Support NeoGAF

JCHandsom · Oct 21, 2017

I've been talking with a friend who recently beat Shadow of War, and he was not impressed. Among his complaints was the fact that the game bends over backwards to try and tie back into the books/films, including

having Talion become one of the Ring Wraiths in LotR, Celebrimbor merge with Sauron to become the Giant Evil Eye, and have all your efforts to stop Sauron add up to buying the good guys some extra time

. Aside from tonal/thematic issues I have with that, it completely wastes what I believe would have been an awesome opportunity to go crazy with the LotR universe. I mean, if you were going to try and justify Sexy Shelob, Crazy-Advanced Machinery and Weaponry, Zombie Ghost Magic, and a "Good" One Ring, just go all out and make it a complete bastardization and have fun with it.

Basically make The Lord of the Rings version of The Force Unleashed's DLC, where you kill Obi-Wan in his physical AND Force Ghost form, make Luke your evil apprentice, and your main character looks like this:

Here's a rough outline of what I'm talking about:

-Celebrimbor/Talion defeat Sauron and take his place as ruler of Mordor and set their sights on conquering the rest of Middle Earth as "The Bright Lord". Cue more Shadow of War gameplay, but instead of Orcs, Uruk-hai, and so forth you're fighting Gondorians, Rohan, Dunedain, Elves, Dwarves, Ents, Hobbits, etc.

-You take Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, fighting Boromir and/or Faramir, eventually turning Denethor to your will

-You turn your attention to Rohan. Imagine stronghold infiltration missions but have them be at Helms Deep with Theoden and Eowyn, and Orthanc where you can fight Saruman and the Ents.

-You inflitrate Lothlorien/Rivendell and assassinate/fight Elrond and Galadriel. Imagine a two-part boss where you take on the "scary" Galadriel form she takes in the Hobbit movies!

-Of course you have to have a boss fight against Gandalf. Imagine a "You Shall Not Pass!" moment in Moria, but instead of the Balrog, it's you! Maybe have a rematch with Gandalf the White at a later point?

-The finale would be a reversed-POV Scouring of the Shire, riding through town on your Graug snatching up Hobbits. There are a few options for who you could have be the final boss: Aragorn all kinged-up with Anduril, or Gandalf the White, but personally I would want Tom Bombadill to be your final opponent, rhymes and all, as a nice way to ruin absolutely every aspect of the soruce material.

-The final story cutscene would be a dark, despoiled, and unified Middle Earth gearing up with a fleet setting off from the Grey Havens set on conquering Valinor, our final shot a dark inversion of that one shot from Return of the King.

I've definitely put way too much thought into this, but it's better to drop all pretenses than to pretend like you're somehow being faithful. (*COUGHhttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=248407919#post248407919COUGH*)

Anyway, maybe they'll do it in a DLC.

staticneuron · Oct 21, 2017

JCHandsom said:
I've been talking with a friend who recently beat Shadow of War, and he was not impressed. Among his complaints was the fact that the game bends over backwards to try and tie back into the books/films, including

having Talion become one of the Ring Wraiths in LotR, Celebrimbor merge with Sauron to become the Giant Evil Eye, and have all your efforts to stop Sauron add up to buying the good guys some extra time

. Aside from tonal/thematic issues I have with that, it completely wastes what I believe would have been an awesome opportunity to go crazy with the LotR universe. I mean, if you were going to try and justify Sexy Shelob, Crazy-Advanced Machinery and Weaponry, Zombie Ghost Magic, and a "Good" One Ring, just go all out and make it a complete bastardization and have fun with it.

I think alot of stuff seemingly went over peoples heads.

1. You never see Shelob transform which strongly hints at the sexy version you see of her is a projection, just like the visions she shows you. Think about when you see her and when you "dont" see that form.

2. The weaponry wasn't that advanced. It is similar to what you see in the films.

3. Necromancers and the ability to bind wraiths are canon.

4. There is no "good" ring. That point is made very clearly in the story.

I personally think they did a fine job as alot of the stuff I saw in game drew from Tolkiens works and the fact that it seems as if Shelob was misunderstood and they didn't bother explaining it as it would ruin her quest line.

MUnited83 · Oct 21, 2017

staticneuron said:
I think alot of stuff seemingly went over peoples heads.

1. You never see Shelob transform which strongly hints at the sexy version you see of her is a projection, just like the visions she shows you. Think about when you see her and when you "dont" see that form.

2. The weaponry wasn't that advanced. It is similar to what you see in the films.

3. Necromancers and the ability to bind wraiths are canon.

4. There is no "good" ring. That point is made very clearly in the story.

I personally think they did a fine job as alot of the stuff I saw in game drew from Tolkiens works and the fact that it seems as if Shelob was misunderstood and they didn't bother explaining it as it would ruin her quest line.

1?
First Shelob cutscene in the game?

ginger ninja · Oct 21, 2017

Sold.

Slayven · Oct 21, 2017

I will forever say Shadows of War should have been set in a new fantasy world or even better scifi one.

They are kinda of limited by lore

staticneuron · Oct 21, 2017

BernardoOne said:
1?
First Shelob cutscene in the game?

And what else can Talion do that they showed Shelob and Eltariel to do? Does the game really have to spell it out for you?

The human like forms of Shelob and Sauron are guises, not their physical form. She basically states so about Sauron but omits herself. It is implied via the cutscenes that she is trapped in that form as well after Saurons betrayal

^Made it a spoiler tag just in case.

Vimes · Oct 21, 2017

I feel like the bigger missed opportunity was not dropping the Tolkein IP entirely.

Like, "Shadow of War" is the perfect name if you wanted to do that.

I haven't played the game, but everything I saw from the E3 streams suggested the dev team felt constrained by the Middle Earth setting.

Edit: beaten.

JCHandsom · Oct 21, 2017

staticneuron said:
I think alot of stuff seemingly went over peoples heads.

1. You never see Shelob transform which strongly hints at the sexy version you see of her is a projection, just like the visions she shows you. Think about when you see her and when you "dont" see that form.

2. The weaponry wasn't that advanced. It is similar to what you see in the films.

3. Necromancers and the ability to bind wraiths are canon.

4. There is no "good" ring. That point is made very clearly in the story.

I personally think they did a fine job as alot of the stuff I saw in game drew from Tolkiens works and the fact that it seems as if Shelob was misunderstood and they didn't bother explaining it as it would ruin her quest line.

1. There is never any indication in the books/films that Shelob has a Sexy Lady form, or that she has machinations concerning the Ring, or that she's anything other than a giant hungry spider who only plans as far as her next meal is concerned.

2. I must have missed this guy in the films. Was he in the Extended Edition?

3. Necromancers and wratih binding are certainly a thing, yes, but I doubt JoJo Stand-like abilities are a part of that.

4. I suppose I should clarify that I didn't think a ring to rival Sauron's could be made, since what made the One Ring so powerful was that he poured part of his essence, his being as a Maiar, into it.

Now, these can be explained away using little details: Ungoliant was Shelob's mom and she was obviously some crazy Eldritch god-creature so it's conceivable she passed some of that down, if they invented gunpowder in the films flamethrowers and the like aren't too much of a stretch, Magic is generally under-explained in LotR so there is some wiggle room for what is and isn't permissible, and whose to say that Celebrimbor didn't have enough wraith mojo to pour into his Ring of Power to rival Sauron's.

The problem is that this is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. While you may be able to stretch and justify some of this, it ultimately doesn't fit because Tolkien would never have included any of that into his universe. It's totally inconsistent with the kind of "Great things from the smallest of beings" story he sets out to tell in The Hobbit and LotR, so trying to connect it to the two and not have it branch off into its own thing is an issue IMO.

Also, yes, these were all present in Shadow of Mordor, a game I liked, but in that case there was a cliffhanger for a sequel that I hoped would take a crazier direction. Unfortunately, by the looks of Shadow of War, they didn't.

staticneuron · Oct 21, 2017

JCHandsom said:
1. There is never any indication in the books/films that Shelob has a Sexy Lady form, or that she has machinations concerning the Ring, or that's she anything other than a giant hungry spider who only plans as far as her next meal is concerned.

2. I must have missed this guy in the films. Was he in the Extended Edition?

3. Necromancers and wratih binding are certainly a thing, yes, but I doubt JoJo Stand-like abilities are a part of that.

4. I suppose I should clarify that I didn't think a ring to rival Sauron's could be made, since what made the One Ring so powerful was that he poured part of his essence, his being as a Maiar, into it.

Now, these can be explained away using little details: Ungoliant was Shelob's mom and she was obviously some crazy Eldritch god-creature so it's conceivable she passed some of that down, if they invented gunpowder in the films flamethrowers and the like aren't too much of a stretch, Magic is generally under-explained in LotR so there is some wiggle room for what is and isn't permissible, and whose to say that Celebrimbor didn't have enough wraith mojo to pour into his Ring of Power to rival Sauron's.

The problem is that this is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. While you may be able to stretch and justify some of this, it ultimately doesn't fit because Tolkien would never have included any of that into his universe. It's totally inconsistent with the kind of "Great things from the smallest of beings" story he sets out to tell in The Hobbit and LotR, so trying to connect it to the two and not have it branch off into its own thing is an issue IMO.

Also, yes, these were all present in Shadow of Mordor, a game I liked, but in that case there was a cliffhanger for a sequel that I hoped would take a crazier direction. Unfortunately, by the looks of Shadow of War, they didn't.

1.The events of Shadows of Mordor/War are not really addressed except for

the fall of Minas Ithil

Which the produces took a creative license and pointed to the books and movies as an example. Whether or not shelob could create another form was not addressed and Saurons ability to do so were canon. But the implication is that that spidor form and the armor form are physical. The guises are not. As described Ungoliant and Sauron original forms are not physical.

2. Is it so far fetched when they made Grond?

Obviously both the movies and games took liberties, but again, they are both drawing from works of fiction to start with.

3. Not sure what you are getting at. Are you complaining about the necromancer or the wraith powers. They are technically different.

4. Celebrimbor helped make the rings. It was the magic that helped bind the other rings and Sauron taught it to him while he made the one ring. It is complete creation that the bright lord comes to be but then again, there is nothing canon that would really say that it could never be done. The details for the the One ring and the Bright lord's ring are vague.

Imo it doesn't hurt Toliens story, it just reafirrms it. The hubris of all the powerful people lead to their fall.

The characters in the story became very powerful and thus corrupted and unable to take down sauron. They just slowed him down.

JCHandsom · Oct 21, 2017

staticneuron said:
1.The events of Shadows of Mordor/War are not really addressed except for

the fall of Minas Ithil

Which the produces took a creative license and pointed to the books and movies as an example. Whether or not shelob could create another form was not addressed and Saurons ability to do so were canon. But the implication is that that spidor form and the armor form are physical. The guises are not. As described Ungoliant and Sauron original forms are not physical.

2. Is it so far fetched when they made Grond?

Obviously both the movies and games took liberties, but again, they are both drawing from works of fiction to start with.

3. Not sure what you are getting at. Are you complaining about the necromancer or the wraith powers. They are technically different.

4. Celebrimbor helped make the rings. It was the magic that helped bind the other rings and Sauron taught it to him while he made the one ring. It is complete creation that the bright lord comes to be but then again, there is nothing canon that would really say that it could never be done. The details for the the One ring and the Bright lord's ring are vague.

Imo it doesn't hurt Toliens story, it just reafirrms it. The hubris of all the powerful people lead to their fall.

The characters in the story became very powerful and thus corrupted and unable to take down sauron. They just slowed him down.

1. It's never implicated that Shelob could create a guise. It's conceivable due to her relationship to Ungoliant, but it's pretty clear to me that she was just a giant spider in LotR.

2. I mean, that was just an ornate battering ram with a flame in the middle. There is a difference between that and having a portable device that shoots flames, or an arena floor that can create walls of fire as another example.

3. I was talking about the wraith powers when I said "Zombie Ghost Powers", my b.

4. There's nothing that says it couldn't be done, but saying that means it can be done is too far for me. Having another One Ring feels indulgent.

It is important to concede that the moral of the story is that power ultimately corrupts, like Tolkien's tales. My issue is that it lets the player have a fun romp with all that power, when power in LotR is something that needs to used under great restraint or refused outright. It's an issue of tone. Don't get me wrong, I like the crazy liberties they take with the source material, my issue is that they didn't go far enough.

Basileus777 · Oct 21, 2017

The ending being forced into canon compliance really did make it a whole lot less interesting. I dunno why they felt comfortable shitting all over Tolkien, but not enough to make their fanfiction an alternate continuity.

SargerusBR · Oct 21, 2017

Still want to understand why Isildur was a Nazgûl.

Talion at end going to Valinor was a nice touch.

Celebrimbor is an asshole. Also the thing about him and Sauron are on an eternal struggle all the way to ROTK is so dumb. And the retcon that the blue ring as Sauron dies is actually him escaping lmao.

However i like that he's still around, maybe the next game (?) could be set in the Fourth Era. According to the Legendarium, Aragorn's son fought a Cult of Morgorth while he was king. I would like to see something like that explored.

JCHandsom · Oct 21, 2017

SargerusBR said:
Still want to understand why Isildur was a Nazgûl.

Talion at end going to Valinor was a nice touch.

Celebrimbor is an asshole. Also the thing about him and Sauron are on an eternal struggle all the way to ROTK is so dumb. And the retcon that the blue ring as Sauron dies is actually him escaping lmao.

However i like that he's still around, maybe the next game (?) could be set in the Fourth Era. According to the Legendarium, Aragorn's son fought a Cult of Morgorth while he was king. I would like to see something like that explored.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the Isildur thing.

Going into the Fourth Age would actually be pretty cool, there's a lot of uncharted territory there.

Sou Da said:
Invoking the awfulness of TFU will win you no points with me. It should have just been a new IP.

Definitely, but it was an unbelievable, breathtaking kind of bad, at least when it came to the DLC

Sou Da · Oct 21, 2017

Invoking the awfulness of TFU will win you no points with me. It should have just been a new IP.

Gunslinger · Oct 21, 2017

Alternate reality where Sauron won, Frodo, Aragorn and the fellowship all lost. Gandalf is dead. Talion is the last hope for middle earth?

BreezyLimbo · Oct 21, 2017

Basileus777 said:
The ending being forced into canon compliance really did make it a whole lot less interesting. I dunno why they felt comfortable shitting all over Tolkien, but not enough to make their fanfiction an alternate continuity.

I imagine there are strict guidelines provided by the Tolkien estate that they have to keep it 'canon'. So they can add a story to an event, but by the end of that it has to match exactly with the lore.

SargerusBR · Oct 21, 2017

Gunslinger said:
Alternate reality where Sauron won, Frodo, Aragorn and the fellowship all lost. Gandalf is dead. Talion is the last hope for middle earth?

So basically the Evil campaign from Battle for Middle-Earth 2. Except without Talion of course

JCHandsom · Oct 21, 2017

SargerusBR said:
So basically the Evil campaign from Battle for Middle-Earth 2. Except without Talion of course

I couldn't remember the name of the game, but this is part of what I was hoping for

Sad Affleck · Oct 21, 2017

I agree. It would make the liberties they took with Tolkien lore much more tolerable.

Spyder_Monkey · Oct 21, 2017

I forget these are supposed to be based on Lord of the Rings. They're so different thematically.

ScherzoPrime · Oct 21, 2017

BreezyLimbo said:
I imagine there are strict guidelines provided by the Tolkien estate that they have to keep it 'canon'. So they can add a story to an event, but by the end of that it has to match exactly with the lore.

My understanding is they've authorized none of this and kind of hate how it's become commercialized.

5taquitos · Oct 21, 2017

Slayven said:
I will forever say Shadows of War should have been set in a new fantasy world or even better scifi one.

They are kinda of limited by lore

I agree, but you know that shit would never sell.

The LOTR name makes bank.

SargerusBR · Oct 21, 2017

I find hilarious that the games dropped the LOTR logo because it was supposed to distance itself from the movies (and possible legal issues with Tolkien state) yet this game directly references the movies all the way to the big ending.

staticneuron · Oct 21, 2017

JCHandsom said:
1. It's never implicated that Shelob could create a guise. It's conceivable due to her relationship to Ungoliant, but it's pretty clear to me that she was just a giant spider in LotR.

I think you still aren't understanding. Guises aren't physical forms. Guises are projections that hide real forms. Shelob is still a giant spider. She probably did that to be more convincing to Talion.

The events of the game take place at least 100 years before books.

All we glean from the books by then is that the orcs were scared of her and walled of the entrance to her lair and that Sauron knew she was there. The subject of her abilities or ability to create guises is not addressed or challenged in any way. Given the situations, she didn't "need" to create them and only people who could probably see her guise had to peer into the darkness as Gollum could.

I think they tried to place it within the universe while taking liberties. If they took to much then it would have become a world of its own. I think it was a conscious choice they made not to take it that far.

Spyder_Monkey said:
I forget these are supposed to be based on Lord of the Rings. They're so different thematically.

Imo not really. as stated before.

JCHandsom said:
It's totally inconsistent with the kind of "Great things from the smallest of beings" story he sets out to tell in The Hobbit and LotR, so trying to connect it to the two and not have it branch off into its own thing is an issue IMO.

And

staticneuron said:
Imo it doesn't hurt Toliens story, it just reafirrms it. The hubris of all the powerful people lead to their fall.

The characters in the story became very powerful and thus corrupted and unable to take down sauron. They just slowed him down.

In case people don't understand what is going on here this is a SPOILER for true ending

Celebrimbor betrays Talion to fight Sauron and fails in destroying him completely. Talion puts on ring of power and fights against Sauron for as long as possible (100years) before he turns into a nazgul.

So the events of game just basically bought time and laid groundwork for events that happen in hobbit and LotR.

SargerusBR said:
I find hilarious that the games dropped the LOTR logo because it was supposed to distance itself from the movies (and possible legal issues with Tolkien state) yet this game directly references the movies all the way to the big ending.

To me it maks no sense to put LoTR all over this. Technically this game and the hobbit all contain elements that lead up to LoTR. But each has it's own tale to tale that doesn't really need the other stories to be understood. You can play this game, read the hobbit and read LoTR individually and feel that you have been told a complete story. All together they join up to make an epic saga.

Tertullian · Oct 21, 2017

I like it OP. It's dumb as hell but I'd want to play it.

brawly · Oct 21, 2017

Slayven said:
I will forever say Shadows of War should have been set in a new fantasy world or even better scifi one.

They are kinda of limited by lore

Are they though?

And they make most of the money off the brand.

Support NeoGAF

Shadow of War should have led into/become a LotR "What If?" story (SPOILERS)

Member

Member

For you.

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

I love Pokken!

Member

Member

Member

Banned

I love Pokken!

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

I love Pokken!

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads