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Aureon
Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
(07-16-2017, 03:43 PM)
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My impression is that erdogan could've quashed it before anything happened, but let it go ahead to justify consolidation of power.
MisterFalcon
Member
(07-16-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by swarley64

Fucking what???? Is there a source for this?

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena...-its-plotters/

Thing like 'the battallion I sent got stopped by the police and the commander was arrested' show just how clumsy this whole thing was.
El Topo
Member
(07-16-2017, 05:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Frustrated_me

Erdogan is the best thing to have happened to Turkey? You talk like as if his successes weren't already laid out for him from previous administrations mishaps.

In all fairness, the enormous economic development under him (until recent years) is something that a lot of his supporters give him credit for. It used to be his one big trump card.
Last edited by El Topo; 07-16-2017 at 05:21 PM.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-16-2017, 05:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by qazqaNii

What are you even trying to add to this thread? You know just because you don't support Erdogan doesn't mean you are right.

Erdogan is still the best thing that has has happened for alot of people in Turkey, many people now have access to social services.
While I didn't support his Yes/No vote for that parliamentary thing, I still think that there are no better options out there. And aslong as CHP keeps screwing up there will be no change.

Well ex-fucking-cuse me if I'll take a possibily incompetent CHP over a fucking power-hungry, Islamist, conservative, bigoted, sexist dictator.

Oh, Erdoğan literally INTERCEPTED ALL MOBILE PHONE CALLS (including EMERGENCY NUMBERS) yesterday to deliver a message of celebration by the way. You call anyone, you get a message from Erdoğan. This is the situation Turkey is in.
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 07-16-2017 at 05:28 PM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-16-2017, 11:00 PM)

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Any double standard related to other countries has nothing to do with my question. "But what about Egypt?????" deflects from the discussion at hand.

What The Economist's Democracy Index is not telling you about is the Islamist rhetoric and attempts at bigoted legislation that's plagued this country since 2013 or thereabouts. An opposition media still exists, but long-running opposition newspapers and magazines HAVE been shut down by a surge of legal cases brought up against them, had their executives investigated of links to the organization of the coup, or in Zaman's case, literally invaded and seized by men under Erdoğan's command.

Muslim rhetoric or conservative politics is not against democracy. You also failed to recall that a senior AKP member talked about changing the secular aspect of the constitution, and Erdogan publicly denounced him and affirm his faith in secularism. I don't understand how you can be islamist and wanting to maintain the secular character of the constitution in the same time:

Parliament Speaker Ismail Kahraman unexpectedly sparked controversy in Turkey when on April 25 he declared that Turkey’s new constitution should forgo mention of “secularism” and instead be a “religious constitution” referencing God. His words reignited Turkey’s always tense “secularism debate,” which has been amplified since 2002 when the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power. Kahraman's remarks led to protests in a number of cities, a call by the main opposition leader for him to resign and allegations by secular pundits that the Speaker had shown the AKP’s “true face,” its “real intentions.” Because Kahraman is a known confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, many also suspected that his statement was part of a scheme being orchestrated by Turkey's leader.

Erdogan is willing to not abolish Turkey’s constitutional secularism, as some fear, but rather to use religion in the most effective way.

In the next two days, however, the major figures in the AKP disowned Kahraman’s position on a “religious constitution.” The AKP’s Mustafa Sentop, chairman of parliament's constitutional commission, said that Kahraman’s view was not a “party stance” and that “secularism is preserved in our constitutional draft.” Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu asserted, “In the new constitution that we are preparing, the principle of secularism will be included.” He added that it would be a “liberal interpretation” of secularism, not an “authoritarian” version. In also addressing the controversy, Erdogan not only professed support for secularism, but even offered an inspired defense of the principle.

Defining secularism as the state's “obligation to stay at an equal distance to different faith groups,” he explained why it is a good idea: “If the faith of all religious groups in this country is guaranteed in the constitution, and the state’s equal distance to all religious groups is a foundation, why do you need to emphasize Islam? If I can live my faith as a Muslim the way I want to, the issue is over. If a Christian can live his/her Christianity, if a Jew can live his/her Jewishness or an atheist can live his/her atheism, the issue is also over for them.”




Read more

The fact that you equate the prayer organized to commemorate the failed coup as "are we doing jihad?" tell a lot about the two Turkey who don't want to live together, and don't know each other.

Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down. Honestly i don't know if Gulenist are behind the failed coup, but his group was certainly REALLY late to condemn the coup attempt. US condemn it first, and they were pretty late themselves. I mean, Gulenist were the first suspect, why they waited that the coup failed completely (late in the night) to condemn it ?

The other attacks against freedom of press are well known and i acknowledge them. However, it doesn't make Turkey a dictatorship. You can go in the street and buy one of the most popular news outlet and you'll find heavily anti-Erdogan/AKP rhetorics. You can put on the TV and you'll find the same thing. You can vote for the next election and Erdogan is gone.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-16-2017 at 11:09 PM.
m3k
Member
(07-16-2017, 11:09 PM)
i didnt have a grasp on erogdan's turkey but he's riding the coup to dictatorship
ClosingADoor
Member
(07-16-2017, 11:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down.

Can you explain why this is supposed to be pretty normal?

Erdogan is clearly pulling more power towards him. Is he a dictator at this moment? No. But the way he acts shows there is a real danger he wants to be one. I just don't get why you want to make excuses for this guy, since you say you acknowledge the things he is doing wrong, like limiting freedom of press, jailing people, firing people and trying to gain more power.
Last edited by ClosingADoor; 07-16-2017 at 11:43 PM.
Muffin1611
Member
(07-16-2017, 11:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Autocrats are not elected.

This is simply not true.
Karsha
Member
(07-16-2017, 11:54 PM)
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He'd still win in a democratic vote with a large margin, Its weird that people think he is manipulating the vote or something. Yes it might not be 80% like he claims but surely it will be 60% + .
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-16-2017, 11:57 PM)

Originally Posted by Muffin1611

This is simply not true.

*In free elections with political pluralism.

Can you explain why this is supposed to be pretty normal?

Erdogan is clearly pulling more power towards him. Is he a dictator at this moment? No. But the way he acts shows there is a real danger he wants to be one. I just don't get why you want to make excuses for this guy, since you say you acknowledge the things he is doing wrong, like limiting freedom of press, jailing people, firing people and trying to gain more power.

Only for saying that, you have 99 % of Gaf against you. So, my goal is to bring balance.
I am very critical of a lot of thing Erdogan have done and i'm not a fan of his political style. But i don't agree with the mainstream western narrative on him nor on political islam in general. Turkey have an identitary issues and i already expressed here how it was thanks to AKP that many issues were resolved, like the hijab ban in public university for instance. Also, big steps were made on the kurdish issue, like allowing the teaching of the kurdish language and a public kurdish channel. Also, a complete and free health public system was instaured. The power of the military was largely crippled, and the power is far more civil now than before AKP. Let's remember that Erdogan was jailed because he read a poem. So, many improvements have occurred.

Turkey used to be a muslim society ruled by a militarist secular elite. I believe that it was wrong, and that any country should be ruled by something that represent the society. Now, the issue is that Turkey don't go to far "on the other side" and can still remain a diverse country. I don't believe that Erdogan is heading toward dictatorship.
France is still far more ruled by a presidential system than Turkey under the new constitution. It's a big move from a weak civil power (which favored military rule) to a strong civil power, and i believe it's needed.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 12:02 AM.
ClosingADoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:20 AM)
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I think we all know that Turkey had made major steps over the last few decades. That is why people are so upset with Erdogan now. Because there is a real fear that he will undo a lot of progress and in areas he already has by fighting with the EU, jailing a lot of people, firing 150.000 people from education and justice, shutting down media. Better to worry now and push back against that, then to see it all happen and be too late.

I just can't see how Erdogan with all the things he is doing is moving the country forward in any good way.

Also, can you still explain to me how shutting down a newspaper is a pretty good thing? You skipped over that one.
Last edited by ClosingADoor; 07-17-2017 at 12:26 AM.
Jackpot
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Let's remember that Erdogan was jailed because he read a poem. So, many improvements have occurred.

Are you fucking serious right now?

German comedian Jan Böhmermann could face prison for 'smear poem' against Turkish President Erdogan

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a6972356.html

Cafeteria manager jailed for insulting Turkey's Erdogan, lawyer says

Turkish authorities have arrested the cafeteria manager of the opposition Cumhuriyet newspaper for insulting the president after he said he would not serve tea to Tayyip Erdogan, one of the manager's lawyers told Reuters on Monday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKBN14F0S6

Cartoonists Bahadir Baruter and Ozer Aydogan, from the Turkish satirical magazine Penguen, have been found guilty of insulting Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in a cartoon on the cover of the magazine’s August issue.

https://cartoonistsrights.org/two-mo...facing-prison/

Turkish schoolboy arrested for 'insulting' President Erdogan

Turkish police have arrested a 16-year-old high school student in the city of Konya on charges of insulting President Tayyip Erdogan, local media reported on Thursday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...t-Erdogan.html

Ex-Miss Turkey sentenced for insulting Erdogan

A Turkish court has convicted a former Miss Turkey of insulting President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, giving her a 14-month suspended prison sentence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36419723

And that's the tip of the iceberg of people who have been imprisoned due to Erdogan's thin skin. Not to mention journalists who dare to do their jobs. Such suppression has actually skyrocketed under him:

1,845 Erdoğan insult cases opened in Turkey since 2014

Erdoğan has been accused of aggressively using a previously seldom-used law that bars insults to the president, as a way to muffle dissent.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-to-go-ahead

Schoolchildren. Cartoonists. Poets. These are the enemy according to Erdogan. "Improvements" my ass.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 12:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Muslim rhetoric or conservative politics is not against democracy. You also failed to recall that a senior AKP member talked about changing the secular aspect of the constitution, and Erdogan publicly denounced him and affirm his faith in secularism. I don't understand how you can be islamist and wanting to maintain the secular character of the constitution in the same time:

You can be an Islamist by deliberately tying religion into your country's politics. Throwing a party member under the bus for being more overtly Islamist than you are doesn't mean you'd immediately become perfectly secular. Does invoking Islam as a central point of your political stance sound secular to you? Does making bigoted and judgmental statements on subjects like abortion and tying them to religion point, in any way, that Erdoğan is a person to be trusted with the presidency of any country? Can a President who permits the dismissal of evolution from high school curricula on the basis of "it's arguable and too complex" really ensure his country effectively implements secularism? Is a President who FORCIBLY BROADCASTS a political message through private communication channels AND mentions Allah in that message the sort of person that should rule a democratic and secular country?

I know your answer though. You still trust Erdoğan's words more than his actions, so you'll just say that the lack of a motion to turn the country officially into an Islamic Theocracy means Erdoğan is totally, certainly, 100% secular. Since I can still go out and buy one of the few standing opposition newspapers or magazines, the country's democratic legitimacy is not affected AT ALL and it's just as if jailed journalists and the overt crackdown on political dissidence don't matter in the slightest!

But you know what? Gloat over the semantics all you want. Regardless of how "secular" he is, a conservative, bigoted Muslim asshole like Erdoğan is unfit to rule a constitutionally secular country.

The fact that you equate the prayer organized to commemorate the failed coup as "are we doing jihad?" tell a lot about the two Turkey who don't want to live together, and don't know each other.

Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down. Honestly i don't know if Gulenist are behind the failed coup, but his group was certainly REALLY late to condemn the coup attempt. US condemn it first, and they were pretty late themselves. I mean, Gulenist were the first suspect, why they waited that the coup failed completely (late in the night) to condemn it ?

The other attacks against freedom of press are well known and i acknowledge them. However, it doesn't make Turkey a dictatorship. You can go in the street and buy one of the most popular news outlet and you'll find heavily anti-Erdogan/AKP rhetorics. You can put on the TV and you'll find the same thing. You can vote for the next election and Erdogan is gone.

1. Sarcasm, Irony and Exeggerations 101. I of fucking course know that the call to prayer doesn't imply jihad. What I mean the was that Islam was being brought into politics, and Islam itself was being influenced by political motives as well. But feel free to continue talking about "both siiides are igggnorannntttt waah wah".

2. Waiting on the proof that Zaman is a Gülen-run newspaper. Don't use a Turkish news source.

3. Skipping the speculation on the coup's culprit.

4. Hoo boy, it's the "you have democratic elections so you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE JEOPARDIZATION OF DEMOCRACY WHATSOEVER!" argument once again.
Come again when suspicious power cuts during election day are no longer literally blamed on cats.
Come again when the opposition viewpoints are given an equal time of day as Erdoğan's viewpoint in any election or referendum campaign.
Come again when there are no more reports of blatant election fraud (in one case even holding people at gunpoint) and never to meet repercussions, always committed by Erdoğan supporters.
Come again when not every single action of political dissidence like the Justice March is called "supporting terrorism".
Come again when we haven't just had the first anniversary of Turkey's state of emergency that lets Erdoğan go wild with purges and bills as he pleases.

Turkey can still breathe and wave for help but that doesn't mean Erdoğan isn't dragging us down under to drown us, and we have gulped down enough of the seawater of ignorance already.
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 07-17-2017 at 01:07 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 01:05 AM)

Originally Posted by Jackpot

Are you fucking serious right now?



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a6972356.html



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKBN14F0S6



https://cartoonistsrights.org/two-mo...facing-prison/



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...t-Erdogan.html



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36419723

And that's the tip of the iceberg of people who have been imprisoned due to Erdogan's thin skin. Not to mention journalists who dare to do their jobs. Such suppression has actually skyrocketed under him:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-to-go-ahead

Schoolchildren. Cartoonists. Poets. These are the enemy according to Erdogan. "Improvements" my ass.

It's ridiculous and awful, but it's not the same thing at all.
Erdogan was jailed because he read a political poem, not because he insulted the current head of state. Let's remember that it's forbidden in many western democracies like France. Somebody got 1 month of jail because he insulted Sarkozy. Another man was charged of a 100 euro fine for saying "Sarkozy, i see you".

It's equally bad and i condemn both, but it's not the same nature. Erdogan was jailed by strict arbitrary standards, not because he insulted somebody.
Stinkles
Clothed, sober, cooperative
(07-17-2017, 01:08 AM)
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Edit. Redacted. What's the point? I'm feeding some kind of weird bot at this point.


Btw Golden asserts that he is not even Turkish.
Last edited by Stinkles; 07-17-2017 at 01:12 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 01:11 AM)

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

You can be an Islamist by deliberately tying religion into your country's politics. Throwing a party member under the bus for being more overtly Islamist than you are doesn't mean you'd immediately become perfectly secular. Does invoking Islam as a central point of your political stance sound secular to you? Does making bigoted and judgmental statements on subjects like abortion and tying them to religion point, in any way, that Erdoğan is a person to be trusted with the presidency of any country? Can a President who permits the dismissal of evolution from high school curricula on the basis of "it's arguable and too complex" really ensure his country effectively implements secularism? Is a President who FORCIBLY BROADCASTS a political message through private communication channels AND mentions Allah in that message the sort of person that should rule a democratic and secular country?

Is USA a secular country ? I can totally see something like this happening in the States.
Mentioning Allah is worst than mentioning God ? In what sense ? God is everywhere in US politics, the country is still secular and democratic.

Secularism is not about not mentioning religion, or not having religion as the fundament of your political positionment.

About that political message broadcasted 1 year after the events, it's perfectly understandable. It's a major turn in turkish history. Of course, if you think it was a false flag by Erdogan himself there is no much to discuss...

Prayers about the coup is not political. There is nothing political about going down in the street and defending your elect governement against a military coup. It's patriotism and the defense of the democracy as a whole. It's why many anti-Erdogan have also protested and all political parties have sided against the coup.
I'll came back later to reply to your others questions.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 01:15 AM.
Stinkles
Clothed, sober, cooperative
(07-17-2017, 01:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon


Secularism is not about not mentioning religion, or not having religion as the fundament of your political positionment.

...

Ok golden. And you're not Turkish. Just a concerned person who doesn't have a horse in the race.

Secular - denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 01:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

It's ridiculous and awful, but it's not the same thing at all.
Erdogan was jailed because he read a political poem, not because he insulted the current head of state. Let's remember that it's forbidden in many western democracies like France. Somebody got 1 month of jail because he insulted Sarkozy. Another man was charged of a 100 euro fine for saying "Sarkozy, i see you".

It's equally bad and i condemn both, but it's not the same nature. Erdogan was jailed by strict arbitrary standards, not because he insulted somebody.

İnsulting somebody is a strict arbitrary standard. Don't try to paint Erdoğan as any sort of victim here. French laws have nothing to do with the issue at hand. If both are EQUALLY bad, then why are you trying to distinguish Erdoğan's reasons for imprisonment from those he himself charged?

Penguen, a humorous opposition newspaper, recently had to shut down after more than a decade of publication. Why? A huge amount of legal fees accrued from cases filed by Erdoğan and the AKP. That's doesnt sound much different to me than imprisonment for a political poem.

I'd also love to see the Evil Secular-led Turkish Government (tm) of the past starting a diplomatic crisis and throwing a temper tantrum with a close ally over a foreign satirist.

I love how you always play the semantics to excuse Erdoğan's actions and downplay his evil deeds, but when it comes to actual oppressive decisions and measures tsken by him it's always "yeah that's bad, BUT western country X does it too/ secular Turks are ignorant too/ but you can still buy opposition media!/Seculars did it in the past too!". You just shift the blame to secular Turks (because they're ignorant, or because secular governments did similar things in the past, et cetera), but you yourself are saying that "Erdoğan's gone" with a single election (and that seems to be solution enough for you) yet you STILL seem awfully fixated on governments that ended their rule at least FIFTEEN years ago. Most of your arguments boil down to "but seculars/the West does it as well", but those are not the democratic and secular authority in Turkey right now- why not spare your words and effort on calling attention to the flaws of Erdoğan's government instead? The reason is that you're being intellectually dishonest. When you're confronted with evidence that your dream underdog-Muslims-claim-power government does authoritarian and bigoted bullshit, you just say "that sucks" and move on to trying to undermine some other point. I don't know how much you realize it, but you're twisting and turning to portray an authoritarian and conservative Muslim government in the least negative light possible

Edit: thought this was a good point to stop, but hoo boy am I glad I'm not getting any sleep tonight. Here have we yet another golden egg.

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Is USA a secular country ? I can totally see something like this happening in the States.
Mentioning Allah is worst than mentioning God ? In what sense ? God is everywhere in US politics, the country is still secular and democratic.

Secularism is not about not mentioning religion, or not having religion as the fundament of your political positionment.

About that political message broadcasted 1 year after the events, it's perfectly understandable. It's a major turn in turkish history. Of course, if you think it was a false flag by Erdogan himself there is no much to discuss...

Prayers about the coup is not political. There is nothing political about going down in the street and defending your elect governement against a military coup. It's patriotism and the defense of the democracy as a whole. It's why many anti-Erdogan have also protested and all political parties have sided against the coup.
I'll came back later to reply to your others questions.

Regarding your first two points, I addressed those already: Even with your definition of secularism-semantics!- Erdoğan's behaviour (really fucking obviously, at that) aims to politicize Islam. That in itself should be a red flag. I'd have expected more nuance from someone studying theology (if I recall correctly) and claiming to support secular government. Erdoğan has also made it really clear that his religion justifies a lot of bigotry in his mind, and has no issues exploiting religion (which, I'd assume, should be offensive to any self-respecting believer).

I don't know about you, but I (alongside others) want my privacy respected. This includes NOT HAVING MY PERSONAL PHONE CALLS INTERCEPTED WITH ANY MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Read 1984. The telescreens. Read the first few pages of the book, ensure you understand what a telescreen is, then compare that with what you see here.

"Prayers about the coup is not political". Hahaha. Wow. Wooooow. Wooooooooooooow. This one is special. NINETY THOUSAND mosques are coordinating at once to read an irregular prayer to "celebrate" the very moment Erdoğan called the people to the streets. Mosques were used that very day last year to drive people to the streets. Do you believe that mosques were utilized solely because they have good speakers or something? Tying the mosques in to his call delivered a powerful message from the government: a Muslim should rally in the streets to defend the government.

Patriotism, IN ITSELF, is political! Any person who protested in the streets that day committed to a political belief and action. Namely, that the army must not interfere with the operation of its current government. For some, that held even if the ruler was leaning HEAVILY towards being an autocrat. It's fucking idiotic to suggest that prayers made to coincide with Erdoğan's statement aren't political in nature. It's mashing together supposedly secular politics and religious righteousness.
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 07-17-2017 at 01:46 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 01:57 AM)
You're saying that that kind of stuff cannot occur in a democratic/secular country, i'm pointing out that it does and it don't change the secular/democratic character of those country. Your statement just call for comparison. And also you cannot have your own definition of secularism and we should all subscribe to it. Speaking about God or using piety is not against secularism. Secularism is about the power structure, not the people using them.

I would point out the flaws of AKP/Erdogan if i was speaking to a pro-Erdogan audience, as i regularly do. Here on GAF, there is absolutely no need for it.

Political Islam is not different from political christianity. The party of Merkel is called Christian Union. Is this a red flag too ? It's why the term "islamist" don't mean much. You can't put in the same bag Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood or Khomeini. Every ideology is so different that you cannot group them together. There is nothing that point out that Erdogan will one day announce that the Turkish republic is over and now you will be ruled by the Diyanet (state-religious authority).

Patriotism is political, you're right. But i was speaking about partisan politics. It's perfectly fine that every church/mosque/whatever goes out to defend the society against a military coup. Everybody should stand against a military coup to defend an elected civil power. I would do so even to defend somebody of the "other side". To be clear, i rather have a CHP elected government than an AKP in office by a military coup. There is some issue who totally transcend the partisan politics and that call to every citizen, regardless of religious or political affiliation. Erdogan will remain an important figure in the history of modern Turkey for ever, not because of his affilation to AKP but because of the symbol he represent in Turkish history. Another military coup, but this time it failed because of popular opposition (and a part of the military of course).

About your questions:

2. Waiting on the proof that Zaman is a Gülen-run newspaper. Don't use a Turkish news source.

The BBC.


And a complete investigation, but in french.

4. Hoo boy, it's the "you have democratic elections so you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE JEOPARDIZATION OF DEMOCRACY WHATSOEVER!" argument once again.
Come again when suspicious power cuts during election day are no longer literally blamed on cats.
Come again when the opposition viewpoints are given an equal time of day as Erdoğan's viewpoint in any election or referendum campaign.
Come again when there are no more reports of blatant election fraud (in one case even holding people at gunpoint) and never to meet repercussions, always committed by Erdoğan supporters.
Come again when not every single action of political dissidence like the Justice March is called "supporting terrorism".
Come again when we haven't just had the first anniversary of Turkey's state of emergency that lets Erdoğan go wild with purges and bills as he pleases.

You have the right to criticize all those important breach and flaws of Turkish government. You have the absolute right to speak and fight against it. But it does not legitimate a military coup. It's a flawed democracy, not a dictatorship. A military coup will just turn orange into red.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 02:07 AM.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 02:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

You're saying that that kind of stuff cannot occur in a democratic/secular country, i'm pointing out that it does and it don't change the secular/democratic character of those country. Your statement just call for comparison. And also you cannot have your own definition of secularism and we should all subscribe to it. Speaking about God or using piety is not against secularism. Secularism is about the power structure, not the people using them.

I would point out the flaws of AKP/Erdogan if i was speaking to a pro-Erdogan audience, as i regularly does. Here on GAF, there is absolutely no need for it.

Political Islam is not different from political christianity. The party of Merkel is called Christian Union. Is this a red flag too ? It's why the term "islamist" don't mean much. You can't put in the same bag Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood or Khomeini. Every ideology is so different that you cannot group them together. There is nothing that point out that Erdogan will one day announce that the Turkish republic is over and now you will be ruled by the Diyanet (state-religious authority).

Patriotism is political, you're right. But i was speaking about partisan politics. It's perfectly fine that every church/mosque/whatever goes out to defend the society against a military coup. Everybody should stand against a military coup to defend an elected civil power. I would do so even to defend somebody of the "other side". To be clear, i rather have a CHP elected government than an AKP in office by a military coup.

Again, I know that Turkey is still a technically secular and democratic country. That does NOT mean that Erdoğan cannot pose any danger to these properties of a prospering democracy. Erdoğan CAN do undemocratic and non-secular things, and CAN be unfit to lead a secular country given his deeply religiously bigoted personality. That Turkey is still secular and democratic (to an extent) under Erdoğan doesn't mean we should ignore everything he's done to undermine those two traits of the Turkish Republic.

Religion and religious morality playing into politics is a global problem. I am as opposed to Political Islam as I am to Political Buddhism, Political Christianity, etc. If you find the specific term too vague (and therefore enough to dismiss any concern over Islamist rhetoric hacı a negative influence on the country), then let's go with "the politicization of Islam by Erdoğan in the Turkish Republic", or "TPOIBEITTR" for short. TPOIBEITTR is fucking disgusting because it radicalizes the pious population of the country and prioritizes religion over science and logic, leading to acts like the removal of evolution from school curricula and disproportionate funding to Diyanet, the Ministry of Religious Affairs. Are you done with any issues of semantics in this regard?

Secondly, no, I'd definitely not condone the influence of mosques in politics. Even during a coup, their interference leads to an association between the religion and the state. Even if they WERE used during the coup itself, there's no fucking reason to proceed with a ritual that includes the participation of NINETY THOUSAND MOSQUES. That is obvious politicization of religion, especially when you realize that opinions are split on the celebrations (and so the "defending the integrity of the elected state" excuse doesn't even apply).

Edit: Just going to quote this little bit.

You have the absolute right to speak and fight against it.

No, no I do not.

When peaceful protests are gassed,

When a march for justice (with TWO MILLION PEOPLE, MORE THAN 2% OF THE POPULATION) is denigrated as "supporting terrorism",

When we're the leading country in the amount of journalists we have jailed,

When the President himself has sued more than 1500 people for insulting him,

When a state of emergency lasts a year and causes a purge of 150 000 people,

My rights to speak and to act are not "absolute". My government tries to limit those rights. I am rendered unable to exercise these rights- therefore, they're not absolute rights for me.

If your only basis for me to be against this coup in principle is that it's against a democratic government, then we will have to disagree. Erdogan's democracy is not merely "flawed", it's EXTREMELY corrupt, one-sided, and distorted. I can still vote in elections rife with cheating, I can still participate in protests that will be forcibly dispersed. I can still participate in Turkish online places, with a looming threat of a lawsuit AND a myriad of banned websites like Pastebin or Imgur (not to mention your traffic is obviously monitored on some websites like Wikipedia).

You see, for me, Turkey is not a "flawed" democracy, it's a DYSFUNCTIONAL one.
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 07-17-2017 at 02:31 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:09 AM)
I think that you're so angry that you totally misread what i'm currently saying.
When i said that you have the absolute right to struggle and speak about it, i'm not saying that you the turkish state grant you that right, but that you have the moral right to do so: i said that because you accused me of wanting your silence because you were able to vote for CHP. I believe that you have every right to be angry, but this right don't extend over supporting military coup and supporting dictatorship in the name of secularism. I also recognize that the Turkish state is authoritarian by nature, way before Erdogan. Erdogan have a personal responsibility in many flaws of the turkish democracy at the moment, and the coup attempt made it worst.

I understand your views about religions and politics, but as i stated, Turkey is a diverse country, and everybody will have to live together. So religious people will continue to do politics even if you don't like it, like in any part of the world. I think it's really ingenuous to believe that someone can be christian/muslim/buddhist in its house and that will not guide his political beliefs. Religion is a complete worldview. Now, you cannot essentialize somebody because he is muslim. You can be muslim and fairly conservative but tolerant and not willing to force people to follow your views. I met a really great diversity of AKP voters in Turkey.

To be clear i'm not a secularist nor i am an islamist. I think that a system can be good in a place and bad in another. I do believe that we need a civil state that protect everybody regardless of their confessions/ethnicity.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 05:29 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:30 AM)
Middle Eastern supporters of Turkey's failed coup

About the evidences of an UAE and Egyptian involvement in the failed military coup. (to go back on the topic)

In June, emails leaked from the personal account of Abu Dhabi's ambassador to Washington, Yousef al Otaiba, revealed that the Gulf nation could have played a greater role in last summer's failed coup than originally anticipated.
The emails showed that Otaiba was in close contact with senior officials from the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), a US-based think-tank primarily financed by the pro-Israel businessman Sheldon Adelson. An exchange between the UAE ambassador and John Hannah, a senior counsellor at the foundation, provided valuable insights into Abu Dhabi's relationship with the coup plotters in Turkey.
In one of the leaked emails, Hannah, a former deputy national security adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney, sent Otaiba an article claiming that both the UAE and FDD were responsible for the July 15 military coup attempt in Turkey, saying he is "honoured to be in the UAE's company".
(...)
Also, in an article published by Middle East Eye in July last year, British journalist David Hearst claimed that the UAE had set aside significant funds to ensure that the coup attempt in Turkey would be successful. He alleged that Mohammed Dahlan, acting on behalf of the UAE government, delivered money to FETO operatives. Last month, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told the press that a Muslim country had spent $3bn on efforts to overthrow the Erdogan government, adding weight to the claims that the UAE funded last year's coup attempt.

Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 05:33 AM.
ClosingADoor
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:14 AM)
ClosingADoor's Avatar
100 years of secularism because Turkey feared that religion would be used for wrong and exactly what we are seeing now, but Golden_Pigeons solution is that "everybody will have to live together". Problem solved I guess.
Jackpot
Member
(07-17-2017, 11:23 AM)
Jackpot's Avatar

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

It's ridiculous and awful, but it's not the same thing at all.
Erdogan was jailed because he read a political poem, not because he insulted the current head of state.

"Denouncing the head of state isn't political at all!!!!!"

How do you even get all your weird mental gymnastics to line up in your head?

And are you intentionally ignoring the targeting of newspapers and opposition politicians?

Turkish opposition politician jailed for 25 years on spying charges

Enis Berberoğlu is first CHP lawmaker imprisoned since lifting of immunity last year, in move condemned as ‘intimidation’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nis-berberoglu

Nope, not political at all!

Erdogan was jailed by strict arbitrary standards, not because he insulted somebody.

*Irony meter explodes*
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:33 PM)

Originally Posted by ClosingADoor

100 years of secularism because Turkey feared that religion would be used for wrong and exactly what we are seeing now, but Golden_Pigeons solution is that "everybody will have to live together". Problem solved I guess.

It was an authoritarian secularism, and a very vertical one. There was no acknowledgment of the diversity of the turkish society. Now we got the backfire. I think it's a very moderate backfire, giving the violence and the radicalism of turkish blend of authoritarian secularism, even worse than the pahlavi in Iran.

"everybody will have to live together" go both side. Religious people should tolerate secular lifestyle and vice-versa.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 06:38 PM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:37 PM)

Originally Posted by Jackpot




https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nis-berberoglu

Nope, not political at all!



*Irony meter explodes*

It's not arbitrary since he was accused of leaking sensitive and classified video:

Berberoğlu, the first CHP lawmaker to be handed prison time since the lifting of parliamentary immunities last year, was accused of providing an opposition newspaper with video purporting to show Turkey’s intelligence agency trucking weapons into Syria.

What the difference between that and Snowden/Manning etc.. ? I mean, you can say that it's a great thing to do, that the state action should be exposed etc... but it's still a felony to publicize secret documents.

Edit: I do think it's condemnable that Erdogan press charges on people insulting him, so i don't have to justify it. If i follow the cases actually, he finally drop a good part of the cases. I don't think it have nothing to do with dictatorship either, many people don't know that it's actually illegal in most countries to insult someone.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 06:42 PM.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:37 PM)
Funyarinpa's Avatar

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

It was an authoritarian secularism, and a very vertical one. There was no acknowledgment of the diversity of the turkish society. Now we got the backfire. I think it's a very moderate backfire, giving the violence and the radicalism of turkish blend of authoritarian secularism, even worse than the pahlavi in Iran.

If you think anything about Turkey's current situation is "very moderate", hooo boy. Hoooo boy.

Edit: ^^^Let's see you justify that for all the insult cases out there as well.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 06:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

If you think anything about Turkey's current situation is "very moderate", hooo boy. Hoooo boy.

The islamic character of the AKP is very moderate. No mention of the shari'a whatsoever. It's on par with the Ennahda movement in Tunisia.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-17-2017 at 06:43 PM.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 06:54 PM)
Funyarinpa's Avatar

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

The islamic character of the AKP is very moderate. No mention of the shari'a whatsoever. It's on par with the Ennahda movement in Tunisia.

Okay guys I think I need a reality check here because I don't think literally making your audience chant "Allahu Akbar!" in a rally that's supposed to open an art exhibit suggests that anything about AKP's Islamism is "moderate". Islam is a central pillar of AKP's ideology, and also given other things like the spread of Imam Hatip schools, its one of AKP's prioritized agendas. That isn't "very moderate" to me.
GSG Flash
Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
(07-17-2017, 06:58 PM)
GSG Flash's Avatar
It was a pathetic attempt at a poorly planned coup that Erdogan used to his advantage to solidify his authoritarian rule. The only winner out of that coup attempt was Erdogan and the Turkish citizens were the losers.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:17 PM)

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Okay guys I think I need a reality check here because I don't think literally making your audience chant "Allahu Akbar!" in a rally that's supposed to open an art exhibit suggests that anything about AKP's Islamism is "moderate". Islam is a central pillar of AKP's ideology, and also given other things like the spread of Imam Hatip schools, its one of AKP's prioritized agendas. That isn't "very moderate" to me.

If for you "Allahu ackbar" is a sign of radicalism, everything muslim will be extreme anyway.

If you take all the political parties in the world who have some root in political islam, AKP is one of the more moderate. Even the Saadet Partisi is quite moderate, but it's the more extreme in the turkish political landscape. It's not AKP which is extremist, it's the turkish state which is extremely secularist.

Compare the AKP to the PLO (which is considered secular because of Hamas), and PLO is way more islamic than AKP.
Funyarinpa
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:31 PM)
Funyarinpa's Avatar

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

If for you "Allahu ackbar" is a sign of radicalism, everything muslim will be extreme anyway.

If you take all the political parties in the world who have some root in political islam, AKP is one of the more moderate. Even the Saadet Partisi is quite moderate, but it's the more extreme in the turkish political landscape. It's not AKP which is extremist, it's the turkish state which is extremely secularist.

Compare the AKP to the PLO (which is considered secular because of Hamas), and PLO is way more islamic than AKP.

I think we'll just be on permanently different wavelengths if you see religious chanting in a political meeting as anything but extreme.

How AKP fares compared to other Islamic parties doesn't matter, to me it's still unacceptable.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:44 PM)

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

I think we'll just be on permanently different wavelengths if you see religious chanting in a political meeting as anything but extreme.

How AKP fares compared to other Islamic parties doesn't matter, to me it's still unacceptable.

Of course we will ! And of you course you'll find this unacceptable.

The main issue i found in Turkey is that two kind of people live next to each others but are afraid of each others and are not willing to intermingle. For you, "Allahu Ackbar" is extreme because you live in the secular bubble. For the religious turks, you guys are just westernized and lost in dubious values. As a foreigner, i could evolve in both sphere and it was really great and it allow me to brake lot of prejudices, from both sides.
I feel that both the secular and the religious should intermingle and get to know each other better.
Jackpot
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

It's not arbitrary since he was accused of leaking sensitive and classified video:



What the difference between that and Snowden/Manning etc.. ? I mean, you can say that it's a great thing to do, that the state action should be exposed etc... but it's still a felony to publicize secret documents.

Edit: I do think it's condemnable that Erdogan press charges on people insulting him, so i don't have to justify it. If i follow the cases actually, he finally drop a good part of the cases. I don't think it have nothing to do with dictatorship either, many people don't know that it's actually illegal in most countries to insult someone.

And you fail to address the point again. How can you pretend "things have improved" when Erdogan himself has aggressively used a previously unused law to suppress dissent? You lament him being imprisoned for reading a poem but shrug off him doing the same to others. How many hundreds of political prisoners must there be before even your cognitive dissonance cracks?

All this effort, just to defend another run-of-the-mill autocrat.
Condom
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:08 PM)
Condom's Avatar

Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Compare the AKP to the PLO (which is considered secular because of Hamas), and PLO is way more islamic than AKP.

PLO is considered secular because of the socialist connection, not Hamas.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-18-2017, 02:49 AM)

Originally Posted by Condom

PLO is considered secular because of the socialist connection, not Hamas.

*I meant FATEH.
It have nothing socialist since the 90's and it would be considered islamist in Turkey or in Tunisia. Let's remember that Yasser Arafat was originally part of the Muslim Brotherhood. Since the 2000's, Fateh is going back to religious rhetoric to challenge Hamas claimed monopoly on religiosity.

Edit: (wiki)

The National Charter has no reference to religion. Under President Arafat, the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority adopted the 2003 Amended Basic Law, which stipulates Islam as the sole official religion in Palestine and the principles of Islamic sharia as a principal source of legislation.[22] The draft Constitution, which never materialized, contains the same provisions.[26][27] At the time, the PLC did not include a single Hamas member. The draft Constitution was formulated by the ″Constitutional Committee″, appointed with the approval of the PLO.[28][29]

It's why "Islamists" vs "secularists" is always relative. Assad is called a "secular ruler" but the syrian constitution state that islamic law is the principal fundament of law of Syria and that Islam is the official religion. The same goes about Saddam Hussein. Basically, after the 79 iranian revolution, everybody started to try to adopt a religious discourse.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-18-2017 at 06:27 AM.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-18-2017, 02:57 AM)

Originally Posted by Jackpot

And you fail to address the point again. How can you pretend "things have improved" when Erdogan himself has aggressively used a previously unused law to suppress dissent? You lament him being imprisoned for reading a poem but shrug off him doing the same to others. How many hundreds of political prisoners must there be before even your cognitive dissonance cracks?

All this effort, just to defend another run-of-the-mill autocrat.

It's better for many reasons i have cited before. Also you can check the various index about freedom in Turkey to see that it's not homogenous and that in many cases, it's an improvement. In some aspect, it have deteriorated.

Also, we can clearly separate the Erdogan before the Syrian crisis and after. So it's not all about Erdogan but about regional politics as well. It's not the same to rule during a favorable context (where AKP excelled in every aspect) and in a very harsh one, with the break of the PKK truce and the tensions with Russia, Iran and Syria. The failed coup made everything even worst.

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