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Funyarinpa
Banned
(07-14-2017, 07:07 PM)
Hi guys.

Tomorrow's the anniversary of last year's coup attempt here in Turkey, and Erdoğan's goons are especially excited, so something has been on my mind.

In Turkey, people of all political affiliations agree that Fethullah Gülen (FETÖ, an Islamic cleric with a vast underground organization within Turkey's governmental institutions) is behind last year's coup attempt.

However, the international opinion seems to be that this is an allegation only on Erdoğan's part, and it's seen as more likely to be headed by Erdoğan.

The two sound equally plausible to me (and Erdoğan is at fault either way), but I don't know which one is true. Why is the FETÖ possibility entertained/accepted so little internationally?

P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer? That's pretty much the universal consensus here in Turkey, but I want to hear what you all think.

Edit: bolded the latter question because wondering if I'm sympathizing with terrorists is... Troubling to sya the least
Last edited by Funyarinpa; 07-14-2017 at 07:15 PM.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
(07-14-2017, 07:11 PM)
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I think both are potentially true.

Erdoğan definitely wanted it to happen, and may have essentially set-up the opposition into thinking it'd work and coming out of the woodwork, and then cracked down on them.

But I think most think he was pulling the strings at some level.
Xando
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:12 PM)
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It was a poorly planned coup that gave Erdogan the power to start a stalin like purge, wage open war with the kurds and turn the country away from democracy.


I’m not sure if he didn’t have a hand in it but i don’t want to spread any conspiracies. Let’s say he benefited from it a bit too much
Hollywood Duo
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:13 PM)
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Here in the US it might as well have not even happened. No one cares.
Betty
Banned
(07-14-2017, 07:14 PM)
A missed opportunity to get rid of Erdogan.

but also

Another potential civil war like Syria averted since the coup failed terribly and the government quickly took back control.

I don't think Erdogan headed it, too many people were imprisoned & killed attempting the coup for him to be behind it, I think it was a genuine attempt.
felipeko
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:15 PM)
The whole way this has happened was just strange, a coup in a friday night, holding just a few public buildings, Erdoğan going to TV - which should be one of the first things targeted by a coup.

Everything about the night of the coup was already very strange, but what happens after is way more telling. Erdoğan was ready with a list of i don't remember how many thousand people to fire/imprision in one week. That's absurd to think he wasn't ready for it.
johnny956
(07-14-2017, 07:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by felipeko

The whole way this has happened was just strange, a coup in a friday night, holding just a few public buildings, Erdoğan going to TV - which should be one of the first things targeted by a coup.

Everything about the night of the coup was already very strange, but what happens after is way more telling. Erdoğan was ready with a list of i don't remember how many thousand people to fire/imprision in one week. That's absurd to think he wasn't ready for it.

Yup I'm going with staged for sure
Moff
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:18 PM)
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my first impression was that it was staged by Erdogan, but then I read that Gülen apparently has a CIA background so nothing is off the table
Drkirby
Corporate Apologist
(07-14-2017, 07:19 PM)
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It was staged by Erdogan in order for him to justify his consolidation of power.
Steel
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:19 PM)
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I wouldn't say it's for sure a false flag(Or even particularly likely to be) but the idea that Gulen was behind it is pretty far-fetched. Seems like a convenient scapegoat that allowed Erdogan to springboard into mass imprisonment of detractors.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
(07-14-2017, 07:21 PM)
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P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer?

If it does, I'm one too.
Kabouter
Euro as Hell, Election Oracle Extraordinaire
(07-14-2017, 07:23 PM)
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My first impression was that it was a rushed and sloppy attempt by people who discovered/suspected they were about to be forced from their positions by Erdogan rather than a well and long planned affair. As for who it was, I couldn't tell you. Given that I don't know what the alternative would have been then, I don't wish it had succeeded.
Hesemonni
Junior Member
(07-14-2017, 07:24 PM)
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Oh, you mean the night when Turkey went down the shitter for good?
daviyoung
aka Theakins Buttleworth
(07-14-2017, 07:24 PM)
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I'm always up for an uprising but really had no idea of the circumstances. Then I heard it was quashed by the regime and felt disappointed. I've since forgotten all about it.
Funyarinpa
Banned
(07-14-2017, 07:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Hesemonni

Oh, you mean the night when Turkey went down the shitter for good?

Yup, tens of thousands people fired and/or jailed since, and they're STILL considering to extend the state of emergency declared back then (which lets Erdocuck pretty much rule by signing bills, btw)
Muffin1611
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:29 PM)
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I don't wish it succeeded, no. I can't really imagine that a military regime would have been the better option.

Better would have been it not happening in the first place, it enabled Erdogan on too much things. It's really the night I remember as the point where Turkey started going off the path of a democracy.

Not sure who's behind it. Erdogan may have made them believe they'd succeed, or he may even pushed things in motion in some way, but I don't really want to make conspiracies.

German view here, btw.
Dan27
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:32 PM)
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I mean, the thread is still here for it isnt it?

It was a mess of an "uprising" that ended up giving Erdogan more power.

I think from the reaction I saw, there were glimpses of optimism when it all started, but once it all turned out like the mess it was, the realisation that this gave Erdogan an excuse to purge to his heart's content hit home for a fairly large number in the international community.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
(07-14-2017, 07:33 PM)
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Erdogan was behind it 100% as an excuse to purge those who were against him.

There has been a lot of written about it as well. Some with sources citing it was all an inside job, if you will.

Also, if you have a coup that wants to capture a leader...you don't start the coup while the leader is publicly vacationing somewhere. LOL

100% BS. Turkey, as a nation, has once again been setback for all that they've accomplished up until that sack of shit took power.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:35 PM)
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P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer?

Not really, since it's widely believed that the coup was an internal job anyway.
Lukas Japonicus
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:35 PM)
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Only that it was poorly planned and executed. Forgot about it in a mater of days. The only thing I remember from time to time is the video of a tank running people over and that one dude getting sliced in half as he's squashed against the hard shoulder.
The Albatross
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:35 PM)
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For an American my conspiracy theory is that Erdogan was complicit in the coup attempt as an excuse to crack down on dissidents. That was it was seemingly so poorly planned, virtually everyone was arrested, and it was immediately followed up by baseless claims that Turkish Ex-pats living in America had orchestrated the whole thing makes it sound ridiculous to me. Also, pro-Erdogan mobs seemingly took to the streets too quickly for something that was supposed to be out of nowhere. This is my pet conspiracy theory though, it's not entirely widely held in the West.

The general consensus is that it was a poorly planned military coup that Erdogan has since used to shore up support and crack down on dissidents. Trump, being a strongman, is probably empathetic to Erdogan though Erdogan would do well to take the Putin path with trump, praising him as a strong man, instead of treating Trump like other American presidents.

Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer? That's pretty much the universal consensus here in Turkey, but I want to hear what you all think

Absolutely not. Every Turkish American person I know wishes the coup had ousted Erdogan. The Turkish military are not terrorists, and if this was a coup by Turkish military leaders, then it's not a terrorist coup. Further, advocates of regime change in your own country (or elsewhere) are not terrorists. Terrorists are people who target civilians. Those supporting the coup attempt in Turkey last year were not targeting civilians.
Last edited by The Albatross; 07-14-2017 at 07:40 PM.
tearsintherain
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:37 PM)
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Probably 90% of Americans would have no idea what you are talking about or who Erdogan is.

I don't think necessarily you are a terrorist sympathizer if you wish the coup succeeded. Enemy of my enemy, any path to success, etc. If Erdogan really sucks as a leader then even unsavory atttempts to remove him from power would be considered a victory. The problem is of course that what replaces him could be vastly worse.

I wonder how many people in Iraq, who are still alive, now wish Saddam Hussein had never been removed from power.
michaelius
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa


P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer? That's pretty much the universal consensus here in Turkey, but I want to hear what you all think.

Depends on who was behind coup - if it was another Islamist faction like Feto than yes. If this was coup done in name of restoring Ataturk values of secular Turkey no.

But I think it was false flag operation most likely or at least done by "useful idiots" who were inspired by political police.
Jackpot
Member
(07-14-2017, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by johnny956

Yup I'm going with staged for sure

No need for stupid false-flag conspiracies when incompetence will do. They gambled by doing it before they were ready or they had cemented support because they were facing investigation and Erdogan was out of the country. They also showed completely outmoded thinking by only locking down the state broadcaster like it was 1990.

Seriously, it's like if anyone shows a degree of incompetence or some villain unintentionally benefits from something people immediately cry "Reichstag! Reichstag!"
Funyarinpa
Banned
(07-14-2017, 07:48 PM)

Originally Posted by The Albatross


Absolutely not. Every Turkish American person I know wishes the coup had ousted Erdogan. The Turkish military are not terrorists, and if this was a coup by Turkish military leaders, then it's not a terrorist coup. Further, advocates of regime change in your own country (or elsewhere) are not terrorists. Terrorists are people who target civilians. Those supporting the coup attempt in Turkey last year were not targeting civilians.

Thanks, that reassures me. One thing, though: more than 250 people died and many more were wounded while defending against the coup. So the coup did get violent.
RamzaIsCool
The Amiga Brotherhood
(07-14-2017, 07:58 PM)
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This wasn't a coup, it was an uprising of certain elements within the military in a last ditch effort before they got booted. It was widely reported that in early August of 2016 around 600 presumely "Gülen" linked high ranked military personel would be expelled.

Since the 17/25 december 2013 corruption case Erdoğan was trying to purge all Gülen elements from the state apperatus. Back then Gülen had alot of power within the police forces and when the fallout with Erdoğan occured he basically leaked all the shit he got on Erdoğan. That "soft coup" failed and sparked an allout war between Gülen and Erdogan.

A few years before that there was this thing called the Ergenekon/ Balyoz case where alot of Secular/ Kemalist generals were imprissont on false charges. This was all orchestrated by Gülen and the AKP (Erdo and Gülen were still buddies back then) to bring down the secular establishment. This case lead to the appointment of alot of Gülen people to high ranked positions within the military.
Adam_Vania
Banned
(07-14-2017, 08:18 PM)
it exposes the ludicracy of US foregin relations and one of the reasons i didnt vote Clinton was her support of this style of warfare, of backing terrorists to fight terrorists. the US is both at war and not at war depending on what is politically convenient.

this is all standard US operating procedure. throwing guns and money at a problem of our own making. look at Operation Cyclone in the 80s, when we fought the Russians by creating the Taliban.
IaN_GAF
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:20 PM)
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I make it a thing to not trust dictators.
rambis
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:26 PM)
I've never heard it discussed here in the US.
El Topo
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by The Albatross

Absolutely not. Every Turkish American person I know wishes the coup had ousted Erdogan. The Turkish military are not terrorists, and if this was a coup by Turkish military leaders, then it's not a terrorist coup. Further, advocates of regime change in your own country (or elsewhere) are not terrorists. Terrorists are people who target civilians. Those supporting the coup attempt in Turkey last year were not targeting civilians.

They might not be terrorists, given the strictest definition, but the disposal of a democratically* elected government is not exactly something I would cheer for either, even if the country has since slipped into an autocracy.
The glorification of the Turkish military and its (historic) role is also something that's very problematic in the whole discussion. Downright disgusting at times actually.

*Debatable, given the election.
Last edited by El Topo; 07-14-2017 at 09:51 PM.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
(07-14-2017, 08:28 PM)
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Junior officer coups are unlikely to succeed which means they are almost always a miscalculation. The speed with which the coup failed indicates it wasn't even close. That Erdogan happened to be nowhere near the capital is a bizarre detail -- a successful coup would certainly need to arrest or kill Erdogan, so performing one while he is absent makes no sense. The person who has more to gain from this miscalculation is Erdogan, not Gulen. This is of course not dispositive, it's entirely possible the planners were just bad at their jobs, but in the absence of reliable reporting, I know where my prior is on who to blame.

Side note: the scapegoating of this coup attempt as a premise to reintroduce the death penalty is barbaric and a further erosion of Turkish liberalism; a naked consolidation of power by an autocrat. Erdogan is not a legitimate leader, so a coup against him is not intrinsically illegitimate.
BossDarkseid
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Betty

A missed opportunity to get rid of Erdogan.

but also

Another potential civil war like Syria averted since the coup failed terribly and the government quickly took back control.

I don't think Erdogan headed it, too many people were imprisoned & killed attempting the coup for him to be behind it, I think it was a genuine attempt.

Probaby a good point. As shitty as it may seem, something arguably far worse was averted. Calling it the lesser of two evils sound bizarre when one of the options is Erdogan : /
Yoshi
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:30 PM)
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I can just say what I think: Those dummies should have first killed Erdogan and then rescued Turkey.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:30 PM)
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The US very rarely knows anything about international politics outside of stupid talking points.

My opinion as an American is that Erdogan set it up one way or another to cement his status as a newfound dictator. He's tearing Turkey apart at an alarming rate and is probably working to fix the upcoming elections as we speak. It's yet another disturbing reminder of how fast a nation can go to shit if the wrong person gets into power.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:31 PM)
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"Turkey? It's a country and a food? Huh."
-American view
Pbae
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by rambis

I've never heard it discussed here in the US.

The news media here gobble gobbled it up.

It had a real significance b/c of the Russian ties and how certain Trump members like Manafort had massive financial dealings with Turkey.
Metalingus5150
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:31 PM)
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My friend is going over there. He's in the US military. According to him, he's getting more pay for being in such a dangerous place.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Adam_Vania

it exposes the ludicracy of US foregin relations and one of the reasons i didnt vote Clinton was her support of this style of warfare, of backing terrorists to fight terrorists. the US is both at war and not at war depending on what is politically convenient.

this is all standard US operating procedure. throwing guns and money at a problem of our own making. look at Operation Cyclone in the 80s, when we fought the Russians by creating the Taliban.

Can I just say that this was a stupid reason to not vote Clinton in the face of Donald fucking Trump. It's like, you think you're being smart and making a statement, but in the end you just shit the bed.
Sgt. Kabukiman
Member
(07-14-2017, 08:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

P. S. Does wishing the coup had succeeded in usurping power make me a terrorist sympathizer? That's pretty much the universal consensus here in Turkey, but I want to hear what you all think.

Edit: bolded the latter question because wondering if I'm sympathizing with terrorists is... Troubling to sya the least

I'm not gonna pretend to be particularly well-informed on this subject but if you want my gut feeling I would say: no, don't worry. Erdogan is a piece of shit threatening democracy. Not that the alternative would necessarily have solved everything but it's okay to feel that way and want change.

As for Gülen I honestly couldn't tell you what the perception is in Europe, I've seen a lot of different takes on his involvement with what is going on in Turkey and I'm not sure hat to believe.
Liljagare
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:07 PM)
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I find it appalling that Erdogan is still in power, the coup was so obviously staged. He has really played the long con, slowly dismantling Turkey so he can be a dictator. Got to give it to him though, he has been thorough.
KillLaCam
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:13 PM)
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I was hoping that the coup was a real thing. I'm not a fan of what Erdogan is doing
Kurdel
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:15 PM)
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Didn't Obama offer to extradite Gulen if Turkey could offer proof?
ramparter
(07-14-2017, 09:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by jstevenson

I think both are potentially true.

Erdoğan definitely wanted it to happen, and may have essentially set-up the opposition into thinking it'd work and coming out of the woodwork, and then cracked down on them.

But I think most think he was pulling the strings at some level.

This is what many believe here in Greece too.
SG-17
Junior Member
(07-14-2017, 09:18 PM)
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It was 100% a false flag. If Erdogan didn't control the whole thing from top to bottom he at least purposefully let the planners think that they could strike.
CertifiedFP
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:18 PM)
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Two Words:

Reichstag. Fire.
Jackpot
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Adam_Vania

it exposes the ludicracy of US foregin relations and one of the reasons i didnt vote Clinton was her support of this style of warfare, of backing terrorists to fight terrorists. the US is both at war and not at war depending on what is politically convenient.

this is all standard US operating procedure. throwing guns and money at a problem of our own making. look at Operation Cyclone in the 80s, when we fought the Russians by creating the Taliban.

Thank goodness Trump wouldn't do anything like that.... oh wait

Originally Posted by SG-17

It was 100% a false flag. If Erdogan didn't control the whole thing from top to bottom he at least purposefully let the planners think that they could strike.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any apart from the coup plotters being morons and something not negative happening to Erdogan?
Glass Shark
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Duo

Here in the US it might as well have not even happened. No one cares.

Yup. Considering that most Americans can't locate Turkey on a map, I don't think they have an opinion on the coup.
RCSI
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:32 PM)
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My friend was in the process for a Fulbright in Turkey (forgot which University) when the coup attempt occurred. Difficult for me to pin down on how I view the coup attempt, as I was more focused at the horror that Erdogan used the coup attempt to hack away at your democratic system.
SG-17
Junior Member
(07-14-2017, 09:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jackpot

Thank goodness Trump wouldn't do anything like that.... oh wait



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have any apart from the coup plotters being morons and something not negative happening to Erdogan?

It plays 100% into Erdogan's interests. Too convenient.
Lautaro
Member
(07-14-2017, 09:34 PM)
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