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Why are Strategy RPGS not as popular as the other RPG subgenres?
- Thread starter ULTROS!
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autoduelist
Member
SRPGs focus on combat mechanics. While this is my number one preference in games [I love SRPGs], it's no surprise that they're too complicated for most to care about.
I think mobile games have 'prepped' more people for SRPGs in some ways, since they've popularized the concept of 'map with dots, each dot is a mission' sort of world/battle menu.
I think people think they're too hard as well, which is silly, since most allow grinding and actually are far too easy. Once you understand their systems, of course.
I think mobile games have 'prepped' more people for SRPGs in some ways, since they've popularized the concept of 'map with dots, each dot is a mission' sort of world/battle menu.
I think people think they're too hard as well, which is silly, since most allow grinding and actually are far too easy. Once you understand their systems, of course.
Good point that doesn't get mentioned as much as it should. I think the best SRPGs try to downplay or outright circumvent RNG elements and the influence of stats. Too many seem to embrace these elements, if only because of tradition.
daninthemix
Member
Yeah, I love RPGs but avoid SRPGs. The only exception was Shining Force, which does have normal RPG-style exploration in-between battles.
Bending_Unit_22
Member
Because they don't involve the strategy part. Strategy requires actual thinking which is a malus though other things can play an additional role.
Elaugaufein
Member
FFT and Tactics Ogre were in some ways bad for the genre. They introduced a lot of stuff that has become almost synonymous with the genre but it also led to ridiculously complicated political stories , where you had to read optional in game stuff to understand the main story. Which is not great when there's probably an hour worth of battle in between story chunks.
Let's examine the claim that strategy RPGs are not as popular as other RPG subgenres.
What are said other RPG subgenres? Turn based encounter RPGs? Real time with pause RPGs? Action RPGs? Command based MMO style RPGs? Shooter RPGs? Dungeon RPGs?
It's hard to see how Strategy RPGs are less popular to anything other than Action RPGs which largely dominate the genre these days simply because of volume of output. It's really odd to "exclude" Fire Emblem from the analysis when it is the poster child for the subgenre. It would be like saying "excluding WoW and FFXIV, why are MMOs generally not that successful?"
In fact, I would say that realistically dungeon RPGs are probably the least popular subgenre in RPGs. They have a hardcore fanbase, but they have never really gotten a ton of sales ever. Even the most popular ones don't sell as well as popular strategy RPGs.
What are said other RPG subgenres? Turn based encounter RPGs? Real time with pause RPGs? Action RPGs? Command based MMO style RPGs? Shooter RPGs? Dungeon RPGs?
It's hard to see how Strategy RPGs are less popular to anything other than Action RPGs which largely dominate the genre these days simply because of volume of output. It's really odd to "exclude" Fire Emblem from the analysis when it is the poster child for the subgenre. It would be like saying "excluding WoW and FFXIV, why are MMOs generally not that successful?"
In fact, I would say that realistically dungeon RPGs are probably the least popular subgenre in RPGs. They have a hardcore fanbase, but they have never really gotten a ton of sales ever. Even the most popular ones don't sell as well as popular strategy RPGs.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Strategy games in general are fairly niche, especially outside of PC, and most SRPGs are on console. Combine that with the general high difficulty of the genre and the lack of exploration style of gameplay popular in many RPGs and you've got yourself a niche subgenre. It's my favorite type of game though. There are still lots of SRPGs made though, they just aren't usually high budget affairs.
Elaugaufein
Member
Darkest Dungeon is closer to an RPG, "row based" positioning is found in some very old RPGs. Though the way requiring and only targetting certain positions works is more in-depth for the most part.
SRPGs have 2.5d movement (sometimes 2D or 3D) using a grid, hexagon or sphere (free movement within a radius of where you started) movement system as their defining feature.
I think DRPGs have had their lunch eaten to some extent by Dungeon Crawlers which are very similar like most SMT games. If you just looked at say a screenshot of a single battle it's hard to tell SMTIV apart from say Demon Gaze. I'm not even sure if they should really be considered separate some of the time.
OuterLimits
Member
The 3DS has a decent amount of them.
Devil Survivor 1, and 2
Three Fire Emblem games
Project X Zone 1, and 2
Stella Glow
Mercenaries Saga 2, and 3
The terrible Langrisser game
Lord of Magna
Codename Steam
Most in the genre tend to be on portable systems now. Which I kind of prefer since the genre is great when traveling. The PS3 had a couple I liked such as Valkyria Chronicles, Tears to Tiara 2, and Disgaea 4 but most were on the PSP/Vita
Devil Survivor 1, and 2
Three Fire Emblem games
Project X Zone 1, and 2
Stella Glow
Mercenaries Saga 2, and 3
The terrible Langrisser game
Lord of Magna
Codename Steam
Most in the genre tend to be on portable systems now. Which I kind of prefer since the genre is great when traveling. The PS3 had a couple I liked such as Valkyria Chronicles, Tears to Tiara 2, and Disgaea 4 but most were on the PSP/Vita
Indeed.
The better question for the thread would be "Why are Strategy RPGs on home consoles not as popular as the other subgenres?" More of an interesting discussion to be had there.
Neoleo2143
Member
This is a much more interesting question. One of the biggest reasons that I'm looking forward to Fire Emblem Switch is that it's the first console Fire Emblem in a decade and potentially one of the highest budgeted SRPGs to date.
Otherwise, console SRPGs have largely disappeared aside for a handful such as Disgaea 5 and Natural Doctrine (which is very very good).
I think it's due to the time investment on part of the player combined with the usually lower level presentation values which would not carry the same expectations as one would on a handheld. The cost of production for the expected level of production values is probably beyond the level of profitability for most of these developers. A few like Valkyria Chronicles managed to breach the gap in presentation (probably due to being built for a console first) but failed in marketing until years later on Steam.
Elaugaufein
Member
Probably because they've spent the last 2 Gens primarily being on portable systems (and to a lesser extent PC) I guess ? SRPGs are a genre that has a hard time with the cost increase of the 3D leap since they tend to have a lot of characters that need to be distinctive visually. More so with Job system type SRPGs where it's traditional for the Job to effect appearance too.
texhnolyze
Banned
I mean, what makes Fire Emblem gained the new momentum in popularity? Yes, waifus.
Other SRPGs need to follow the formula to gain popularity.
Other SRPGs need to follow the formula to gain popularity.
Neoleo2143
Member
I think this is far too reductive. At least include the Husbandos as well.
MissCauthon
Member
Boring, slow and yeah boring. Ive tried them and it is not for me. I remember when i first tried final fantasy tactics. I was expecting a ff game never have i said so loud "wtf is this shit" lol.
I get some people love them so respect but really is not my cup of tea.
I get some people love them so respect but really is not my cup of tea.
I know this was meant as a joke, but the game still needs to be good.
Generally, if an SRPG is full of waifus, it's terrible.
SRPGs ride a fine line between depth of mechanics and accessibility, and it's not a line that many ride particularly well. Either they demand what feels like all of your time in order to fully grasp what the ruleset is and what 'correct strategy' looks like, or they're so barren of underlying considerations they can make you ask why it's even taking your time at all. FFT and Tactics Ogre are brilliant games, but I know plenty of people who look at how in-depth the tutorial gets and get intimidated. Not to mention they're not entirely easy games to navigate in general amid all the menus and various QoL considerations. Disgaea kinda falls into a similar category but it carved its' own sort of niche as the 'forever game'. But you can't evolve that niche much and so I don't think the audience had a much higher ceiling than the first few games.
And there's a million forgettable SRPGs that decide that a grid and some basic gimmicks constitute strategy. Zzz.
This is what FE gets right compared to so many other SRPGs. FE is fundamentally intuitive in a way that most other SRPGs simply aren't. The underlying mechanics are quick to grasp but harder to master. A lot of the 'strategy' of the game can be initially understood at a pretty simple level, where correct positioning and making logical assumptions about what the enemy will or can do in the current game state is what's most highly rewarded.
And I think most importantly, and it's something really small but essential, it's that FE feels good to play. Navigating menus can and often does feel like a chore in other games, but FE makes it simple and fast. It doesn't feel like the game gets in front of you or overwhelms you with options while still insinuating that there's more to discover.
And there's a million forgettable SRPGs that decide that a grid and some basic gimmicks constitute strategy. Zzz.
This is what FE gets right compared to so many other SRPGs. FE is fundamentally intuitive in a way that most other SRPGs simply aren't. The underlying mechanics are quick to grasp but harder to master. A lot of the 'strategy' of the game can be initially understood at a pretty simple level, where correct positioning and making logical assumptions about what the enemy will or can do in the current game state is what's most highly rewarded.
And I think most importantly, and it's something really small but essential, it's that FE feels good to play. Navigating menus can and often does feel like a chore in other games, but FE makes it simple and fast. It doesn't feel like the game gets in front of you or overwhelms you with options while still insinuating that there's more to discover.
I've enjoyed some that I've played, but the best in the genre always come back to me not having to grind to enjoy them. When I play a strategy RPG, I want it to be based around just that. Not whatever Disgaea is supposed to be. (I get 3-4 chapters in and I'm done with those games.)
This definitely applied to me. My first console was a N64 which didn't exactly have a treasure-trove of great RPGs. So it took me a while to get into RPGs and SRPGs.
Normal Action games give you direct controls, you push a button and something happens on-screen. It's instantly gratifying and in most cases, there's not a lot of learning required to have fun.
Classic JRPGs are slower, you have to think a few steps ahead and wait for a turn to see the effects of your button press. But you typically retain direct control over your character during exploration, so it's easier to see yourself in the role of the hero(s).
SRPGs have another level of abstraction, you feel like a commander directing troops from afar instead of the hero beating up monsters. You typically don't have those direct controls over your characters and the time it takes for an action to happen after you push a button can be quite long. The learning curve can be steep and SRPGs often require the biggest time investment out of those genres.
I'd compare Action games to playing with water guns or playing catch as a kid, JRPGs to classic board or card games that all follow similar rules, SRPGs to D&D or German designer boardgames. Those are all fun things to do, but the more time it takes to learn the rules and have fun doing it, the less people will be drawn to the activity.
Normal Action games give you direct controls, you push a button and something happens on-screen. It's instantly gratifying and in most cases, there's not a lot of learning required to have fun.
Classic JRPGs are slower, you have to think a few steps ahead and wait for a turn to see the effects of your button press. But you typically retain direct control over your character during exploration, so it's easier to see yourself in the role of the hero(s).
SRPGs have another level of abstraction, you feel like a commander directing troops from afar instead of the hero beating up monsters. You typically don't have those direct controls over your characters and the time it takes for an action to happen after you push a button can be quite long. The learning curve can be steep and SRPGs often require the biggest time investment out of those genres.
I'd compare Action games to playing with water guns or playing catch as a kid, JRPGs to classic board or card games that all follow similar rules, SRPGs to D&D or German designer boardgames. Those are all fun things to do, but the more time it takes to learn the rules and have fun doing it, the less people will be drawn to the activity.
Yeah, this is one thing that FE really gets right. It's really easy to grasp, yet has a surprising amount of depth and complexity. Good map and encounter design goes a long way towards making maps fun and challenging, and Intelligent Systems has shown that they're capable of making some of the best maps in the genre.
whether they actually feel like making good maps or not is another story entirely.
I must agree, my friends.
I think the answer to this is simply because they aren't made. Can't sell what isn't in the market. FFT sold over a million on the PS1 in Japan alone. Yet there was never a FFT2 and all subsequent S-E tactical games were on portables. Same with Front Mission.
Valkyria sold well on the PS3 too, yet they went portable and killed the franchise outside of Japan. X-Com does pretty well on PC and consoles as well.
texhnolyze
Banned
This has just released last month and the OT barely reaches 100 posts.
Metacritic score is not so bad either. What's lacking is waifus.
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
Theres 2 misconceptions that ruin it to most people.
1. They are too hard
2. If a guy dies i lose him forever.... but i wont play easy mode because thats cheating.
1. They are too hard
2. If a guy dies i lose him forever.... but i wont play easy mode because thats cheating.
It's sad that FE's gameplay qualities are buried underneath mountains of disgusting fanservice now.
Radiant Dawn was elegant and classy with it's themes and plot, where most of that was thrown out the window with Awakening and beyond.
I heard Echoes isn't as bad though, so maybe I'll try that.
Number 2 makes me laugh but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true for some people.
Putting everything else aside because that argument is destined to end poorly, Echoes is not really what you're looking for if you liked Radiant Dawn. It retains the soul of a very dated game in Gaiden and doesn't really seek to modernize anything other than the presentation and some QoL features. A lot of really simplistic maps with basically no objective variation beyond total routs and nearly terminal pacing. You're welcome to try, of course, but it's a regression in a lot of ways if you're more familiar with the GBA -> GC games.
theprodigy
Member
yeah Echoes just tosses the gameplay instead whoops
shadow2810
Member
Main reason I haven't picked up this game yet is because of the graphic. I don't know how they did it but it looks worse than 3ds games of the same genre.
This has just released last month and the OT barely reaches 100 posts.
Metacritic score is not so bad either. What's lacking is waifus.
I see 3 potential waifus on that cover alone.
I can look past the graphical quality but I can't get over the insanely drab color pallet [and the muddy textures don't help either]. It's like my eyes are trying to reactively close because they weren't sending any information to my brain anyway.
Strategy games are inherently niche, the console audience prefers faster-paced stuff, and for the Japanese entries you're basically looking for a crossover of people who like both strategy games and jrpgs. The closest thing to an recent SRPG designed for broader western appeal is Xcom with its cover-based firefights, classes, level-ups and hit percentages, and even then, despite critical acclaim, poorer shooters sold far more.
SuperChoco
Member
I think they're generally too difficult to sell to a new audience and it's too time consuming for fans of the genre. For the casual audience, the lack of visual flaire and the commonly glacial gameplay in the trailers are a massive turn off. I don't think it's a coincidence that the more popular SRPGs like FFTactics and Fire Emblem have the benefit of being a part of a popular IP or game. For fans of the genre, it can be time consuming to learn a new game entirely, and even longer to "get good" and really get to the nitty gritty of the systems. So it's definitely an inherent problem of the genre, not too different from MOBAs and MMOs; There's an audience out there for them, but there's not enough to get players to play more than few at a time.
If i look at the more "successful" SRPG's I don't see much reliance on Waifus.
Final Fantasy tactics
Disgaea
Xcom
Valkyria Chronicles (the first one)
Jagged Alliance
... I'm drawing blanks at successful SRPG's and now i'm sad.
Honestly, the relationship management aspect of FE could work just as well if it wasn't as focused on pairing people up imo. There's something there that could be genuinley interesting as a counterbalance to the fighting, i don't think IS is there yet.
pretty done
Member
They generally don't excel at many things other than combat and sometimes story. I think lots of people like RPGs for their exploration, on top of good solid combat mechanics.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
srpgs are less popular than final fantasy because they are hard and you can't push A to badass and they don't have epic FMVs where u can do like a flip and it's like tiiiiight
If you think God Wars isn't packed with 'waifus' and whatever the male equivalent is, you haven't played it. I'm about twenty hours in and already the subs bench is packed with young women in combat lingerie. Gameplay and jobs system is solid though, definite callback to FFT.
This has just released last month and the OT barely reaches 100 posts.
Metacritic score is not so bad either. What's lacking is waifus.
Rich Uncle Skeleton
Member
Are we not counting XCOM as an SRPG?
Also, I'm blown away by the number of people in here saying SRPGs are boring. Does "boring" in this case really translate to "requires too much thought"? (In my mind "boring" would mean "requires too little thought.")
Husbandos, the term is husbandos.
I can see picking out slevaria for valkyria but disgaea is pure (well, if i squint).
Regardless, neither series focuses on that and i don't think pushing that aspect would make them more sucessful. Or rather, reach a broader audience.
Elaugaufein
Member
God Wars is very obviously someone's wishlist refinements of FFT with a Japanese flavored skin. There's even the barely disguised dancer and bard classes. I have to say I've enjoyed what I've played so far though. Its not filled with originality but it's a very solid execution of a genre variant you don't see a lot of these days (the Job System with Active Skill Groups/ Passive skill slots ).
I think of sorta depends what's meant by Waifus, which like fanservice is used to mean different things including "stuff that bothers me so it shouldn't exist". Disgaea definitely has both named characters and generics with appearances and personalities designed to appeal to various demographics but they aren't Waifus to me in that there's nothing about them other than that that's directed at the palyer or at the player via a proxy character.