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Buffy the Vampire Slayer turns 20

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Bold One

Member
Yeah!

S4 when Spike got defanged and first turned into a good guy.
It also the start of all the awful magic stories and metaphors. First magic is gay, then magic is drugs, then magic is evil, then magic some delicate tool or weapon/inner strength nonsense.

+1 Cordy best girl. Another reason S4 onwards mostly awful.

Real Best Girl

LL
 

Media

Member
Real Best Girl

cz2GHOe.gif


Nope
FaithHeart.gif


The problem with having her become too powerful was evident in Season 7, when they would often have her get knocked out early or be unwilling or at least hesitant to fight. Because otherwise fight scenes would last like two seconds.


I mean they could have still done the 'opened a door she shouldn't have' thing and nerfed her with her own conscience but nope. DRUGS DRUGS
 
Not a big Buffy fan, first it was because it seemed like it never had a good plotline, the acting by most of the characters was not as good as Angel, even in a vaccuum, and there were like no black people ever.

I'm not a huge Whedon guy though period.

That's not fair. There were 2 (Bianca Lawson in season 2, DB Woodside in season 7). Three if you count the demon in season 3. 4 if you count Riley's best friend in the Initiative. I'm just messing with you, I get your point, Sunnydale was pretty white looking back at it.

I got turned on to Buffy in college, I want to say during Season 5, and was hooked nearly immediately. Only have the first and last seasons on DVD (and the first season of Angel), keep meaning to buy the box set but never following through on it.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
This thread has encouraged me to do my first re-watch. Haven't seen the show in almost 10 years. I have Angel on DVD as well, but never watched it. Guess I'll be celebrating with everyone else!

I want to but I keep telling myself to wait for an eventual Buffy/Angel Blu-ray collection. Doesn't seem to be happening though, as it would require a second remaster of Buffy that isn't one of the worst remasters of anything in the history of media.

Hell, I'd be okay with just a proper remaster and putting that on Netflix.

Angel looks fantastic though. Always has.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Joss hinted pretty heavily that he wasn't in the the mood to be creative because of the election results. He seems very focused on pushing back against Trump, which I understand. It's important.

That being said, how would everyone feel if Joss came back to TV with a new show in the Buffy universe? Sure, my dream is a revival of either Buffy or Angel. Though it's unlikely as actors would be busy, some might feel like they're too old to play vampires, etc.

But I would actually love for Joss to go to The CW and do a new show in the Buffy universe. Mainly new characters but with a couple old ones who were up for it. In this day and age, it would not be in any danger of being canceled. Ratings would absolutely hold up for The CW and it could go on for years.

It would make me so damn happy.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Buffy S6 is amazing and on par with S2 and S3

Angel S4 is better than S5, S5 sucked until Smile Time

Wesley and Giles are right to do the things they do

The shows got better as they got darker

This is the knowledge I have for you

About the everlasting truth
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Buffy S6 is amazing and on par with S2 and S3

Angel S4 is better than S5, S5 sucked until Smile Time

Wesley and Giles are right to do the things they do

The shows got better as they got darker

This is the knowledge I have for you

About the everlasting truth

What in the world. "You're Welcome," one of the best episodes of the series, was two episodes before "Smile Time."

Bite your tongue.
 
Joss hinted pretty heavily that he wasn't in the the mood to be creative because of the election results. He seems very focused on pushing back against Trump, which I understand. It's important.

That being said, how would everyone feel if Joss came back to TV with a new show in the Buffy universe? Sure, my dream is a revival of either Buffy or Angel. Though it's unlikely as actors would be busy, some might feel like they're too old to play vampires, etc.

But I would actually love for Joss to go to The CW and do a new show in the Buffy universe. Mainly new characters but with a couple old ones who were up for it. In this day and age, it would not be in any danger of being canceled. Ratings would absolutely hold up for The CW and it could go on for years.

It would make me so damn happy.

As much as that pains me to say, Angel got a perfect ending, which was a feat considering how abruptly it got put down. So I hope it stays where it is. I didn't even touch the comics.
Even though Buffy's ending was more open to me I feel like it had run its course.

Anyway hell yeah, I'd like a new Whedon show, Buffyverse or not. There was just something unique about his writing that I never found anywhere else since then (dat character evolution. 10/10)
 
Buffy season 4 is my favourite guilty pleasure season of all time.

Spike is fucking cracking me up all the time.

Also, Hush and Restless are masterpieces.
 

Media

Member
Buffy season 4 is my favourite guilty pleasure season of all time.

Spike is fucking cracking me up all the time.

Also, Hush and Restless are masterpieces.

Restless had three best Spike foreshadowing of all time.

tumblr_lg9rwx6sNM1qc1448o1_400.gif



Edit: God that gif is shit wish I could find a better one. Maybe no one picked up on that but me ha.


Can we take one moment to collectively hate Kennedy for existing? What a trash heap character.


I fondly remember watching an episode and my brother from the next room screaming "Shut up Kennedy!" Good times. Loathed her.
 

Bold One

Member
As much as that pains me to say, Angel got a perfect ending, which was a feat considering how abruptly it got put down. So I hope it stays where it is. I didn't even touch the comics.
Even though Buffy's ending was more open to me I feel like it had run its course.

Anyway hell yeah, I'd like a new Whedon show, Buffyverse or not. There was just something unique about his writing that I never found anywhere else since then (dat character evolution. 10/10)

Definitely, its why I always put his shows above something like Supernatural which is a small circle with two leads (3 if yo count Cas). There isn't that ensemble cast of characters that play off each other whilst developing as time passes. Its just Sam and Dean going over the same beats again and again...

A bigger budget Whedon show with a full run of 20+ eps would be great though...
 
Happy birthday, Buffy! I'm getting back into the show again recently. I really missed it. I needed my fix of slayage
and hot AF Angel
so badly!
 
Definitely, its why I always put his shows above something like Supernatural which is a small circle with two leads (3 if yo count Cas). There isn't that ensemble cast of characters that play off each other whilst developing as time passes. Its just Sam and Dean going over the same beats again and again...

A bigger budget Whedon show with a full run of 20+ eps would be great though...

Yeah, Supernatural is the closest thing that got to Buffy/Angel to me. In fact I started watching specifically because it started a few months after Angel's ending and I was looking for a new character-focused fantasy show.

And you're absolutely right that it can't reach the same heights partially because of the 2-lead limitation. It got very close in seasons 2-3-4 though.
 
I said it earlier, but I still haven't seen any live action American TV series - let alone a character focused urban fantasy one - to hook me in ever since Buffy went off the air in 2003. It's kinda sad.

Oh, and I love Buffy's ending. It's completely in tune with the original mission statement the show had by being an inversion of expectations:
In a story about a "chosen one"/hero's journey, Buffy and the Scoobies make every girl in the world the chosen one/hero at the end. It's a really brilliant end to the show and it's why I can forgive a lot of season 7's flaws.
 
i liked the writing

but the story/setting of the earlier seasons were better. it was distinctly 1990s and distinctly high school

then the plot became about generic young adult stuff and bad scifi which had nothing to do with the era or a socal suburb
 
Yeah!

S4 when Spike got defanged and first turned into a good guy.
It also the start of all the awful magic stories and metaphors. First magic is gay, then magic is drugs, then magic is evil, then magic some delicate tool or weapon/inner strength nonsense.

+1 Cordy best girl. Another reason S4 onwards mostly awful.

magic was gay sex first, then drugs, then magic was loose morals, then Spice World
 
i liked the writing

but the story/setting of the earlier seasons were better. it was distinctly 1990s and distinctly high school

then the plot became about generic young adult stuff and bad scifi which had nothing to do with the era or a socal suburb


It became about young adults because... the characters grew up ?

I mean, it makes more sense to me than pulling a Teen Wolf and spending six seasons in high school.
 

PK Gaming

Member
1. Favorite season?

S5, with S6 close behind it. 5 is peak Buffy, and 6 is absurdly underrated. It has the highest highs, and it's lows aren't that bad.

2. Favorite episode?

The Zeppo. Not fade away is my favorite Buffyverse episode.

3. Favorite character?

Buffy. Angel in Angel (he's awful in Buffy.)

5 > 6 > 3 > 4 > 2 > 7 > 1

 
One plot point that I always thought was weird was that apparently, Glory was supposed to be merged with Xander. I like and dislike the idea, because I like the idea of Glory being someone very close to the group, but I think it should have been Tara. The scene in "Family", where Spike punches Tara to reveal that she's human, would have been cool to have been a twist where Spike faked it and is then aware of Tara. Keeping a secret. Would have helped his weird little wildcard role, and it would have given Tara something to do that wasn't just a fuckbuddy for Willow.

But what we got was pretty damn great, so I'm not complaining.
Maybe you weren't around at the time, but pretty much everyone hated Cordy by the end of season 3.

They took a funny, likable character with lots of personality and turned her into a sanctimonious moralizer and dullard love interest for Angel. The whole bit about her getting possessed away at the end of Season 3 came as a change of plans, because there were a lot of people who did not want to see Cordelia and Angel as a couple.

When Charisma Carpenter pissed off Joss and THEN came to set pregnant, forcing them to re-write their plans for the year, she got written off. Spike in, Cordy out was perhaps the biggest cast upgrade the show ever had.
While the pissing of Joss thing really wasn't what happened. S3 Cordelia sucked. 2>5>4>1>3 is how those seasons go for me. Maybe switch S5&2. S3 is pretty terrible by comparison to the rest. No cohesion with shallow villains that are bordering on incompetence (except Wolfram and Hart, which was completely incompetent aside from Lilah) and complete focus largely on love triangles. Angel > Fred > Wesley, which became Gunn > Fred > Wesley. Then there was Cordy > Angel > Darla which then became Groo > Cordy > Angel. Plus S3 has two of my least favorite episodes in the entire series. Holtz could have been great, but was sandwiched by Sahjan (who is a walking contradiction in and of himself) and Wolfram and Hart (who as I said, were largely incompetent outside of Lilah).

And then you can stack on Saint Cordelia.
EDIT: Yeah, screw it. Not gonna continue this argument. Back to Buffy.

tumblr_lw5hz9YJnz1r180ox.gif
The fucking Cheese Man. "Restless" is always a weird one for me.
Me too. Everyone gives Charisma so much shit, but as far as I recall, and I was HEAVY into fandom at the time, the pregnancy was a surprise, so they had to do some rewrites, and then Charisma got SUPER FUCKING SICK and had to be on bed rest half the pregnancy, hence all the scenes of Cordy in the bed or sitting and hardly any of her on her feet, so even more rewrites. Hell, I am impressed she even came to work in those conditions. Under those conditions I am sure a season is going to be fucked, but they did great with all the scary.

I never heard of her having a beef with Joss.
She didn't. It's been said in multiple interviews with both of them that there was no beef, and that they both had a lot going on at the time. She does mention that she thinks he was mad at her, but she wasn't so sure, and he mentions that he may have acted a bit dickish (I guess is the only word I can think of at the moment), but both of them put that behind them on good terms.

You've basically got the whole situation down. In fact, the rewrites weren't super extensive. The general concept remained: Cordelia returns to Earth, bodyjacked by Jasmine, and slowly infiltrates and destroys AI from within. Manipulating Connor and the rest of the group into fully cementing her power. Then her and Connor would be sacrificed in order to stop "Jasmine."

All in all, it largely stayed the same: Cordelia was bodyjacked and did work with Connor in bringing Jasmine into the world, and they both were sacrificed at the end (Cordelia was put into a magic coma that she never awoke from and Connor's reality had been rewritten). The creepy Connor daddy shit was the best idea they came up with to work with the pregnancy. There was no abuse towards her on set, though there was some frustration. And why wouldn't there be? Constant rewrites and delays coupled with pressure from a studio?
AND IT WOULD HAGE BEEN PERFECT. Helpless little Wilow, discovering she has an affinity for magic, gets addicted the power of NOT BEING FUCKING HELPLESS anymore and suddenly she's stronger than the fucking Slayer and BAM. It all makes sense.

At least we got that scene where Buffy casually trusts Spike to take Dawn to the hospital even though they were currently fighting lol
If you go back and watch the series, Willow does slowly get more and more addicted to magic. Tara intentionally sabotages spells in S4 and S5, and straight up states that she's scared of Willow's potential. The same Willow that effectively gave Dawn a spellbook that could resurrect Joyce. Something even Spike warned against.
Real Best Girl

LL
I am upset that they never did more with her. She was basically just there to be important to help Gunn's character arc by the end of S4.
Does it hurt to be so wrong?
I agree to an extent. I've said it previously, but I like S6. It's a strong, solid season. Doesn't have the highest highs, but it doesn't have the lowest lows. It never strays from the baseline it creates, which is both good and bad. And I like the different theme, where there is no true big bad. If I recall, Jane Espenson said that to her, life was the big bad. "The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it" basically became the central theme for S6, and I really enjoyed that. A lot of strong focus on characters and character development. The Trio is a nuisance more than anything, with Warren slowly becoming more and more horrible. Dark Willow is only for the last few episodes and is the culmination of Willow's arc plus immense tragedy. You also have Amy, but she didn't do too much outside of her interactions with Willow. After that she's irrelevant until a one-off episode in S7. Another character I wish they had done more with.
Can we take one moment to collectively hate Kennedy for existing? What a trash heap character.
Didn't hate her. Rhona was worse. Kennedy was fine, but I can agree that the Potentials could have been done a lot better. Plus, without a reveal as to how the Slayer line got so fucked up (it's heavily inferred to be Willow's spell that resurrected Buffy, but never stated) it really feels like it's....lost, or something. Also, it would have been cool to bring Kendra back.
 

Media

Member
One plot point that I always thought was weird was that apparently, Glory was supposed to be merged with Xander. I like and dislike the idea, because I like the idea of Glory being someone very close to the group, but I think it should have been Tara. The scene in "Family", where Spike punches Tara to reveal that she's human, would have been cool to have been a twist where Spike faked it and is then aware of Tara. Keeping a secret. Would have helped his weird little wildcard role, and it would have given Tara something to do that wasn't just a fuckbuddy for Willow.

But what we got was pretty damn great, so I'm not complaining.

While the pissing of Joss thing really wasn't what happened. S3 Cordelia sucked. 2>5>4>1>3 is how those seasons go for me. Maybe switch S5&2. S3 is pretty terrible by comparison to the rest. No cohesion with shallow villains that are bordering on incompetence (except Wolfram and Hart, which was completely incompetent aside from Lilah) and complete focus largely on love triangles. Angel > Fred > Wesley, which became Gunn > Fred > Wesley. Then there was Cordy > Angel > Darla which then became Groo > Cordy > Angel. Plus S3 has two of my least favorite episodes in the entire series. Holtz could have been great, but was sandwiched by Sahjan (who is a walking contradiction in and of himself) and Wolfram and Hart (who as I said, were largely incompetent outside of Lilah).

And then you can stack on Saint Cordelia.

The fucking Cheese Man. "Restless" is always a weird one for me.

She didn't. It's been said in multiple interviews with both of them that there was no beef, and that they both had a lot going on at the time. She does mention that she thinks he was mad at her, but she wasn't so sure, and he mentions that he may have acted a bit dickish (I guess is the only word I can think of at the moment), but both of them put that behind them on good terms.

You've basically got the whole situation down. In fact, the rewrites weren't super extensive. The general concept remained: Cordelia returns to Earth, bodyjacked by Jasmine, and slowly infiltrates and destroys AI from within. Manipulating Connor and the rest of the group into fully cementing her power. Then her and Connor would be sacrificed in order to stop "Jasmine."

All in all, it largely stayed the same: Cordelia was bodyjacked and did work with Connor in bringing Jasmine into the world, and they both were sacrificed at the end (Cordelia was put into a magic coma that she never awoke from and Connor's reality had been rewritten). The creepy Connor daddy shit was the best idea they came up with to work with the pregnancy. There was no abuse towards her on set, though there was some frustration. And why wouldn't there be? Constant rewrites and delays coupled with pressure from a studio?

If you go back and watch the series, Willow does slowly get more and more addicted to magic. Tara intentionally sabotages spells in S4 and S5, and straight up states that she's scared of Willow's potential. The same Willow that effectively gave Dawn a spellbook that could resurrect Joyce. Something even Spike warned against.

I am upset that they never did more with her. She was basically just there to be important to help Gunn's character arc by the end of S4.

I agree to an extent. I've said it previously, but I like S6. It's a strong, solid season. Doesn't have the highest highs, but it doesn't have the lowest lows. It never strays from the baseline it creates, which is both good and bad. And I like the different theme, where there is no true big bad. If I recall, Jane Espenson said that to her, life was the big bad. "The hardest thing to do in this world is to live in it" basically became the central theme for S6, and I really enjoyed that. A lot of strong focus on characters and character development. The Trio is a nuisance more than anything, with Warren slowly becoming more and more horrible. Dark Willow is only for the last few episodes and is the culmination of Willow's arc plus immense tragedy. You also have Amy, but she didn't do too much outside of her interactions with Willow. After that she's irrelevant until a one-off episode in S7. Another character I wish they had done more with.

Didn't hate her. Rhona was worse. Kennedy was fine, but I can agree that the Potentials could have been done a lot better. Plus, without a reveal as to how the Slayer line got so fucked up (it's heavily inferred to be Willow's spell that resurrected Buffy, but never stated) it really feels like it's....lost, or something. Also, it would have been cool to bring Kendra back.

I don't know you, but I kinda love you. Thanks for the in depth analysis. This, people,is why they Buffy courses in college like they do Shakespeare. They do that with like..Lost :p
 
I don't know you, but I kinda love you. Thanks for the in depth analysis. This, people,is why they Buffy courses in college like they do Shakespeare. They do that with like..Lost :p

I could talk about BtVS and Angel for extensive periods of time, I assure you.
 

LionPride

Banned
That's not fair. There were 2 (Bianca Lawson in season 2, DB Woodside in season 7). Three if you count the demon in season 3. 4 if you count Riley's best friend in the Initiative. I'm just messing with you, I get your point, Sunnydale was pretty white looking back at it.
Like the one black character with any weight got killed off very quickly. At least Angel had Gunn
 
Xander should have armed up more.

Like wear metal knuckle dusters with crosses on them and a water pistol filled with holy water etc...
 

Bold One

Member
Didn't hate her. Rhona was worse. Kennedy was fine, but I can agree that the Potentials could have been done a lot better. Plus, without a reveal as to how the Slayer line got so fucked up (it's heavily inferred to be Willow's spell that resurrected Buffy, but never stated) it really feels like it's....lost, or something. Also, it would have been cool to bring Kendra back.

Yeah, Rhona sucked but she wasn't being pushed as a prominent character.

Kennedy on the other hand was such a massive downgrade from Tara it was mind-boggling that they thought they pull that one over the audience.
 
ljYrJ.gif



Guy's I am all nostalgic and looking up best Buffy memoments and totally forgot about her 'Fuck off, council' speech.

https://youtu.be/W54l3nHmw-Q

Soooooo goooood

d04ac0b58b66095748482b03a29c6506.gif


Reminds me why the show was so empowering to my generation of women
"Checkpoint" is a dope-ass episode. One of my faves.
still think xander harris is a creep who repeatedly gets rewarded for all his fuck shit tbh
He really doesn't, though. He gets fucked over constantly, and anytime he tries to play it a different way, he gets fucked over more. It's only when he comes to peace with never being the big, tough white knight that he thinks and tries to be that things actually go more his way. Of course, even then he's still an idiot.
Xander should have armed up more.

Like wear metal knuckle dusters with crosses on them and a water pistol filled with holy water etc...
Xander having to be the more clever fighter is a good idea, but Xander isn't all that clever. He's perceptive of people, but not a clever fighter.
Yeah, Rhona sucked but she wasn't being pushed as a prominent character.

Kennedy on the other hand was such a massive downgrade from Tara it was mind-boggling that they thought they pull that one over the audience.
I get what they were going for with Kennedy, as someone who was more aggressive in the relationship, since Willow's previous big relationships had decidedly more passive people. I get that, and I do like the idea, but I can agree that Kennedy was annoying. The reason why I don't dislike her that much is because everyone in S7 whines all the time. Except for Dawn. Michelle Trachtenberg just happens to have that tone in her voice.
 

Sheroking

Member
While the pissing of Joss thing really wasn't what happened. S3 Cordelia sucked. 2>5>4>1>3 is how those seasons go for me. .

It's exactly what happened.

Charisma and Joss had a strained relationship and she unexpectedly got pregnant early in the season. She threw shade for YEARS because they fired her for being pregnant, and we know they didn't love each other on Buffy.
 

Aske

Member
Have to say, I liked Kennedy a lot. Looking back, I also appreciate that Willow's visible homosexuality didn't die with Tara. I think Dawn is the only character I could really do without on the show. Not that I hated every minute of her; I just felt she consistently detracted from my enjoyment rather than adding to it.

BKatastrophe - just wanted to say I'm also loving your considered and erudite posts. Such a pleasure to read so many thoughts about this show from everyone in this thread.
 

jb1234

Member
I just watched "Hush." Obviously, it's a terrific episode of television but the score is crazy good. I don't think the show ever really recovered from the switch of composers in season 5.
 

Media

Member
I think I'm going to make my 13 year old son start watching it with me. That's about the age I started watching. But he's already rolled his eyes at the name Buffy so I don't know how successful I'm going to be but I'm going to make him. I'm his mother and he will listen to me dammit.

nOxxyyD.gif
 

Keri

Member
Buffy and Angel are probably the television shows I've re-watched the most. (Along with Quantum Leap, for some reason). I re-watched both a few months ago, while I was on maternity leave and up all night, every night. I continue to love them. It's weird that it's been 20 years since I started watching Buffy.
 

Aske

Member
My son rolled his eyes, made a face, and huffed when I asked him to start Buffy with me. I am cry.

I hated TV from the olden days at that age too. I'm sure he'll realise that culture peaked in the late 90s in a couple of years. And as awesome as Buffy is; as relevant as it remains, he's still living in a totally different world. I'd guess the lack of cellphones alone would make it hard for today's teens to relate to. What's the closest Buffy substitute today? Never seen the show, but is it Glee?
 
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