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TreasureHunterG · Nov 16, 2012

Ridley327 said:
EA doing crappy, half-assed launch games is a tale as old as time at this point. Telling EA to fuck off over something that the other hardware manufacturers allow is not wise.

Grizzlyjin said:
You honestly think cutting ties with one of the biggest publishers is wise? That isolationist mentality towards 3rd parties is supposedly the image they're trying to scrub away, no?

It's not wise from EA to water down and half ass their games for Nintendo systems either. It's not only on Wii U, but they did it too on Wii, specially the All-Play bullshit. Now there's the rumor they're on a grudge against Nintendo because of the Origin deal failure are now watering down their games on purpose, if that's the case, it's one more reason to end their relations.

To change this, someone at Nintendo should have the balls to address these issues and demand a mentality change.

Donnie · Nov 16, 2012

shidoshi said:
Get ready to add more games to this list once more embargo dates are up.

I'm sure there will be a negative comment from at least one reviewer for every game, and that they'll be posted as some kind of evidence despite contradiction in other reviews... In reality the only comments that should matter are real comparisons such as Digital Foundry, at least when it comes to this kind of thread.

KageMaru · Nov 16, 2012

TreasureHunterG said:
Iwata should give an ultimatum for EA: take the stuff serious or GTFO.

It....doesn't really work that way. We have no details or idea how the whole arrangement played out. When did Nintendo send them dev kits? Who approached who on this port? How much time and resources was the team given?

Game Analyst said:
This is what happens when games are just ported over; do not take advantage of the GPU, RAM, or how the CPU works.

I can maybe see some of the DSPs (or whatever additional processors they have) may not have been used or used properly, but you think they just leave RAM unused? Really?

IdeaMan · Nov 16, 2012

Van Owen said:
Ideaman throws a bunch of vague shit at the wall and hopes it sticks.

Yes, there will be "next gen" games that are on PS4 and 720, as well as 360 PS3 and Wii U. No shit.

You were always rather respectful with me before, please don't join the other camp with the 3 or 4 angry weirdos jumping to insults and personal attacks

About this topic, if there are technical issues with Mass Effect 3, considering the engine that drive this game, clearly, it's not coming from a lack of power of the system.

Linkup · Nov 16, 2012

Haunted said:
Third parties off to a great start on the new Nintendo console. This time it's gonna be different, you guys.

Wii all over again (with added multiplats during the first year) - the occasional jewel amongst mostly lacklustre support. The bare minimum.

Going to have to agree. Some were saying that there were positive signs, but signs point to an extreme version of last gen. Longer drought, crappy PS3/360 ports, the occasional gem, some Japanese support.

Not to go off topic to much.
It's looking very likely especially if you consider that the handhelds are doing the same thing.

If this all hold true we are looking at more studios closing down and more large merge.

YES, I just derived all that from to weak ports. lol a big IMO.

Ridley327 · Nov 16, 2012

TreasureHunterG said:
It's not wise from EA to water down and half ass their games for Nintendo systems either. It's not only on Wii U, but they did it too on Wii, specially the All-Play bullshit. Now there's the rumor they're on a grudge against Nintendo because of the Origin deal failure are now watering down their games on purpose, if that's the case, it's one more reason to end their relations.

To change this, someone at Nintendo should have the balls to address these issues and demand a mentality change.

"Congrats, Nintendo, you took the moral high road against EA, but now you have the public perception of being even more difficult to work with than previously believed, which in turn poisons the well further for other third-parties. But hey, at least you stuck it to the man!"

There is literally no way for that kind of scenario to end positively for Nintendo.

ozfunghi · Nov 16, 2012

Van Owen said:
Ideaman throws a bunch of vague shit at the wall and hopes it sticks.

Yes, there will be "next gen" games that are on PS4 and 720, as well as 360 PS3 and Wii U. No shit.

Yeah, implying the WiiU would have 2 GB or RAM with an unprecedented large amount reserved for the OS was obviously throwing shit at the wall, hoping it'd stick. You of all people would be wise not to question the posting habits of other users.

Chaplain · Nov 16, 2012

KageMaru said:
I can maybe see some of the DSPs (or whatever additional processors they have) may not have been used or used properly, but you think they just leave RAM unused? Really?

At E3, I talked to a Ubisoft rep at the AC3 station at the Nintendo booth, and he said their port did not use the extra ram. It was a direct port of either the 360 or PS3 code. They were just happy to have the game running on the system.

KageMaru · Nov 16, 2012

IdeaMan said:
You were always correct with me before, please don't join the other camp with the 3 or 4 angry weirdos jumping to insults and personal attacks

About this topic, if there are technical issues with Mass Effect 3, considering the engine that drive this game, clearly, it's not coming from a lack of power of the system.

I don't believe it's due to lack of power but it's odd that Nintendo and Epic didn't work on getting UE3 up to speed on the Wii-U considering how studios can continue to use the engine to make Wii-U exclusives years down the line.

Edit:

Game Analyst said:
At E3, I talked to a Ubisoft rep at the AC3 station at the Nintendo booth, and he said their port did not use the extra ram. It was a direct port of either the 360 or PS3 code. They were just happy to have the game running on the system.

Sorry but I consider reps and such to be the last types of people I talk to regarding the technical make up of a game. If one of the engineers was there, then I'd listen. Even if it's not being used to improve resolutions, effects, textures, etc. more ram can still be used to improve performance.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

ozfunghi said:
Sure. All games? Maybe not. There is also a difference between being capable and actually getting them. Even Wii was able to run ports of certain PS360 games with nothing else but graphics downgraded... but it rarely got them, if ever.

That said, Ideaman said a true next gen game was in the works and i see no reason to no believe him. When he's come out and claim something, he's never been wrong.

Also, you might want to read my take on the performance issues these 3rd party launch ports are having, so you know where i'm coming from. It's one or two pages back. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44408057&postcount=456

I don't know where Ideaman gets his information from but a true next gen game running on a next gen engine will have to be severely gimped graphically to shoehorn it into WiiU.

Realistically. It's not going to happen.

TreasureHunterG · Nov 16, 2012

Ridley327 said:
"Congrats, Nintendo, you took the moral high road against EA, but now you have the public perception of being even more difficult to work with than previously believed, which in turn poisons the well further for other third-parties. But hey, at least you stuck it to the man!"

There is literally no way for that kind of scenario to end positively for Nintendo.

Why asking for 3rd-parties to improve it's efforts for it's console and get more and better quality games is a bad thing and will hurt relations with 3rd-parties? This don't make sense.

Donnie · Nov 16, 2012

KageMaru said:
It....doesn't really work that way. We have no details or idea how the whole arrangement played out. When did Nintendo send them dev kits? Who approached who on this port? How much time and resources was the team given?

I can maybe see some of the DSPs (or whatever additional processors they have) may not have been used or used properly, but you think they just leave RAM unused? Really?

If its a direct port its quite possible to leave extra RAM unused, whether it really is unused is another question.

BlockheadBrown · Nov 16, 2012

KageMaru said:
I don't believe it's due to lack of power but it's odd that Nintendo and Epic didn't work on getting UE3 up to speed on the Wii-U considering how studios can continue to use the engine to make Wii-U exclusives years down the line.

This is why Cliffy B. left...

IdeaMan · Nov 16, 2012

When you read the technical part of this interview, you really understand that the system is built in such a way that you need to learn it (like any other system you could say), use all its specificities, for example to alleviate the burden on the CPU, etc. If they simply "brute-ported" ME3 on Wii U without optimizing their code for the CPU, GPU, taking advantage of the memory layout which seems very well made, then you can have those disappointing results.

ozfunghi · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
I don't know where Ideaman gets his information from but a true next gen game running on a next gen engine will have to be severely gimped graphically to shoehorn it into WiiU.

Realistically. It's not going to happen.

Please stop butchering the actual meaning of words such as "reality" and "realistically". Are you a developer? Are you a developer with experience on both WiiU and PS4/720? Are you a developer working for the studio that is making the game Ideaman is talking about?

No? You don't say. Then refrain from making such statements.

Ridley327 · Nov 16, 2012

TreasureHunterG said:
Why asking for 3rd-parties to improve it's efforts for it's console and get more and better quality games is a bad thing and will hurt relations with 3rd-parties? This don't make sense.

Because EA has proven that they don't have to put in a lot of effort to get games to sell well; hell, they've gone as far as literally changing a couple of logos around and shipping last year's version of a game as the new one on more than a few other non-Nintendo platforms. How would Nintendo benefit from not towing the line that everyone else is regarding EA's general laziness?

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, but the damned if you don't part of it still gets them games on the platform.

SolidSnakex · Nov 16, 2012

Nirolak said:
Well that sounds encouraging.

I'm guessing that BO2 may be another one

aegies said:
You won't see BLOPS 2 Wii U reviews for a while.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44376368&postcount=146

Nirolak · Nov 16, 2012

SolidSnakex said:
I'm guessing that BO2 may be another one

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44376368&postcount=146

Given that the post he quoted speculated reviews would come out on Sunday, this kind of implies they're sending it out on or after release day which um... yeah...

kitsuneyo · Nov 16, 2012

Seems like a case of poor dev team + low resources = shoddy part to me. It's too early to blame WiiU's power.

Makes me wonder what the point of the exercise was though. I mean, the only way a WiiU version was going to succeed was to make it the best version available. Now it's going to be a critical and sales fiasco. Nice work.

i-Lo · Nov 16, 2012

Isn't WiiU, like next gen or something, like very powerful, like years ahead of current gen stuff, like like you know be able to easily run any current gen games at like 1080p60fps?

I keed, I keeeed. Shitty situation btw. Makes me wonder why there is no consumer rights group for gamers to keep companies from charging full price for crappy ports

BlankaBR · Nov 16, 2012

IdeaMan show us the power of your magic baguette and save the infidels from the Wii U graphical capabilities galore

Ridley327 · Nov 16, 2012

Nirolak said:
Given that he post he quoted speculated that reviews would come out on Sunday, this kind of implies they're sending it out on or after release day which um... yeah...

The weird part is CODBLOPS2 was one of the first Wii U games out in the wild; hell, we got in our copies of CODBLOPS2 a few days before anything Nintendo arrived at our store.

prwxv3 · Nov 16, 2012

i-Lo said:
Isn't WiiU, like next gen or something, like very powerful, like years ahead of current gen stuff, like like you know be able to easily run any current gen games at like 1080p60fps?

I keed, I keeeed. Shitty situation btw. Makes me wonder why there is no consumer rights group for gamers to keep companies from charging full price for crappy ports

lol I remember some people saying that all WiiU games would be 1080p

Chaplain · Nov 16, 2012

Do we know if running Mass Effect 3 on the Gamepad, in such a low resolution, gets rid of the technical issues that have been found when the game is running in 720p?

-MB- · Nov 16, 2012

IdeaMan said:
When you read the technical part of this interview, you really understand that the system is built in such a way that you need to learn it (like any other system you could say), use all its specificities, for example to alleviate the burden on the CPU, etc. If they simply "brute-ported" ME3 on Wii U without optimizing their code for the CPU, GPU, taking advantage of the memory layout which seems very well made, then you can have those disappointing results.

So what happened with the "easy to port from 360" mantra that was thrown around after e3 2011?

Jarmel · Nov 16, 2012

Nirolak said:
Given that the post he quoted speculated reviews would come out on Sunday, this kind of implies they're sending it out on or after release day which um... yeah...

Never trust a game that has an embargo past the release date.

jett · Nov 16, 2012

Donnie said:
Or reportedly superior depending on the report, sounds like it comes down to what you're using it for, strengths and weaknesses ect. Also cripple 360 ports?, which crippled ports have we seen?

All/most reports we've got regarding the Wii U's CPU is that it's weaker than the PS3's and the 360's.

Also, please read my post again and notice how I said "I'm guessing". And I suppose I meant crippling them in terms of the Wii U's version being noticeably superior. At one point in time(a long time ago, it seems) I thought PS360 ports to the Wii U would at least run at 60fps and whatnot, seems that's far-fetched now.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

ozfunghi said:
Please stop butchering the actual meaning of words such as "reality" and "realistically". Are you a developer? Are you a developer with experience on both WiiU and PS4/720? Are you a developer working for the studio that is making the game Ideaman is talking about?

No? You don't say. Then refrain from making such statements.

It's not about who's a developer. If the rumoured specs of PS720 are close to being true. The there is a huge performance gap between them and WiiU. Sure you might get ports. But they will have to be extremely paired down to get it to work.

Or do you believe there is some magical 'hidden' power in WiiU that the devs haven't managed to tap into yet?

TreasureHunterG · Nov 16, 2012

Ridley327 said:
Because EA has proven that they don't have to put in a lot of effort to get games to sell well.

Hmm... no. Maybe true to the EA Sports line, but everything else? No.

KageMaru · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
I don't know where Ideaman gets his information from but a true next gen game running on a next gen engine will have to be severely gimped graphically to shoehorn it into WiiU.

Realistically. It's not going to happen.

If you already admit that a downport is possible after scaling the game back, why are you convinced it's not going to happen? I could be wrong, but this posts contradicts itself.

Grizzlyjin · Nov 16, 2012

TreasureHunterG said:
It's not wise from EA to water down and half ass their games for Nintendo systems either. It's not only on Wii U, but they did it too on Wii, specially the All-Play bullshit. Now there's the rumor they're on a grudge against Nintendo because of the Origin deal failure are now watering down their games on purpose, if that's the case, it's one more reason to end their relations.

To change this, someone at Nintendo should have the balls to address this issues and demand a mentality change.

I don't like to indulge in rumors or conjecture whenever possible. But let's look at the facts. PS3 and 360 went in one direction as far as attracting audiences with their console experiences, Nintendo went in another. Sales wise, it wasn't a bad decision. But there had to be some sacrifices. Technically, it couldn't stand up with the other consoles so it offered a completely different way to play. Stuff had to be watered down before, it was better than getting nothing at all. It was something that matched up with the demographics of the system and would jive with the philosophy of what Nintendo wanted. It's not like the technology didn't exist when the original Wii launched, it would have added to the cost but they could have had an HD console that also had motion controls. But that isn't what they wanted, yet..

Looking around at the Wii U launch, the whole thing feels rushed to me. So I don't really know if you can blame the developers if they didn't have much time to learn how to make things work on a brand new console they have zero experience with. But do you honestly believe that pushing EA away would strengthen the future of the system? No Madden? No Mass Effect? No Dragon Age? No Dead Space? No Need for Speed? Other publishers aren't stupid, I wouldn't be surprised if others followed EA out the door if they saw them leave. Being hostile towards them just sounds like another 6+ years of having a console that is a barren wasteland for third part developers. The Nintendo exclusive franchises are nice, but I'm not down for another system that echoes the Wii generation. Lack of true 3rd party support and very spread out exclusive releases.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

Nirolak said:
Given that the post he quoted speculated reviews would come out on Sunday, this kind of implies they're sending it out on or after release day which um... yeah...

Really. That's pretty bad. I haven't got a good feeling about that.

dark10x · Nov 16, 2012

Durante said:
Forced MSAA, downsampling, SGSSAA, depending on what's available. And combinations thereof. Unlike you, I don't really mind most games fluctuating around the 45 FPS mark with triple buffering -- I still much prefer that to bad IQ. At worst, I'll use FXAA rather than going down in resolution from 2560x1440 (which is in itself a huge IQ boon).

The most wonderful thing recently is Dishonored, which I can run at 2560x1440 with 4xSGSSAA. That's around the point where I'd consider IQ "good enough".

Ah, I see.

My tolerance for framerate dips is very low. I CAN deal with a locked 30 fps, but pulling that off on the PC is hit or miss depending on the game. I always prefer 60.

For me, image quality is the very first thing I will sacrifice.

Of course, part of this stems from the fact that I play PC games on a 50" Kuro plasma from about 7ft away. Image quality becomes more important when I use my 27" PC monitor viewed from close proximity. I hate LCDs for gaming, though, so I tend to avoid doing that.

Do we know if running Mass Effect 3 on the Gamepad, in such a low resolution, gets rid of the technical issues that have been found when the game is running in 720p?

We don't.

If the system actually does send a lower resolution image to the gamepad (rather than simply downscaling) it really could help. There are a number of PS360 titles that benefit greatly from dropping resolution, for instance. All depends on how the game handles such things.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

KageMaru said:
If you already admit that a downport is possible after scaling the game back, why are you convinced it's not going to happen? I could be wrong, but this posts contradicts itself.

In theory you can port a PS720 game to a C64. Just how much would you have to cut, change etc... How much of the essence of the game would remain.

Chaplain · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
Or do you believe there is some magical 'hidden' power in WiiU that the devs haven't managed to tap into yet?

If I may chime in on your conversation. I think Kojima's explanation of how developers handle new hardware answers your question:

“You make your first game with a lot of difficulty, beginning before the hardware is finalized. When you move on to the next, you’re able to achieve things you couldn’t in the first title; tech advances on the software side rather than the hardware.”

link

King_Moc · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
LOL. I did laugh.

I've still got ME2 on PC I've not tried yet. Got it in a Steam sale and I'm a bit frightened to give it a go considering what I've heard about it.

As long as you don't go into it expecting an RPG, you'll probably enjoy it.

I spent much of the game frustrated they they'd fixed what was wrong with the first one, but also forgotten what was great about it.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

Game Analyst said:
If I may chime in on your conversation. I think Kojima's explanation of how developers handle new hardware answers your question:

Thanks. I understand the technical issues. I'm just at this point extremely underwhelmed that a next gen hardware can't handle a current gen port without performance issues.

Ridley327 · Nov 16, 2012

TreasureHunterG said:
Hmm... no. Maybe true to the EA Sports line, but everything else? No.

I don't see how EA Sports titles don't count towards what I'm talking about, seeing as they're the most successful games in EA's repertoire. I mean, the Vita desperately needs great new content, and all EA can muster up is repackaging their launch title by putting a 13 on it.

You don't see how it'd be an issue when Sony is OK with the practice on a platform in the most dire need of that not happening? It's a fucked-up system, no doubt, but that's how the world spins, and it's not going to change unless everyone says no. Nintendo wouldn't set a world-changing precedent by doing what you're proposing; all they'd be doing is proving the critics right.

cyberheater · Nov 16, 2012

King_Moc said:
As long as you don't go into it expecting an RPG, you'll probably enjoy it.

I spent much of the game frustrated they they'd fixed what was wrong with the first one, but also forgotten what was great about it.

Thanks. It gives me a fair indication of what to expect.

IdeaMan · Nov 16, 2012

-MB- said:
So what happened with the "easy to port from 360" mantra that was thrown around after e3 2011?

There are many scenarios, like the Wii U dev kits around e3 2011 (supposedly the v1) being rather close to Xbox360 (i think we've heard something about that), and during this last year, the real & tailored for & optimized components were implemented on later dev kits, and as a result it's pushing developer to better adjust their project, it could originates from programming/software/middleware/sdk issues, it could have been PR talk back in the days, etc.

brandonh83 · Nov 16, 2012

Honestly Ninja Gaiden 3 bugged me just from the demo-- not the gameplay, or the graphics-- but rather how absurdly silly all the enemy cursing was. It's what turned me off from Dishonored as well. Maybe that's not a big deal to some people and I curse myself quite a bit, but games where there's so much of it in an attempt to be "cool" to brats in middle school turns me off in a big way.

I'm not saying bad language is tasteful, but there are more tasteful ways it can be used other than the way it is in those games.

Plinko · Nov 16, 2012

Game Analyst said:
If I may chime in on your conversation. I think Kojima's explanation of how developers handle new hardware answers your question:

Exactly, which is why I'm not entirely sure why people are surprised at this. Also, didn't EA complain about how short a time they've actually had dev kits?

AzaK · Nov 16, 2012

MadeInBeats said:
Was thinking about getting this but the cocky price point coupled with Trilogy announcement, and now sloppy coding, I'm gonna give this a Straight Right hook to the bargain bin.

EA will eventually hang themselves and have to barter favour, it's a matter of time.

It was on my radar too but trilogy, price and this has ensured I don't.

Nirolak said:
Well that sounds encouraging.

Should he know something?

BlankaBR said:
IdeaMan show us the power of your magic baguette and save the infidels from the Wii U graphical capabilities galore

He's done that a lot for months. It's just that some people won't shut up.

Pineconn · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
Thanks. I understand the technical issues. I'm just at this point extremely underwhelmed that a next gen hardware can't handle a current gen port without performance issues.

I'm sure it has a lot to do with the ability or ineptitude of the developer.

Always-honest · Nov 16, 2012

Just don't buy the shitty ports. Reward good ports by buying them.
Plenty of good games out there.

dark10x · Nov 16, 2012

It's what turned me off from Dishonored as well. Maybe that's not a big deal to some people and I curse myself quite a bit, but games where there's so much of it in an attempt to be "cool" to brats in middle school turns me off in a big way.

Wait...Dishonored did this? I can't recall any cursing in the game. :\

Clay Davis · Nov 16, 2012

the slowdown in ninja gaiden 3 sounds awfully reminiscent of the staircase sequence in ninja gaiden 2. I really hope they don't end up patching it out as they did in 2.

such an amazing visual experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o34ZgIe-rp0

Chaplain · Nov 16, 2012

cyberheater said:
Thanks. I understand the technical issues. I'm just at this point extremely underwhelmed that a next gen hardware can't handle a current gen port without performance issues.

I agree and I am disappointed as well. But what helps me come to terms with this is that the CPU is different than the 360 one. So, this means, just like on PS2, only developers who take their time to learn how to code on this CPU will be able to make games that are above what we currently have. How many are actually going to do this? It all depends if they can make Money on the Wii U.

BurnOutBrighter · Nov 16, 2012

Haunted said:
People seriously advising Nintendo to tell off EA show a hilarious disregard for both industry history and the current situation. Short-sighted, childish, delusional.

You're kinda right. Nintendo shouldn't bite the hand that feeds... even if they get the worst scraps from the table, thrown on to the floor.

brandonh83 · Nov 16, 2012

Always-honest said:
Just don't buy the shitty ports. Reward good ports by buying them.
Plenty of good games out there.

Yep, I'm still waiting to hear about Assassin's 3 or Black Ops II, but I'm thinking I'm going to be switching one of those preorders over to Scribblenauts or hell, maybe even an eshop card. I already cancelled my Assassin's 3, and I'm starting to lose faith in Black Ops II being a good port.

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