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Real PC RPGs Are For Nerds

Orb

Member
I have a feeling someone "liking to shame others indirectly" is just you feeling very insecure about saying you like certain stuff. You shouldn't be.

Also, I guess I'm an "elitist" too for prefering the long gone age of RPGs with a hint of depth and player agency to them.
I literally just explained what I thought elitists are and you clearly didn't read that lol

And no, I have been active shamed for loving Dragon Age Inquisition by people horny for Mass Effect 2. To say mocking and shaming doesn't happen while also trying to play psychiatrist kinda makes you a dick and im not really here for that.

There very much are petty people that see someone say they love something, and then chime in with a subtweet or post not directed at the person where they shit all over the game.
 

Javier23

Banned
I literally just explained what I thought elitists are and you clearly didn't read that lol

And no, I have been active shamed for loving Dragon Age Inquisition by people horny for Mass Effect 2. To say mocking and shaming doesn't happen while also trying to play psychiatrist kinda makes you a dick and im not really here for that.
Joke's on them then because ME2 of all games sucks balls as an RPG.
 

Peroroncino

Member
I get what he's trying to say, but I don't necessarily agree with it. It's no secret that companies like Bethesda or Bioware have been diluting their games to make them more approachable by causal players making them way more simplistic as a result.

I agree that the attitude of some of those hardcore players leaves a lot to be desired, but I can't really fault them, once upon a time they were the main audience for their beloved rpgs, nowadays if they get 1 or 2 proper hardcore RPGs they have a cause to pop the cork out of a champagne bottle and celebrate. And when they finally get that game they've been waiting for it can be a bit annoying when they find a lot of people posting that 'this or that is too hard, why they can't make it easier?' So some of them lash out. But then again, it's mostly steam forums, so what do you expect huh?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I haven't watched the video yet (at work), but just to address a general sentiment in the thread about "elitism":

It's OK to disagree with Jim, and that doesn't make it "ironic". Just saying.

I'm not even close to an RPG elitist (if you check my list in the Essentials RPG poll thread, there's only 1 western RPG in my top 10), myself, but if the idea is that you can't be displeased with trends of dumbing down what used to be your favourite genre and that makes you a snotty elitist otherwise, well... pish posh.

I dont realy get the snooty delivery on the Diablo point. Most fans I know of the games don't even consider them rpgs and would find it absurd to consider them one. Aren't the roots of Diablo more intertwined with action games like Gauntlet and not traditional tabletop rpgs at all? I don't know that throwing systems and a skinners box onto gauntlet makes an rpg, but the term has become so diluted in recent years Im not sure the distinction really matters anymore vs the 90s when this debate that never happened Jim is making fun of was supposed to have taken place.
Diablo is nothing but min-maxing build and gear for optimal DPS. So much number crunching and it's not an RPG? I don't get it. If anything, Diablo is too much of an RPG, and not enough of an action game. :p

When people go "but elitists have good points" you're probably also an elitist who doesn't wanna say it
Nothing wrong with being "elitist" then. That's just having standards. If you feel like someone is looking down on you because they have higher standards for their own preferences, you can say that makes them an elitist if you want, but I'd just say it makes you insecure. :p
 

OVDRobo

Member
I wonder whether the costume or the video came first. Got a smile out of me regardless.

I know it's not the topic for serious debate on the matter and I wouldn't want to ally with anyone whose comment was featured in the video, but stuff like Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, etc. actually is too DnD for me to enjoy as someone who was never really exposed to that stuff growing up. I'm fine with 'soft' RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect etc. and prefer them to push the complexity a bit further than they usually do like New Vegas and the first Mass Effect did, but once you have paragraphs of dialogue, emulation of d20s and a high fantasy setting, I usually can't maintain interest.

I don't look at games like that and think they should be simplified so I can experience them, though. I just write them off as not for me and keep enjoying the more casual RPGs which have become the mainstream rather than the exception.
 

Orb

Member
I haven't watched the video yet (at work), but just to address a general sentiment in the thread about "elitism":

It's OK to disagree with Jim, and that doesn't make it "ironic". Just saying.

I'm not even close to an RPG elitist (if you check my list in the Essentials RPG poll thread, there's only 1 western RPG in my top 10), myself, but if the idea is that you can't be displeased with trends of dumbing down what used to be your favourite genre and that makes you a snotty elitist otherwise, well... pish posh.


Diablo is nothing but min-maxing build and gear for optimal DPS. So much number crunching and it's not an RPG? I don't get it. If anything, Diablo is too much of an RPG, and not enough of an action game. :p


Nothing wrong with being "elitist" then. That's just having standards. If you feel like someone is looking down on you because they have higher standards for their own preferences, you can say that makes them an elitist if you want, but I'd just say it makes you insecure. :p
Ive already said what I think an elitist is and yeah I think there is something wrong with that and it's pretty shitty.

Another thing that's shitty is writing off people as being insecure when people are attacked online for less shit than gaming opinions.
 

IvorB

Member
When people go "but elitists have good points" you're probably also an elitist who doesn't wanna say it

I did kind of agree with some of the points he was mocking. I mean, they could have been worded a lot better but many are sort of true aren't they? Not hating on anyone who enjoys Bioware and Bethesda's current output but we're not really at the point of calling them brilliant WRPGs are we?
 

Orb

Member
An elitist is someone who thinks they know what is and isn't an RPG(in this case) and anything that doesn't fit their exact mold isn't a real RPG, it's trash. Dark Souls isn't an RPG because it's not turn based, Final fantasy isn't an RPG because you don't make the character, shit like this. It's fine to just not like something, bit to actively yell that it isn't in a genre or subgenre because it's slightly different from the norm and "taints" it is really stupid. (IE gate keeping)

I am NOT saying the dumbing down and pointing out how simplified a lot have gotten is elitist. Fallout 4 is ass and not a very good RPG, but it is still an RPG.

Sorry if there's confusion, I'm not great at wording things.

Beautiful post. Perfect. Bravo.



There is steel, in your irony.

What
 

Spectone

Member
It is fair to ask for more complex games, what is not right is to assume that your games are less complex because other people want simple games.
 

Durante

Member
If that's a mandatory requirement for being an elitist then I guess I am not an elitist after all :(

It is fair to ask for more complex games, what is not right is to assume that your games are less complex because other people want simple games.
Why? I'd argue that following the development history of e.g. Bethesda or Bioware that is a valid conclusion to draw.
 

Chaos17

Member
Video was fun, what the eletists are missing is that you don't need to dub down a rpg if you properly do tutorials. Divinity 2 lack a lot of explanation for new comers who just want to love the game too.
Personally, I was fine because I'm used to rpgs in general but I can understand some will feel lost.

I get what he's trying to say, but I don't necessarily agree with it. It's no secret that companies like Bethesda or Bioware have been diluting their games to make them more approachable by causal players making them way more simplistic as a result.

Jim isn't saying anything he is just mocking these people xD
He is just reading some quotes he found on Steam forum of Divinity 2.
 

lumzi23

Member
What is the big deal in calling someone a noob? It is not the nicest thing to say but it is not the most horrendous thing to say either.
 

Forward

Member
It is fair to ask for more complex games, what is not right is to assume that your games are less complex because other people want simple games.

I want English to evolve to the point where "A!" is identically synonymous with "Awesome!". It would make it oh-so-much-better, don't you think?
 

Orb

Member
What is the big deal in calling someone a noob? It is not the nicest thing to say but it is not the most horrendous thing to say either.
It's dude bro slang. When mostly immature dudes and kids use the word, its not gonna be looked upon fondly
 

Lashley

Why does he wear the mask!?
What is the big deal in calling someone a noob? It is not the nicest thing to say but it is not the most horrendous thing to say either.

its just funny because most people would look down more on the person calling someone a noob than the actual noob itself
 

Spectone

Member
I want English to evolve to the point where "A!" is identically synonymous with "Awesome!". It would make it oh-so-much-better, don't you think?

It's not an either a or b situation you can have both. Just because one developer decides to start making simple games does not mean that all developers will make simple games.
 

Usobuko

Banned
It's fun to have a little friendly banter but to fully believe one is superior because of his taste is ironic.

It's not as if everyone is a connoisseur in everything. You will not have time for all kinds of leisure and entertainment anyway.
 

Durante

Member
It's fun to have a little friendly banter but to fully believe one is superior because of his taste is ironic.

It's not as if everyone is a connoisseur in everything. You will not have time for all kinds of leisure and entertainment anyway.
Absolutely, and there's no need for anyone to be.

For example, I have no idea about wine. I can't tell good from bad (except when it's terrible). But I also wouldn't be offended if someone told me that the wine I'm drinking doesn't satisfy their palate. I can still enjoy it -- but that doesn't mean that they are wrong.
 

Wulfram

Member
CRPG "elitists" were more sympathetic when the genre was struggling. I get why you'd be annoyed at Bioware and Bethesda "dumbing down" when basically all the other people in the genre are tiny or struggling to get by.

But nowadays the CRPG genre is flourishing, so getting annoyed that people are making games you don't like is silly and often rather mean. Just go play the games you like.
 

Drek

Member
It's not an either a or b situation you can have both. Just because one developer decides to start making simple games does not mean that all developers will make simple games.

I think the irritation more comes from developers simplifying the more systems focused RPG franchises themselves/the previous top tier developers of those moving towards simplified RPG mechanics.

The Daggerfall > Morrowind > Oblivion > Skyrim chain is an example of this. Daggerfall was off-putting with it's mechanics. Morrowind hit, for me, an ideal balance, Oblivion began the move towards streamlining of RPG mechanics, while Skyrim took it one step further.

That said, Skyrim was a far better game than Oblivion, likely because that transitory step resulted in a lot of poor design choices in trying to straddle the fence, like the enemy level scaling system and having legacy skills that basically had little to no real value.

Same with Bioware and their games. The first Dragon Age was more in line with what the CRPG audience wants, the second moved too far towards action oriented gameplay, and the third tried to correct but did so by rolling a lot of the single player MMO mechanics found in other games from around that time into it (basically a polished up and larger Kingdoms of Amalur minus it's unique settling and art style).

I find it amusing that many of the original posters he's quoting probably think The Witcher 3 is great, but the actual RPG systems in it are less complex than something like Skyrim. It's all about brand appeal. The Witcher IP didn't really make mainstream waves until 3, so that's the standard. Meanwhile Bioware and Bethesda's games have made a transition and get flack as a result.

I'd argue that Diablo 3 more or less proves this, as it's levels of complexity are every bit comparable to Diablo 2 at this point but some people just won't let go of the real money auction house, more colorful and varied areas, etc.. I wonder how much of the continued hate comes from regular players who're just pissed that Blizzard remixes equipment + skill ratings enough to make the power builds change more often and more dramatically than in D2.

What you gonna do? I actually just started playing Divinity: Original Sin this week as the hype for the sequel (which I kickstarted) got me interested enough to break away from OOTP and CKII.

I'm loving it, but I've been thinking the whole time that it feels like a great introduction to the CRPG genre, not some bathed in blood purist's dream come true. I mean, I get through most battles with only one or two characters needing to be healed, no one dies, and the deaths aren't permanent as I'm less than 10 hours in and have over a dozen res. scrolls already. Good game but this ain't Fallout 2 levels of RNG punish or something despite using a very similar AP system. Also, it's on consoles. Yet that's the new poster child for "big boy RPGs".

It's not as if everyone is a connoisseur in everything. You will not have time for all kinds of leisure and entertainment anyway.

Speak for yourself, I'm the undisputed arbiter of good taste in literally all matters.

*sips espresso from insane vape pipe contraption with one pinky firmly raised in the air*
 
An elitist is someone who thinks they know what is and isn't an RPG(in this case) and anything that doesn't fit their exact mold isn't a real RPG, it's trash.
That's a common misconception.
Dark souls is more of an action game than an RPG, but that doesn't mean it's trash.
Games that are not RPGs can be good too
 

Big One

Banned
What gets me about CRPG elitists is how the RPGs they're touting as "real RPGs" aren't even real RPGs technically but more-so are simulations of real RPGs. When you play a real tabletop RPG, there's a DM involved that constantly has to change the course of the narrative in favor of the players under him, there's a lot of random elements, and the endgame could be drastically different depending on what the players want to do. Real RPGs have more in common with creating fiction than being some type of game with a set amount of rules or boundaries. There isn't a single game that has been able to replicate this whatsoever. The biggest one is that there is no DM and player relationship, as the DM in CRPGs are replaced by the game itself. To be fair, I would say Divinity: Original Sin is about as close to a video game can get to a real RPG.
 

Orb

Member
That's a common misconception.
Dark souls is more of an action game than an RPG, but that doesn't mean it's trash.
Games that are not RPGs can be good too
Misconception of what. Elitists aren't an official, objective group. I see the word as a negative name for people who think like what I said.

I have seen more than my share of people who call all non turnbased rpgs trash.
 

Aters

Member
PC RPGs are, indeed, for nerds. Sorry but I reserve my energy for something more important than videogames, when I play games, I just want to relax.
 
The gif potential here is staggering.

2:43 please

giphy.gif


Enjoy.

And here's one I made earlier, as a bonus (I made it for myself after watching the video, basically).

giphy.gif
 
So I watched the video.. that was quite funny.

I personally have no qualms about all these CRPG elitisms. I enjoy both hardcore and casual RPGs. I don't limit myself when it comes to RPG. I also found RPG definition discussions not necessary. If people call game A not RPG, then so be it. Fans of game A shouldn't be bothered. If it's a good game, it's a good game. RPG or not. Let those RPG purists have their fun with their definitions.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Yeah, I don't get all the people going "Haha, but he's making fun of YOU, don't you realise it?" Like, so what?
Yeah, heh.

An elitist is someone who thinks they know what is and isn't an RPG(in this case) and anything that doesn't fit their exact mold isn't a real RPG, it's trash. Dark Souls isn't an RPG because it's not turn based, Final fantasy isn't an RPG because you don't make the character, shit like this. It's fine to just not like something, bit to actively yell that it isn't in a genre or subgenre because it's slightly different from the norm and "taints" it is really stupid. (IE gate keeping)
I don't agree with the point of view that Dark Souls or Final Fantasy aren't RPGs, but how is someone saying "they aren't RPGs" looking down on people who enjoy them (or consider them RPGs)? Like, how does it insult or affect you, unless you're really that insecure?

What is the big deal in calling someone a noob? It is not the nicest thing to say but it is not the most horrendous thing to say either.
I don't know. I call myself a noob all the time.
 

IvorB

Member
What you gonna do? I actually just started playing Divinity: Original Sin this week as the hype for the sequel (which I kickstarted) got me interested enough to break away from OOTP and CKII.

I'm loving it, but I've been thinking the whole time that it feels like a great introduction to the CRPG genre, not some bathed in blood purist's dream come true. I mean, I get through most battles with only one or two characters needing to be healed, no one dies, and the deaths aren't permanent as I'm less than 10 hours in and have over a dozen res. scrolls already. Good game but this ain't Fallout 2 levels of RNG punish or something despite using a very similar AP system. Also, it's on consoles. Yet that's the new poster child for "big boy RPGs".

What difficulty are you playing on, out of interest?
 

Accoun

Member
I'm glad somebody had to come out and say it. Sorry guys, Final Fantasy and Diablo were and aren't RPGs.

I mean... from what I remember, this was exactly how the Hack & Slash genre started. From cRPG elitists trying to differentiate Diablo from "their" RPGs.
 

Forward

Member
Yeah, I don't get all the people going "Haha, but he's making fun of YOU, don't you realise it?" Like, so what?

It is almost as if they cannot see a step beyond their own opinions or something, isn't it. :p

Probably should have manually put points into "Detect Secret".
 

Orb

Member
Yeah, heh.


I don't agree with the point of view that Dark Souls or Final Fantasy aren't RPGs, but how is someone saying "they aren't RPGs" looking down on people who enjoy them (or consider them RPGs)? Like, how does it insult or affect you, unless you're really that insecure?


I don't know. I call myself a noob all the time.
I meant those as seperate things. There are some that do one and not the other. Thinking they aren't rpgs isn't doing anything to anyone else, but people that think that aggressively about something typically go out of their way to be vocal about it to others, a lot of times insulting them over it. Especially when they begin to think of themselves as true gamers for playing REAL rpgs and ppl who play the "lesser" games are just filthy casuals
 

Drek

Member
What difficulty are you playing on, out of interest?

Classic. Given the attitude people have towards it I figured it, like the CRPG highlights of old, had some rigor to it on default.

Maybe it's just that I figured the hook out quickly and built my party around it. No pure specialists but no straight jack of all trades types, picked up on the crowd control/area attacks as the dominant mechanic before I even got out of character creation, and as such I'm basically locking down half of every squad as soon as the battle starts.

Sure, if I stray out into the higher leveled areas I get punched down, but when fighting enemies at or one to two levels above me I'm either not getting at all or healing once/maybe twice in an entire fight.
 

Sini

Member
Can someone be elitist without much interest in the medium itself? As in, a non-video game player or just a casual player who just happens upon this thread and who thinks all this is ridiculous?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I meant those as seperate things. There are some that do one and not the other. Thinking they aren't rpgs isn't doing anything to anyone else, but people that think that aggressively about something typically go out of their way to be vocal about it to others, a lot of times insulting them over it. Especially when they begin to think of themselves as true gamers for playing REAL rpgs and ppl who play the "lesser" games are just filthy casuals

Honestly, this happens so rarely it's a borderline strawman. I mean, yes, sometimes you'll see a real-life caricature, but, who cares?
 

Orb

Member
Can someone be elitist without much interest in the medium itself? As in, a non-video game player or just a casual player who just happens upon this thread and who thinks all this is ridiculous?
You can be Elitist about other things. But generally... It'd be pretty hard to be elitist about something you arent passionate about.
 

Orb

Member
Honestly, this happens so rarely it's a borderline strawman. I mean, yes, sometimes you'll see a real-life caricature, but, who cares?
Uh okay I guess I'm the 1% who sees this shit constantly. Kay.

Just because it's rare to some people doesn't make it not shitty and is literally the exact thing Jim is making fun of in this video
 

IvorB

Member
Classic. Given the attitude people have towards it I figured it, like the CRPG highlights of old, had some rigor to it on default.

Maybe it's just that I figured the hook out quickly and built my party around it. No pure specialists but no straight jack of all trades types, picked up on the crowd control/area attacks as the dominant mechanic before I even got out of character creation, and as such I'm basically locking down half of every squad as soon as the battle starts.

Sure, if I stray out into the higher leveled areas I get punched down, but when fighting enemies at or one to two levels above me I'm either not getting at all or healing once/maybe twice in an entire fight.

I dunno, I found some of battles in the early parts of the game quite tricky but then I just explored the whole map so I encountered some stuff that was much higher than me. Or maybe I just suck. To be honest, the hardest part of that game was the obscure quests you need to complete to finish and the constant traps and puzzles.

Perhaps you should play on tactician?
 
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