Apathy is death, bro. Apathy is death.
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Late to the Crappy: KOTOR 1&2
- Thread starter Dice
- Start date
Apathy is death, bro. Apathy is death.
Yeah. I didn't have a gaming PC or Xbox 1 so I had to wait until I had a 360.
Well, then it's simply not for you. I'm not head over heels over them combat either. You could make the argument that it isn't for anyone, but then you're opening a whole other can of worms not actually worth discussing because it's unlikely to illuminate anything interesting. In other words: so some people like to wear yellow jeans. Reprehensible.
It is what it is, the missing link between Infinity Engine D&D combat to Dragon Age 2. Now that was some proper action, eh? And there was Mass Effect as well, yeah. Arguably the more successful evolution, in the second iteration at least.
Xbox owner and that is how I experienced it.
Oh Derrick, that awful software emulating BC for 360....
How was that even playable?
If you don't fail those wisdom checks, she's the least bitchy character of the entire cast. Really. Compare a wisdom+ playthrough talking to Kreia with talking to Atton, or Handmaiden, or Visas etc. They bristle with defensiveness much more quickly - and partly because of that, they don't get along as well with her (save for Visas, but she's more neutral than anything).
FWIW I played it on release and thought it was quite boring myself. It was quite a large step down from the Baldur's Gate games and I could never get over that. Totally boring quests and combat. I definitely see where the OP is coming from.
I guess the plot twist and full VA was cool at the time, but on my first play through I dropped the game before that so I didn't get to see the former until like a year or so later when I gave it another shot, lol.
All this said, I can't agree on hating Kreia. It was a few years since I went through TSL but she and the more interesting takes on what the force can and can not do worked great for me at the time. Should go through it again some time soon.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
What do you mean by this? I haven't seen [Wisdom] options with her, and with the ridiculous ineffectiveness of some force powers, it is starting to seem (by what some of you say) like I need to try an 18WIS run, and probably pure light side to avoid how shitty/narrow their progression system is.
Just because you say it is stupid and bad does not make it so. The nuance of the argument is irrelevant, it is the inherent metric of the response which matters and what Kreia exists (partly) to undermine.
The "gimmick" here not only disparages the simple good/bad dichotomy WRPGs use for their morality system, but also the lore upon which the Sith and Jedi are built. Kreia breaks away from conventional Star Wars characterizations to deliver a multi-faceted focus for the rest of the KotOR cast to play off of. And Kreia does all this - assumes various roles throughout the story - while staying true to her theme (betrayal) and motive
(destroying the Force)
Additionally, player experience was not "sacrificed" in any way by Kreia, given that the Influence system complemented the morality system, to great effect in my opinion. Players were rewarded for paying attention to the story and personalities of the characters. Also, there were wisdom, persuade, intimidation, etc checks in dialog.
prag16
Banned
Reading this thread is making me want to go back and play these games again...
KOTOR 1 is easily in my top 5 all-time. I played it on PC when it came out, and again around 5 years ago. It didn't age GREAT, but was still an awesome game.
KOTOR 2 was a tragedy in that it had the potential to be even better than KOTOR 1 in almost every way. But the bugs, rushjob, non-ending, etc.... And even then it is one of my favorite games (not top 5 like KOTOR 1, but close). But it could've been absolutely incredible... so many things were awesome ideas and kinda fell by the wayside due to the unfinished nature of the experience.
The storytelling is great. The twist in KOTOR1 is great (didn't see it coming back in the day; didn't know there was going to be a twist; had seen no spoilers; etc). The scene on the star forge with Bastila before the final confrontation gave me chills. The combat was okay (not great). Certainly not broken like the TC claims; not sure what he was doing..
Man. Love these games. I was *livid* when Bioware did a MMORPG instead of a proper KOTOR3 (played TOR enough to get through the main story and that was it... not nearly as good...).
Maybe now is a good time to try to check out the content restoration mod for KOTOR2 which I haven't done yet.
KOTOR 1 is easily in my top 5 all-time. I played it on PC when it came out, and again around 5 years ago. It didn't age GREAT, but was still an awesome game.
KOTOR 2 was a tragedy in that it had the potential to be even better than KOTOR 1 in almost every way. But the bugs, rushjob, non-ending, etc.... And even then it is one of my favorite games (not top 5 like KOTOR 1, but close). But it could've been absolutely incredible... so many things were awesome ideas and kinda fell by the wayside due to the unfinished nature of the experience.
The storytelling is great. The twist in KOTOR1 is great (didn't see it coming back in the day; didn't know there was going to be a twist; had seen no spoilers; etc). The scene on the star forge with Bastila before the final confrontation gave me chills. The combat was okay (not great). Certainly not broken like the TC claims; not sure what he was doing..
Man. Love these games. I was *livid* when Bioware did a MMORPG instead of a proper KOTOR3 (played TOR enough to get through the main story and that was it... not nearly as good...).
Maybe now is a good time to try to check out the content restoration mod for KOTOR2 which I haven't done yet.
Charisma affects bonuses towards light and dark side power usage. It's a shame you can't use certain restricted powers such as force heal if you're going dark side etc but neither side has large advantages over the other. (And if I'm off on what you use and can't use depending on your alignment, correct me. It's been awhile).
Yeah, but she knows more than everyone on the ship combined. Cut her a little slack. Again, she's definitely not condescending towards characters with high wisdom who can match her wits. Towards "simpletons" she's pretty keen and that's a feature of her character. You're brushing over the character flaws of other NPCs a bit too much, but she's most present in the game and thus a continual dialogue landmine for those who wanted to be pure fighters. I see what you mean.
Jolee's sometimes a better example to follow. He's crusty and agitated, sometimes mirroring Kreia's soothsaying comeuppance, but he veers towards a lusty light-sider. That quality gelled with me and probably a lot of other KOTOR players. He's easier to get along with by a good margin.
The other points you mentioned I would almost completely agree with. The light/dark side options can get awfully comical and there's basically zero advantage to playing neutral throughout KOTOR. There is one perk to staying neutral in KOTOR 2, but it's only for story benefits. The Mass Effect games didn't change this formula much, though, and they generally gave you fewer options with which to solve a conflict: mean or righteous. The renegade quips in the latter two entries were a little more believable, though, yes.
Deus Ex (a game then 3 years older) and Bloodlines (released one year after) don't eclipse the KOTOR games in terms of presentation. I think more could have been done with the cutscenes and you see this grow quite a bit in the Mass Effect games, but those were half a decade out, and thus are extremely unfair comparisons.
Kreia's behind-your-back conversations, Malak's entrance, the Jedi academy training... Those were bad presentation?
Why do some people have to come up with some bullshit 'theory' whenever they dont like something everybody else does?
I don't care if the OP likes the game or not. I just don't understand how comparing games that are sewn from the same thread makes any sense.
Mass Effect does it better. Um.. Yeah cause Mass Effect is successor of these game principals.
That's like complaining about something in the first Mario game and then comparing it to Mario Galaxy.
Mass Effect does it better. Um.. Yeah cause Mass Effect is successor of these game principals.
That's like complaining about something in the first Mario game and then comparing it to Mario Galaxy.
I thought you were going to say the old republic.
For the record, I would have laughed really hard.
Felix Lighter
Member
Never mind.
Well, I think the expectations he puts on the combat mechanics is his fault, everything else is kinda up in the air.
18 is usually what I start with on KOTOR 2, yeah. It's kind of in the vein of playing Malkavian in Bloodlines but doesn't change the experience quite as much. With dark side powers I want to say I went with... Drain life at level 9, not a good replacement for force heal, but it's something. In KOTOR 2 the dark side powers become considerably more powerful at higher levels; with light your best damage dealer is force push, and dark has force storm (Palpatine's raison d'etre). Trey's right, that shit is broken towards the end.
I never felt either to be particularly deficient in the first or second game since your party should round out your weaknesses.
The difference is that SMB (not to mention SMB3, SMW and YI) stands the test of time, despite the existence of Galaxy (and NSMB).
I enjoyed KotOR greatly, but it's aged very poorly (and combat was garbage even back in 2003).
Well, I was going to respond to Jarmel but you basically said everything I was going to.
Well, the prequels are Star Wars writing so...
I don't think this is entirely true. There are always going to be some things that will improve with time/technology. Deus Ex is considered one of the best RPGs but it's voice acting is atrocious. Likewise, KotOR has some game mechanics and controls that just won't compare on a technical level to later releases. One of the OPs gripes is the 'spectacle' of these games aren't as good as modern ones which, given the graphic and programing constraints of the time, is kind of a stupid statement to make. It's like complaining that black and white films aren't as good looking as modern films.
Just because it hasn't aged well doesn't mean it's garbage.
It's aged! - Yes you are correct.
I don't like it! - Ok that is fine.
It's garage and liking it is wrong. - Hmmmm
And isn't it fair to say that it is possible that the more complex a game is the more likely it may age poorly? So much of the game was dependent on visuals and how the player interacted with everything in the game. And all those features have evolved way past what these games offered.
Synth_floyd
Banned
I remember playing through abotu half of KOTOR 1 on the Xbox. It was ok. It just felt like they wanted to do Baldur's Gate in sci-fi. And then later when they made Mass Effect it was like they wanted to make Baldur's gate, in sci-fi and without a costly license.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
It's not a semantic argument when "rounds" and "turns" don't mean the same thing.
I wouldn't conflate visuals with complexity. There are numerous tactical, strategic, and fighting games games dating back to 1990s indisputably much more mechanically complex than KotOR that have aged better. Your own example -- that of Super Mario Bros. -- is a game tremendously more playable today than KotOR ever was.
In sum, KotOR was big on spectacle and short on gameplay. The bar on spectacle is constantly being raised -- the bar for gameplay, not so much.
KojiKnight
Member
I agree mostly with KoTOR 1... 2 actually had a lot of refinements in gameplay, including not making you wait nearly half the game to be a badass Jedi. The story in 2 also blew 1 away big time... if it wasn't for how horribly buggy it was it could really have been amongst my favorite RPGs, but it still tops my favorite Star Wars games.
Here's hoping Obsidian succeeds in making a new SW RPG!
Here's hoping Obsidian succeeds in making a new SW RPG!
this is what happens when you play older games and not dota 2 with us dice
Con get sonic racing
arglebargle
Member
i finished kotor 1 for the first time a few weeks ago, as i am on a quest to go back and play a lot of crpgs i had previously missed. i am not a star wars fan, so i cant comment on how well it represents the franchise or anything but i liked it a lot. many of the characters are really interesting. i had complained about the black and white decision making in mass effect, but seems to me it works better when the force has light and dark sides (though again, i know nothing about the subtleties here).
it does have the distinction of being the only game in history where saving health packs all game paid off
but it may say something about the balance of the game.
it does have the distinction of being the only game in history where saving health packs all game paid off
i guess i built a shitty main character. i was walking through the entire game, clearing rooms with my force powers easily, but had nothing to really damage the final boss or kill the guys he sucks life from. so i basically alternated between attacking him and taking a med pack until he fell. tedious and possibly my fault
I played KOTOR way back when it was released, and about 20 hours of KOTOR 2. Found both of them pretty average and straight up boring at times. But I'm no big fan of Star Wars either, so that probably didn't help.
Perhaps I would like the games better if I played them a second time, but don't really have the time or patience to do so. And in that case, I would be more interested in trying out Jade Empire instead, even though I've heard some bad things about it.
Perhaps I would like the games better if I played them a second time, but don't really have the time or patience to do so. And in that case, I would be more interested in trying out Jade Empire instead, even though I've heard some bad things about it.
Why are you so wrong?
weemadarthur
Member
I agree about the choice system. It makes Jedi look like doormats of the universe. At that rate I'd always go sith, but those options aren't so hot either.
I didn't really feel like Mass Effect 2&3 were much better though. Especially one choice in 3, where you choose between two parties and can't go down the middle. It isn't moral, it's just Lord of the Rings level political stupidity. If I'm the saviour of the galaxy, I want my real choice. Destroy all the individuals who disagree with me, and leave the rest alone. Then trick them all into fighting for me by manipulating their hangups.
I'd like to add, I seldom see a video game girlfriend that any man with decent self esteem wouldn't have dumped before the story has a chance to put her in danger. Viewtiful Joe, Catherine, Infamous. ... the list goes on.
I didn't really feel like Mass Effect 2&3 were much better though. Especially one choice in 3, where you choose between two parties and can't go down the middle. It isn't moral, it's just Lord of the Rings level political stupidity. If I'm the saviour of the galaxy, I want my real choice. Destroy all the individuals who disagree with me, and leave the rest alone. Then trick them all into fighting for me by manipulating their hangups.
I'd like to add, I seldom see a video game girlfriend that any man with decent self esteem wouldn't have dumped before the story has a chance to put her in danger. Viewtiful Joe, Catherine, Infamous. ... the list goes on.
The difference is that kotor 2 besides the bugs is a genuinely good game.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
I didn't care for it at release on the Xbox, but I came to really enjoy the original Knights when I played it a few years ago on PC.
Hmmm, maybe I should give Jade Empire another go.
Hmmm, maybe I should give Jade Empire another go.
TheUnsunghero26
Member
Loved the Kotors, not to long ago I went through another play through of the first on my original xbox. It had been a while since I'd last played it and I still had a great time. I always see posts about how it has poor frame rate but in my recent play through it seemed very stable. I do have the platinum hits version if that makes a difference.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
OP is pretty much correct. These flaws are especially glaring in the first game. Imo, the only reason the game was so beloved is because there really wasnt anything like it on consoles before so its basically "My First WRPG" syndrome. The sequel did a lot to fix these issues but some things like combat you can only spruce up so much without completely trashing and doing something completely different.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Come on guys, it's his opinion.
No reason to be so hard on him just because he doesn't like the games you like.
No reason to be so hard on him just because he doesn't like the games you like.
Zod the Bear
Member
I am not sure you understand the point of the internet.
OP, Ridiculous is going to eat your family.
Coffee Dog
Banned
This is a discussion forum. If we find that his opinion is ill-informed, we'll let him know.
He has an opinion, so what?
And Obsidian did a wonderful job deconstructing Star Wars and creating the best female in a game I've ever seen.
Remachinate
Member
The overarching story of KOTOR 2 is pretty compelling, but a lot of the moment-to-moment gameplay is pretty rough. I decided to replay it a few weeks ago now that the Restoration Project is complete, but I had to take a break after Nar Shadaa because of how uninteresting the locations and sidequests are. I'll likely go back and finish it at some point, but it's definitely more of a slog than I remember.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Possibly due to the Restoration Project. There was a lot of cut material that was re-instated. Some of these areas were cut for a reason.
Ironic criticism after that first line.
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