.
What did 17 do? Fight against some scrub hunters who carries machine guns? This is a freaking joke! It's like training your body with just regular push up everyday. Yeah you'll grow but eventually you'll reach a limit in strength. Hell I buy future Trunks's rapid progress in his power even more than 17, I mean at least Future Trunks lived in a far more dangerous environment and he's tasked to protect the world and also under constant threat of a powerful villain, which should help to mentally boost him to a higher height (even if the jump is still too sudden and asspull-y).
We don't know what 17 did and that's on purpose. 10 years training works a hella lot better than getting real angry that creates a new form and also gives Trunks a spirit sword.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Yeah, this is why the episode is bullshit.
TheSpoiler
Member
Are they going to explain it? I mean that in the sense that did the spoilers say something about it?
ArchedThunder
Banned
Wait, they don't have to eat?
Undead Fantasy
Member
I'm going to laugh when 18 suddenly becomes as strong as 17 just because.
They obviously don't care anymore so they will do it.
They obviously don't care anymore so they will do it.
Guys, you're overlooking the most import thing: 17 lives in a cabin in the woods, thus he has no Air Conditioning. That's where Goku and Vegeta made their mistake. You can't make Saitama-level gains in the free time your day job as a wild keeper and family man leaves you with if you have AC. It is known.
God Ki was a mistake. Nothing but trash.
The Silver
Member
no, Popo and Dende say 17 is stronger than before, Goku then says to himself that 17 probably kept training and 17 later says he wasn't just laying around all day, that's probably all we're gonna get on the matter.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Maybe 17 benches mountains in his off time.
Gohan probably will.
I think you need to eat some icecream and go to bed, you are way too upset about this.
Gohan probably will.
I think you need to eat some icecream and go to bed, you are way too upset about this.
17 will probably be the third strongest going into the tournament unless Gohan surpasses him when training with Piccolo.
17 is significantly stronger than 18, this isn't a matter of them not caring, this is them trying ot make changes in the status quo, with a character that was gone for awhile, who could realistically make these gains.
17 is significantly stronger than 18, this isn't a matter of them not caring, this is them trying ot make changes in the status quo, with a character that was gone for awhile, who could realistically make these gains.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Okay don't get me wrong 10 years is definitely enough time to gain some serious power ups, but they didn't even bother to explain HOW or WHAT exactly 17 did in those 10 years to grow stronger and stronger. Remember, this is a massive leap from SSJ1 standard to SSB. I hate how Toriyama intentionally or not ignores that SSJ2 and SSJ3 and SSG existed between SSJ1 and SSB. What kind of special training 17 had during the 10 years? It's never answered. It's just put out there and we all just have to accept the fact like idiots.
ArchedThunder
Banned
GAF is fucked up right now, it's weird.
Undead Fantasy
Member
No amount of ice cream or sleep will make me get over this.
This is where Dragon Ball jumped the shark.
The Silver
Member
You guys saw that thread in gaming side about the guy who grinded nonstop in the 1st area of FF7 and hit max level? Clearly this is what 17 did non stop with his infinte energy, grinding bears and poachers slowly getting his exp up, only going back home to rest with his family to put his skills points in the level up screen
When they introduced the Minotaurus, I instantly thought "They better not be doing the 'last of its kind' thing. I'm so tired of it." And sure enough, they did it.
Android 17 being Super Saiyan Blue tier is stupid, but I'll allow it, if it means that a non-Saiyan can be relevant again, even though it's likely only for this arc. I would've been really glad to see him regardless, because I always liked his character. Granted, a lot of that had to do with Chuck Huber's performance, but I guess the Japanese voice isn't bad either (just not as good).
Android 17 being Super Saiyan Blue tier is stupid, but I'll allow it, if it means that a non-Saiyan can be relevant again, even though it's likely only for this arc. I would've been really glad to see him regardless, because I always liked his character. Granted, a lot of that had to do with Chuck Huber's performance, but I guess the Japanese voice isn't bad either (just not as good).
SSJ3 is entirely pointless, and is a massive energy sink
17's history will probably be explained later, it might even be explained next episode with it being a 2 parter. With 17 not being concerned about the universe being destroyed, we still have more to learn on his backstory. We still don't fully know why he cares about the wildlife, though it's clear it's because of 16.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I'm telling you, he probably benches a mountain when he works out.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Looking back, I like Krillin's recent episode the most. He's gotten stronger, but at least we can see he had a gym room upstair, and he still doesn't come close to the level of SSB. We knew he trained and has gotten stronger than before, but he doesn't have that bullshit power jump and instead he mainly perfected his techniques, like the extended Solar Flare technique.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
I'd say the entire run of Super is guilty of it. Characters were always as strong as the plot needed them to be in this show.
Power levels are bullshit, but not having power levels combined with an author who doesn't give a shit...welcome to Dragon Ball Super where everything is made up and continuity doesn't matter.
The one thing I will say about DBZ is that it's power-ups were generally more built up. Super Saiyan was hyped up during the whole Namek arc. Guru talked about how Piccolo fused with Kami could have easily beaten Frieza. Gohan's potential was built up and paid off at the end of the Cell arc.
That said, I'll take power inconsistency if it means other characters can get more spotlight since I care about that more. Trunks defeating Zamasu was a lot more narratively satisfying than Goku or Vegeta doing so. Others getting significantly more powerful, so they aren't just fleas to opponents is great.
That said, I'll take power inconsistency if it means other characters can get more spotlight since I care about that more. Trunks defeating Zamasu was a lot more narratively satisfying than Goku or Vegeta doing so. Others getting significantly more powerful, so they aren't just fleas to opponents is great.
We need to just ignore the whole universe-destroying punches thing (or ignore the notion that goku retained his god power and just act like he received a MASSIVE powerup to his base form - enough to bring his base power up to the level of gotenks - but nowhere near the power he wielded as a god.) There have been many, MANY opponents since then who have been able to spar with Goku and Vegeta in Super Saiyan Blue, or even outright beat them (Golden Frieza was one).
Or, treat the universe destruction as a byproduct of two gods clashing, rather than a result of their power levels.
I mean, Toei has always fucked up this kind of thing. Freaking Yamcha was taking on Olibu and Paikuhan at the same time, and Paikuhan one shot Super Perfect Cell.
Or, treat the universe destruction as a byproduct of two gods clashing, rather than a result of their power levels.
I mean, Toei has always fucked up this kind of thing. Freaking Yamcha was taking on Olibu and Paikuhan at the same time, and Paikuhan one shot Super Perfect Cell.
Power levels were bullshit in Z, this isn't a Super thing, people are just blind to Z's bullshit, and are suddenly seeing it in Super, oblivious to how bad it was in Z at times. Some of it is filler, but that doesn't excuse it.
17 didn't want Goku to find out it's Launch, and as we saw in this episode, he isn't good at keeping secrets.
17 didn't want Goku to find out it's Launch, and as we saw in this episode, he isn't good at keeping secrets.
TeamLeftMatch
Member
Oh my god when he gave goku the phone I was like "Oh cool we get to see his kids" but they just let goku see it is the real bullshit right here. We need to see how 17 kids look yet Toei doesn't want to get those designs and would rather just say he has kids to not mess up if the manga had a different interpretations of his kids.
That was always dumb. And was always going to cause major problems. Was that even in Toriyama's draft? If not, that was obviously going to create problems in the future.
Undead Fantasy
Member
I wish this idea would die off. There's nothing wrong with the power scaling in Z.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I do have to wonder why we didn't get to see 17's family. My two guesses are that they just haven't made designs for them yet or maybe his wife will be an existing character and that will be a reveal later.
Gohan surpassed Goku's strength from the beginning of Z as a toddler, Goku got massively stronger training for 6 days on his way to Namek, Piccolo got stronger than second form Freeza by fusing with a Namekian that couldn't even touch first form Freeza, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan just by training by himself, Gero made 6 androids stronger than Freeza using data that ended after the Saiyan arc, Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans as small children just cause.
Gohan surpassed Goku's strength from the beginning of Z as a toddler, Goku got massively stronger training for 6 days on his way to Namek, Piccolo got stronger than second form Freeza by fusing with a Namekian that couldn't even touch first form Freeza, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan just by training by himself, Gero made 6 androids stronger than Freeza using data that ended after the Saiyan arc, Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans as small children just cause.
PeterLegend
Member
How dafuq did 17 get that strong???
Undead Fantasy
Member
With bullshit.
100 pushups, 100 situps and 20km of running every day. Also, no AC at home.
Through the drive to not become a Yamcha.
TeamLeftMatch
Member
I mean if we want a more bullshit power up we had Freeza reach levels stronger than SSB in only months of training.
Edit: how could I forget the moment when Dende just moved the lookout just like that. Took me by complete surprise.
Edit: how could I forget the moment when Dende just moved the lookout just like that. Took me by complete surprise.
ArchedThunder
Banned
He was a robot, so he didn't come back.
He's a robot, he has no soul, so no.
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