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bigkrev
Member
(07-17-2017, 05:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

who knows friday is much more convenient than on the weekends imo.

This is going to be something that varies from person-to-person. I stopped going to FNM regularly because I and most of my friends started working full time 9-5s, and we stopped being able to go out on a random Tuesday Night, so Fridays and Saturday nights were reserved for going out and being with people, and not in a Card store till 10:30 PM. Now, when I play, it's in the Saturday afternoon event, which gives me the morning to do housework, and the whole night to do something else.

When I was in high school, I had a part time job that was noon to 6 on Saturday, so going to Friday Night Magic was actually something that worked for me and was something that I looked forward to.
Justin
Member
(07-17-2017, 05:21 PM)

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

who knows friday is much more convenient than on the weekends imo.

What they should do is push the sealed league a lot more as that seems like a perfect event for beginners. You get to learn how to build a deck and tweek/improve it over the course of several weeks while also getting in a bunch of games and learning how the cards work. In my area there are 5 LGSs within 15 miles of me that advertised it for Amonkhet and none of them fired off. The employee of one of the stores I went to told me no one signed up because there were no prizes. I guess they need to push events for people who just like playing the game.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:22 PM)

Originally Posted by bigkrev

This is going to be something that varies from person-to-person. I stopped going to FNM regularly because I and most of my friends started working full time 9-5s, and we stopped being able to go out on a random Tuesday Night, so Fridays and Saturday nights were reserved for going out and being with people, and not in a Card store till 10:30 PM. Now, when I play, it's in the Saturday afternoon event, which gives me the morning to do housework, and the whole night to do something else.

When I was in high school, I had a part time job that was noon to 6 on Saturday, so going to Friday Night Magic was actually something that worked for me and was something that I looked forward to.

of course most fnms fire rather late as a result but then you can attend right after work/classes instead of having to go out to play magic.

Originally Posted by Justin

What they should do is push the sealed league a lot more as that seems like a perfect event for beginners. You get to learn how to build a deck and tweek/improve it over the course of several weeks while also getting in a bunch of games and learning how the cards work. In my area there are 5 LGSs within 15 miles of me that advertised it for Amonkhet and none of them fired off. The employee of one of the stores I went to told me no one signed up because there were no prizes. I guess they need to push events for people who just like playing the game.

they used to make tokens for store leagues. I still need these since lady tokens are pretty much always better.

Joe Molotov
(07-17-2017, 05:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Justin

What they should do is push the sealed league a lot more as that seems like a perfect event for beginners. You get to learn how to build a deck and tweek/improve it over the course of several weeks while also getting in a bunch of games and learning how the cards work. In my area there are 5 LGSs within 15 miles of me that advertised it for Amonkhet and none of them fired off. The employee of one of the stores I went to told me no one signed up because there were no prizes. I guess they need to push events for people who just like playing the game.

All the stores around here that fired just ended up with everyone losing interest after the first week.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:38 PM)

Originally Posted by MaRo

and the artificial nature of the Eternals felt pretty blue

of course it did
Poodlestrike
Banned
(07-17-2017, 05:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

of course it did

I feel like the only way "artificiality" really comes into play mechanics wise is Artifacts. Blue is more about science, which the Eternals are most definitely not an example of. If/when we go back to Innistrad, I could see them doing like... a Frankenstein faction that's blue. Or Blue/Black, at any rate. This isn't that.
divisionbyzorro
Member
(07-17-2017, 05:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by OnPoint

Was just thinking about my old Naya Pod list in Standard around 2013 and man... I miss Pod

I completely understand and agree with the banning of Pod in Modern, but I agree - that card enabled some really sweet decks.
OnPoint
Member
(07-17-2017, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by divisionbyzorro

I completely understand and agree with the banning of Pod in Modern, but I agree - that card enabled some really sweet decks.

Yeah, it was just too consistent and had an answer for everything. I miss it, but I totally get it.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(07-17-2017, 08:21 PM)
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Interesting datum from the Daily Update today:

The data just doesn't bear that out. While I can't Give you the exact numbers, I can tell you this—in June, when Aether Hub was the FNM promo, attendance was not noticeably different than January, when Noose Constrictor was the promo.

Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 08:39 PM)
it's motherfucking summer, attendance dropped like a rock once you could go swimming till 8 in the evening.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:42 PM)
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But the data would totally bear it out for the Serum Visions and Path promos right? This sounds like a cherry pick. It also sounds like willfully ignoring momentum and outside pressures. Or at least not being willing to acknowledge it.

I'm waiting for someone in Wotc to acknowledge the role EDH plays in all of this. To the point that I almost wonder if its a negative feedback loop. Standard sucks, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards modifies standard, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards bans cards to try and keep people, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards drops common form of support for standard events, people leave for EDH/Modern.

Its the old thing of 'wizards will never reprint X reprintable legacy card because they don't want legacy to be accessible because they need people to spend money on standard'. The draining of standard is totally a consequence of having easily accessible eternal formats because they'll always be more cost effective than standard.
kirblar
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:43 PM)
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They've got data going back years. If it tells them "no one is coming to FNM for the promo", then doing foil basics and tokens makes a lot more sense.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 08:47 PM)

Originally Posted by kirblar

They've got data going back years. If it tells them "no one is coming to FNM for the promo", then doing foil basics and tokens makes a lot more sense.

and yet they picked 2 recent months with questionable comparability.
alternade
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:54 PM)

Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

But the data would totally bear it out for the Serum Visions and Path promos right? This sounds like a cherry pick. It also sounds like willfully ignoring momentum and outside pressures. Or at least not being willing to acknowledge it.

I'm waiting for someone in Wotc to acknowledge the role EDH plays in all of this. To the point that I almost wonder if its a negative feedback loop. Standard sucks, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards modifies standard, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards bans cards to try and keep people, people leave for EDH/Modern, wizards drops common form of support for standard events, people leave for EDH/Modern.

Its the old thing of 'wizards will never reprint X reprintable legacy card because they don't want legacy to be accessible because they need people to spend money on standard'. The draining of standard is totally a consequence of having easily accessible eternal formats because they'll always be more cost effective than standard.

If their bottom line is to make money and standard is in free fall and EDH is consistently rising, just make EDH a sanctioned format, give it a "pro-tour" level event and tournaments and print supplemental booster packs alongside the commander decks. Its not that hard.
OnPoint
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by alternade

If their bottom line is to make money and standard is in free fall and EDH is consistently rising, just make EDH a sanctioned format, give it a "pro-tour" level event and tournaments and print supplemental booster packs alongside the commander decks. Its not that hard.

God no. Please don't ruin EDH and its casual nature by rewarding a streamlining of the format by pros.

Standard is in freefall because it has sucked for multiple blocks/years. Fix that and draw people back.
blindrocket
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:56 PM)
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Not sure if anyone follows Duel Commander anymore a.k.a. French, but Geist was banned as Commander. So was baby Jace and Bruse Tarl.

Emrakul Aeons Torn and Polymorph banned.

Ancient Tomb, Mind Twist and Fastbond are unbanned.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:56 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

They've got data going back years. If it tells them "no one is coming to FNM for the promo", then doing foil basics and tokens makes a lot more sense.

I mean, then they could have painted a slightly better picture ya? If they have years worth of data why pick the most recent two months? If they came out and were like Aether Hub did just as well as Path in driving attendance then I'd throw in the towel on it. It's kinda obvious that isn't the case though.

They've spent so much time putting out crap promos that they've built the expectation of crap promos and one good promo isn't going to fix that. Momentum is a thing.

Originally Posted by alternade

If their bottom line is to make money and standard is in free fall and EDH is consistently rising, just make EDH a sanctioned format, give it a "pro-tour" level event and tournaments and print supplemental booster packs alongside the commander decks. Its not that hard.

I don't want it to be super sanctioned. That would ruin the format. But wizards did start doing the 1v1 mtgo league so they're clearly thinking about it.

Originally Posted by OnPoint

God no. Please don't ruin EDH and its casual nature by rewarding a streamlining of the format by pros.

Standard is in freefall because it has sucked for multiple blocks/years. Fix that and draw people back.

The problem is they have to make it un-suck for an equal amount of years to rebuild the standard audience. Not going to happen overnight.
Violet_0
Banned
(07-17-2017, 08:57 PM)
competitive EDH is the worst thing ever
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(07-17-2017, 08:57 PM)
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Fatal Push promo is gonna bring the boys to the yard tho
kirblar
Member
(07-17-2017, 08:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Violet_0

competitive EDH is the worst thing ever

But regular EDH exists!
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 08:59 PM)

Originally Posted by kirblar

But regular EDH exists!

Bolas' gift to the world
FreedomFrisbee
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:02 PM)
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I don't even particularly like 1v1 edh. It'd be interesting if they made a format that changed some of my issues with it, but it'd get dangerously close to hearthstone-ifying the game. Say, 60 card singleton decks with 1 commander. Playing 100 card decks in a 1v1 format irl is kind of a pain in the ass, but thats just me.
Poppy
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:04 PM)
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fastbond being allowed sounds heinous to me
OnPoint
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by kirblar

But regular EDH exists!

Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:06 PM)

Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

I don't even particularly like 1v1 edh. It'd be interesting if they made a format that changed some of my issues with it, but it'd get dangerously close to hearthstone-ifying the game. Say, 60 card singleton decks with 1 commander. Playing 100 card decks in a 1v1 format irl is kind of a pain in the ass, but thats just me.

I think there's an elegance to 1v1 highlander I don't understand the idea of 1v1 commander. The whole idea of having a commander is way too powerful for a competitive format.
Imperfected
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:07 PM)

Originally Posted by Poodlestrike

I feel like the only way "artificiality" really comes into play mechanics wise is Artifacts. Blue is more about science, which the Eternals are most definitely not an example of. If/when we go back to Innistrad, I could see them doing like... a Frankenstein faction that's blue. Or Blue/Black, at any rate. This isn't that.

They, uh, already did a Frankenstein faction. They're called Blue/Black Zombies.

What did you think things like Gisa and Geralf, Prized Amalgam, etc. were all about?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
(07-17-2017, 09:08 PM)
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I don't even know how Fastbond made it past Unlimited.
SigmasonicX
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Angry Grimace

I don't even know how Fastbond made it past Unlimited.

But you have to pay life!
It does amuse me just how much life gain was valued in the early game.
Imperfected
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:16 PM)
It's a good thing they didn't let you gain more than one life, or you'd be popping off.

But yeah, early on in the game they greatly undervalued card draw and greatly overvalued life gain/damage prevention.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(07-17-2017, 09:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

and yet they picked 2 recent months with questionable comparability.

Yeah, because everyone would throw a fit if they used examples from over a year ago.

Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

I'm waiting for someone in Wotc to acknowledge the role EDH plays in all of this.

What would this look like? I mean, the overall popularity of different formats is certainly a big factor in LGS OP structure, but I think it's a few steps removed from stuff like "what promos should we do for tournaments."

Its the old thing of 'wizards will never reprint X reprintable legacy card because they don't want legacy to be accessible because they need people to spend money on standard'.

This thing was wrong from the moment people started saying it, though.

Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

I mean, then they could have painted a slightly better picture ya?

FWIW, the reason we have to put up with half-explanations every time some controversial new change gets made is that when even totally reasonable explanations are offered for things they get deluged with this kind of "well they must be maliciously lying!" silliness.
FreedomFrisbee
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by charlequin

What would this look like? I mean, the overall popularity of different formats is certainly a big factor in LGS OP structure, but I think it's a few steps removed from stuff like "what promos should we do for tournaments."

FWIW, the reason we have to put up with half-explanations every time some controversial new change gets made is that when even totally reasonable explanations are offered for things they get deluged with this kind of "well they must be maliciously lying!" silliness.

I meant how EDH is contributing to the general downfall of standard, not how it relates to FNM promos. Though it will be interesting to see how/if Wotc decides to 'steer into the skid' as it were with EDH.

They give us half explanations all the time because there are clear corporate reasons to be doing what they're doing and clear corporate reasons to not publicly admit why they're doing it.
DrArchon
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Imperfected

It's a good thing they didn't let you gain more than one life, or you'd be popping off.

But yeah, early on in the game they greatly undervalued card draw and greatly overvalued life gain/damage prevention.

Yep. Easiest comparison is Ancestral Recall vs Healing Salve.

"Draw 3 vs Gain 3/Prevent 3. That's totally fair, right?"
divisionbyzorro
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:38 PM)
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To be fair, Garfield knew those cards weren't on equal footing. He just thought that rarity was a legitimate balancing mechanism - Recall was rare and Salve was common.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:39 PM)

Originally Posted by charlequin

Yeah, because everyone would throw a fit if they used examples from over a year ago.

maybe that just means it's inherently a bad comparison to make if you can't find suitable data.

Originally Posted by divisionbyzorro

To be fair, Garfield knew those cards weren't on equal footing. He just thought that rarity was a legitimate balancing mechanism - Recall was rare and Salve was common.

but dark ritual, giant growth and lightning bolt were also common.
charlequin
is not aware of current grape prices
(07-17-2017, 09:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

I meant how EDH is contributing to the general downfall of standard, not how it relates to FNM promos.

I'm not sure it's really that big a contributor. Modern is definitely going to have more replacement value as it's another competitive constructed format you can play in big OP events. EDH really is only gonna peel off people who were already fundamentally dissatisfied with Standard regardless of the quality of a given iteration of the format.

They give us half explanations all the time because there are clear corporate reasons to be doing what they're doing and clear corporate reasons to not publicly admit why they're doing it.

WotC is orders of magnitude more forthcoming about business decisions and internal logic than most other comparable companies, it's a little absurd to call them out for lying every time they share something that doesn't exactly match the general preconceptions on the topic.

Originally Posted by Familienoberhauptvogel

maybe that just means it's inherently a bad comparison to make if you can't find suitable data.

No, 90% of people who care about the topic will be satisfied with this as an explanation regardless of whether it changes their minds, and the 10% of miserable internet fans who complain about everything would already complain.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 09:52 PM)

Originally Posted by charlequin

No, 90% of people who care about the topic will be satisfied with this as an explanation regardless of whether it changes their minds, and the 10% of miserable internet fans who complain about everything would already complain.

so state of standard and month of the year had no impact on attendance?
Ashodin
Member
(07-17-2017, 09:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by charlequin

Interesting datum from the Daily Update today:

Huh. Every week aether hub was there we had huge attendance.
alternade
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:01 PM)

Originally Posted by blindrocket

Not sure if anyone follows Duel Commander anymore a.k.a. French, but Geist was banned as Commander. So was baby Jace and Bruse Tarl.

Emrakul Aeons Torn and Polymorph banned.

Ancient Tomb, Mind Twist and Fastbond are unbanned.

What? Why? Is he too aggressive?


Originally Posted by Violet_0

competitive EDH is the worst thing ever

How is it any different than modern or legacy? No one bringing a cat token or their favorite UB mill deck would be expected to make it past round 1 in a legacy tournament.

There's always going to be a place for casual magic, regardless of format. Making EDH sanctioned and bringing into the fold under WOTC I think is better for the game long term. Eventually there is going to be a divide with Sheldon and his council and how wizards see how the game should evolve and lets be real, Wizards own the game so they have the power here.
Justin
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:06 PM)
Ban EDH outright!
Infinite Stars
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:09 PM)
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Sheldon and the EDH Council are a bunch of casuals who don't realize that the underlying problems of EDH(IE Mana Rocks like Ring/Crypt/Vault) are creating such a ridiculous divide between casual and Competitive because it's not fun for anyone to have a Nahiri Precon be in the same pod with Saskia Pod/UG Goodstuff.
Giant Panda
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:17 PM)
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They need to ban Sol Ring and Rhystic Study. As a start. Also if you have a bunch of tutors in your deck you're doing EDH wrong.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
(07-17-2017, 10:26 PM)

Originally Posted by Giant Panda

They need to ban Sol Ring and Rhystic Study. As a start. Also if you have a bunch of tutors in your deck you're doing EDH wrong.

what's a tutor and what isn't?
OnPoint
Member
(07-17-2017, 10:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Infinite Stars

Sheldon and the EDH Council are a bunch of casuals who don't realize that the underlying problems of EDH(IE Mana Rocks like Ring/Crypt/Vault) are creating such a ridiculous divide between casual and Competitive because it's not fun for anyone to have a Nahiri Precon be in the same pod with Saskia Pod/UG Goodstuff.

To be fair that Nahiri precon is straight garbage against every deck in its release group, let alone anything else.
FreedomFrisbee
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(07-17-2017, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by charlequin

I'm not sure it's really that big a contributor. Modern is definitely going to have more replacement value as it's another competitive constructed format you can play in big OP events. EDH really is only gonna peel off people who were already fundamentally dissatisfied with Standard regardless of the quality of a given iteration of the format.

But that's the thing, people are fundamentally dissatisfied with standard as a default. Nobody actually wants to have to pay annually to keep up. Nobody ever has. Standard, in any iteration across any card game, only exists because the rights holder wants to enforce it (plenty of reasons why they would want to). EDH actively undermines wizard's ability to force people to play standard.

This is a reddit survey that did the rounds a couple months ago. 2000 or so respondents. Not a complete picture but a picture, and would certainly be better with more years to compare it to. My general inclination is to assume that standard has lost share to EDH and Modern. Its a double pronged thing, Modern fills the competitive needs of standard at better-over-time price, and EDH fills the casual needs of standard at staggeringly better-over-time price.
Yeef
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(07-17-2017, 10:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by alternade

How is it any different than modern or legacy?

It's singleton. Trying to make a format that specifically designed to increase variance and slow the game down into a competitive format seems like a bad route to take, both from a gameplay standpoint and a logistical standpoint. Trying to finish a best-of-3 set of EDH games on a normal round timer would lead to a lot of matches going to time, I'd imagine.
Santiako
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(07-17-2017, 10:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

But that's the thing, people are fundamentally dissatisfied with standard as a default. Nobody actually wants to have to pay annually to keep up. Nobody ever has. Standard, in any iteration across any card game, only exists because the rights holder wants to enforce it (plenty of reasons why they would want to). EDH actively undermines wizard's ability to force people to play standard.

You couldn't be farther off here to be honest. You have to pay annualy to keep up in every format and standard is the preferred format for many people since it changes dramatically every three months, keeping it fresh (last 18 months aside, where it has been a shit show).
Daedardus
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(07-17-2017, 10:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by FreedomFrisbee

But that's the thing, people are fundamentally dissatisfied with standard as a default. Nobody actually wants to have to pay annually to keep up. Nobody ever has. Standard, in any iteration across any card game, only exists because the rights holder wants to enforce it (plenty of reasons why they would want to). EDH actively undermines wizard's ability to force people to play standard.



This is a reddit survey that did the rounds a couple months ago. 2000 or so respondents. Not a complete picture but a picture, and would certainly be better with more years to compare it to. My general inclination is to assume that standard has lost share to EDH and Modern. Its a double pronged thing, Modern fills the competitive needs of standard at better-over-time price, and EDH fills the casual needs of standard at staggeringly better-over-time price.

Modern is a non-rotating format but it does surely shift a lot. Standard decks are usually a lot cheaper and they cost about the same as it does to maintain a Modern deck. Modern just has many staples that continue to fetch a high price, but don't think you'll always be running the same deck for many years.
Poppy
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(07-17-2017, 10:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Yeef

It's singleton. Trying to make a format that specifically designed to increase variance and slow the game down into a competitive format seems like a bad route to take, both from a gameplay standpoint and a logistical standpoint. Trying to finish a best-of-3 set of EDH games on a normal round timer would lead to a lot of matches going to time, I'd imagine.

meh i think theres enough redundancy in cards such that competitive commander is generally not that slow of a format. i was watching lsv play when everyone was either on baral or vial smasher and it was like turn 4 ggs
FreedomFrisbee
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(07-17-2017, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Santiako

You couldn't be farther off here to be honest. You have to pay annualy to keep up in every format and standard is the preferred format for many people since it changes dramatically every three months, keeping it fresh (last 18 months aside, where it has been a shit show).

You're telling me people actually want to pay all the time to play the game at a base level? And that you have to pay to keep up with EDH somehow?

Originally Posted by Daedardus

Modern is a non-rotating format but it does surely shift a lot. Standard decks are usually a lot cheaper and they cost about the same as it does to maintain a Modern deck. Modern just has many staples that continue to fetch a high price, but don't think you'll always be running the same deck for many years.

Shifting doesn't mean you have to completely re-buy a deck. Even banning twin doesn't negate owning the tarns, vents, snapcasters and the like. A competitive player WILL spend more money over time on standard then they will on modern. Never mind that you're completely ignoring the EDH side of the equation.
ultron87
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(07-17-2017, 10:54 PM)
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I feel like EDH brings in a pretty different kind of player then Standard/Modern does.

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