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Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Kayant said:
I mean you're really overstating the clockspeed differences here.

Just my opinion, just like you have yours, we don't have to agree to anything or accept what some else says.
We all are bothered by certain things, this isn't no different, the point I tried to make was they didn't include a UHD, yet they sell 4K movies, CPU clock speed is important they didn't seem to think so (twice).

Lady Gaia · Jun 25, 2017

Inuhanyou said:
BC with previous gen games basically eliminates this need for cross gen and 'launch titles'.

You'll never get a substantial installed base if there are literally no titles that require the new hardware. Something needs to jump start adoption for a generation, and it's exclusive titles.

Cross-gen is an interesting market adaptation. Usually it's riding the cost tails of the exclusive titles: the exclusives give you a reason to buy the hardware, and the cross-gen ports give you something else to play once you have it. The potential for these titles to be delivered as a single SKU is potentially very interesting, because even if you don't buy the new system you slowly accumulate titles that can take advantage of it down the road when you do jump in.

Reasons for not following this path are numerous: a clean start has historically given platforms a chance to reset the anti-piracy arms race. Novelty can mean the new control scheme doesn't physically support the prior generation's feature set. Architectural changes can make compatibility difficult or impossible. To assume that none of these factors will be an issue is a big assumption.

Kayant · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
Just my opinion, just like you have yours, we don't have to agree to anything or accept what some else says.
We all are bothered by certain things, this isn't no different, the point I tried to make was they didn't include a UHD, yet they sell 4K movies, CPU clock speed is important they didn't seem to think so (twice).

Sure but it seems a bit much to be disappointed about it given the reality of things so far.

Am not saying it isn't an important metric overall just it doesn't make sense to care about it in terms of this gen when things like GPU, memory have been more important and what has actual had an impact in majority of games.

So saying "makes you wonder if they know what they are doing." "yet they look completely incompetent when it matters." - Doesn't make sense given the results.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Kayant said:
Am not saying it isn't an important metric overall just it doesn't make sense to care about it in terms of this gen when things like GPU, memory have been more important and what has actual had an impact in majority of games.

I believe the link you used was mainly talking about a sudden jump from 30 to 60FPS.
I think anyone with common sense would know and agree that would be silly to expect.
E.g. say a game is floating around 50-55fps, aiming a bit higher like MS did could have made it rock solid/locked.
Some games do run at unlocked framerates or have the option for it.

Kayant · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
I believe the link you used was mainly talking about a sudden jump from 30 to 60FPS.
I think anyone with common sense would know and agree that would be silly to expect.
E.g. say a game is floating around 50-55fps, aiming a bit higher like MS did could have made it rock solid/locked.

??? There is nothing about 30-60fps in the link I posted. It was a summary of devs comments I posted in a reply to a comment showing why people saying "A lot of people even think the Xbox One stock has the same/worse CPU than base PS4. " isn't far off the mark.

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
They are a cheapskate company, long ass generations, cheap components, dropped the ball on the CPU side 2x now

As long as memory prices aren't going down or there's a revolutionary breakthrough that will bring cost down a lot then I wouldn't expect more than 20Gb at best in this thing.

Oh yeah Sony, total cheapskates...... just like Microsoft, who have a very similar crappy CPU.

and the last (long) generation had nothing to do with Sony, plus 360 lasted the same amount of time.

As for RAM, I'm kinda expecting 16GB of RAM anyway (24GB if cost is low) but 7nm Zen 2 CPU should be cheap enough by 2020, so would make a bigger difference to next gen systems than RAM.

Most PC's used for gaming still don't have 16GB-24GB RAM, so I don't see the need for consoles to have more than that, 16GB for a console would be a decent amount.

gatti-man · Jun 25, 2017

kungfuian said:
I know their are problems with starting new generations but I'm not sure no generations is the solution per say. For example we saw a move by developers this last gen where many large budget multiplat games were designed to target multiple generations of consoles. It's pretty well established that during the hardware transition this is important so they can sell enough software while the new install base grows and so gamers of the last gen don't feel abandoned during the transition. Not sure how moving to an iterative hardware model would really be that different (maybe some difference in development costs). And I'd much rather have a mix of these multi-generational games as well as dedicated exclusives (shallow as those launch titles might be) than no exclusives at all.

I don't know. I feel like rather than staying with the same generation model or moving to a fully iterative model the solution might be something in between. For example how about a PS5 that not only plays both PS4 games and PS5 exclusives (basically just a return to backward compatibility of all prior Sony machines), but also games made for a NEW CROSS GENERATIONAL GAME RIGHTS/DELIVERY SYSTEM. So we get both a PS4 and PS5 disc in the same box, Download codes/rights to both versions, or both PS5 and PS4 games on the same disc or any combination of the above. Anything that gives me the rights to those games on both new and old Sony platforms for one fee. There are many ways to scale and deliver software so the last gen user base isn't abandoned and developers can still sell to that wider install base if they want to.

But endlessly iterative consoles will bring just as many if not worse problems than generational hard stops. The ones I keep hearing are-

1. PAYING FOR HARDWARE THAT ISN'T FULLY UTILIZED- Games will be held back to accommodate lower end machines and will be designed for the most active user base of these machines (same as on PC). Because of this the higher end machines will rarely get pushed if ever, the same way your high end PC's don't. This sucks because you are paying a premium for hardware that won't get pushed at all. From a purchasing stand point you have effectively LOWERED THE VALUE PROPOSITION of your new hardware.

2. I DON'T NEED IT- If their are no Generational exclusives and all new games are made to be playable on the older hardware (forward compatibility) the incentive to purchase the more expensive new hardware is significantly reduced (for example the PS4 Pro isn' needed to play PS4 games and so it's selling only 20% of total PS4 platform sales). Plain and simple why do I NEED a new machine if the old one still plays all my games? Sure they are slightly prettier but from a sales stand point you have once again LOWERED THE VALUE PROPOSITION for new hardware.

3. MIGHT AS WELL WAIT- This really affects us Gafer types. The average early adopter (GAF user/PC gamers/technophile) want the newest and best machines to play our games on and we spend a lot on this hobby to do so. For example I have spent many thousands to keep my PC in VIVE ready status (1080ti here I come .

But consoles have always been a different story. They have always been good for 5-6 years (at least Sony machines are), but moving this to every 3 years is crazy expensive for what they are. From an early adopters perspective OUR PURCHASE JUST BECAME LESS VALUABLE because it will only be the best for a few years and then I have to buy again. Why buy the newest machine when in a few years the next one will come along?

4. Frequent releases of endlessly iterative hardware LACKS THE IMPACT of larger generational shifts. New generations, as crazy as they must be for everyone in the industry, inspire gamers to stay with this hobby. Going to an iterative model will dilute the impact of each hardware release and take a lot of excitement out of the industry. Plus why get new hardware if the differences aren't very pronounced? (again we are talking about the visible software differences not the raw hardware specs).

I see these things as having a hugely negative impact on the console gaming market and to be honest I hope they don't succeed.

I find it odd that you admit to keeping your pc cutting edge and yet don't want the same for your console because of being held back by a older console. You do realize this is exactly what happens in PC land with every single game since Crysis right? A game can easily be made with a lower and higher spec in mind.

The only reason I can think of for abondoning current gen hardware for one last cycle is the current CPU situation is incredibly weak by comparison to even a budget pc.

Also I want to address your claim of impact. I think this will be less and less a thing as consoles improve. How do you advertise 4k graphics to the mainstream market on a 720p tv channel or Facebook stream? You can't.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Yautja_Warrior said:
Oh yeah Sony, total cheapskates...... just like Microsoft, who have a very similar crappy CPU. and the last (long) generation had nothing to do with Sony, plus 360 lasted the same amount of time.

Most PC's used for gaming still don't have 16GB-24GB RAM, so I don't see the need for consoles to have more than that, 16GB for a console would be a decent amount.

Then what was the cause it lasted so long according to you?
PC gaming isn't using as much because as have been pointed out games are developed and held back by consoles, no one is pushing anything on the PC side of things.
Crytek did that with Crysis but after that no one so it's not surprising they aren't using more.

As I pointed out in another post, some games tend to hit 10Gb of VRAM in 4k, it's a rare thing but it happens still, on the console side of things you'd probably have 3-4Gb reserved for OS so that leaves us with 12-14Gb which is supposed to last till 2030 probably.
Doesn't seem right, does it?

Kayant said:
??? There is nothing about 30-60fps in the link I posted. It was a summary of devs comments I posted in a reply to a comment showing why people saying "A lot of people even think the Xbox One stock has the same/worse CPU than base PS4. " isn't far off the mark.

Too many quotes of quotes of quotes, lost me there.

cooldawn · Jun 25, 2017

FZW said:
yup, can't wait for $600 hardware again.

I'd take an expensive, cutting-edge, bespoke solution to actually, really, push the game on than these tweaked off-the-shelf parts.

Technologically this generation is weak. There was a clear shift of focus from both platform holders when designing this generation hardware. I, for the love of games, hope that Sony go balls-to-the-wall and give developers something remarkable.

cakely · Jun 25, 2017

c0de said:
German news site golem.de has an interview online with Shawn Layden where he states that there will definitely be a new generation and not an evolutionary model like with smartphones.

There is even more at the (google translated) link here:

https://translate.google.com/transl...-statt-auf-konsolenevolution-1706-128536.html

Hanmik said:
He also said that there will Never be a game that only runs on PS4 Pro (and not the OG PS4)...

This is just confirming what we already knew. The "generationless" model of a console just isn't practical, because it would involve holding back generation 9 games so that they could run on generation 8 Jaguars. It was never going to happen.

Also, despite some deeply incorrect posters, the PS5 is absolutely not coming out in 2018. I'm guessing 2020, myself, with the official announcement at E3 2020. We'll start seeing rumors of the specs in 2019.

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
Then what was the cause it lasted so long according to you?
PC gaming isn't using as much because as have been pointed out games are developed and held back by consoles, no one is pushing anything on the PC side of things.
Crytek did that with Crysis but after that no one so it's not surprising they aren't using more.

As I pointed out in another post, some games tend to hit 10Gb of VRAM in 4k, it's a rare thing but it happens still, on the console side of things you'd probably have 3-4Gb reserved for OS so that leaves us with 12-14Gb which is supposed to last till 2030 probably.
Doesn't seem right, does it?

Cost of components and the economy / recession are a big reason why gen 7 lasted so long, hardly Sony's fault. Also if you really believe it was Sony, then why did Microsoft ride out the long ass gen too, despite being cheaper than Sony, what's their excuse ?

As for how long next gen lasts, it will depend on a few things. If it's a normal gen cycle (around 6 years) and comes out in 2019 / 2020, it won't need to last to 2030 anyway. A mid gen refresh (if they do it again) could add more RAM if they needed to though.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Yautja_Warrior said:
Cost of components and the economy / recession are a big reason why gen 7 lasted so long, hardly Sony's fault. Also if you really believe it was Sony, then why did Microsoft ride out the long ass gen too, despite being cheaper than Sony, what's their excuse ?

As for how long next gen lasts, it will depend on a few things. If it's a normal gen cycle (around 6 years) and comes out in 2019 / 2020, it won't need to last to 2030 anyway. A mid gen refresh (if they do it again) could add more RAM if they needed to though.

Perhaps because it was profitable for Microsoft, it wasn't for Sony until the very end.
I'm of opinion they set the tone when that generation ended and when the current started.
While it's possible that they could add more memory to PS5 Pro not sure how that will play out with developers and consumers.

We can always slap on "premium" and all that and call it a day I guess?

Elandyll · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
Just my opinion, just like you have yours, we don't have to agree to anything or accept what some else says.
We all are bothered by certain things, this isn't no different, the point I tried to make was they didn't include a UHD, yet they sell 4K movies, CPU clock speed is important they didn't seem to think so (twice).

You're pushing a story that's revisionist at best, and consolewarriorist at worst.

Both the XB1 and PS4 were about to release with the same CPU at the exact same speed. Seeing hos badly they were outxone 8n both memory and GPU, MS had its engineers use the 1 thing they had over the PS4 which was an awfully big form factor and external power brick to add 10% to the CPU clockspeed of the XB1, which resulted in... Almost no gains, aside from a very few situational ones.

The Pro was very well designed to be a near 4K PS4 in late 2016, period.
Arguably, the only thing it was missing to be a 2016 XB1X was a UHD drive, bit not gonna have that discussion now, it's been done to death.

Now, the XB1X has the exact same CPU as the Pro, a year later, at $100 more.
Thank god it has a bit more clock on it (2.3Ghz vs 2.1ghz, again a 10% delta) thanks to a custom cooling (biggest plus for the GPU which itself received a monster of an overclock), otherwise it'd scream incompetence.

I honestly think you don't know what you're talking about tbh...

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Elandyll said:
You're pushing a story that's revisionist at best, and consolewarriorist at worst.

(biggest plus for the GPU which itself received a monster of an overclock), otherwise it'd scream incompetence.

I honestly think you don't know what you're talking about tbh...

To be a console warrior I'd first need to have a console, on top of that I'm rather old so don't come to me with that nonsense.
Monster of an overclock? RX480 is clocked at 1120Mhz (base) XBOX 1172Mhz, that is the reference you use not the PS4P because in that case the latter would have been downclocked to hell.
Looks like you are the one that doesn't know what they are talking about.

People can defend the decisions made and/or their purchase, won't hold it against them as it's their right.
I just don't share the same sentiment as some of you and would gladly see Sony push for more/better, even if it has to be in the Pro version since that's what it's supposed to be.

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
Perhaps because it was profitable for Microsoft, it wasn't for Sony until the very end.
I'm of opinion they set the tone when that generation ended and when the current started.
While it's possible that they could add more memory to PS5 Pro not sure how that will play out with developers and consumers.

We can always slap on "premium" and all that and call it a day I guess?

I kinda hope if they get the CPU right, we won't need a mid gen refresh for next gen, as a decent CPU shouldn't hold it back anywhere near as much as this gen.

If PS3 / 360 lasted 7-8 years on 512MB RAM, then 16GB RAM would be ok in a console for 6 years. Consoles have always managed on less powerful hardware than PC, so I don't see the reason why it suddenly needs to be on par or more powerful than a PC now.

Ivan · Jun 25, 2017

I'm so happy AMD made a nice progress with Ryzen. It would be terrible to have compromises with cpu again.

I think next generation will finally give developers a chance to make 60 fps games much easier.

And i think abandoning PS4 user base with another big reset would be a craziest thing ever to do.

BC has to be in, it makes absolutely no sense to go out without it in this situation.

Sony can choose to keep the lead or just throw it away. I hope they're not crazy.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Yautja_Warrior said:
I kinda hope if they get the CPU right, we won't need a mid gen refresh for next gen, as a decent CPU shouldn't hold it back anywhere near as much as this gen.

I hope so as well I really do, matters not if it's the base model since we have mid gen refreshes now, but at least go all out with a Pro version since price isn't the first priority it's what's in the box first, price second.

In regards to RAM it might be a different story due to 4k assets, I can't say with confidence.
16Gb would be 2x of what we have at the moment, maybe it's enough maybe it ain't, we might get a better idea in August to HMB3/LCHBM cost/specs.

AmyS · Jun 25, 2017

iceatcs said:
very likely if PS5 coming 2018.

2018 - Not happening.

2019 - possible, but by no means a certainty.

2020 - the most likely time for PS5 to arrive.

2021 - This would be 8 years after PS4, the same gap between Xbox 360 and Xbox One.

K.Jack · Jun 25, 2017

FZW said:
yup, can't wait for $600 hardware again.

IMO, $600 hardware isn't a bad thing, if the price is actually reflected in the power of the CPU and more importantly the GPU.

The PS3 was a shit $600 console, because the $600 went into the Blu-ray and the Cell processor, while the GPU was mediocre.

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
I hope so as well I really do, matters not if it's the base model since we have mid gen refreshes now, but at least go all out with a Pro version since price isn't the first priority it's what's in the box first, price second.

In regards to RAM it might be a different story due to 4k assets, I can't say with confidence.
16Gb would be 2x of what we have at the moment, maybe it's enough maybe it ain't, we might get a better idea in August to HMB3/LCHBM cost/specs.

Maybe they will go 24GB if they feel like 16GB isn't going to cut it, if component price is reasonable and they could stick with GDDR5 or GDDR5X, instead of HBM or GDDR6 to keep cost down too, depending on the CPU and if the GPU is Vega or Navi based.

gamz · Jun 25, 2017

K.Jack said:
IMO, $600 hardware isn't a bad thing, if the price is actually reflected in the power of the CPU and more importantly the GPU.

The PS3 was a shit $600 console, because the $600 went into the Blu-ray and the Cell processor, while the GPU was mediocre.

Go with two SKU's like this generation. Cheaper and more expense ver.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Yautja_Warrior said:
Maybe they will go 24GB if they feel like 16GB isn't going to cut it, if component price is reasonable and they could stick with GDDR5 or GDDR5X, instead of HBM or GDDR6 to keep cost down too, depending on the CPU and if the GPU is Vega or Navi based.

The other components seem to drop in price and the switch to 7nm saves money as well (which can go to CPU/GPU boost).
Only freakin' RAM keeps going up in price and has been for years, our lord and savior would be HBM3 <_<... maybe.

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
The other components seem to drop in price and the switch to 7nm saves money as well (which can go to CPU/GPU boost).
Only freakin' RAM keeps going up in price and has been for years, our lord and savior would be HBM3 <_<... maybe.

It would be great if HBM3 was cheap and was used in next gen but I'm not relying on that to happen, would be happy to be proved wrong on that one though.

Bitch Pudding · Jun 25, 2017

cooldawn said:
I'd take an expensive, cutting-edge, bespoke solution to actually, really, push the game on than these tweaked off-the-shelf parts.

Technologically this generation is weak. There was a clear shift of focus from both platform holders when designing this generation hardware. I, for the love of games, hope that Sony go balls-to-the-wall and give developers something remarkable.

Thing is, both MS and Sony stopped subsidizing (launch) console prizes with the current generation. And one of the most important lessons learned this gen was that $399 is the absolute sweet spot.

The next generation consoles of both Sony and MS will both strive to deliver the best technical solution they can get - for 399 bucks.

That said, if we asume that both PS4 Pro and XOX are produced at cost than we already can asume what a $399 2020s console might have under its bonnet. Of course they'll be much faster than even an XOX - something in between 13-18 TF w/ 16 GB RAM would be my guess - but we sure as hell won't get those 64-128 GB RAM monsters people are talking about.

But hey, maybe one of them is going for a two-SKU strategy (one entry-level, one high-end) right from the start next time?!

Kayant · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
Too many quotes of quotes of quotes, lost me there.

Okay I still don't get where the fps comes in because it's never mentioned but whatever.

2013 Matt commenting on benchmark showing XB1's CPU < PS4's in performance -

Matt said:
Yes, you can get more out of the PS4's CPU than you can the Xbox's.

2014 - Metro dev talking about one aspect of API differences

Digital Foundry: DirectX 11 vs GNMX vs GNM - what's your take on the strengths and weakness of the APIs available to developers with Xbox One and PlayStation 4? Closer to launch there were some complaints about XO driver performance and CPU overhead on GNMX.

Oles Shishkovstov: Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised). Then, the same scenario on PS4, it was actually difficult to find those draw-calls in the profile graphs, because they are using almost no time and are barely visible as a result.

2017 -

Three Fields Entertainment dev said:
CPU difference is marginal - the issue is memory and getting things to that CPU. If you're a developer and have experience of shipping games on both PS4 and Xbox One at the same time, you would maybe feel differently. Sorry we lost your sale, but we're simply not configured to deliver sim-ship developments anymore.

So again based on the above and all the games we have so far where GPU, ram etc are more important I don't see why you be disappointed by their choice or why you would think "makes you wonder if they know what they are doing." "yet they look completely incompetent when it matters." Which is a silly thing to say based on results.

kungfuian · Jun 25, 2017

gatti-man said:
I find it odd that you admit to keeping your pc cutting edge and yet don't want the same for your console because of being held back by a older console. You do realize this is exactly what happens in PC land with every single game since Crysis right? A game can easily be made with a lower and higher spec in mind.

The only reason I can think of for abondoning current gen hardware for one last cycle is the current CPU situation is incredibly weak by comparison to even a budget pc.

Also I want to address your claim of impact. I think this will be less and less a thing as consoles improve. How do you advertise 4k graphics to the mainstream market on a 720p tv channel or Facebook stream? You can't.

Simple answer is VR. I am new as a PC gamer (last year and a half) and have only upgraded my machine (and will continue to do so) for the best possible VR my money can buy. It's the same reason I upgraded to the Pro. I just want better VR. I think it's the second coming of gaming and am willing to invest for higher performance and resolution.

As far as my concerns with impact, I think all of my points stand (the same ones everyone else is making in this thread for a reason). Maybe refute those?

And regarding showing off the difference between 1080 vs 4k, yes from a marketing perspective that is challenging; but that's because resolution on its own is an incremental step (PS4 to Pro for example). But compare the PS3 games to PS4 and we have seen massive increases in graphic fidelity. For example Second Son looks incredible compared to even the highest end PS3 game (material shaders, lighting, destruction and physics etc. etc). It might be hard to imagine but I expect with true generational shifts we will see similar jumps again!!! I know it's easy to dismiss with all the talk of diminishing returns but proper PS5 exclusives are going to blow your mind!

Sadly we wont get this type of jump if new hardware is forever tied to old hardware in your iterative model.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Kayant said:
So again based on the above and all the games we have so far where GPU, ram etc are more important

2013 - Due to API, it boosted the CPU ok great, but we're talking about raw clock speed not external factors.

2014 - Going into api differences here again, once more not what i'm talking about, GNM/GNMX vs DX12 discussion.

2017 - Marginal, difference still there, issue is memory...says that other developers might feel differently.

Of course GPU/RAM plays an important part, so should CPU, it was a choice they made and I don't agree with it.
Both consoles are using the same parts 1 chose to push for CPU clock speed where else the other didn't (as much).
Not going to defend any company, I don't owe them jack.

Disappointed would look like this (if I was shitting on Sony, yet I don't care about any of them, beside maybe PCO):
PS1 BC
PS2 BC
PS3 BC*
Party chat overlay*
LFG (not communities)
No name change
No birthday change
No refunds

Yautja_Warrior · Jun 25, 2017

Bitch Pudding said:
Thing is, both MS and Sony stopped subsidizing (launch) console prizes with the current generation. And one of the most important lessons learned this gen was that $399 is the absolute sweet spot.

The next generation consoles of both Sony and MS will both strive to deliver the best technical solution they can get - for 399 bucks.

That said, if we asume that both PS4 Pro and XOX are produced at cost than we already can asume what a $399 2020s console might have under its bonnet. Of course they'll be much faster than even an XOX - something in between 13-18 TF w/ 16 GB RAM would be my guess - but we sure as hell won't get those 64-128 GB RAM monsters people are talking about.

Yeah 16GB sounds right for the price, no chance a crazy 64-128GB monster is happening, 32GB would be pushing it too. Not sure what some people are smoking lol.

The way I look at it, developers can make awesome looking games like Uncharted 4 on a PS4 with it's weak Jaguar CPU, old 1.84 Tflop GPU (4.2 TFlop on Pro) and 8GB RAM (Only 5GB for games) so imagine what they can do with a decent Zen CPU, 10-12 TFlop GPU (close to a GTX 1080 Ti) and 16GB RAM (12-13GB for games)

I think that will be a solid upgrade, the CPU alone will make a big difference and having a 1080 Ti level GPU, with how good they can optimize on console, would be amazing. They should be able to make great looking games, with decent framerates and do 4k easily.

dr_rus · Jun 25, 2017

gatti-man said:
A 40TF baseline.....that's 2-3 generations away id imagine.

I'm not so sure that consoles have 2-3 more generations ahead of them. Next generation will probably hit the transistor scaling limit at around 5nm, and it's anyone's guess on what will happen next.

Shin · Jun 25, 2017

Can always go crazy and come up with configuration and pricing...
PS3/PS4 BOM: http://www.cdrinfo.com/images/uploaded/PS4_BOM_2_IHS.gif
Format: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241131034&postcount=189

In one of Eurogamer's article Richard said something about 4Gb VRAM costing $30 according to AMD, not sure about the details of that but Sony/MS need a lot more so they should be getting better deals than that.
Not much might change beside the CPU, GPU, RAM, HDD, Drive, amount of OS memory (DDR3L -> DDR4L?), overall BOM shouldn't deviate too much from previous generations.

Performance, Power, Cost Advantage from 7nm Area Scaling
>40% performance improvement at iso power (vs. 14nm)
>60% power reduction at iso frequency (vs. 14nm)
Up to 30% lower die cost (vs. 14nm)

SK Hynix planning to mass produce GDDR6 for nVidia (Volta) by early 2018.

Handful of verified information to speculate, toy with as concrete information about PS5 is slim to none.

McLovin · Jun 25, 2017

As long as its the same architecture it doesn't matter. That burn everything to the ground and start over approach needs to end.

Kayant · Jun 25, 2017

Shin said:
2013 - Due to API, it boosted the CPU ok great, but we're talking about raw clock speed not external factors.

2014 - Going into api differences here again, once more not what i'm talking about, GNM/GNMX vs DX12 discussion.

2017 - Marginal, difference still there, issue is memory...says that other developers might feel differently.

Of course GPU/RAM plays an important part, so should CPU, it was a choice they made and I don't agree with it.
Both consoles are using the same parts 1 chose to push for CPU clock speed where else the other didn't (as much).
Not going to defend any company, I don't owe them jack.

Disappointed would look like this (if I was shitting on Sony, yet I don't care about any of them, beside maybe PCO):
PS1 BC
PS2 BC
PS3 BC*
Party chat overlay*
LFG (not communities)
No name change
No birthday change
No refunds

Sure but that's if you're looking at it without taking into account factors like the difference in cooling solution and chassis size that have a direct affect.

You don't need to "defend" a company to see Sony's decision to not push CPU clockspeeds as high as MS is nowhere near a sign of incompetence.

Inuhanyou · Jun 26, 2017

dr_rus said:
I'm not so sure that consoles have 2-3 more generations ahead of them. Next generation will probably hit the transistor scaling limit at around 5nm, and it's anyone's guess on what will happen next.

i guess that can also apply to conventional PC components too? I wonder what will happen

Inuhanyou · Jun 26, 2017

Lady Gaia said:
You'll never get a substantial installed base if there are literally no titles that require the new hardware. Something needs to jump start adoption for a generation, and it's exclusive titles.

Cross-gen is an interesting market adaptation. Usually it's riding the cost tails of the exclusive titles: the exclusives give you a reason to buy the hardware, and the cross-gen ports give you something else to play once you have it. The potential for these titles to be delivered as a single SKU is potentially very interesting, because even if you don't buy the new system you slowly accumulate titles that can take advantage of it down the road when you do jump in.

Reasons for not following this path are numerous: a clean start has historically given platforms a chance to reset the anti-piracy arms race. Novelty can mean the new control scheme doesn't physically support the prior generation's feature set. Architectural changes can make compatibility difficult or impossible. To assume that none of these factors will be an issue is a big assumption.

Fair enough in regards to exclusive launch titles, but crossgen dying would really ease the burden on developers having to work on two SKU's at a time, when now they could just go the pro route and update the PS4 game to take advantage of the PS5's specs without having to print and press brand new discs and such

HStallion · Jun 26, 2017

dr_rus said:
I'm not so sure that consoles have 2-3 more generations ahead of them. Next generation will probably hit the transistor scaling limit at around 5nm, and it's anyone's guess on what will happen next.

Maybe this comes a few generations earlier than predicted

ShadowkillXNA · Jun 26, 2017

jroc74 said:
Exactly. They used to be all about BC tho. Still, I hope to see digital games show up on Switch. Not trying t get a Wii U to play 3D World...then I remembered MGS 4 didnt get a remake or show up on PS4 so, I may be out of luck. Oh well.

Exactly.

There was an excuse from PS3 to PS4. I dont think it will fly with folks on this board.
Then again....you are right. Look how good the Switch is selling.

For exclusives alone I would do it. They'll just be exclusive machines

This forum isnt representative of the mass market at all. It amazes me that so many people still dont realize this.
Backwards compatibility simply isnt as important to the mass market as some like to think it is.

Inuhanyou · Jun 26, 2017

ShadowkillXNA said:
This forum isnt representative of the mass market at all. It amazes me that so many people still dont realize this.
Backwards compatibility simply isnt it important to the mass market as some like to think it is.

but it is important when deciding what ecosystem you want to invest in. For many 360 to PS4 owners, MS resetting things at the start gave people a lot of outs to switch

ThoseDeafMutes · Jun 26, 2017

K.Jack said:
This is a fucking insane thinking.

There comes a point of diminishing returns, as it is way fucking before you reach 128GB of RAM.

DonMigs85 said:
Lol a mechanical HDD would also take forever to load data into that much RAM
I'm predicting 16GB for PS5, absolute max maybe 24 or 32GB

128GB would be notably larger than the UHD Blu Rays that games would be loaded into. And GDDR / HBM isn't getting cheaper that quickly.

My prediction is 24GB for 2019, 32gb for 2020-2021. How accurate this ends up being depends on future hardware trends that I can't really predict with accuracy. Maybe they'll blow us away and do 64 at the last minute, or maybe it'll stretch out to 2022 or beyond. Who really knows?

Dash_Riprock · Jun 26, 2017

Good to hear them say it but no real surprise.

"No mores Gens!" concept was in trouble when the Pro had a lukewarm reception.

It was dead the moment MS announced that the XboneX was $499.

ShadowkillXNA · Jun 26, 2017

Inuhanyou said:
but it is important when deciding what ecosystem you want to invest in. For many 360 to PS4 owners, MS resetting things at the start gave people a lot of outs to switch

Its important to some when picking an ecosystem.
I picked a ps4 as my main console before the gen started and have continued to invest in the ps4 platform the entire generation without giving a single thought to ps5 backwards compatibility.

Lady Gaia · Jun 26, 2017

Dash_Riprock said:
"No mores Gens!" concept was in trouble when the Pro had a lukewarm reception.

The Pro was never positioned as anything but a premium PS4 for a limited audience. Any expectations to the contrary were fabricated out of thin air by forum members. It seems to be selling fine for what it is.

Curufinwe · Jun 26, 2017

Dash_Riprock said:
Good to hear them say it but no real surprise.

"No mores Gens!" concept was in trouble when the Pro had a lukewarm reception.

It was never a concept for Sony, and 20% sales being the Pro isn't lukewarm.

Shin · Jun 26, 2017

Kayant said:
Sure but that's if you're looking at it without taking into account factors like the difference in cooling solution and chassis size that have a direct affect.

PS4 uses 130w during gaming, 5w more than XB1 and stays 5C cooler than the later (44/49C).
Wouldn't have been a problem and that 5c margin is what expected and wrote in a previous post, it's a mobile CPU 100Mhz OC wasn't going to set it on fire.
Sony/MS prioritize different things, I'll leave it at that since we're going more and more off-topic.

dr_rus said:
I'm not so sure that consoles have 2-3 more generations ahead of them. Next generation will probably hit the transistor scaling limit at around 5nm, and it's anyone's guess on what will happen next.

In less than two years since developing a 7nm test node chip with 20 billion transistors, scientists have paved the way for 30 billion switches on a fingernail-sized chip.

Perhaps this will pave the way (assuming you're talking about this): https://www.wired.com/2017/06/ibm-silicon-nanosheets-transistors/

Oresama · Jun 26, 2017

ShadowkillXNA said:
This forum isnt representative of the mass market at all. It amazes me that so many people still dont realize this.
Backwards compatibility simply isnt as important to the mass market as some like to think it is.

True.

I expect Sony will offer PS4 titles via PSNow and if BC means that much to you they'll have you put your money where your mouth is.

If MS had a more compelling exclusive library of games, I'd jump ship for the free BC and games, but sadly they don't.

c0de · Jun 26, 2017

ShadowkillXNA said:
Its important to some when picking an ecosystem.
I picked a ps4 as my main console before the gen started and have continued to invest in the ps4 platform the entire generation without giving a single thought to ps5 backwards compatibility.

And because you don't care, other don't, too?

IKizzLE · Jun 26, 2017

So will ps5 continue the trend of 10x flops? Hasn't been broken yet.

c0de · Jun 26, 2017

Kayant said:
2013 Matt commenting on benchmark showing XB1's CPU < PS4's in performance -

After the SDK updates, Matt also said that things had changed regarding that comment.

gundamkyoukai · Jun 26, 2017

cakely said:
Also, despite some deeply incorrect posters, the PS5 is absolutely not coming out in 2018. I'm guessing 2020, myself, with the official announcement at E3 2020. We'll start seeing rumors of the specs in 2019.

It will not get announce at E3.
Don't forget Sony do there own show for hardware .
I expect they will do it like PS4 .

Apparition · Jun 26, 2017

Yautja_Warrior said:
I kinda hope if they get the CPU right, we won't need a mid gen refresh for next gen, as a decent CPU shouldn't hold it back anywhere near as much as this gen.

If PS3 / 360 lasted 7-8 years on 512MB RAM, then 16GB RAM would be ok in a console for 6 years. Consoles have always managed on less powerful hardware than PC, so I don't see the reason why it suddenly needs to be on par or more powerful than a PC now.

But, but... 8K!

Depending on how successful Tokyo 2020 will be in pushing the 8k into the mainstream, it will probably become more available and reasonably-priced several years after that. UHD console makers would want to jump on that bandwagon with faux-/true-8K solutions once the technology allows it at consumer prices.

ScaryShark · Jun 26, 2017

gundamkyoukai said:
It will not get announce at E3.
Don't forget Sony do there own show for hardware .
I expect they will do it like PS4 .

Push PSX in to January 2020, do it there.

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