Reminds me of the Monsanto GM "Round Up Ready" soybean case.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
DICE: Anti Used System 'can be a win and a loss'.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
Reminds me of the Monsanto GM "Round Up Ready" soybean case.
Woo-Fu
Banned
It really doesn't matter what you compare it to or what your side of the argument is.
You have publishers and developers who aren't making enough money and one of the obvious places they're losing potential income is the used market.
You're arguing the how and the why when neither of those matter or can be changed to remedy what the publishers and/or developers rightly see as a problem.
What I find particularly entertaining is that the people who argue that videogames are no different than any other product and don't need to be treated differently are often playing games whose economy proves how wrong they are.
Why do MMOs move towards bind-on-pickup, bind-on-equip, and item degradation? Because if they don't their economies tank when supply > demand. They have to build systems that take these items out of the economy at a similar rate to how they're introduced or nothing retains any value.
Videogames are not only just like those items---no wear, easily transferred---they're also ridiculously easy to dupe and the duplicates are perfect copies. What do easy dupe exploits do to a game's economy? I think everybody who has played those games know the answer to that.
Digital items that can be perfectly reproduced are different than physical items that suffer wear and tear and can't be duplicated with the press of the button. Unfortunately there is no solution. With a physical product you'd raise your unit price until had the margins you required to sustain business. You do that with games you just increase the incentive to buy used and/or pirate, leaving you back where you started.
That leaves only 2 options, attempt to reduce used sales/piracy, or stop making games. That is exactly what you're witnessing.
You have publishers and developers who aren't making enough money and one of the obvious places they're losing potential income is the used market.
You're arguing the how and the why when neither of those matter or can be changed to remedy what the publishers and/or developers rightly see as a problem.
What I find particularly entertaining is that the people who argue that videogames are no different than any other product and don't need to be treated differently are often playing games whose economy proves how wrong they are.
Why do MMOs move towards bind-on-pickup, bind-on-equip, and item degradation? Because if they don't their economies tank when supply > demand. They have to build systems that take these items out of the economy at a similar rate to how they're introduced or nothing retains any value.
Videogames are not only just like those items---no wear, easily transferred---they're also ridiculously easy to dupe and the duplicates are perfect copies. What do easy dupe exploits do to a game's economy? I think everybody who has played those games know the answer to that.
Digital items that can be perfectly reproduced are different than physical items that suffer wear and tear and can't be duplicated with the press of the button. Unfortunately there is no solution. With a physical product you'd raise your unit price until had the margins you required to sustain business. You do that with games you just increase the incentive to buy used and/or pirate, leaving you back where you started.
That leaves only 2 options, attempt to reduce used sales/piracy, or stop making games. That is exactly what you're witnessing.
Want to know why? Steam. Steam is very pro-consumer. Prices on PC games are almost always lower than console ones and have more replayability thanks to essentially FREE dlc, among other things. Are you going to trust Sony and MS will be like Steam? You know, the guys who charge $10 to change your username, hide already paid services like netflix behind a paywall, and deny people access to downloadable games they purchased?
Steam took a situation and made it better for us. PC gaming was on the decline for years before they stepped in.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
You buy 1 game. The publisher gets X amount of dollars because of it.
You sell that 1 game. Someone who would of bought the game new instead buys the game you sold because it is $5 cheaper. The publisher loses X amount of dollars.
You take the credit you received and buy 1 game. The publisher gets X amount of dollars.
The publisher is now in the same exact place it started when you bought the first game.
I agree with you here. All I said was that used sales - however small a problem - are a problem. I never said the way they were addressing the problem was a good. I agree lowering prices would probably be a much better way to combat used sales.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
The game prices haven't really changed for years. What are you talking about?
And please, please, please don't compare the game industry with the car industry. The comparrison couldn't be more pointless. I give you a hint: Car makers don't make the big money with car sales. Think about it.
I actually didn't know that, never seen used copies anywhere. Did a quick google search but didn't see anything that looked immediately legit. So you've got me there.
But I don't consider movies as software, or at least in the same class. I consider them to be like photos, merely data that is opened by specific software. I guess games could be argued to be 'opened' by your OS and drivers etc etc but I just don't see them the same.
clutch.as.it.gets.
Member
That´s flat out bold.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
And it was always a problem that was latent until this gen. And all I was saying is that no other industry has a problem with used sales and they don't blame used sales, just used the car industry as example.
Agreed. The arguement that reselling of other products is fine, so games should too isn't very strong imo. Why did Windows, anti virus programs, photoshop etc turn into lincenses for 1 or x computers? Because copying, reselling, lending etc hurt their business. They decided to remedy that. If the gaming industry decides to remedy used game sales, they are in their right. If you know in advance that buying a game is a lincense for your console/pc. Then you either deal with it, or don't buy it.
I have a feeling the gaming industry in turn will find out used games wasn't the only problem, the insane prices were aswell. But that's another story.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
So what... We are discussing about 10 bucks you save when you buy on Steam? Are you joking? Of course Microsoft and Sony want a slice. They are selling you consoles for prices lower than their value. I don't see Vavle giving away PC....
And how do you know that the DLC madness would continue if anti used was invented?
And btw.: Valve offers stupid DLC for $$ for their games too.
If used games didn't exist I may have not purchased that 1 game. You are also assuming that someone will always buy my used game. Ever been to a gamestop? Mine used to have the same bin of xbox, ps2, and gamecube games for years until they were essentially giving them away for free.
Forsaken82
Member
Do you always use that money, say from a CoD game to buy the next CoD game? The resale won't always go back into the same company so it is sort of a moot point.
MMaRsu
Banned
Good, then I wont buy any of that and I hope they go out of business instead.
Not the resale but the money he would get from the second hand sale he made. So he wouldnt be able to buy a new game from that money.
Thousands of people do this.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Of course it wasn't that much of a problem during the older gens. Internet wasn't what it is today and stores like Gamespot didn't make so much money with used games. How can you even compare? When I was a teenager the only way to get used games was to get them from my friends. Look at what's going on today? You can get heaps of games for little money. God, why am I not in school today. Back in the days I was struggling for months to scratch a few bucks together to buy a new game....
All of this would be worthwhile if game revenue over the past decade was on a downward trend.
Hint: It isn't. The financial failures within the industry aren't from a lack of revenue coming in, they're from poor budgeting decisions.
Or a crazy third option called "make games you can afford to and set achievable sales goals." The entire AAA-based "blockbuster or bust" system the industry is currently structured around is unsustainable.
DiscoJer
Member
I think this is going to be a big mistake for the industry.
It's a lot like used car games - when people trade in their old cars, it's often towards the purchase of newer ones.
Same thing here. And yes, some people always buy used, but that's likely because they can't afford full price games - are they going to be running to buy games for more money? Or will they simply be finding another hobby? Or waiting til games are on sale?
It's a lot like used car games - when people trade in their old cars, it's often towards the purchase of newer ones.
Same thing here. And yes, some people always buy used, but that's likely because they can't afford full price games - are they going to be running to buy games for more money? Or will they simply be finding another hobby? Or waiting til games are on sale?
They haven't shown that we're getting any benefit from them emulating this part of the PC side. Steam didn't even introduce the single use idea. They just made it easier and cheaper for the consumers.
?@bolded. Do you mean when I mentioned Sony yanking downloadable games? I believe they did so to prevent piracy... but they never refunded or patched and rereleased those games as far as I know. They just pulled them from the marketplace.
Yes, Valve offers DLC... but you still have the option of playing community DLC hence better replayability.
sublimit
Banned
They'll say "sorry but we can't lower the price of our games because costs have really rose this gen."So we'll end up paying even more than we are now and we'll also loose the ability to get some of our money back if we end up don't liking the game.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I was thinking more about that publishers didn't need much sales to make a profit since games were way more cheap to make.
That's what I believe also. I'm pretty sure they've all had conversations off the record with one another about this. All of their bottom lines are impacted by used games sales and the only way for the system to work completely is for them all to do it.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Well still you had to buy one game initially without credit from selling another game. Doesn't matter how many iterations of my explanation you go through.
And yes I am making a lot of assumptions but the point was more for the sake of providing a counter argument rather than because I believed it to be the case 100% of the time. Other assumptions that you didn't even mention is that I'm assuming if someone does buy the game then the market price for the new game is still the same as when you bought it, and that the person buying the game actually would of bought the game at the higher new price if no used copies were available.
MMaRsu
Banned
Ofcourse they are going to wait till the games hits clearance prices, and/or stop playing games altogether.
Quotes a post about games for $60.
Mentions Steam.
People buy games on Steam for full retail?
Putting the success of your new IP on whether your first game sells enough used copies to garner hype for the sequel is bad business.
Version 3.0
Member
If I buy their game new, I'm not their customer, either. The retailer is their customer. I'm the retailer's customer.
Palette Swap
Member
Just for kicks (from Eurogamer):
Once again, if the dev/pubs hate these channels so much:
a) They could stop helping them with absurd retailer exclusives
b) They could stop using them altogether
The fact that they haven't done either yet illustrates a greedy double standard.
I'm writing all this as someone who never buys a game used / sell their games and tends to buy digital copies whenever possible.
They wouldn't be enjoying these sky-high figures without the particular ecosystem they're complaining about. In that case, it directly profited their competitor but the point still stands that the used games system helps sustain a crowded and derivative market with an all too often unhealthy break-even threshold.
Once again, if the dev/pubs hate these channels so much:
a) They could stop helping them with absurd retailer exclusives
b) They could stop using them altogether
The fact that they haven't done either yet illustrates a greedy double standard.
I'm writing all this as someone who never buys a game used / sell their games and tends to buy digital copies whenever possible.
For some reason, I've never seen a writer describe people who buy their books second hand as "not their readers".
Did the PC modding community die out somehow?
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The future is digital distribution, so this controversy is simply going to go away in time.
No more boxed product sold at retail, no more used games to argue over.
I strongly suspect that retail titles are already a minority in terms of overall volume hitting the market each week -even excluding smartphone sales-, and the balance is only going to slip further in favour of digital as time goes by.
The reality is that we're all largely attached to the digital "nipple" already; no net-connection means no patches, expansions, multiplayer, network and media-streaming services etc. So switching fully to digital distribution as the standard is inevitable at least in territories where the infrastructure and demographics are up to snuff. And for those nations that can't yet handle it, there's always region coding to lock-out the grey market.
What people seem to be forgetting is that publishers simply need A method to distribute their product. Retail's only trump-card is effectiveness; and if that is seen no longer to be the case then it will simply be cut out of the equation.
And the important thing is this doesn't need to be accomplished in a single stroke. I'm talking about an incremental reduction in the range of titles sold at retail over a period of years.
This is happening already. The controversy over used-sales is merely hastening the process.
No more boxed product sold at retail, no more used games to argue over.
I strongly suspect that retail titles are already a minority in terms of overall volume hitting the market each week -even excluding smartphone sales-, and the balance is only going to slip further in favour of digital as time goes by.
The reality is that we're all largely attached to the digital "nipple" already; no net-connection means no patches, expansions, multiplayer, network and media-streaming services etc. So switching fully to digital distribution as the standard is inevitable at least in territories where the infrastructure and demographics are up to snuff. And for those nations that can't yet handle it, there's always region coding to lock-out the grey market.
What people seem to be forgetting is that publishers simply need A method to distribute their product. Retail's only trump-card is effectiveness; and if that is seen no longer to be the case then it will simply be cut out of the equation.
And the important thing is this doesn't need to be accomplished in a single stroke. I'm talking about an incremental reduction in the range of titles sold at retail over a period of years.
This is happening already. The controversy over used-sales is merely hastening the process.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Of course they were cheaper to make. But what do you want? The industry do stagnate? I sure don't. What should be the benefit of that? Games are supposed to evolve. Like any other industry. But thanks to the used games stuff I don't see that happening as fast as it could. I mean, yes, the industry does grow day by day but it's sooooo much easier to sell you game than it has been in any other console generation before. I don't see how so little people here understand that.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Well, I do see a lot of people mentioning that they are preloading their games. So I guess they must be paying the full retail price, don't they?
If the "no used game" consoles are produced, it means every game you purchase must be a slam-dunk, an absolute keeper. How many games produced this console cycle would you want to keep forever?
I will likely say no thank you to a console that will not play used games. But if I buckle and buy in, the days of me making an impulse purchase on a game will be gone forever. I won't take any risks on games, I will be most likely to ignore titles from smaller developers, and I won't stray from genres I am most familiar/comfortable with. The sad likelihood is that I will ignore games that can be completed in less than 10 hours, too, (even though I know game length does not equal quality) and will steer clear of offerings that only offer a single-player component.
I will likely say no thank you to a console that will not play used games. But if I buckle and buy in, the days of me making an impulse purchase on a game will be gone forever. I won't take any risks on games, I will be most likely to ignore titles from smaller developers, and I won't stray from genres I am most familiar/comfortable with. The sad likelihood is that I will ignore games that can be completed in less than 10 hours, too, (even though I know game length does not equal quality) and will steer clear of offerings that only offer a single-player component.
papersleeves
Member
It's just never enough. Day one DLC, piracy blaming, online pass, pre-order exclusive items, and now this.
Can't wait to see this huge fuck up live in all its glory. The only way I see this shit working out is to mimic iTunes and Steam and going DD with good pricing and sales.
Let it make this clear right now. If they add this anti-consumer policy in next-gen consoles, then I won't be buying one at all. I'll game on PC for cheap prices, F2P, and amazing sales. I will keep hunting down rare and cheap games on Ebay, adding more games to my collection, and they will fuck off. They won't get my money. They will fuck off. My only hope is that a huge number of people do the exact same, as in boycotting this shit. I will be in such a state that I will enjoy seeing them crashing like the evil greedy bastards that they are, and I will not give a single fuck about the collateral damage it could cause.
Those fucks are slowly but surely turning me into a monster with all this shit. The one hobby I've loved for years is the same I despise and been cynical about the most today.
Can't wait to see this huge fuck up live in all its glory. The only way I see this shit working out is to mimic iTunes and Steam and going DD with good pricing and sales.
Let it make this clear right now. If they add this anti-consumer policy in next-gen consoles, then I won't be buying one at all. I'll game on PC for cheap prices, F2P, and amazing sales. I will keep hunting down rare and cheap games on Ebay, adding more games to my collection, and they will fuck off. They won't get my money. They will fuck off. My only hope is that a huge number of people do the exact same, as in boycotting this shit. I will be in such a state that I will enjoy seeing them crashing like the evil greedy bastards that they are, and I will not give a single fuck about the collateral damage it could cause.
Those fucks are slowly but surely turning me into a monster with all this shit. The one hobby I've loved for years is the same I despise and been cynical about the most today.
Seriously I am out next gen. It is going to crash so hard heads are going to spin and fingers will be pointed at all the wrong people. Let it burn, one glorious bonfire, burn baby burn!
And you better hope and pray your console you registered the game to never dies and lives forever or the servers are never taken down.
And you better hope and pray your console you registered the game to never dies and lives forever or the servers are never taken down.
This argument is like politicians telling us how we will all be better off if they raise taxes. I don't buy that BS either. The publishers may see a short term gain and be able to balance their budgets for another year or maybe halfway through another gen but eventually they will be right back to where they are now, spending too much money on a product that doesn't sell as well as their rosy forecasts. From what I can see most of the true innovation is coming from low budget indie games, not big publishers anyway.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Fix BF3 and then talk about anti-used system. Seriously, they broke the fucking game.
modding and actual, developer made DLC are... I don't know, not same? Contact me again when Skyrim and batman DLC are available for free for PC.
Bring up your rebuttals with them, they're the ones that said it (back when BC2 or BF3 came out IIRC). DICE still views new licensees as customers (whether you buy their licenses from EA or a third party retailer). DICE does not view users with transfered licenses as customers.
Someone who reads the writer's books, but does not pay, is not their customer.
Yeah can't believe the game had more destruction in Alpha Testing than almost 6 months after release.
papersleeves
Member
I'll take a seat right next to you and then we'll have a drink or two.
When your employer/parent company treats you negatively how can see customers as anything but the enemy?
corporate cheerleader
Member
Is that seat used or new? This is important.
When I said "essentially free dlc" I was implying the modding community. If every dlc was of the quality of TES series then you'd have a point but it doesn't take a lot of searching to find examples of terrible dlc that's even worse than what you'd get on PC for free.
Just two years ago I would have never thought I would only be looking forward to the new Nintendo console and handhelds. I would have never fucking believed it, but its true at this point. I can't believe i'm saying it but the Wii-U is my last hope for gaming into next gen.
If not screw it, I got enough backlog on my PS3 alone and will make do between the Vita and 3DS.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Well, lets see how Nintendo will handle the HD Gen and the increasing budgets. You know, up to this point they didn't make any HD games. Hope you didn't forget that. That's probably also the reason why they haven't said anything so far.
Lets see if they have the balls to pull off a liveless Hyrule like in TP with HD graphics. Because if not, the costs will be rising.
Similar threads
- Locked