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Smart steering in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is pretty crazy
- Thread starter Busaiku
- Start date
Synless
Member
Not even close to the same thing. I was letting him learn how to steer, this handicap is hold A to win.
TheMoon
Member
Take off those blinders and realize the video in the OP was driving in 50cc against dumb CPU players who let you win anyway.
You'll get nowhere using this against actual players who know what they're doing. This is about actually getting to the finish line and not falling off the track all the time. That is it. Chill pills need to be handed out at the entrance.
pirateluigi
Member
When I was a kid we had game genie and cheat codes. Sometimes my uncle would give me an unplugged controller and make me think I was playing.
Today, I'm a huge video game enthusiast and pretty good at those games too.
One of the biggest barriers to entry to video games is the huge skill gap involved. It's frustrating for a new player when they keep falling off the edge. It's frustrating for other players waiting for them to finally finish. This option lets everyone have fun, which is the while point of games.
He would have learnt to steer anyway in the same 3 months. And you would not have had to watch him for minutes climbing hills or going backwards, before proceeding to the next course. Even you would have had fun, while playing with him completing cups. That's what he meant.
Its still a handicap as a regular game wouldn't let you do that without lapping and an eventual loss. This handicap lets people learn other things too without falling off.
Everyone jumped on you but you're 100% correct. The experience of overcoming obstacles is ultimately much more rewarding than seeing the end of a level as soon as possible. But beyond that, any tool that performs the movements for you has been demonstrated to impair motor skill learning- you have to perform the movements with your own body to learn and improve.
TheMoon
Member
Everyone jumps on him because he was so clearly not correct. You must not have read any of the responses, otherwise you'd have realized this is not an autopilot.
Vital Tundra
Member
What is up with people when Nintendo adds casual friendly options to their games? Like fuck no one cares how good you are or were when you were a child at video games, the caste majority aren't you and need assistants to enjoy certain genres.
Also fuck the sentiment that with it children can't learn properly. It's essentially saying training wheels on a bike aren't a good idea.
My daughter is going to love this feature, because without it she would be off the track 95% of the time. Thank you Nintendo.
Also fuck the sentiment that with it children can't learn properly. It's essentially saying training wheels on a bike aren't a good idea.
My daughter is going to love this feature, because without it she would be off the track 95% of the time. Thank you Nintendo.
TheMoon
Member
But your actual real life use for this does not matter because I like to git gud!
I'll make my GF try it a couple of times with this at first, so that she learns how to drift properly and use items.
She not a gamer at all but I try my best to find games we can enjoy together, last one being Snipperclips.
If she always ends up falling everywhere and finish in last place I know she'll probably lose interest immediately, so this is a great feature for her!
She not a gamer at all but I try my best to find games we can enjoy together, last one being Snipperclips.
If she always ends up falling everywhere and finish in last place I know she'll probably lose interest immediately, so this is a great feature for her!
That is perfectly fine that you do it that way. It is also perfectly fine for other parents to let kids use the assist. We all have different ways of teaching.
Gravy Boat
Member
Looks like the Mario Katy equivalent of those little rails that they put up for kids when they go bowling. Seems pretty cool.
Chronospherics
Member
I don't think he was incorrect though. At least not with this sentiment.
Could the game not give better feedback? Could it not encourage them to drive themselves? What's encouragement is there to turn yourself while this system is enabled? It's not explicitely clear. Why not include more options for people that want a bit of help, but also want to learn and experience more of the games mechanics?
That Microsoft game that someone posted a while back arguably does it better. At least it would be nice to have an option for this type of thing. Kind of like shooters often have three stages of aim assistance, snap on aiming (just press L2 to hit the target), bullet magnetisim (a little assistance but it's easy to see what you're doing wrong when you're not aiming at them), and none.
I talked about this on the other page.
It's also a little interesting to include the 'this player can't drive' antena at the back of the car. What does that do for the players confidence, and how does that affect their intepretation of reward if they win? This isn't clear.
Something to bare in mind is that these types of assistances are actually very common in racing games. It's considered a challenging genre and games like Forza include everything from real world implementations that just provide a little assistance (like traction control management) to full blown assists such as steering and braking assist. Yet once the player has selected them, they're pretty seemless and allow the player to enjoy the game without a reminder of the help they're receiving.
I'm not saying I dislike the implementation but I think options are good too, and giving people the option to reduce the assistance a little so that they can make mistakes (for instance, only assisting them back onto the track after they hit the wall or veer off rather than before) could be good for players that aren't currently that capable, but possess an eagerness to learn more of the games mechanics.
Gravy Boat
Member
It's a feature for people who have literally no desire to learn the games mechanics and just want to have fun when they play with the family at Christmas. Like 4 year olds and parents, people who aren't going to play the game more than once or twice a year.
Chronospherics
Member
I get that, and I don't resent the mechanic but I do think Nintendo could offer more for players.
There's people that sit between those polar opposites you describe, that arguably aren't well accomodated. People who are at a very low skill level, but want to understand the game, experience more of its mechanical depth, and potentially get better, yet may feel their ability (either due to experience, or potentially physical impairments) makes the unassisted options unenjoyable.
I don't dislike the implementation. Better with, than without, but people acting as if there's people who are seeking to be MLG MK players, and then there's people who only play casually at Christmas, miss a significant component of the picture. And as I said previously, it's something that other racing games have been tackling for a long time.
Gravy Boat
Member
So instead of 'Nice one for adding a feature to help out a certain subset of people' you're just complaining that they didn't do more to accommodate another subset of people? Seems like a weird stance to take on a feature that has no downsides.
I circle back to my bowing comparison. Do you also complain that bowling alleys do nothing to help intermediate players while offering rails to help people who just want to knock down some pins?
jwillenn
Member
This was sort of an idea I had years ago for a new F-Zero (Wii U) mechanic. It came to me during those discussions (I think) about Miyamoto or someone not knowing what could be done with F-Zero gameplay wise (not counting the obvious). In short, auto pilot ("smart steering") would allow players to look at the Gamepad to manage functions and resources in order to keep their vehicle's performance at optimal levels given the state of the course environment/race at any particular moment. Think of what Affordable Space Adventures does. And while in Auto Pilot mode, the player would have to accept a major reduction in speed.
Finale Fireworker
Member
It's quite clear from the video that this is an autopilot at the utmost basic and nonadvanfageous level. The AI goes extremely wide on turns, sometimes so close to outer walls that mere pixels seem to separate them from collision. They never break to drift, they never perform tricks, they only hit accelerators incidentally and don't seek them out, and obviously they never go for or utilize items.
Smart Steering and Auto Acceleration being enough to come in 1st place in a 50cc race only demonstrates the broad inefficacy of 50cc racers. That's what we should really be laughing at. There should be no complaints about this feature which, at best, emulates the skill level of a human baby or a golden retriever.
This feature is cool because MK8 is probably the ultimate play-at-thanksgiving-with-your-little-cousins-and-one-eyed-uncle-Rufus game. It will be a welcomed setting in my eyes.
TheMoon
Member
The general sentiment I agree with, yea.
Your question about better feedback is answered with your observation about the antenna:
The antenna is the feedback. Since it lights up whenever the steering aid activates, the player is shown when they should have started turning at the latest to avoid crashing into the wall or falling off the track. The player is driving the whole time already.
We're lumping two features into one here: the steering assist and the acceleration assist. The former course-corrects if the player is about to fall off the track or about to bump into a wall so they keep going. The latter accelerates the vehicle if the player for some reason is not doing so (I don't know if it also loosens up if they're going to fast?). You can turn both on and off independently from one another. What we see in the video is both options turned on without an actual human doing anything. That shows that the acceleration assist will make the kart drive straight ahead until it is about to hit a wall or fall at which point the steering assist activates, turning the vehicle into the proper direction.
Luigi places first because, for one, the random luck helps him out and the CPU in 50cc is ultra slow and you'll have to fight them to actually lose. In a realistic racing scenario, you're competing at least against another human player or the harder CPU racers in higher classes. To get anywhere meaningful in these scenarios, you'll need to have learned how to drift, take the occasional shortcut, and cleverly use the items you get. You can't just pull an (A)-and-pray and hope to get onto the podium. If you use the assists, the light will tell you that the way you decided to steer through a turn wasn't ideal and next lap you should probably try a different approach but you have the benefit of not falling off.
It's a feature for players who want to not be discouraged by constantly falling off the track while still participating in play sessions with more experienced players. Falling off can feel highly discouraging in these asymmetric skill scenarios while getting shelled by someone is something that still happens to all players. But if you're the one person who crashes into every wall or explores every pit, you're not getting much out of that.
This does not prevent you from gittin' gud or receiving feedback about your driving skills.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I think it's for kids who can feel like they're doing a better job than they are. Like, little kids who wouldn't grasp the mechanics.
Finale Fireworker
Member
Honestly, I think the biggest thing we are all overlooking is how incredibly beneficial these modes may be to players with physical disabilities who who can now enjoy Mario Kart.
These players often require modified control schemes or custom controllers to play. Consider how much more accommodating Mario Kart is now that it can conceivably be played with one hand. Some players might be able to suppress a button but not easily toggle rapidly between suppress and released (Uncharted 4 had a setting for this). Some players might have a limited range of motion in their thumb. You never know who features like this can benefit. That's why we should welcome them.
These players often require modified control schemes or custom controllers to play. Consider how much more accommodating Mario Kart is now that it can conceivably be played with one hand. Some players might be able to suppress a button but not easily toggle rapidly between suppress and released (Uncharted 4 had a setting for this). Some players might have a limited range of motion in their thumb. You never know who features like this can benefit. That's why we should welcome them.
PotionBleue
Member
The fact that it's contextualised in game with this glowing antenna is also pretty excellent
Since MK8D also introduces a flag on the back of the vehicle for team colors I wonder what happens in a team race/battle when you have Smart Steering enabled.
Excellent point.
Im not sure why people are making such a fuss about it. People have different needs, people learn differently etc, etc.
Options are good.
disappeared
Banned
Him getting too close to the edge of a turn and then just skirting around it is like looking at a cup that's too close to the edge of a table.
fabricated backlash
Member
no it's a perfect example. Why would anyone bemoan making a game easier and more enjoyable to people with lower skill. Something as inconsequential as gaming...
Why would you fault someone for sliding down the mountain on their snowboard sideways, because the slope is too steep for them. Sure they could get better eventually, but maybe that hobby just isn't for them. Do you actually berate them for trying things out and never reaching a top performance level?
It highlights the ridiculous notion that a game of all things would have a negative impact on peoples willingness to put in the effort to learn other skills.
This argument is nothing more than a prettier dress and makeup for the old 2006 casual filth don't deserve to share this hobby attitude.
Maybe you didn't want to make that point, but it sure comes across like that.
I see the same shit argument made in drawing or even driving. I learned to drive manually, but shit, newer generations won't need to learn it, because automatic makes it obsolete.
Do I tease them about it? Heck yeah, but that's part of the fun of getting older, half of the joke is on me.
I mean, ever heard of training wheels? Or those little things you put on the pencil to make you hold it right? Or the chopsticks that are connected at the end? Or water wings?
This kind of shit not only does not negate learning, it enables it, it facilitates it.
What this is telling me is that rubberbanding aside the enemy AI in this game is complete garbage. He won without a single drift and a single item-use. Heh.
If people want to use this, more power to them. I don't begrudge in inclusion of the "easy-auto" difficulty in Platinum Games either.
If people want to use this, more power to them. I don't begrudge in inclusion of the "easy-auto" difficulty in Platinum Games either.
The Souls community is one of the most toxic on the internet, so I don't really care how they would react.
Dark Souls is a work of incredible beauty, ruined by needless difficulty. It would be improved immeasurably by removing, or at least drastically reducing the challenge.
Using "failure states" was perhaps too broad of me. I'm actually a big fan of extremely broad, finely grained failure states.
MGS:V has perhaps some of the best failure states in gaming, and it's all the better for exactly how long it's sliding scale of failure is.
What I was specifically referring too was the hard stop. Why did Mario ever have lives? Why does any game with a save system have a Game Over?
Why would any designer, any storyteller, any artist want block people from a chance at appreciating their work? It is incredibly counterproductive for a medium to raise unnecessary barriers to entry.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Are you a baby boomer? Nothing like some dude getting a steering assist from parents and government then telling everyone they should git gud and it's okay to be bad at something.
This isn't a life lesson. This may encourage some groups who don't frequently game. That's a good thing. I've watched my 4 year old get frustrated and cry because she couldn't figure out why she was in 12th place and driving in the wrong direction. Having steering assist won't determine if she gets a PhD.
There was no real reason games were so masochistic in the past except nerds deciding it should be. No need to develop levels 99% of gamers never played.
And we should really evaluate the frustrated gamer. The dude who rage quits because he can't cope with failure. I was apart of that masochistic generation of NES gamers and i have slammed controllers, broke my gold Zelda 1 cartridge and all other stupid things because i wanted to git gud. And now we see that antisocial behavior up close, online.
Just because we smash our heads against the wall until we bleed and actually git gud didn't mean it's a good process. If it was, you wouldn't have so many malcontents being douchebags online. Flipping their shit because blacks and dragons don't suit their tastes or they can't relate to a female character.
As a matter of fact, we should reevaluate everything about gaming based on the type of derelicts that call themselves gamers.
SomedayTheFire
Member
You could always do that in 50cc though?
Chronospherics
Member
The bowling alley comparison isn't really very good, is it? Because while it protects them from absolute failure, it doesn't keep them on track, either, just kind of throws them in an awkward direction, or in some cases, they just skirt the side.
There's very obvious feedback, in that case, as to why hitting the side is still worse. The ball loses momentum, the influence that the player gave it when throwing, becomes reduced.
I think it's unfair to say I'm complaining. I use neogaf to discuss features and design of video games, with other uses - this is just that. I think there are ways in which this could be implemented better but I don't resent it's implementation.
-Amon-
Member
You have a vali point BUT:
My son is 5 years old and started playing Mario kart 7 on 3ds one year ago. Of course I've never let him play that much but as today he wins races and championships in 100cc class with relative ease.
I'm convinced that with autosteering he would have not learned to drive without it.
Perseverance when presented with a challenge is a virtue.
Synless
Member
I didn't say it took 3 months for him to learn to steer. Within 3 months he had already learned all the mechanics and within half a year he kicks human opponents asses and he is 4. I am not saying he is a pro player or that good when compared to the whole, but he certainly will be better than kids who will use this mechanic at his same age.
The Horror the horror
Banned
In addition, maybe some of us can compile a list of the MK8 tracks, from easiest to the most challenging (even with smart assist on), as part of a MK training guide to help settle in new players?
Advanced
Intermediate-Advanced
Intermediate
Beginner-Intermeditate
Beginner
That's all I can remember from memory.
Please feel free to change/add anything.
Advanced
- Toads Turnpike (N64)
- Rainbow Road (N64)
- Rainbow Road (Wii U)
- Dolphin Shoals
- Wario Stadium
- Ice Ice Outpost
- DK Jungle
Intermediate-Advanced
- Thwomp Ruins
- Dry Dry Desert (GCN)
- Wario's Gold Mine
- Shy Guy Falls
- Twisted Mansion
- Bowser's Castle
- Mount Wario
Intermediate
- Sunshine Airport
- Yoshi's Valley
- Music Park
- Cheep Cheep Beach
- Cloudtop Cruise
- Electrodrome
Beginner-Intermeditate
- Royal Raceway
- Mario Circuit (Shell)
- Mario Circuit (Flower)
Beginner
- Excitebike Arena
- Mario Kart Stadium
- Yoshi Circuit
That's all I can remember from memory.
Please feel free to change/add anything.
Is it possible to get better at bowling if there's bumpers on the lanes? Wtf is this argument even?
This furthers my theory that people grandstand on the internet about "X game is too easy" because they don't get enough attention and praise in their personal lives.
God damn participation trophies. Back in my day we fell off Rainbow Road 20 times per race uphill both ways in the snow.
This furthers my theory that people grandstand on the internet about "X game is too easy" because they don't get enough attention and praise in their personal lives.
God damn participation trophies. Back in my day we fell off Rainbow Road 20 times per race uphill both ways in the snow.
The incentive to get better is what makes video games enjoyable in the first place. I sucked at Mario Kart 64 as a kid but I wanted to get better.
Chronospherics
Member
In this post you replaced your previous example with something that made more sense. Before, the example you used was an activity performed solely, for function. You used the example of humans using tools to 'open nuts', these are traditionally tedious tasks that are performed as a function of survival, not to acquire entertainment.
Pursuits saught for entertainment are different, because efficiency isn't the purpose, and therefore the means only need to entertain.
I don't disagree with your sentiment here. I would never mock or berate anyone for using accessibility options. I just disagreed with the example that you chose to use before.
This is shit that YOU are saying, and then suggesting I have inferred. I didn't say this or anything like it.
I get what you're saying but I wonder how clear that feedback really is, and how it will be interpreted by players. The signal doesn't really have any consequence, so it's not clear that it conveys any informational value, unless at least the system is explicitely explained to players. I imagine for novices the antenna will just seem like another neat effect in the game.
Dude, Yoshi Circuit as a "Beginner" course? That course is murder with the piles of incredibly sharp turns, weird S turn, and Piranha Plants.
Baby Park is the perfect start. It's one of the DLC tracks.
uhm, the bowling alley comparison is actually perfect.
The steering assist doesn't make you win, just like the bumpeers don't make you knock down all pins. Sure, you might land a strike, you might win a race. But what made Luigi win in that youtube clip was luck. - let's not pretend that Mario Kart isn't largely based around luck - when you're in the lead it's all about the rate of blue shells others get, when you're in the pack it's all about whether you happen to get stun locked by red shells from 3 different players.
This mainly likely eliminates the "zero"-frames from your kid's game of bowling, which are the times when they simply can't stay on track on rainbow road and end up having the race finished last, before they even reach the finish line.
cmd+F "fun" ... 0 results. But hey, at least he's better than others. You're raising a real winner. Winning is what counts!