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Springy
Member
(01-07-2016, 10:51 PM)
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You make lots of great points, OP, but I have still had a great time with the game. I think it's the potential to be surprised: Bethesda wound everything up, it's all let loose when you start a new game and then you get to see how all those systems crash into one another. Not that that's any different from any of their other games in the last decade, but it's still compelling.

The settlement stuff does seem incredibly lazily implemented, though, which is a shame as it's the logical furthering of the crafting and ownership systems that have been gradually weaved through their previous titles.
HerroRygar
Member
(01-07-2016, 11:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Lamonster

I really really want to like this game. I'm about 18 hours in (and around level 18 as well), and because of my schedule, I have about two hours of gaming every other evening.

It seems like every Fallout session is the same. Go do this quest for a character I don't like, where I enter a creepy and depressing location, spend 90% of my time looting junk and 10% shooting things with the very limited ammo I have, constantly switching weapons to accommodate whatever ammo is plentiful. It takes a good hour to clear out one location, and then I have to reserve time to go back to camp and unload and scrap everything I acquired.

Usually by the 20 hour mark in most games, I'm using a weapon I'm in love with and I'm very comfortable with the world and confident in my skills. In Fallout 4, I still feel like a damn scavenger in a scary world where there's always some tedious monster just around the corner waiting to inconvenience me.

Fallout 3 was not like this. Most quests were interesting - whether it was about vampires, little kid communities, crazy oasis or black and white retro neighborhood, or me making big decisions that would affect the fate of many. Fallout 4 so far is a junk collection sim.

I don't mean to dismiss your complaints, but thematically it does somewhat make sense (although maybe not this far into the game). But yeah, it fits the theme that you've awoken to a hellish world with scarce resources, where you are constantly surrounded by the decaying remnants of the formerly prosperous society, and only the most willful or ruthless survive. There are no more factories producing goods, so you are left with the unglamorous option of scavenging through garbage for the things you need, praying you don't run out of food or ammunition before you can make it to the relative safety of a town or shelter.

If inventory management were streamlined a bit, then I think this would be fine.

Overall I really like this game. I'm disappointed with the writing and story direction, technical issues and the uselessness of non-combat options, but I am so immersed in the world and setting that I can forgive it. Sure, not my GOTY, not a masterpiece, not something that will be remembered for generations, but certainly worth my limited gaming time.
RE4PRR
Member
(01-07-2016, 11:37 PM)
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I've put well over 200 hours into this game, double Witcher 3 and both are easily my highest play games of last year. So that's enough for me.
henhowc
(01-07-2016, 11:47 PM)
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without spoiling does the shaun or institute storyline go anywhere interesting?

just did the nick valentine quest and not exactly feeling the game so far. thinking of dropping it and breaking even with my purchase. trying to not force myself to finish games just because i started them.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
(01-08-2016, 02:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by henhowc

without spoiling does the shaun or institute storyline go anywhere interesting?

just did the nick valentine quest and not exactly feeling the game so far. thinking of dropping it and breaking even with my purchase. trying to not force myself to finish games just because i started them.

"interesting" is a matter of taste (I vote no), but yes, it does go someplace
SPCTRE
Member
(01-08-2016, 01:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by RE4PRR

I've put well over 200 hours into this game, double Witcher 3 and both are easily my highest play games of last year. So that's enough for me.

I feel almost sorry for TW3 because this game that is so close to Fallout 3 in a lot of ways keeps me from playing it.

Like I'm not ready to step out of my RPG comfort zone or something. It's a ridiculous feeling to have.
Rei_Toei
Fclvat sbe Pnanqn, ru?
(01-08-2016, 02:10 PM)
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I enjoyed it immensly for the first 20 hours or so. Exploring the world, stumbling upon optional quests, strange locations, the thrill of tackling a certain challenge or facing a group of enemies better equipped then you... Sure, every sandbox/open world can do this, but it had me entertained. The gunplay being slightly improved helped. Tinkering with weaponry and armor was fun. Building and painting my first set of Power Armor also. I also really enjoyed the added verticality - it was fun to climb large structures and shoot people in the face with whatever I had bullets for. Good fun to hurl rockets down from elevated freeways or play sniper duels with those pesky mercenaries. World also felt more lively with faction clashes left and right - though sometimes almost too brimming with activity for a nuclear wasteland. There's always a point in a Fallout game where you're just tired of the mutts and mongrel packs and weaksauce enemies that you just pop effortlessly.

But fatigue set in before I was even near the end-game of the storyline(s). And the latter quests of the main factions you can align to weren't really convincing. There was so much I wanted to ask the leaders of each faction. Stuff to outright accuse them. Their answers would decide my loyalty. But I never really got that chance. Especially frustrating with regard to a certain bearded fella... Many other shortcomings (such as the dialogue options and the impact of intelligence, science, charisma) have already been adressed ad nauseam. I didn't enjoy the radio banter as much as before. I wished there were more areas like Goodneighbor, with a bit more history and backstory.

I'm hoping for some quality DLC with a tight story and some interesting gameplay additions to draw me back in. But after that initial burst of giddy glee what remains is a bit of a feeling of being let down. Another slippery slope is the comparisons between Witcher 3 and Fallout 4 but if there's one thing I didn't expect is how much more consistent Witcher 3 turned out to be from start to finish. I grew bored with W3 too at some point (basically after the Skellige story arc) but it also drew me back in. I will replay the main storyline again to see different outcomes because I'm curious. I don't see myself doing that in Fallout 4, simply because the story content of those quests feels rather poor.
cripterion
Banned
(01-08-2016, 02:43 PM)
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That tbd long post had me laughing my ass off. A lot of truth in there and even though I'm going through it (on and off) I sometimes question why do I even fucking bother...
Maybe I want to get something out of my purchase and try to salvage it with some mods built on top of this pile of shit but it's hard man...
CheDominik
Member
(01-08-2016, 04:39 PM)
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I just finished the main questline a couple of days ago. I had a great time in the Commonwealth. I didn't expect a deep RPG, just a fun game set in a fun world to explore.

My main gripes witth the game are the tedious Minutemen quests. I just gave gave up doing them, And even worse, because I already completed the Covenant quest the game wouldn't let me complete one of the Minutemen quests.
I also think the Institute plot twist made very little sense. And the ending was anticlimatic at best
ANDS
Member
(01-09-2016, 12:22 AM)

Originally Posted by jahasaja

well of course they are opinions. Or did you think OP was an omnipotent god who spoke in absolute thruths?

Originally Posted by A Link to the Snitch

Oh damn, good thing you made that point because otherwise I would have never knew that a person who wrote in bold text that this is just his opinion was just expressing an opinion. I thought he was saying facts all this time

Literally read a single word out of the entire post and ignored everything else to make a snarky comment. Well fucking done.
Solid Samus
Banned
(01-09-2016, 02:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by ANDS

Literally read a single word out of the entire post and ignored everything else to make a snarky comment. Well fucking done.

Anyone who posts 'well that's just your opinion, man!' like it's anything more than a non-response deserves to get called out on it. It's an annoying, pointless retort, and people are getting sick of it. We all already operate under the assumption that unless otherwise qualified, the personal statements of a poster represent their opinions. Just pointing that out like it's not already implicitly understood serves literally no value.
It's like, where you responded to complaints regarding the companion characters by just saying 'opinions', you would have been much better served by pointing out that the quality and reliability of the companion characters are subjective, proceeding to then back that up with positive impressions of those characters stemming from your own experiences or those of others - essentially communicating the same point in a manner that doesn't come off as being so dismissive.

I'll give you a substantial response to your original post since you seem to want one.

Originally Posted by ANDS

I think people really need to go back and play Morrowind. Everytime I see it held up as this unique thing that feels out of place in comparison to what Bethesda has released since then, I just roll my eyes, ignoring of course that they have two entirely different rpg "systems."

I don't follow. It's been noted time and time again how several factors converge to keep Fallout 4 from imparting even Oblivion or Skyrim's base level of roleplaying possibilities on the player. Moreso than ever before, Fallout 4 funnels players toward a rigid storyline with rigid characterizations and contextualization ranging from NPCs to the player character alike, and that negatively impacts how the game is perceived as an RPG. This is a very good video on the subject and if you've got the time I suggest you throw it on 1.5x speed and give it a quick listen.

Originally Posted by ANDS

1. Most character models/animations are simply embarrassing in 2015/16.

Unsurprising given it's based on the same old engine, that was originally meant to be implemented on current gen systems. If they are STILL using this system on TES VI, then we can whip out the pitch forks.

I'm honestly one of those people who think that Fallout 4 makes tremendous strides in the quality of its character models and animations, at least relative to their previous titles, and accounting for the sheer scale of their game worlds and the number of interactable NPCs therein. I do understand how people could be disappointed by what's there, though - even despite playing through Fallout 4 on a high-spec PC, I ran into a fair few instances where NPC models would look or animate strangely, and not up to standards established elsewhere within the industry.

Originally Posted by ANDS

2. What a steaming pile of shit the settlement system is. How about explain how some of it works via in-game tutorials Bethesda? Why do I have to google half of the functionality to use it properly? Why do I need a fucking perk to distribute my resources across settlements? Why do I need to wait for a settler to randomly come back to my settlement to cancel a trade route? The answer: the settlement system is a half-baked tacked-on turd to try and sell more copies of the game. I honestly said fuck it after battling with the system and having my crops glitch out for the 5th time and not be able to loot them. I'd rather go play Viva Pinata if I wanted to grow a settlement.

Horribly explained, and definitely glitches in some areas (items left after taking over a settlement now count as stealing even though they didn't belong to the settlers that now live there), however you do not have to use it.

Fallout 4's settlement system is moderately robust but it's finicky to an aggravating degree and the game doesn't do nearly enough to teach players how to effectively use it. And all the while, it serves very little active gameplay purpose, where it could have been contextualized far more strongly, and ultimately suffers due to its own inherent limitations (object placement and clipping problems, low building allotment, undesirable unscrappable objects/decorations, etc.). All in all it's a novel idea that falls completely apart due to shoddy implementation. Of course you can ignore it almost entirely but it's a damn shame that it's so half-baked to begin with. It could have been so much more appealing, accessible, and relevant to the core Fallout experience than it is.

Originally Posted by ANDS

3. Why are there no percentages in the tooltips in most of the perks? "Has a good chance to occur!" is not a very fucking useful perk description Bethesda! People shouldn't have to conduct experiments on Reddit to figure this shit out!

Streamline. It's not THAT kind of RPG. They aren't Obsidian or Larian.

That's a non-response. Borderlands 2 is about as streamlined as it gets and yet that game sees fit to furnish its players with mostly accurate descriptions as to how unique weapon properties impact their performance. Describing mod effects as "+5% Recoil. +10% Damage." as opposed to "Moderately more damaging" would only help to clarify their true ingame value, without imposing players or infringing upon Fallout 4's streamlined nature.



It's not like you need to be Obsidian or Larian in order to get why hard numbers and percentages are generally preferable to vague hints regarding stat changes, when you're powering a stat-based game.

Originally Posted by ANDS

4. The companions are just a nuisance and get in your way constantly, which is sad because I love dogs.

Same as it ever was.

That supposed to make it any better somehow? Because it doesn't, it's still a negative facet of the game. I played through much of the game using a mod that made it so that companions immediately moved out of your way if they were in it. It's strange that Bethesda didn't implement something like that themselves, considering just how much less aggravating an experience it helps to make companions in tight quarters.

Originally Posted by ANDS

5. Half the time I didn't know what my dialog choice wheel will actually say, so I stuck with the safe default answer.

Are they REALLY that obtuse? Honestly now. Subtle isn't even close to what I would call the dialog wheel choices.

When you're endeavoring to use the available dialogue options to characterize your player character with, not knowing exactly what will be said (or its inflection or general tone) means that you're not quite always going to end up saying something you would actually like to say in that moment. I ended up modding my copy of the game so that each dialogue choice on the wheel would display the spoken line verbatim to mostly deal with this problem, but that had the nasty side effect of exposing the general inflexibility of the dialogue in general.

Originally Posted by ANDS

6. Dialog options are: be a dick, be a sarcastic prick, be a decent person. And half the time they don't change the outcome of the conversation at all.

No they aren't.

Yes, they really are. There are occasional exceptions but that mod I had just mentioned only made this clear to me - you're given very little actual choice during conversations other than to follow the exact narrative path that Bethesda had already determined for that situation and for your character, and there's very little meaningful change between dialogue options, typically amounting to

- I agree/I will help
- I disagree/I'll still help
- I disagree sarcastically/I'll still help
- I will not help (ends convo until you decide to help)

or

- I like thing/idea
- I'm cynical about thing/idea
- I'm placid about thing/idea
- Tell me more

at which point any given option taken besides conversation enders will continue the conversation along a predetermined and inflexible path that usually culminates in you as the player adopting the role of good guy errand boy. If you've got counterexamples then bring 'em.

Originally Posted by ANDS

7. Characters are forgettable, except Valentin, Piper and Dogmeat.

Opinion.

I already addressed the whole 'opinion' schtick, but while the quality of companions is subjective, it certainly is arguable that outside of the mentioned characters, most of the available companions have

- little context connecting them meaningfully to the events of the Commonwealth and your own adventures both before and during the duration of the game
- unsatisfying and totally self-contained quest arcs that resolve completely neatly, rarely mentioned or impacting the ingame world or narrative after the fact
- uninteresting personalities and backgrounds, backed by flat voice acting delivery
- backwards-thinking friendship mechanics wherein your companions come to idolize you based on superficial elements like whether or not you've been sarcastic or picked a bunch of locks, with each companion progressing to points where they will express, in a similar manner as the last, how you're (stage 1 - a cool guy | stage 2 - someone they can confide in | stage 3 - a true friend | stage 4 - literally jesus), before never mentioning their relationship with you or having it come up in any meaningful context again.


Originally Posted by ANDS

8. Random chance on conversation options is just fucking annoying.

Opinion and has been in their system for years. It is a way of making the CHM stat useful.

'Opinion' is a non-response. 'Has been in their system for years' does nothing to address the flaws behind this system at all.

On paper it makes sense as a way to impart value into the charisma stat, but in practice it has nearly the opposite effect - chance-based speech checks enable save-scumming, ensuring that with minimal effort, any player can bruteforce their way through any skill check in the game just by quicksaving and quickloading. This was a problem in Fallout 3, but New Vegas elegantly sidestepped the issue by giving skill checks hard requirements and broadening the range of skills and SPECIAL stats that could be checked during conversation. Fallout 4 returning to the previous system, which is far more easily manipulated (devaluing the charisma stat as a whole), is a definite regression, especially considering that in Fallout 4, players can simply quicksave during the middle of conversation, making bruteforcing more viable than ever. Hard stat checks would have been preferable but it's moot as Fallout 4 rarely features charisma checks alone to begin with, and when it does, they're almost always related to how much money you can squeeze out of someone.

Originally Posted by ANDS

9. Most of the perks are simply damage increases or a random chance to do something. Also, my thought when unlocking a perk, should not be: "Oh thank god, that was such a tedious part of the game!". I'm looking at you Local Leader Perk. There are others too.

Define "most." I did a build where it wasn't until level 20 that I actually got anything that increased the raw damage I was doing and I'm struggling to think which of those they are that aren't tied to weapon types. Local Leader is definitely tedious but worth it if you are going a certain route with your build.

I could have gone for some more unique or situational perks but I thought that the perk system was perfectly functional in terms of how your character progresses in Fallout 4. I'm not so miffed that many of the perks relate to percent increases to attributes of specific types of items, seems perfectly sensible to me, especially in lieu of skill points.

Originally Posted by ANDS

10. Combat is not very enjoyable, I went with a melee build with some shooting mixed in. Using V.A.T.S with the Blitz perk caused all sorts of weird shit to happen, including clipping through walls or simply failing to attack properly. Same old press attack many times to win by shooting or beating a health bar to 0.

Opinion and honestly what did you expect from a melee build?

Fair enough, but still, combat has always been a sticking point in Bethesda games, and you would think that they'd have their melee combat in particular at a more polished and satisfying point at this stage in their history.

Originally Posted by ANDS

11. Crafting system causes you to horde everything you find. Which may not sound like a bad thing, but when paired with a terrible sorting UI and 500 different items that contain various different materials. Good luck finding a material that breaks down into the raw material you need. If I subtracted the amount of time I spent picking shit up, I'd honestly have about 5 hours less play time.

Use the tag system. I only know the types of materials in the game. I certainly have no interest in knowing what every object in the game is. If there are materials I need for upgrades, I simply tag it from my inventory and look for the glow removing the "good luck finding. . ."

You actually need level 2 of the Scrapper perk in order for tagged objects to glow in the game world - something that I feel should have probably just been an inherent player trait, considering just how much you do have to loot or at least inspect rooms and objects one by one when you don't have it. In a game this large, packed with so much loot, the sheer act of looting alone can become an imposing prospect. I remember that for the first 50 or so hours of my playthrough I'd clear locations of enemies and quest content first and then spend about 30 minutes to an hour just going back through and picking shit up.

Originally Posted by ANDS

12. Armour is limited and very boring looking.

Upgrade your armor stats and complete the quests to get access to better armor.

If he finds the armor boring looking then the later-game unlocks are probably not going to change his mind on that, but I wouldn't call armor 'limited', there's plenty of it out there and often one specific type of armor will have several different in-game appearances depending on the color, weight, and size of that particular instance of equipment.

Originally Posted by ANDS

13. Gun modifications are decent, but really just limited the variety of overall weapons.

100% do not agree with the final statement. At all. I do not remember having access to a plasma rifle that can tag and track enemies a la Far Cry in previous games.

I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, just take a look at this list of weapons from Fallout: New Vegas and tell me that something hasn't been lost. Those weapons were more sensibly grounded in the game world, with lore-friendly naming conventions, their own sets of mods, and sometimes even their own quests and backstory associated with them. I do think that the modification and legendary systems in Fallout 4 did some damage to how successfully weapons are contextualized within the game world. (It also doesn't help that the lack of a repair system just plain floods this game with viable repeats of the weapons you've already seen a billion times.)

Originally Posted by ANDS

14. Definitely not the glitchiest Bethesda game I've played. I had 1 crash and my fair share of falling through the map or quests failing to progress properly requiring a reload though.

Based on user experience.

I echo his experience - I've had a few minor annoyances along the way but nothing anywhere near as game breaking or obtrusive as some of the shit I ran into during Fallout 3 or New Vegas. Performance-wise I had a good time with F4 although I played it on a high-spec PC.

Originally Posted by ANDS

15. Power armour; meh - annoying to babysit.

Confusing sentence. Remove power core and move on. Map shows you where the armor is, and if parked at a fast travel location is always there (assuming it's unpowered).

I love Power Armor but if you keep more than one suit then the things can be annoying to babysit (as in keep them where you want them whenever you're not using them, sometimes necessitating a fast travel trip or two), or switch out to craft/re-position within your base, or so on and so forth.
lionpants
Member
(01-09-2016, 05:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Solid Samus

...

Very well said! This is the type of criticism I look forward to reading when I check back on the thread every so often. Bravo.

Today at work I was talking with some people that are still playing through the game and it actually gave me a minor interest to maybe check it out again on PC with mods to remove the annoying things that you mentioned.

To all the posters that get defensive and just spout: "opinions":

I'm not saying its the worst game of all time. I'm saying it was a huge disappointment for me. And when people just accept things as: "oh that is how it is done in the past/other games", that's just ridiculous.

You need to be critical about things that you want/expect to be changed or they will just keep happening.
tuxfool
Member
(01-09-2016, 05:54 PM)

Originally Posted by lionpants

You need to be critical about things that you want/expect to be changed or they will just keep happening.

This is true. Personally I'm willing to often let some faults slide, but many of the issues presented in this thread are are a persistent failure from Bethesda in the last 10 years. I think Fallout 4 is when a lot of people have finally had enough. Where once it was counterbalanced by their impressive worlds, it no longer is the case.
ANDS
Member
(01-09-2016, 06:52 PM)

Originally Posted by Solid Samus

Anyone who posts 'well that's just your opinion, man!' like it's anything more than a non-response deserves to get called out on it.

It was a non-response. I'm not entirely sure what the confusion is. I responded to what were statements that could be responded to and marked as opinion and skipped those that were not.

It's like, where you responded to complaints regarding the companion characters by just saying 'opinions', you would have been much better served by pointing out that the quality and reliability of the companion characters are subjective, proceeding to then back that up with positive impressions of those characters stemming from your own experiences or those of others - essentially communicating the same point in a manner that doesn't come off as being so dismissive.

Why would I? It is a system that the OP is unlikely to change their minds on. So why would I waste time trying to convince them otherwise. There is no objective series of statements I can make that will force the OP to neccessarily move from Point A to Point B.

I'll give you a substantial response to your original post since you seem to want one.

My response was sitting up on my computer and I hadn't hit "Submit Reply" but sure.

I don't follow.

Uhm. MW isn't as "deep" as people are remembering it. I don't need to watch another "Why [insert recent Bethesda game] isn't as good as [insert previous Bethesda game]" video to know this. Nowhere in my response did I say FO4 was a flawless game; that doesn't make MW or the previous games necessarily "better."

I'm honestly one of those people who think that Fallout 4 makes tremendous strides in the quality of its character models and animations, at least relative to their previous titles, and accounting for the sheer scale of their game worlds and the number of interactable NPCs therein. I do understand how people could be disappointed by what's there, though - even despite playing through Fallout 4 on a high-spec PC, I ran into a fair few instances where NPC models would look or animate strangely, and not up to standards established elsewhere within the industry.

Like I said, let's wait until TESVI comes out, which should be focused on current gen systems from the outset, to see whether or not Bethesda are committed to advancing their in house engine. Personally FO4 was the first game where I wasn't completely distracted by how stiff the characters looked/moved.

Fallout 4's settlement system is moderately robust but it's finicky to an aggravating degree and the game doesn't do nearly enough to teach players how to effectively use it. And all the while, it serves very little active gameplay purpose, where it could have been contextualized far more strongly, and ultimately suffers due to its own inherent limitations (object placement and clipping problems, low building allotment, undesirable unscrappable objects/decorations, etc.). All in all it's a novel idea that falls completely apart due to shoddy implementation. Of course you can ignore it almost entirely but it's a damn shame that it's so half-baked to begin with. It could have been so much more appealing, accessible, and relevant to the core Fallout experience than it is.

I don't think it's half baked at all. I think the documentation and it's use for advanced features is criminally unexplained, but at least the system works (most of the time).

That's a non-response.

No it's not. It's a response you simply do not think has value.

Borderlands 2 is about as streamlined as it gets and yet that game sees fit to furnish its players with mostly accurate descriptions as to how unique weapon properties impact their performance. Describing mod effects as "+5% Recoil. +10% Damage." as opposed to "Moderately more damaging" would only help to clarify their true ingame value, without imposing players or infringing upon Fallout 4's streamlined nature.



It's not like you need to be Obsidian or Larian in order to get why hard numbers and percentages are generally preferable to vague hints regarding stat changes, when you're powering a stat-based game.

I assumed the OP was talking about Perks and not Weapon Mods (which, other than recoil, show you what they change on the gun itself). The only Perks I know of that do not have explicit %-modifiers are Idiot Savant and Mysterious Stranger. People have already worked out what the formula for IS is - Bethesda is REALLY going to put that in the tooltip? Really?



That supposed to make it any better somehow?

Nope. It's just how it is.

When you're endeavoring to use the available dialogue options to characterize your player character with, not knowing exactly what will be said (or its inflection or general tone) means that you're not quite always going to end up saying something you would actually like to say in that moment. I ended up modding my copy of the game so that each dialogue choice on the wheel would display the spoken line verbatim to mostly deal with this problem, but that had the nasty side effect of exposing the general inflexibility of the dialogue in general.

Again. I didn't find the dialog wheel choices subtle at all.. I wasn't entirely sure what the outcome would be, but that's beyond the scope here.

Yes, they really are.

They aren't. And no I'm not going to sit here and catalog every conversation to show this. Are a good number like that? Absolutely. However where they are inappropriate they aren't there.

I already addressed the whole 'opinion' schtick, -

This isn't a comedy routine. As I explained it is the easiest "tag" for a comment that I can not possibly respond to without just getting into an "opinion loop."

'Opinion' is a non-response. 'Has been in their system for years' does nothing to address the flaws behind this system at all.

Nothing you describe is a flaw in the system. It is a flaw for the user. The player chooses to save scum. FO:NV making hard skill checks introduces artificial consequence.

Fair enough, but still, combat has always been a sticking point in Bethesda games, and you would think that they'd have their melee combat in particular at a more polished and satisfying point at this stage in their history.

I'm fairly certain that will not be happening so long as the same team is at the wheel. I think the melee options in FO4 are far more varied than they have ever been, but at the end of the day it still boils down to swing and hit.

You actually need level 2 of the Scrapper perk in order for tagged objects to glow in the game world - something that I feel should have probably just been an inherent player trait, considering just how much you do have to loot or at least inspect rooms and objects one by one when you don't have it. In a game this large, packed with so much loot, the sheer act of looting alone can become an imposing prospect. I remember that for the first 50 or so hours of my playthrough I'd clear locations of enemies and quest content first and then spend about 30 minutes to an hour just going back through and picking shit up.

I'm glad it's tied to a perk. You can already tag items, and hoovering over containers does show anything with a Magnifying glass prominently. That perk is there for QOL; to have it available for everyone takes away the point of scavenging.

I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, just take a look at this list of weapons from Fallout: New Vegas and tell me that something hasn't been lost. Those weapons were more sensibly grounded in the game world, with lore-friendly naming conventions, their own sets of mods, and sometimes even their own quests and backstory associated with them. I do think that the modification and legendary systems in Fallout 4 did some damage to how successfully weapons are contextualized within the game world. (It also doesn't help that the lack of a repair system just plain floods this game with viable repeats of the weapons you've already seen a billion times.)

Just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not seeing much in that list that I can't get in FO4, and then some. I think there are enough mods unique to the subclass of weapon to make your choices meaningful and distinguish one weapon type from another.

And I feel like the repair cost has been replaced with the (at least for me) scarcity of ammo and the cost of mods. It was a hard lesson to learn that mods were unique to weapon type.

Originally Posted by lionpants

Very well said! This is the type of criticism I look forward to reading when I check back on the thread every so often. Bravo.

To all the posters that get defensive and just spout: "opinions"

Oh please. I responded to any of your comments that weren't literally just opinions and wasn't likely to move the barometer. You chose to not focus on those. If you were looking for responses, maybe you should have looked harder?
ship it
Member
(01-09-2016, 07:01 PM)
ship it's Avatar

Originally Posted by ANDS

Literally read a single word out of the entire post and ignored everything else to make a snarky comment. Well fucking done.

opinion

seriously though, there is plenty of people agreeing or at least seeing some validity with the OP even when they still like the game.

and the stiff characters didn't bother you? really? did you spend any time at a settlement and watch them do their thing. or watch any random fights between characters? or watch enemies get stuck?

"No it's not. It's a response you simply do not think has value."

there it is again. "its only you" rebuttle. so boring. "easiest tag" lol.
Solid Samus
Banned
(01-10-2016, 07:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by ANDS

It was a non-response. I'm not entirely sure what the confusion is. I responded to what were statements that could be responded to and marked as opinion and skipped those that were not.

Why would I? It is a system that the OP is unlikely to change their minds on. So why would I waste time trying to convince them otherwise. There is no objective series of statements I can make that will force the OP to neccessarily move from Point A to Point B.

I'm just saying, those are the reasons that people take issues with flat out just saying "that's your opinion, man", and they're valid.
At the very least there's a lot more value in explaining why someone could feel the other way over just implying it by saying "opinions".

Originally Posted by ANDS

Uhm. MW isn't as "deep" as people are remembering it. I don't need to watch another "Why [insert recent Bethesda game] isn't as good as [insert previous Bethesda game]" video to know this. Nowhere in my response did I say FO4 was a flawless game; that doesn't make MW or the previous games necessarily "better."

They're not necessarily better but they're stronger RPGs for sure and grant the player a lot more opportunities to characterize both themselves and their actions throughout their playthrough.

And FYI, the video I posted isn't 'another why X is better than Y' video, it's a fully featured analysis that probes the differences between Fallout 4 and other Bethesda games without disparaging Fallout 4 or claiming that it's bad/worse than the others... but that sure was a convenient excuse to handwave away content that neatly addresses your argument, huh?

Seriously, watch the video. It's worthwhile and you will better understand where some of us are coming from. Don't let your fear of negative criticism blind you from balanced analysis.

Originally Posted by ANDS

Like I said, let's wait until TESVI comes out, which should be focused on current gen systems from the outset, to see whether or not Bethesda are committed to advancing their in house engine. Personally FO4 was the first game where I wasn't completely distracted by how stiff the characters looked/moved.

I feel ya there.

Originally Posted by ANDS

I don't think it's half baked at all. I think the documentation and it's use for advanced features is criminally unexplained, but at least the system works (most of the time).

The system works poorly and inconsistently. I can't tell you how many times I've had to overhaul a build because of
-clipping issues preventing me from placing parts in seemingly acceptable locations
-aesthetic problems stemming from indestructable plants and scenery
-touchy rotation and object placement
-ineffectual AI pathfinding
-limited build allotment
or have otherwise had to exploit tricks and workarounds just to get basic things to work the way I needed them to. There are a lot of no-brainer fixes making the rounds in the mod scene lately and at times I wonder why Bethesda didn't just allow the player to clip objects some of the way through the ground or into preestablished walls at the very least.

Originally Posted by ANDS

No it's not. It's a response you simply do not think has value.

Regardless, my point stands.

Originally Posted by ANDS

I assumed the OP was talking about Perks and not Weapon Mods (which, other than recoil, show you what they change on the gun itself). The only Perks I know of that do not have explicit %-modifiers are Idiot Savant and Mysterious Stranger. People have already worked out what the formula for IS is - Bethesda is REALLY going to put that in the tooltip? Really?

Perks do a much better job at illustrating their effects than weapon modifications do (+20%, +20 stat, etc), if weapon modifications followed their example this wouldn't even be an issue. (op was talking about weapon mods)

The weapon mods give you a vague hint as to what they change on the gun itself, not anything close to exact, just 'Improved Damage' or 'Superior Rate of Fire' which doesn't really tell me if they're worthwhile so much as a simple percentage increase notifier would.

Originally Posted by ANDS

Again. I didn't find the dialog wheel choices subtle at all.. I wasn't entirely sure what the outcome would be, but that's beyond the scope here.

I explained why they're 'subtle' and so have countless people in response to this game, mostly around E3 when it became known that the protagonist of this game would be voiced. These are two or three word descriptions that you can't use to effectively characterize yourself because you generally don't know exactly what's being said, what tone it's delivered in, etc. whereas prior Fallout games generally furnished you with a more varied set of dialogue options that could often be interpreted in multiple ways befitting your particular character without breaking the context of the scenario.

Originally Posted by ANDS

They aren't. And no I'm not going to sit here and catalog every conversation to show this. Are a good number like that? Absolutely. However where they are inappropriate they aren't there.

They're rarely not there, man. I've played something like 140 hours of this game and endeavored to clear the entire map, playing it through with a mod that actually divulged the full contents of every single dialogue option. I've seen the shit for myself, man.

Originally Posted by ANDS

Nothing you describe is a flaw in the system. It is a flaw for the user. The player chooses to save scum. FO:NV making hard skill checks introduces artificial consequence.

I'm sorry but are you shitting me here?

So what you're saying is that the hard skill check system, which emphasized your build choices and activities and helped to make every skill relevant in its own way... which actually locked you out of content or decisions or *gasp* opened up new paths and decisions if your build was or wasn't to the task, and would result in a humorous dialogue option implying as much...

That's artificial consequence?

While the chance-based skill check system, which removes that emphasis on build choices by enabling dice-roll failure for high charisma players and dice-roll success for low charisma players, and only ever checks charisma... Which is extremely easily exploitable to the layman in a way that simply isn't through the hard-check system...

That's natural consequence?

Just no. You're not going to convince anyone with that. I'm surprised you even posted something like that, you couldn't be more transparently wrong. And yeah, the fact that the system is so easily save scummed is in fact a flaw with the system, and particularly how it was implemented, because it makes save scumming an extremely attractive and quick alternative over simply failing speech checks (and dealing with the consequences... of the dice roll). Most RPGs don't tie consequence to easily exploitable dice rolls for this exact reason. That's artificial consequence, where your build hardly matters and the outcomes are never limiting. Like I said earlier, it's not like charisma is ever checked for anything beyond haggling anyway outside of a very small handful of occasions.

The hard skill check system of New Vegas is a prime example of legit choice & consequence, that employs its own context-friendly workarounds for the savvy wastelander to take advantage of. Blows my mind that you would imply otherwise unless you just don't understand choice & consequence.

Originally Posted by ANDS

I'm glad it's tied to a perk. You can already tag items, and hoovering over containers does show anything with a Magnifying glass prominently. That perk is there for QOL; to have it available for everyone takes away the point of scavenging.

You're missing the OP's point - that without that perk, Fallout 4's standard gameplay loop emphasizes such a degree of fine-combing and scavenging that efficiently playing the game becomes a slog. There's so much to scavenge and check through in this game, and that's why I provided that personal example of blasting through locations only to spend the next 30 or so minutes simply looting it out for the stuff I need. That gets old in a way that not even Fallout 3 or NV did because Fallout 4 demands so much of it from you. Doesn't matter if the object I need has a magnifying glass over it when I'm still physically scouring every corner of every building and hovering my cursor over shit to inspect it half the time I'm out there in the wastes.

Originally Posted by ANDS

Just going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not seeing much in that list that I can't get in FO4, and then some. I think there are enough mods unique to the subclass of weapon to make your choices meaningful and distinguish one weapon type from another.

From one another? Sure I guess, but I can't say I remember a single 'unique' weapon from Fallout 4 that mattered to me outside of Grognak's axe because they all just seemed like regular ass weapons with 'legendary' attributes - and while that's what they may have been in previous games, it just feels so transparent here, especially when you can pull non-named weapons off of legendary fools that have better effects halfway through the game.

Originally Posted by ANDS

And I feel like the repair cost has been replaced with the (at least for me) scarcity of ammo and the cost of mods. It was a hard lesson to learn that mods were unique to weapon type.

How far are you into Fallout 4? Ammo doesn't stay very scarce for long... nor do mods stay out of reach to the efficient scavenger so long as you've accumulated their prerequisite perks. Even if the ammo were truly more scarce (and believe me, I modded my game out so that I found 75% less ammo and I still had plenty) that doesn't address how the lack of a repair stat floods the game with identical weapons. At the very least, if I shot up a pack of raiders in New Vegas, I'd pick up a bunch of shit guns I could use to repair my own. Those shit guns meant that weapon vendors had true value outside of Fallout 4's 'regular weapons, maybe some mods, maybe a unique' approach, and it meant that each firefight didn't leave me with a billion valuable guns to clutter my inventory and destroy the ingame economy with.
Replicant
There's a duck in the room
There's a duck i-OWWWW
(01-10-2016, 07:43 AM)
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Yeah, after more hours of fun in this game, I seriously don't understand the hate. It's a flawed game but it doesn't detract much from the fun you can have playing.

I'm playing it in third person. Don't know if that makes any difference.
SquashMatch
Member
(01-10-2016, 07:50 AM)
Funny how opinions are.....I totally disagree. I played witcher 3 for about 3 hours and hated it. I thought the controls sucked, I HATE being shoehorned into the Geralt character, and I found that searching for stupid clues with the absolutely boring witcher sense was as bad as it gets.

Skyrim and Fallout are not perfect by any means but give me those games any day of the week. My biggest regret about the Witcher 3 is I bought it digitally and could not trade it in!
True Fire
Member
(01-10-2016, 07:52 AM)
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I've started replaying Fallout 4 with True Storms, Stalker ENB, and various difficulty mods, and it's already significantly better. It feels like pure survival horror.

I can't wait for GECK mods to enhance the survival horror experience.
Dreams-Visions
I'm mad as hell but this sandwich is delicious
(01-10-2016, 07:57 AM)
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My friends strongly agree with your comments, OP. In fact they said you missed some things like settlements constantly pinging for help, people not recognizing you 2 quests later, etc.
Steel
Banned
(01-10-2016, 08:10 AM)

Originally Posted by ANDS

Uhm. MW isn't as "deep" as people are remembering it. I don't need to watch another "Why [insert recent Bethesda game] isn't as good as [insert previous Bethesda game]" video to know this. Nowhere in my response did I say FO4 was a flawless game; that doesn't make MW or the previous games necessarily "better."

Look, I replayed Morrowind last year. I replay Morrowind every couple of years. It's as deep as I remember it. It has flaws that are large enough that I could absolutely understand people being turned off from it(that combat is horrible), but it absolutely has a lot more depth and role-playing to it than any of Bethesda's later works.
tuxfool
Member
(01-10-2016, 01:57 PM)

Originally Posted by Replicant

I'm playing it in third person. Don't know if that makes any difference.

Nearly none of the complaints in this thread have any bearing upon this fact.
CloudWolf
Member
(01-10-2016, 02:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dreams-Visions

My friends strongly agree with your comments, OP. In fact they said you missed some things like settlements constantly pinging for help, people not recognizing you 2 quests later, etc.

This is the reason why I avoided the Minutemen like the plague.
SanguineShark
Member
(01-10-2016, 11:08 PM)
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I'm in such agreement with you op. Fallout 3 was one of my first "next gen" experiences, after a long self imposed gaming hiatus. I was unaware open world games such as these existed, and it has left an impression with me ever since. I'm always comparing new open world types with my original playthrough, and only red dead redemption I find to be on par.

Fallout 4 left me with such a bitter taste in my mouth ... it may have better gunplay, but everything else is significantly worse minus the graphics, which are still somewhat embarrassing for a 2015 title. It almost put me off the entire open world genre until a friend convinced me to give Witcher 3 a shot.

Despite the massive hype surrounding it with expectations to live up to, it somehow still managed to impress. From now on I'll hold off on Bethesda titles, while eagerly anticipating whatever CD Projekt Red comes out with. It doesn't hurt dystopian cyberpunk theme is a favorite of mine.


edit: I should also add I was not very fond of Witcher 2 overall, so this is a pleasant surprise.

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