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Official Islamic Thread

I

Instigator

Banned
Sayah said:
Probably referencing to this. It's put out of context as the link explains. It's referring to earth as in the ground where roads can be built, etc........not referring to the actual planet as a whole. Plus, there's the following verse as well.

"And we have made the earth egg shaped". The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 79, Verse 30

Whereas here, it's talking about the actual shape.

Edit: There's also supposedly support for evolution. Check from slide 5 onwards.
Click to expand...

It's funny, my two-year-old can tell a sphere and an egg apart, yet some people in this thread can not. Earth is not like an (ostrich) egg.

Moreover, the verse where the shape in question is mentionned is even disputed among many Muslims, arguing that it obviously refers to the earth around the ostrich ness being flattened, to make it suitable (which is the whole point of the other verses).

Instead of practicing linguistic gymnastics and grasping at laughably conterted arguments, you could argue most of that stuff as metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally. Yet some Muslims can't resist making the Quran look "miraculous" any which way they get away with.
 
Pollux

Pollux

Member
Kad5 said:
You know guys. I thought it would be a good idea to maybe make a Monotheism thread.....

Something for other monotheist faiths to post in and discuss maybe? Like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism for example.

Or something along those lines it doesn't have to be strictly monotheism.
Click to expand...

As a Catholic I support this idea.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Instigator said:
It's funny, my two-year-old can tell a sphere and an egg apart, yet some people in this thread can not. Earth is not like an (ostrich) egg.

Moreover, the verse where the shape in question is mentionned is even disputed among many Muslims, arguing that it obviously refers to the earth around the ostrich ness being flattened, to make it suitable (which is the whole point of the other verses).

Instead of practicing linguistic gymnastics and grasping at laughably conterted arguments, you could argue most of that stuff as metaphorical and shouldn't be taken literally. Yet some Muslims can't resist making the Quran look "miraculous" any which way they get away with.
Click to expand...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblate_spheroid


The shape of the Earth is actually a spheroid. Not a perfect sphere. The egg description is somewhat accurate.


Also, you should look up the linguistic structure of semitic languages as well to understand the translation process of the Quran as I have.

Semitic languages are very interesting. A single word can have multiple different meanings and descriptions that , while similar in nature, can be conveyed in entirely different ways.
 
C

crazy monkey

Banned
Kad5 said:
Anyone else support?

The idea of the thread is inter-faith dialogue while recognizing that we all worship a universal and single "God". Or whatever word you want to use.
Click to expand...

It will ruined in 5 sec and turn in to religion vs no religion thread which we have already.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Instigator said:
Even entertaining that point for a second, the perfect Quran, word of the all-knowing Allah is just somewhat accurate?
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Considering that the Quran was preached by an unlearned merchant from the 500s the fact that it even comes CLOSE at all is amazing honestly.

Also, the way you talk about the book and religion shows you are misinformed.

My belief is that every monotheistic/monist/pantheist/panentheist belief worships the same God.

Allah is just one of many names for this force as is El, Elohim, Yahweh, Khoda, Ahura Mazda, etc.


The most important belief is that there exists a fundamental force that exists everywhere and is the cause of all things.
 
R

Red_Ragnarok

Banned
Most of those verses that you listed are worded in a really vague manner; I wouldn’t call them scientific. Some of them are wrong too – there’s many videos on YouTube where people debunk the scientific miracles that Muslims claim are in the Quran.

Also, a lot of the facts probably came from the Greeks. I’m sure that there was exchange of information going around between traders and travellers. Eratosthenes was a Greek philosopher who calculated the circumference of the Earth in Alexandria before the time of Islam, so there were people who knew that the Earth wasn’t flat. And even if there was no record of this knowledge before, it would still be illogical to automatically conclude that Muhammad must have attained it through divine intervention and that therefore, the Quran is the word of god.

I really don’t understand how you could believe that all the different versions of monotheism/pantheism worship the same god. There is much more to these religions than just “a God exists”. There are blatant contradictions on very important aspects such as how to avoid eternal punishment in Hell.
 
I

Instigator

Banned
Kad5 said:
Considering that the Quran was preached by an unlearned merchant from the 500s the fact that it even comes CLOSE at all is amazing honestly.

Also, the way you talk about the book and religion shows you are misinformed.

My belief is that every monotheistic/monist/pantheist/panentheist belief worships the same God.

Allah is just one of many names for this force as is El, Elohim, Yahweh, Khoda, Ahura Mazda, etc.


The most important belief is that there exists a fundamental force that exists everywhere and is the cause of all things.
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I'm not misinformed on this matter, I'm being precise.

The perfection of the Quran is an important point since it justifies the existence of the faith vis-a-vis Christianity and Judaism, something Islam claims to correct (a pretty bold claim). It also reinforces the Quran being a miracle in itself.

If it's miraculous that the unaltered word of God came to us after over 1300 years, then there's something off if the divine information it contains is not so reliable. To you, of course, as a believer, it might be almost as miraculous, but to someone like me who doesn't believe, it just looks like another man-made faith.

Yes, I know, if you believe in monotheism, it's great to think like-minded people like you from other faiths all believe in the same god, it's like being one big family. But I see it like Zeus and Jupiter, obviously they are the same god, but they were part of different mythologies from different people and these gods didn't act quite the same so I view them as different entities. So by calling them as they are known, you know which one I'm refering to. No confusion.
 
S

Sutton Dagger

Member
Kad5 said:
I was hoping to see a rebuttal against the verses I posted.


I guess not. This was sort of a test for me to see how infallible the Quran is. But either way I appreciate the message it provides on my outlook in life.
Click to expand...

I only just saw your post this minute (and didn't expect a wall of text, but that's okay). I'll have a closer look tomorrow as I'm busy atm, but at a cursory glance most of the claims aren't scientific and the wording is obviously non-specific.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Instigator said:
I'm not misinformed on this matter, I'm being precise.

The perfection of the Quran is an important point since it justifies the existence of the faith vis-a-vis Christianity and Judaism, something Islam claims to correct (a pretty bold claim). It also reinforces the Quran being a miracle in itself.

If it's miraculous that the unaltered word of God came to us after over 1300 years, then there's something off if the divine information it contains is not so reliable. To you, of course, as a believer, it might be almost as miraculous, but to someone like me who doesn't believe, it just looks like another man-made faith.

Yes, I know, if you believe in monotheism, it's great to think like-minded people like you from other faiths all believe in the same god, it's like being one big family. But I see it like Zeus and Jupiter, obviously they are the same god, but they were part of different mythologies from different people and these gods didn't act quite the same so I view them as different entities. So by calling them as they are known, you know which one I'm refering to. No confusion.
Click to expand...

The Quran is a completely mathematical book and this has only been found out recently by putting the book into a computer: http://www.submission.org/#/d/App1.html


There is no way Mohammed recited all of this knowing the mathematical structure of it. The Quran itself even references the number in a verse:

[Quran 74:30] Over it is nineteen.
[Quran 74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
[Quran 74:32] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
[Quran 74:33] And the night as it passes.
[Quran 74:34] And the morning as it shines.
[Quran 74:35] This is one of the great miracles.
[Quran 74:36] A warning to the human race.
[Quran 74:37] For those among you who wish to ADVANCE OR REGRESS.



[Quran 16:120] Abraham was indeed an exemplary vanguard in his submission to God, a monotheist who never worshiped idols.

[Quran 16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.

[Quran 10:105] I was commanded: "Keep yourself devoted to the religion of monotheism; you shall not practice idol worship.

[Quran 3:95] Say, "God has proclaimed the truth: You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

[Quran 4:125] Who is better guided in his religion than one who submits totally to God, leads a righteous life, according to the creed of Abraham: monotheism? God has chosen Abraham as a beloved friend.

[Quran 2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."

[Quran 6:75] We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty:

[Quran 6:76] When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."

[Quran 6:77] When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."

[Quran 6:78] When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.

[Quran 6:79] "I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."

[Quran 6:80] His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about God, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed?

[Quran 6:81] "Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of God idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"

[Quran 6:82] Those who believe, and do not pollute their belief with idol worship, have deserved the perfect security, and they are truly guided.

[Quran 6:83] Such was our argument, with which we supported Abraham against his people. We exalt whomever we will to higher ranks. Your Lord is Most Wise, Omniscient.

[Quran 60:4] A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him. They said to their people, "We disown you and the idols that you worship besides God. We denounce you, and you will see nothing from us except animosity and hatred until you believe in God ALONE." However, a mistake was commited by Abraham when he said to his father, "I will pray for your forgiveness, but I possess no power to protect you from God." "Our Lord, we trust in You, and submit to You; to You is the final destiny.

[Quran 60:6] A good example has been set by them for those who seek God and the Last Day. As for those who turn away, God is in no need (of them), Most Praiseworthy.







I will make another point with these verses:

[Quran 6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.


[Quran 10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[Quran 41:3] A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know.



[Quran 18:1] Praise God, who revealed to His servant this scripture, and made it flawless.
[Quran 18:2] A perfect (scripture) to warn of severe retribution from Him, and to deliver good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have earned a generous recompense.


[Quran 4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

[Quran 54:17, 22, 32, 40 ] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?



(These verses are referring to people such as yourself who choose to be skeptical of it):


[Quran 17:41] We have cited in this Quran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.

[Quran 17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone,* they run away in aversion.


[Quran 12:103] Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.

[Quran 12:106] The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship.

 
K

Kad5

Member
The only point that needs to be made is that God is supposed to be a fundamental creative force that exists everywhere and beyond. The cause of all causes and things.


Quantum Mechanics supports the idea that there is a fundamental force that exists everywhere infinitely at all times.

This force is of course in the form of waves. But something more fundamental than even THAT might exist for all we know.
 
I

Instigator

Banned
Another wall of text, copied and pasted from somewhere else.

Miracle of 19! Bible code! Nonsense all the same. Are number and word games really necessary for faith? Did Muhammad originally play tricks to convert or did he have something more relevant to say? Don't answer me, answer that for yourself.

Wow, the Quran states only Allah can be its author. That's quite an argument. But who am I to talk when my mind has been clouded, the man upstairs doesn't want me to know so let's leave it at that.

But seriously, kad, don't you see you're not arguing much of anything? You're just spewing blind faith, hoping random verses will somehow convince us.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Instigator said:
Another wall of text, copied and pasted from somewhere else.

Miracle of 19! Bible code! Nonsense all the same. Are number and word games really necessary for faith? Did Muhammad originally play tricks to convert or did he have something more relevant to say? Don't answer me, answer that for yourself.

Wow, the Quran states only Allah can be its author. That's quite an argument. But who am I to talk when my mind has been clouded, the man upstairs doesn't want me to know so let's leave it at that.

But seriously, kad, don't you see you're not arguing much of anything? You're just spewing blind faith, hoping random verses will somehow convince us.
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I'm not convincing YOU of anything.


I could go more in depth in regards to the potential psychology of Mohammed at the time but perhaps that isn't necessary.

I have had plenty of spiritual experiences of my own.

Just consider that more than likely Mohammed legitimately believed he was a prophet of God. He was not lying. He had to have believed he was receiving messages from something in order to do what he did.
 
S

Sutton Dagger

Member
Kad5 said:
I'm not convincing YOU of anything.


I could go more in depth in regards to the potential psychology of Mohammed at the time but perhaps that isn't necessary.

I have had plenty of spiritual experiences of my own.

Just consider that more than likely Mohammed legitimately believed he was a prophet of God. He was not lying. He had to have believed he was receiving messages from something in order to do what he did.
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That doesn't have any bearing on the truth of the claims. In any case I think you're establishing your points in bad faith, it's typically not beneficial to throw out 30-40 points (in this case verses) and expect there to be meaningful discourse. I suspect the other posters I've had discussions with previously would agree... Shout out to Ashes & OS. ;)
 
I

Instigator

Banned
Who said anything about Mohammed not believing what he said? It could be argued he made it all up, but I don't think it's necessary to go that far (though if you insist, we can argue that).

Quite simply, if one of your friends came to you, told you he had visions and heard voices telling him to start a new movement, would you believe him? Yes? Enough to leave Islam and follow him? See, a lot of things can be wrong with people, in their head, completely dellusional. Most people instinctively know that and would not believe such a man, just think of him as crazy.

There can still be extraordinary circumstances to help elevate such unlikely people and make them greater than they would be in normal circumstances. Joan of Ark definitely qualifies, I'd say Mohammed likely does too.

Crazy at the right time and at the right place. :)
 
E

Enco

Member
Kad5 said:
[Quran 21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?

[Quran 17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

[Quran 41:11] Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."

[Quran 21:33] And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.

[39:21] Do you not see that God sends down from the sky water, then places it into underground wells, then produces with it plants of various colors, then they grow until they turn yellow, then He turns them into hay? This should be a reminder for those who possess intelligence.

[Quran 16:66] And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers.

Quran 23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is God, the best Creator.

[Quran 57:25] …….and We have sent down iron, in it is great strength.

(Referring to Iron crashing down on Earth from outer space debris.)

[Quran 34:3]...Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."

(There are things smaller than atoms.)

[Quran 55:5] The sun and the moon are perfectly calculated.

[Quran 79:30] He made the earth egg-shaped.

[Quran 21:32] And we rendered the sky a guarded ceiling. Yet, they are totally oblivious to all the portents therein.

(O-Zone layer)

[Quran 24:43] Do you not realize that God drives the clouds, then gathers them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain coming out of them? He sends down from the sky loads of snow to cover whomever He wills, while diverting it from whomever He wills. The brightness of the snow almost blinds the eyes.

[Quran 25:61] Most blessed is the One who placed constellations in the sky, and placed in it a lamp, and a shining moon.
[Quran 25:62] He is the One who designed the night and the day to alternate: a sufficient proof for those who wish to take heed, or to be appreciative.

[Quran 109:1] Say, "O you disbelievers.
[Quran 109:2] "I do not worship what you worship.
[Quran 109:3] "Nor do you worship what I worship.
[Quran 109:4] "Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
[Quran 109:5] "Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
[Quran 109:6] "To you is your Way, and to me mine."
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Tried to make Kad's post a bit more readable with the main highlights.

The final quotes in bold are really important. It's a shame you get a load of Muslims who try to force their religion on others when it's clearly said that you should NOT be doing so.

The Liam Neeson thing would be crazy (although I doubt it will happen for some reason). £14 m bible eh. Dailymail though.
 
A

Azih

Member
That every individual is their own Sheikh?
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In a very real sense every individual IS their own Sheikh. Every individual needs to come to their own conclusions, even deciding to follow someone else blindly is still an individual conscious choice.
 
R

Raist

Banned
Kad5 said:
I was hoping to see a rebuttal against the verses I posted.


I guess not. This was sort of a test for me to see how infallible the Quran is. But either way I appreciate the message it provides on my outlook in life.
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I'd bite, but I don't even know where to begin. The vast majority of these verses have nothing to do with science or scientific facts, and the few which do are either incorrect or so vague that it's basically seeing science revealed in the Qur'an because you're actually looking for it, knowing what you know now. Find me a verse describing the chemical structure of penicillin and I'll be impressed.
 
Gorgon

Gorgon

Member
Kad5 said:
I was hoping to see a rebuttal against the verses I posted.


I guess not. This was sort of a test for me to see how infallible the Quran is. But either way I appreciate the message it provides on my outlook in life.
Click to expand...

Scientific errors in the Quran:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm

At the end of the day, everyone can waste their time cherry picking vague quotes and presenting them as some kind of evidence of unknowable scientific knowledge at the time that could only come from God. I fail to see any. But then again, I'm far more impressed by Aristotle anyway.

Just presenting this for your consideration. It's not meant as a rebuttal or as an attempt to convince you of anything, but is healthy to put things into perspective. Testing the infability of the Quran by posting some cherry picked vagueness-full quotes on a videogame forum does sound a bit ridiculous to me, though.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Gorgon said:
Scientific errors in the Quran:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm

At the end of the day, everyone can waste their time cherry picking vague quotes and presenting them as some kind of evidence of unknowable scientific knowledge at the time that could only come from God. I fail to see any. But then again, I'm far more impressed by Aristotle anyway.

Just presenting this for your consideration. It's not meant as a rebuttal or as an attempt to convince you of anything, but is healthy to put things into perspective. Testing the infability of the Quran by posting some cherry picked vagueness-full quotes on a videogame forum does sound a bit ridiculous to me, though.
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Honestly i'm looking at those webpages and they seem to misunderstand things based on the literal translation. How semitic languages work is that words tend to essentially describe things. At the time there weren't words or concepts for a lot of these things. But these days our knowledge of science is updated so I can make a better translations of those words.


The Quran isn't a book of science. It isn't trying to be so that's why it isn't going into detail because it isn't necessary. It goes into basics. Regardless of that the book puts out a very logical message in regards to idolatry for example.




Also, how do you explain the mathematical phenomena in the Quran? That impresses me more than anything else.
 
Gorgon

Gorgon

Member
Kad5 said:
Honestly i'm looking at those webpages and they seem to misunderstand things based on the literal translation. How semitic languages work is that words tend to essentially describe things. At the time there weren't words or concepts for a lot of these things. But these days our knowledge of science is updated so I can make a better translations of those words.


The Quran isn't a book of science. It isn't trying to be so that's why it isn't going into detail because it isn't necessary. It goes into basics. Regardless of that the book puts out a very logical message in regards to idolatry for example.




Also, how do you explain the mathematical phenomena in the Quran? That impresses me more than anything else.
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I understand that, but in my opinion you're fooling yourself (sorry, nothing personal). When you say that they're misunderstand things based on literal translations that's where the problem starts. The things mentioned are so vague that you can fit whatever you want there. This is the same things that UFO crazies do (I'm not saying you are crazy); they see a reference to some strange happening in the bible and they assume its a description of a space ship. Why? They want to believe so, and since the descriptions are so vague they can fit anything into it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, mind you; it's your option to believe and rationalize things the way you want. But if you want to be honest with yourself, it should be clear that you're doing nothing but using vague descriptions into which anything you wish can be fitted. It's even worse when you, as you say, use modern words to replace old ones under the pretense that you are making a "better translation". That is a belief on your part, an assumption, because it fits well with your religious belief. It is still arbitrary though, and somewhat fallacious, to try to use that as any real evidence. But its fine if you want to think that way, as long as you're not realistically expecting to convince anyone with that.

The other problem I have is how you choose the quotes and evaluate if they should be taken as evidence or discarded. For example, you mention a quote that says:

"And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit"

I don't find anything amazing in this, but I understand that for you this is some kind of confirmation of scientific validity of the Quran. But the Quran says that the Moon and the Sun orbit the Earth:

"It is God who made for you the earth a fixed place and heaven for an edifice".

Of course you can say that God wasn't refereing to Earth's position in space but instead we should interpret as such and such, etc. But where do you draw the line? At the end of the day, you interpret what you want as scientific evidence because you arbitrarily substitute modern words for old ones and in other cases you use the justification that something is not to be taken literally and that the Quran was refering to something else in a figurative sense. This is completely arbitrary, as you should realize. The consistency stems only from your belief that the Quran presents things right and that what seems wrong is not to be taken literaly and the rest is old words that don't convey the right idea because concepts were inexistent, and that stuff had to be kept simple, etc. Like I said above, everything is so vague that you make of it anything you want, while discarding something as allegorical or figurative when you clearly can't.

Regarding the mathematics thing, I havent read it, sorry. Maybe latter I'll check it out. Anyway, hope that conveys my point of view on these matters. Take it for what its worth.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Gorgon said:
"And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit"

I don't find anything amazing in this, but I understand that for you this is some kind of confirmation of scientific validity of the Quran. But the Quran says that the Moon and the Sun orbit the Earth:

"It is God who made for you the earth a fixed place and heaven for an edifice".
Click to expand...

That last quote is a terrible translation. Here is a better one:

God is the One who rendered the earth habitable for you, and the sky a formidable structure, and He designed you, and designed you well. He is the One who provides you with good provisions. Such is God your Lord; Most Exalted is God, Lord of the universe. -Quran 40:64
Click to expand...


Same verse. The difference is that your translation is terrible.

You proved nothing.
 
Gorgon

Gorgon

Member
Kad5 said:
That last quote is a terrible translation. Here is a better one:




Same verse. The difference is that your translation is terrible.

You proved nothing.
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I didn't translate anything, I took it from the site (a muslim one, I think) that I refered to before. It's meant as an example to illustrate my point, unless everything is mistranslated on that website?

I also don't understand your remark that I didn't prove anything. I wasn't trying to prove anything to you. It's not my mission to convert anyone to atheism or agnosticism. I was making an argument that I thought was understandable, without attacking you and indeed respecting your opinion while presenting my point of view. Now it seems like you're behaving like a spoiled child the same way that many religious people behave the moment that someone presents a logic argument to them. Honestly, that is dissapointing.
 
K

Kad5

Member
Gorgon said:
I didn't translate anything, I took it from the site (a muslim one, I think) that I refered to before. It's meant as an example to illustrate my point, unless everything is mistranslated on that website?

I also don't understand your remark that I didn't prove anything. I wasn't trying to prove anything to you. It's not my mission to convert anyone to atheism or agnosticism. I was making an argument that I thought was understandable, without attacking you and indeed respecting your opinion while presenting my point of view. Now it seems like you're behaving like a spoiled child the same way that many religious people behave the moment that someone presents a logic argument to them. Honestly, that is dissapointing.
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I understand your point but you have to be wary of how the words are being presented and the possibility that people may distort things. That's the only point i'm making.

Also, I don't classify myself as religious at all. I'm more spiritual than religious. I incorporate aspects of Buddhism into my beliefs for example among other philosophies.
 
F

F#A#Oo

Banned
Enco said:
The Liam Neeson thing would be crazy (although I doubt it will happen for some reason). £14 m bible eh. Dailymail though.
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True...I do wonder how they estimate the value...maybe it's value is how much the Vatican church is willing to pay for it... :eek:

zmoney said:
Not a Bible -- Gospel of Barnabas
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Yeah...

I wonder what it feels like to the touch...and how many of the pages can be read...that's more interesting to me than the contents.
 
R

Raist

Banned
Kad5 said:
Honestly i'm looking at those webpages and they seem to misunderstand things based on the literal translation. How semitic languages work is that words tend to essentially describe things. At the time there weren't words or concepts for a lot of these things. But these days our knowledge of science is updated so I can make a better translations of those words.


The Quran isn't a book of science. It isn't trying to be so that's why it isn't going into detail because it isn't necessary. It goes into basics. Regardless of that the book puts out a very logical message in regards to idolatry for example.
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You dropped a bunch of verses regarding "references to science", complained within an hour that no one debunked them and concluded that the Qur'an is THE TRUTH, and now that we do you say that well it's not about science anyway. I'm confused.



Also, how do you explain the mathematical phenomena in the Quran? That impresses me more than anything else.
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Hard to tell, your link doesn't work.
 
A

amrihua

Member
Kad5 said:
The Quran isn't a book of science.
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Then what is it? Your whole point in arguing the truth of it is some far fetched arguments and accusing everyone of misunderstaning the Quran and everything they quote as a mistranslation.



/ex-muslim who studied the quran and arabic grammar for 12 plus years.
 
K

Kad5

Member
amrihua said:
Then what is it? Your whole point in arguing the truth of it is some far fetched arguments and accusing everyone of misunderstaning the Quran and everything they quote as a mistranslation.



/ex-muslim who studied the quran and arabic grammar for 12 plus years.
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The point of the book is to provide spiritual context and how to relate it into the world we live in.

This isn't exclusive to the Quran many religious books in Hinduism or Buddhism do the same things.

Most major religions have a lot of common ground and it would make sense to me in the sense that it isn't far fetched to assume that God communicated with other people around the world and thus formed their own beliefs based on their own perspectives in different times and environments.

Also, you don't even have to classify yourself as a muslim to be a muslim.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
Gorgon said:
Scientific errors in the Quran:

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm

At the end of the day, everyone can waste their time cherry picking vague quotes and presenting them as some kind of evidence of unknowable scientific knowledge at the time that could only come from God. I fail to see any. But then again, I'm far more impressed by Aristotle anyway.

Just presenting this for your consideration. It's not meant as a rebuttal or as an attempt to convince you of anything, but is healthy to put things into perspective. Testing the infability of the Quran by posting some cherry picked vagueness-full quotes on a videogame forum does sound a bit ridiculous to me, though.
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oh the irony. ;)


amrihua said:
Then what is it? Your whole point in arguing the truth of it is some far fetched arguments and accusing everyone of misunderstaning the Quran and everything they quote as a mistranslation.



/ex-muslim who studied the quran and arabic grammar for 12 plus years.
Click to expand...


Oh the irony2! :p



Anyone else seen this?
 
Z

Zapages

Member
Hey guys,

I am trying to find a good Korean translation of the Holy Quran. Do you guys have any recommendations. Thanks in advance. :)
 
Y

Ydahs

Member
The ongoing Sunni-Alawi split is sure making me lose faith with the Islamic community over here in Australia. How's it like with the rest of the world?
 
O

OttomanScribe

Member
Ydahs said:
The ongoing Sunni-Alawi split is sure making me lose faith with the Islamic community over here in Australia. How's it like with the rest of the world?
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What do you mean?

I mean there is a bunch of division over Syria for sure, but there has never been any question in the minds of most Sunni and Shia that Alawis aren't really part of the community anyway...
 
F

F#A#Oo

Banned
Ydahs said:
The ongoing Sunni-Alawi split is sure making me lose faith with the Islamic community over here in Australia. How's it like with the rest of the world?
Click to expand...

Last week 2 brothers had an arguement in a cafe above the masjiid...got heated and the other slashed the guys throat astaghfirullah. London UK.

He didn't do any serious damage and the victim is ok. He's been detained now.

Yeah I avoid trying to divide...but it can be difficult when so many Muslims like to label themselves across ethnic and national lines. Let alone the schools and branches of Islam.

Does my head in sometimes...
 
C

crazy monkey

Banned
OttomanScribe said:
What do you mean?

I mean there is a bunch of division over Syria for sure, but there has never been any question in the minds of most Sunni and Shia that Alawis aren't really part of the community anyway...
Click to expand...

IMO You can not deny some one community. It is in the hand of allah to decide who is right. I am extremely unlearned so my opinion does not mean much but that is me.


Vivalaraza said:
A guy I know is adamant that shaving is haraam and stricly forbidden. Thoughts?
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Does he shave? There are many many rules and regulations each with different thoughts and restrictions.
 
O

OttomanScribe

Member
crazy monkey said:
IMO You can not deny some one community. It is in the hand of allah to decide who is right. I am extremely unlearned so my opinion does not mean much but that is me.
Click to expand...
In the case of a group who, according to scholarly consensus, are out of the fold of the religion, then there is not an issue. This is not to say they are all going to hell or whatever, that is with Allah, but in terms of them being considered Muslims by Sunni and even Shia, in a legal sense, then both say no.

Of course things with Syria make it more heated. One brother shot another brother here after they had an argument on facebook. A lot of my friends are Lebanese so it is all very close to home.
 
V

Vivalaraza

Member
Most people (Shia/Sunni) I know don't consider Alawi's muslim.

Similar case with Ahmadi's. At my university the Ahmadi's applied to have their own society set up. The SU suggested that they co-operate with either the Isoc or the Absoc(Ahlul-Bayt Society/Shia Society), but both rejected this and strongly claimed that since Ahmadi's were not close to traditional Islam they couldn't be affiliated with either society. Was pretty tense between the groups.

Also a very big push from the Shia's on campus for Isoc to be renamed the SunniSoc or something similar.

Any of you students and come across similar instances?
 
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