Human Trashcan
Banned
You want me to explain to you what's already in the article? Sorry I didn't read every single comment I guess. I didn't know you'd addressed those points.
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Polygon: Valve is not your friend, and Steam is not healthy for gaming
- Thread starter Guess Who
- Start date
You want me to explain to you what's already in the article? Sorry I didn't read every single comment I guess. I didn't know you'd addressed those points.
TheVoidDragon
Member
While there may be some valid complaints, this article as a whole comes across to me as misleading and looking for any excuse to hate on Valve....to the point it seemingly hasn't even researched what it says.
This quote is something i have a big problem with:
They claim that Valve was breaking the law by not providing refunds. They claim that Valve were being dishonest and malicious towards users by trying to limit it with the EULA to get around the law. If they had done any research instead of quoting steam users and a law they haven't read they would know that is Valve complying with EU law.
The "EU Law says you have to refund me!" thing is not not true in this context. The part of the law people specifically mention is the "Right to cancel" which states that you can cancel or withdraw from a purchase within 14 days of receiving it, except that only applies until you actually get the item and use it. You can't buy a game, open it, use it and then decide to return it if it was a physical item, but the exact wording is different for digital goods. Here is a part about digital goods:
Notice the part that says "unless he has consented to the beginning of the performance of the contract during the withdrawal period"? Being provided with a digital key for the item and having it activated is what counts as it being used, which as Steam gives you it right away on your account, means you were unable it the moment you make your purchases. The law also states you have to tell users they won't be able to withdraw because they're agreeing to getting the service/item before the end of that withdrawal period...which is what Valve informed users of with their EULA and store changes. If Valve didn't do that and you didn't agree, you'd have to wait 14 days to get your game.
Incase anyone wants someone else to explain it as well:
Can't find the exact link to the site but one of the EU law pages says (or at least did when i got the quote a few years back) this:
Then there's:
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
So no, under EU law you are not entitled to a "refund". You have a period of withdrawing from the contract, which ends once that item has been used.
Basically, Valve complies with the law, Polygon claims that it's "Illegal" to do explicitly what the law says and attempts to make Valve appear bad because of that
Then there's how he says Valve taking 30% is bad when the title of the link he refers to as evidence of that also says GoG does it
This quote is something i have a big problem with:
They claim that Valve was breaking the law by not providing refunds. They claim that Valve were being dishonest and malicious towards users by trying to limit it with the EULA to get around the law. If they had done any research instead of quoting steam users and a law they haven't read they would know that is Valve complying with EU law.
The "EU Law says you have to refund me!" thing is not not true in this context. The part of the law people specifically mention is the "Right to cancel" which states that you can cancel or withdraw from a purchase within 14 days of receiving it, except that only applies until you actually get the item and use it. You can't buy a game, open it, use it and then decide to return it if it was a physical item, but the exact wording is different for digital goods. Here is a part about digital goods:
Notice the part that says "unless he has consented to the beginning of the performance of the contract during the withdrawal period"? Being provided with a digital key for the item and having it activated is what counts as it being used, which as Steam gives you it right away on your account, means you were unable it the moment you make your purchases. The law also states you have to tell users they won't be able to withdraw because they're agreeing to getting the service/item before the end of that withdrawal period...which is what Valve informed users of with their EULA and store changes. If Valve didn't do that and you didn't agree, you'd have to wait 14 days to get your game.
Incase anyone wants someone else to explain it as well:
Can't find the exact link to the site but one of the EU law pages says (or at least did when i got the quote a few years back) this:
Then there's:
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm
So no, under EU law you are not entitled to a "refund". You have a period of withdrawing from the contract, which ends once that item has been used.
Basically, Valve complies with the law, Polygon claims that it's "Illegal" to do explicitly what the law says and attempts to make Valve appear bad because of that
Then there's how he says Valve taking 30% is bad when the title of the link he refers to as evidence of that also says GoG does it
Minecraft and even Roblox too.
Weren't those all Arthur Gies?
Cause I remembered this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO688ZIfLHE
Really, he's terrible and should honestly be dropped. There are some good one's there, but some bad seeds like Gies really hold them back.
MrCunningham
Member
I guess you make a good point that some of the major publishers on PC are using their own clients and downloadable services. Yeah, EA has Origin, Ubi has Uplay. Microsoft has their own walled garden with UWP and their Windows Store, they do sell their PC versions of their Xbox One games on it. Bethesda has been experimenting with their own client, and so has Epic. LOL is Independent from Steam, and is still the largest online multiplayer game. GOG is also moving forward with their own Galaxy Client. Humble Bundle even has optional EXE installers for some of the games that they sell on their store.
You're right that Valve doesn't quite have the monolithic like monopoly that they had in the past. But at the same time, their Steam platform is still a mandatory install for those who want to game on their PC. Especially for those who already have a purchased library that is tethered to that platform.
I think Valve's ultimate goal with Steam is to break away from reliance on Microsoft's Windows and try to push multiplatform on PC with Mac and Linux... though I think they are still focusing on Linux the most to push their own SteamOS.
That's exactly what's wrong with the article. It contains legitimate and alarming complaints, but it's floating in a sea of poorly thought angry "yelling at windmills" rants, which makes discussion diffuse and unfocused.
spootime
Member
Looks a lot like amazon buying out curse client is a step towards competing directly with steam.
zenspider
Member
Right? What's with all these game writers telling me who isn't my friend? You're not my mom!
rakkadakka
Member
Twitch already has a game client.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
While the article is clickbait and kinda stating the obvious, I can agree with it.
I legitimately hate the praise and memes Valve gets because they're so "nice" and "cool". Fucking hate the sales meme videos, it's extremely stupid. Steam is a garbage platform, but so is every other client. Origin was really good until they updated it and now the UI is very, very slow. Steam barely works half of the time and can't load pages unless I restart it.
I just wish Valve would make a new single player game.
I legitimately hate the praise and memes Valve gets because they're so "nice" and "cool". Fucking hate the sales meme videos, it's extremely stupid. Steam is a garbage platform, but so is every other client. Origin was really good until they updated it and now the UI is very, very slow. Steam barely works half of the time and can't load pages unless I restart it.
I just wish Valve would make a new single player game.
TheRedSnifit
Member
When other companies provide a superior service, I'll switch to them.
Until then, the inexplicable hate-boner some people have for Valve is frankly kind of amusing.
Until then, the inexplicable hate-boner some people have for Valve is frankly kind of amusing.
Another BS article from Polygon...
Steam was and still is miles ahead any other competitor. How does it not work half the time? I, personally, don't have any issues whatsoever.
Steam was and still is miles ahead any other competitor. How does it not work half the time? I, personally, don't have any issues whatsoever.
I find usually if you look a the posters profile they will have an xbox or PS account username listed but no Steam username listed, I prefer to have my information from impartial people who use all the platforms like myself.
So tl;dr
- you are all brainwashed
- Valve is a business with malicious intent from the outset forcing people to use Steam to play HL2
- did you know they take 30% of all game sales?
- Valve not a nice guy like the internet claims
- Valve workshop creators now make less money than they used to
- they make too much money and hide how much they make!
- disgruntled employees have made claims about unfair treatment and prejudice
- refund policy came too late and is garbage
- they have a bad attitude with regards to regional consumer policies
- they make too much money and hide how much they make!
- wake up people
I will go back to the bastions of gaming, Sony/Nintendo/MS where all of these things are handled better.
- you are all brainwashed
- Valve is a business with malicious intent from the outset forcing people to use Steam to play HL2
- did you know they take 30% of all game sales?
- Valve not a nice guy like the internet claims
- Valve workshop creators now make less money than they used to
- they make too much money and hide how much they make!
- disgruntled employees have made claims about unfair treatment and prejudice
- refund policy came too late and is garbage
- they have a bad attitude with regards to regional consumer policies
- they make too much money and hide how much they make!
- wake up people
I will go back to the bastions of gaming, Sony/Nintendo/MS where all of these things are handled better.
Council Pop
Member
Worst argument ever. "If they're treating you badly, don't work for them!"
And it's like saying Uber drivers or Deliveroo workers don't really work for those companies.
NoKisum
Member
Drop this line in a console war thread, you'd probably get banned for inciting a riot on the servers.
McStickenstein
Member
GAF, I'm your friend! Now buy me games 
Of course Valve ain't your friend. I have games on all major clients and launchers; it's a pain but manageable.
Of course Valve ain't your friend. I have games on all major clients and launchers; it's a pain but manageable.
Musky_Cheese
Banned
I never assumed we were friends. But I am a happy customer.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
The Steam workshop is incredibly shady and I'm surprised it's legal. What needs to happen is some sort of strike.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Strangely Polygon failed to provide one so I've done their chart work for them.
Sorry - as ever
I admit, I chuckled.
He's an editor so is effectively charting the editorial slant of the publication. A lot of the twitter comments by Gies where him defending one of his reviewers super positive review of a game that shipped non functional due to online requirements, and his weird hill stand for online requirements by publishers as good for consumers.
I mean it's sort of making the valid point that maybe the daily mail/brietbart would be cool without Dacre/Bannon as editor. But they're editors because the publications owners want those voices to have editorial control.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
Now in a serious sense, I don't really know what to say to Polygon's article. Like I don't understand exactly why they're taking issue with Valve on a whole. They're not our friends obviously and they've done some missteps but I think overall they've been very good for the industry and PC gaming.
I guess I'll just post this dumb quick edit I did for the last Halloween sale again.
I guess I'll just post this dumb quick edit I did for the last Halloween sale again.
LouisaFerre
Member
I don't really like the tone of the article at points, where it feels like it delves into too much dramatic fluff, but the points it makes are valid and substantial.
Just because a company offers a product or service you enjoy using, or facilitates some convenience for you, does not mean they are doing you or anyone else a favor. Steam is DRM with license agreements that inconvenience customers and limit their control over products they pay for for the sake of Valve's financial gain. Now, there are plenty of companies that do this in a more intrusive way, and a lot of these issues are normal for digital marketplaces, but that doesn't somehow make them immune from criticism. No one NEEDS to do this shit.
Honestly, the more damning thing to me is the shit with the workshop. Valve enjoys making money off of the contributions of other people, and I don't see how people can say that slashing the royalties of content creators is anything other than Valve just trying to get more and more of the pie, even when they don't need to, and even when said creators contribute more of the labor. Once again, just because something like that might be normal doesn't make it necessary. There is no NEED to do this, they obviously prioritize their financial benefit over that of content creators to whatever extent they can get away with. As a consumer, as a developer, as a content creator, your resources, whether they be money, time, or labor, are not things that Valve pursues with respect to what would be fair or in your best interest. They will attempt to capitalize on those as much as they can, and they are not watching out for you to make sure that you get a big enough share when it comes to the revenue you generate, or your control over the copy of the game you brought.
It's not just Valve at all, but it feels like a lot of people hold corporations to a lower standard than the general public, where they react more defensively to criticism of business practices that benefit the company at others' expense, than they do to said practices. Frankly, that's some straight up bullshit.
I really hope I don't see any of the drive-by posters here talk about "paying artists their fair share" in other threads.
Just because a company offers a product or service you enjoy using, or facilitates some convenience for you, does not mean they are doing you or anyone else a favor. Steam is DRM with license agreements that inconvenience customers and limit their control over products they pay for for the sake of Valve's financial gain. Now, there are plenty of companies that do this in a more intrusive way, and a lot of these issues are normal for digital marketplaces, but that doesn't somehow make them immune from criticism. No one NEEDS to do this shit.
Honestly, the more damning thing to me is the shit with the workshop. Valve enjoys making money off of the contributions of other people, and I don't see how people can say that slashing the royalties of content creators is anything other than Valve just trying to get more and more of the pie, even when they don't need to, and even when said creators contribute more of the labor. Once again, just because something like that might be normal doesn't make it necessary. There is no NEED to do this, they obviously prioritize their financial benefit over that of content creators to whatever extent they can get away with. As a consumer, as a developer, as a content creator, your resources, whether they be money, time, or labor, are not things that Valve pursues with respect to what would be fair or in your best interest. They will attempt to capitalize on those as much as they can, and they are not watching out for you to make sure that you get a big enough share when it comes to the revenue you generate, or your control over the copy of the game you brought.
It's not just Valve at all, but it feels like a lot of people hold corporations to a lower standard than the general public, where they react more defensively to criticism of business practices that benefit the company at others' expense, than they do to said practices. Frankly, that's some straight up bullshit.
I really hope I don't see any of the drive-by posters here talk about "paying artists their fair share" in other threads.
Justin Bailey
------ ------
I think that we can probably at least retire the "gaben" meme at this point.
TheVoidDragon
Member
Can you explain what you mean by this? Steam is obviously DRM (for a reason) but i don't see how it has license agreements that inconvenience customers, or limits their control of products beyond that DRM.
Bubba_Sparks
Member
Seems pretty great to me! I've never had an easier time accessing a larger library of games for a reasonable price.
Forsaken82
Member
I guess i am not considered the average PC Gamer then... even though I have been PC gaming longer than most of the ages here on GAF. I love everything Valve has been doing. They've streamlined digital software sales in a consumer friendly way.
Typical Polygon. Everything the McElroy's touch goes to shit eventually. Thanks for ruining Joystiq, Justin.
Typical Polygon. Everything the McElroy's touch goes to shit eventually. Thanks for ruining Joystiq, Justin.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
They'll push the community as much as they're able. Content creators need to stop making content now, and probably ask their current content to get removed (is this even possible?)
Even though Polygon publishes a lot of shit, this generalized hate for them is - quite frankly - ridiculous. Generalizations are seldom adequate and even more pathetic in this case as the writer is not even a Polygon staffer.
Even if the articles is a bit exaggerated, it still raises some very valid points. Especially in regards to Valve using community's free work for something they should be doing itself and the meme culture created around the company. I guarentee you that EA wouldn't get away with half of the stuff Valve does (bad conditions for workshop modders, crowdsourcing a curation system, gifting restrictions, etc.).}}
Edit: Btw, I do like Steam and buy most of my digital games there. It is a great service and what got me into PC gaming. This does not mean, however, that Valve should get away with doing so much shit. They should get criticized just as much as EA or Ubisoft.
Even if the articles is a bit exaggerated, it still raises some very valid points. Especially in regards to Valve using community's free work for something they should be doing itself and the meme culture created around the company. I guarentee you that EA wouldn't get away with half of the stuff Valve does (bad conditions for workshop modders, crowdsourcing a curation system, gifting restrictions, etc.).}}
Edit: Btw, I do like Steam and buy most of my digital games there. It is a great service and what got me into PC gaming. This does not mean, however, that Valve should get away with doing so much shit. They should get criticized just as much as EA or Ubisoft.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
To be honest, I never understood why people need to drop "corporations are not your friend" line.
I mean duh? Fanboys will stick to their guns so the message is lost to them. Informed people already know this so the message is lost to them. What is it trying to accomplish?
I mean duh? Fanboys will stick to their guns so the message is lost to them. Informed people already know this so the message is lost to them. What is it trying to accomplish?
greatnorthern
Member
Valve/Steam is essentially the Amazon of PC gaming. Would people really go red in the face defending Amazon against some well-founded criticism? I somehow doubt it.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Not a bad article. Of course, the message is correct and while it should be obvious, people get a little too attached to companies a tad too often still.
LouisaFerre
Member
Having customers waive their right to a refund and class-action are pretty bad imo, and if the EULA is updated and you don't want to accept, there's not really anything to do other than close your account, and any account closure just results in you losing your licences without any sort of refund.
Good article.
Steam is a good place to buy games, if you want to buy and download PC games online. That's a choice you can make as a customer.
It's bullshit when you buy a retail PC single player game and you're forced to use Steam as an online DRM.
For some reason a lot of people are vocal against Securom, Denuvo and so on, and in the sam breath happily defend Steam DRM. So hypocritical.
Steam is a good place to buy games, if you want to buy and download PC games online. That's a choice you can make as a customer.
It's bullshit when you buy a retail PC single player game and you're forced to use Steam as an online DRM.
For some reason a lot of people are vocal against Securom, Denuvo and so on, and in the sam breath happily defend Steam DRM. So hypocritical.
Steam unlike other companies don't even have to answer to stock holders. Its Newell's private kingdom.
Some here worship him like second coming of christ, and its kinda funny to see people have double standard.
"We shouldn't accept monopoly in console space."
"Man I don't buy game unless it is on steam"
Seriously?
"Bros Denuvo is bad because it is DRM"
"Steam is DRM and its fine."
THE FUCK.
Because some fanboys don't realize it unless the truth is pointed out?
Some here worship him like second coming of christ, and its kinda funny to see people have double standard.
"We shouldn't accept monopoly in console space."
"Man I don't buy game unless it is on steam"
Seriously?
"Bros Denuvo is bad because it is DRM"
"Steam is DRM and its fine."
THE FUCK.
Because some fanboys don't realize it unless the truth is pointed out?
This is not always true, there are some games on Steam that you can play without running Steam.
Gamers are by and large primed to dislike stockholders, or publicly owned large game companies. I cannot actually recall when being answerable to shareholders has improved a company's direction or been a boon to gaming culture.
nephilimdj
Member
Issue is that Steam isnt the amazon of gaming, amazon is a open market place.
Valve has such a weird community focus, its amazing they are so adored.
Not saying stockholders are the best thing ever. But if Newell go insane and decided to fuck you all, there is nothing you can do. Because it is private company and only answers to gabe himself. People are so afraid of tyrant due to human's fallible nature, and yet they do so love gabe newell like he is some like god whom will never die/make some crazy decision. Sometimes it is just hilarious to see people like that.
99% true though?
Jeff Freecss
Member
I think the OP's quote missed the point of the article. The article is about the Valve's treatment to game creators. The quote doesn't reflect the content of the article, AT ALL. Instead, it only enforced the "Polygon BAD" narrative on Neogaf without nothing new to add. I'll even go so far as calling it a shit post.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Then it loses its customers.
Just like how if it was a public company it would also lose its stockholders. And customers.
Stockholders don't immediately protect people from crazy decisions. If anything most time they facilitate it?
It's barebones as fuck. If all you want to do is buy a game, its fine I guess. But literally e very digital store is fine for that.
Its certainly not better for discovery or whatever vs Steam and offers less deals even in Steam currently lower deal offering capacity.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Trying to say PC gamers never said said anything about monopolies vs quality of life x buying options / principles, and act like they're cutting a swathe to the truth, leading a charge and enlightening the unwashed is off-putting.