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Chicago gay pride parade expels Star of David flags

E

EmiPrime

Member
phanphare said:
because the opening for this particular interaction was the star of david. if they had held the same beliefs but weren't carrying a star of david flag nothing would have happened.

not to mention that the person quoted in the article believed in a two-state solution with an independent palestine. isn't that a good thing?
Click to expand...

Not sure how many times this needs to be explained to you.

As for "two-state solution" that's lip service and misdirection. Look at a map and see how much Palestinian territory shrinks and how many settlements in the West Bank pop up every year. On top of that the Gaza Strip is utterly buggered too. A two state solution isn't happening, it's a laughable platitude.
 
D

Deepwater

Member
GiantEnemyGoomba said:
It blows my mind when marginalized groups knock each other down like this
Click to expand...

comments like these in threads like this suck and you all should stop making them. Are straight white males the only demographic allowed to have disagreements and conflict without observers passing by to make paternalistic comments about what they think folk should be doing?

There isn't a social movement (based on marginalized identity) born out of this country that didn't have CONSTANT intra/inter-conflicts. Yall would know this if ya knowledge on activist movements were deeper than a shallow puddle. So marginalized people don't all fucking agree. So? And? The fuck They never had. That's called being human.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
The notion that a striped flag with a Star of David in more or less the same size and position as on the actual Israeli flag is purely an anodyne expression of Jewish and LGBTQ identity and nothing more is absurdly disingenuous. Come the hell on.

The valid question raised by this incident is to what extent Zionism should be welcome under the broader tent of leftism in 2017, not whether this specific anti-Zionist action on the part of the Dyke March was anti-Semitic. Because it wasn't.
 
A

azyless

Member
Sai-kun said:
are you from chicago/did you go to the march?
Click to expand...
I went on the Chicago Dyke March social media accounts where they explicitly describe themselves as "dyke, queer, bisexual, trans" (not even targeted towards women) organisation.
Where they state that butch lesbians posess male privilege and uphold toxic masculinity. Where they state that "Not all dykes are lesbian" and "Men can be dykes".
They themselves describe themselves as "QTPOC".
 
P

phanphare

Banned
EmiPrime said:
Not sure how many times this needs to be explained to you.

As for "two-state solution" that's lip service and misdirection. Look at a map and see how much Palestinian territory shrinks and how many settlements in the West Bank pop up every year. On top of that the Gaza Strip is utterly buggered too. A two state solution isn't happening, it's a laughable platitude.
Click to expand...

what does it being a laughable platitude mean going forward? what is the ideal end goal then if not a two-state solution?
 
S

squidyj

Member
phanphare said:
because the opening for this particular interaction was the star of david. if they had held the same beliefs but weren't carrying a star of david flag nothing would have happened.

not to mention that the person quoted in the article believed in a two-state solution with an independent palestine. isn't that a good thing?
Click to expand...

You're talking about a person in a leadership role at an organization that did this

August 3rd 2014 (i realize the year isn't shown on the page) was near the end of Operation Protective Edge, a conflict in which over 2000 palestinians were killed of which even Israel's own Ministry of Foreign affairs admits 45% were civilians and the UN Human Rights Council puts that figure at 65%. 4 Civilians were killed by hamas rocket fire.

Can you really take her two state claims seriously when she's part of an organization that stans for an Israel and an IDF engaged in that?
 
L

LinkAndEpona

Banned
EmiPrime said:
Zionism is racism. Sounds like the marchers weren't expelled for their flags but for expressing racist beliefs.
Click to expand...

The ill will towards Zionism doesn't quite make sense, Israel has Muslims in their parliaments and have equal rights for all. (Im definitely aware of the discrimination the ultra-orthodox exhibit though). meanwhile the Palestinians have elected government leaders with blatant public policies supporting global eradication of all Jews.
 
D

Deepwater

Member
Rest said:
Many people on GAF have said that if you're a minority you're automatically not a bigot, no matter what bigoted bullshit you say or do. They stand by that nonsense steadfastly.
Click to expand...

Billy_Pilgrim said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=233893790&postcount=294
Click to expand...


On the very next page of the same exact thread

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=233894672&postcount=303

Edit: If your litmus is "people on GAF have said that minorities can't be racist, OR prejudiced, OR bigoted" then you will find that I do not pass because I always say minorities can be bigoted.

Thanks for playing though
 
Dude Abides

Dude Abides

Banned
LinkAndEpona said:
The ill will towards Zionism doesn't quite make sense, Israel has Muslims in their parliaments and have equal rights for all. (Im definitely aware of the discrimination the ultra-orthodox exhibit though). meanwhile the Palestinians have elected government leaders with blatant public policies supporting global eradication of all Jews.
Click to expand...

The entire goal of Zionism is that Israel is and must remain majority ethnically Jewish. What would you say if, say, Alabama passed an amendment to its constitution that Alabama must always remain majority white?
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
One of the women expelled posted her account here:

Yesterday I was removed from the Chicago Dyke March. I am so upset that I'm no longer upset, so here is a faithful narrative of every event.

I wanted to be in public as a gay Jew of Persian and German heritage. Nothing more, nothing less. So I made a shirt that said "Proud Jewish Dyke" and hoisted a big Jewish Pride flag -- a rainbow flag with a Star of David in the center, the centuries-old symbol of the Jewish people. I snapped a picture before the March, and in retrospect my happy, proud smile breaks my heart.

I knew the March was a politically fraught atmosphere, so I went in very carefully. I ignored people side-eyeing me. I stayed away from Palestinian flags and Palestinian chants. I actively walked away from people who directly tried to instigate conflict. I thought maybe if I played by their rules, I could just be Jewish in public.

No such luck. During the picnic in the park, organizers in their official t-shirts began whispering and pointing at me and soon, a delegation came over, announcing they'd been sent by the organizers. They told me my choices were to roll up my Jewish Pride flag or leave. The Star of David makes it look too much like the Israeli flag, they said, and it triggers people and makes them feel unsafe. This was their complaint.

I tried to explain -- no, no! It's the ubiquitous symbol of Judaism. I just want to be Jewish in public. No luck. So I tried using their language. This is an intersectional march, I said. This is my intersection. I'm supposed to be able to celebrate it here. No, they said.

People feel unsafe. I tried again to explain about the Star of David. I tried again to use their language, to tell them that not being able to be visibly, flagrantly, proudly Jewish on my terms makes *me* feel unsafe. This was what I said.

But it didn't work. After some fruitless back-and-forth, during which more people joined the organizers' delegation and used their deeper voices, larger physical size, and greater numbers to insistently talk over my attempts at explanation, at conversation, I recognized a losing battle and left sobbing.

I was thrown out of Dyke March for being Jewish. And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! And yes, Israel exists in a complicated way. But in this case, it doesn't matter what Israel does or doesn't do. This was about being Jewish in public, and I was thrown out for being Jewish, for being the "wrong" kind of Jew, the kind of Jew who shows up with a big Jewish star on a flag. No matter how much I tried to avoid conflict, to explain. Oh, maybe there was a way I could have stayed, but rolling up my beautiful proud flag for them would have been an even bigger loss.

This was my community, where for four years I have shown up, stood up, and helped out, and I am broken-hearted.

(I do not want this to turn into a debate about Israel and Palestine in the comments. That is not what this is about. This is about being Jewish in public. Also, I have made this post public and do not mind sharing done respectfully.)
Click to expand...

I'll take her at her word that she didn't see her flag as having anything to do with Israel, but I don't find this particularly sympathetic. There's zero indication that she even considered why her flag might make members of other marginalized communities uncomfortable or that there might be any merit to their concerns; instead, her claim to victimhood allows her to distort the reality of "I was asked to remove a flag that made other people uncomfortable" into "I was kicked out for being Jewish."

Intersectionality is about all forms of oppression being interconnected, not "all forms of oppression except those whose acknowledgement might meaningfully challenge my white liberal worldview."

Also, LOL at not wanting to turn this into a debate about Israel and Palestine. Sorry, you don't get to do that when that's the entire reason your flag wasn't welcome at the Dyke March in the first place.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
phanphare said:
what does it being a laughable platitude mean going forward? what is the ideal end goal then if not a two-state solution?
Click to expand...

"If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention."

The Israeli state is content with the status quo and any attempts by the international community to upset that will be slapped down by the USA's veto. They'll keep grabbing land bit by bit and the Gaza Strip will continue to be a hell hole.

re two states, using which borders? Israel aren't going to give back land without a civil war among Israelis breaking out and the current West Bank resembles Swiss Cheese not a credible state.
 
M

Mahonay

Banned
Deepwater said:
On the very next page of the same exact thread

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=233894672&postcount=303

Edit: If your litmus is "people on GAF have said that minorities can't be racist, OR prejudiced, OR bigoted" then you will find that I do not pass because I always say minorities can be bigoted.

Thanks for playing though
Click to expand...
Racists are prejudiced towards other races. Being racist means also being prejudiced, that's a weird separation to try and make. I'm confused as fuck.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
can't the people who support a "two state solution" just also have a "two march solution" wherein they just have their own march separately but equally away from the other march?
 
D

Deepwater

Member
Mahonay said:
Racists are prejudiced towards other races. Being racist means also being prejudiced, that's a weird separating to try and make. I'm confused as fuck.
Click to expand...

see

NoblesseOblige said:
That's a completely different statement than "a minority person can't be bigoted". It's a debate about institutional racism and power balance. There has never once been a significant push on GAF that a minority person can't be prejudice or bigoted.
Click to expand...

I'm not here to argue about this, because this is not the thread for it. Statements were made that were false in nature. I corrected them.
 
F

Fercho

Member
Somebody should have pulled the Palestinian flag and all of the parties involved start rocking that march like there is no tomorrow.

It is really sad seeing persecuted minorities going against each other.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Father_Brain said:
Also, LOL at not wanting to turn this into a debate about Israel and Palestine. Sorry, you don't get to do that when that's the entire reason your flag wasn't welcome at the Dyke March.
Click to expand...

Yep she's an obvious shit stirrer acting in bad faith and now trying to play the victim despite being a member of a pink washing group. She knew what she was doing and she got what she wanted I guess.
 
P

phanphare

Banned
Father_Brain said:
One of the women expelled posted her account here:

Yesterday I was removed from the Chicago Dyke March. I am so upset that I'm no longer upset, so here is a faithful narrative of every event.

I wanted to be in public as a gay Jew of Persian and German heritage. Nothing more, nothing less. So I made a shirt that said "Proud Jewish Dyke" and hoisted a big Jewish Pride flag -- a rainbow flag with a Star of David in the center, the centuries-old symbol of the Jewish people. I snapped a picture before the March, and in retrospect my happy, proud smile breaks my heart.

I knew the March was a politically fraught atmosphere, so I went in very carefully. I ignored people side-eyeing me. I stayed away from Palestinian flags and Palestinian chants. I actively walked away from people who directly tried to instigate conflict. I thought maybe if I played by their rules, I could just be Jewish in public.

No such luck. During the picnic in the park, organizers in their official t-shirts began whispering and pointing at me and soon, a delegation came over, announcing they'd been sent by the organizers. They told me my choices were to roll up my Jewish Pride flag or leave. The Star of David makes it look too much like the Israeli flag, they said, and it triggers people and makes them feel unsafe. This was their complaint.

I tried to explain -- no, no! It's the ubiquitous symbol of Judaism. I just want to be Jewish in public. No luck. So I tried using their language. This is an intersectional march, I said. This is my intersection. I'm supposed to be able to celebrate it here. No, they said.

People feel unsafe. I tried again to explain about the Star of David. I tried again to use their language, to tell them that not being able to be visibly, flagrantly, proudly Jewish on my terms makes *me* feel unsafe. This was what I said.

But it didn't work. After some fruitless back-and-forth, during which more people joined the organizers' delegation and used their deeper voices, larger physical size, and greater numbers to insistently talk over my attempts at explanation, at conversation, I recognized a losing battle and left sobbing.

I was thrown out of Dyke March for being Jewish. And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! And yes, Israel exists in a complicated way. But in this case, it doesn't matter what Israel does or doesn't do. This was about being Jewish in public, and I was thrown out for being Jewish, for being the "wrong" kind of Jew, the kind of Jew who shows up with a big Jewish star on a flag. No matter how much I tried to avoid conflict, to explain. Oh, maybe there was a way I could have stayed, but rolling up my beautiful proud flag for them would have been an even bigger loss.

This was my community, where for four years I have shown up, stood up, and helped out, and I am broken-hearted.

(I do not want this to turn into a debate about Israel and Palestine in the comments. That is not what this is about. This is about being Jewish in public. Also, I have made this post public and do not mind sharing done respectfully.)
Click to expand...

thank you for posting this and this is generally my larger issue with this story is Judaism and Jewish symbols being automatically linked with pro Zionist agendas
 
P

Poor GRIMES

Banned
Billy_Pilgrim said:
You said white people should be disenfranchised. That is textbook bigotry. Which is why I remembered your response.
Click to expand...
I need the juicy receipts

4293a5644b008633f33717a26aea0a0f.jpg
 
F

Fercho

Member
EmiPrime said:
That's not what this is.

If Milo or some other white nationalist twat got asked to leave an LGBT event would you be saying the same thing?
Click to expand...

White nationalist are not minorities as far as i know, and both Milo and white supremacist promotes hate speech regardless of the event they participate.

Pulling some star of David flags....i don't know....the situation in Israel is really complicated but i will not classify it as hate speech or with some malicious intent, but this is obviously open to interpretation by some replies on this thread.
 
C

Cocaloch

Member
LinkAndEpona said:
The ill will towards Zionism doesn't quite make sense, Israel has Muslims in their parliaments and have equal rights for all. (Im definitely aware of the discrimination the ultra-orthodox exhibit though). meanwhile the Palestinians have elected government leaders with blatant public policies supporting global eradication of all Jews.
Click to expand...

Do you just know absolutely nothing about the entire contemporary issue? Clearly you at least aren't particularly interested in its history.

phanphare said:
thank you for posting this and this is generally my larger issue with this story is Judaism and Jewish symbols being automatically linked with pro Zionist agendas
Click to expand...

Except you keep on missing the words and actions that helped make those links. Why is that? This didn't happen out of thin air, as the story makes quite clear
 
M

mugwhump

Member
Father_Brain said:
One of the women expelled posted her account here:



I'll take her at her word that she didn't see her flag as having anything to do with Israel, but I don't find this particularly sympathetic. There's zero indication that she even considered why her flag might make members of other marginalized communities uncomfortable or that there might be any merit to their concerns; instead, her claim to victimhood allows her to distort the reality of "I was asked to remove a flag that made other people uncomfortable" into "I was kicked out for being Jewish."

Intersectionality is about all forms of oppression being interconnected, not "all forms of oppression except those whose acknowledgement might meaningfully challenge my white liberal worldview."

Also, LOL at not wanting to turn this into a debate about Israel and Palestine. Sorry, you don't get to do that when that's the entire reason your flag wasn't welcome at the Dyke March in the first place.
Click to expand...
Yeah I dunno man. How is she supposed to express a Jewish identity without a star of David? (I legitimately don't know what other symbol she could use)

Banning that seems to go too far, assuming she didn't express support for Zionism like OP lady did.
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
So were they actually evangelizing pro-Zionist things, or did they just bring the Jewish flag, mind their own business, have some people ask if they were Zionists, and get expelled when they truthfully answered "yes"? If the former, I am sympathetic, but if the latter, sorry, it's not particularly better.
 
K

knkng

Member
I disagreed that police should be restricted from wearing their uniforms during the Toronto pride parade, but the consensus was clearly against me in that case. Fair enough, majority rules.

However, in the first thread regarding the Toronto situation, i postulated that this should also allow for the removal of religious and other potentially offensive iconography. Personally, I would have had any visual representation of the Catholic Church removed (if it were up to me). Of course people claimed that was rediculous.

Yet here we are. Once you open the gates for the removal of offensive imagery and iconography, you must open yourself to respect the sensibilities of others. There is valid claim for the removal of the Star of David. You can't just pander to the groups you personally agree with, and dismiss others. Some of you guys just want to have your cake and eat it too.

Pride parade is now a political chess piece. Lie in your fucking bed.
 
L

Lo-Volt

Member
LinkAndEpona said:
The ill will towards Zionism doesn't quite make sense, Israel has Muslims in their parliaments and have equal rights for all. (Im definitely aware of the discrimination the ultra-orthodox exhibit though). meanwhile the Palestinians have elected government leaders with blatant public policies supporting global eradication of all Jews.
Click to expand...

You're misleading us to the point of telling a really blatant lie, considering how poorly Arab MKs are treated by the Jewish majority in the Knesset (coalition building at its finest) or how acrimonious their relationships are with their peers in the body.

And you're absolutely right about how many Palestinian leaders have used apocalyptic language about Jews as opposed to Israeli policy, but even that isn't as monolithic as you're portraying here, especially considering peace process efforts.
 
P

phanphare

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
So were they actually evangelizing pro-Zionist things, or did they just bring the Jewish flag, mind their own business, have some people ask if they were Zionists, and get expelled when they truthfully answered "yes"? If the former, I am sympathetic, but if the latter, sorry, it's not particularly better.
Click to expand...

based on the article in the OP involving the incident with Ms Grauer it seems like the former but based on the track record of the person involved as brought up in this thread that might not be accurate

based on this post:

Father_Brain said:
One of the women expelled posted her account here:
Click to expand...

it seems like it didn't even get as far as asking about Zionism, it was either roll up the flag or leave
 
Jag

Jag

Member
anaron said:
This is straight up anti-semitism but it's alright I guess cuz Zionism?
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what people here are saying.

There is no other symbol for Jewish Identity other than the Star of David. The flags weren't in Israeli colors. But apparently people got triggered because "Jews".
 
D

Deepwater

Member
Rest said:
But people on GAF told me minorities can't be bigots.
Click to expand...

NoblesseOblige said:
Did they really? Or are you making that up.
Click to expand...

Rest said:
Many people on GAF have said that if you're a minority you're automatically not a bigot, no matter what bigoted bullshit you say or do. They stand by that nonsense steadfastly.
Click to expand...

NoblesseOblige said:
Yeah gonna need see some proof.
Click to expand...

Billy_Pilgrim said:
Deepwater's post history for starters
Click to expand...


Deepwater said:
On the very next page of the same exact thread

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=233894672&postcount=303

Edit: If your litmus is "people on GAF have said that minorities can't be racist, OR prejudiced, OR bigoted" then you will find that I do not pass because I always say minorities can be bigoted.

Thanks for playing though
Click to expand...

Billy_Pilgrim said:
You said white people should be disenfranchised. That is textbook bigotry. Which is why I remembered your response.
Click to expand...

Keep my name off your fingertips if you so pressed about my ideologies that you bring me up at first thought. None of your babbling has anything to do with this thread. If you got issues with what I said in that thread about a satirical essay you can PM me. Just know that what the hell you said was false in regards to the conversation ITT being had. Now that I proven you wrong, you now want to bring up my unrelated arguments from an old and locked thread to somehow make me the bad guy in here.

Last time I'm gonna respond to you about this ITT
 
C

Cocaloch

Member
Jag said:
That's pretty much what people here are saying.
Click to expand...

Except it's not what people where saying at all. You can't divorce flying the star of David from its political context. You can make a claim of ignorance, but you can't do that in good faith if you have explicit links to political Zionist movements like the person in this story.
 
E

EmiPrime

Member
Fercho said:
White nationalist are not minorities as far as i know, and both Milo and white supremacist promotes hate speech regardless of the event they participate.

Pulling some star of David flags....i don't know....the situation in Israel is really complicated but i will not classify it as hate speech or with some malicious intent, but this is obviously open to interpretation by some replies on this thread.
Click to expand...

Okay, if you want to split hairs, how about transphobic lesbians protesting against trans inclusion, would you lament them being asked to leave an LGBT event because it's "persecuted minorities going against each other"?

You can't be politically neutral about such things, it's cowardice to attempt that and if Zionists want to bring their baggage and do their pink washing thing at pride, they are going to get called out and hopefully asked to leave. State propagandists aren't welcome at the best of times, even less so those promoting a state (Israel) and a racist ideology (Zionism) that inflicts apartheid and ethnic cleansing on another people and using that state's vaguely tolerant attitude to LGBT people to deflect attention from that.
 
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