• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Patreon updates Terms of Service to clamp down on adult content

Luminaire

Member
Hm, my favorite artist Paul Kwon occasionally does nude versions of his art (maybe 1 out of 10?), but he works for Riot so I don’t think he’ll be hurting for money if he can’t post them there. Curious if they’ve defined a clear difference between nudity and pornography.

Wonder how Sakimichan will get affected since I think most of her art has nude alts.
 

Opto

Banned
Sounds like they'll need to qualify a lot on what they want. Like what constitutes raising funds to produce content vs a tier unlocking the ability to fund production of content. Does it mean content must be provided through patreon and not via off-site locations?

I do feel bad for non-fucked up porn creators that are embraced and then abandoned by the tech start ups. Vine treated porn makers similarly
 
This seems like pretty terrible news for creators who depend on the platform for their livelihood. As if adult content creators don't have enough trouble with all of their work being pirated, now their most viable legitimate platform is being kneecapped.

Wonder how Sakimichan will get affected since I think most of her art has nude alts.

Sakimichan, of all people, will come out of this just fine though.
 

Wulfric

Member
This sounds catastrophic for 90% of the furry artists on there. A lot of them use Patreon as a source of real income.

If they start clamping down on creators, I can see grassroots websites spring up for the anime/furry crowd.

Actually, I don't believe this pertains to drawings/pinups? The guidelines are pretty vague to be honest.

Lastly, you cannot sell pornographic material or arrange sexual service(s) as a reward for your patrons. You can't use Patreon to raise funds in order to produce pornographic material such as maintaining a website, funding the production of movies, or providing a private webcam session.

A lot of the art is inherently pornographic, but in this context I believe they are talking about real people? This needs clarification, imo.
 
This sounds catastrophic for 90% of the furry artists on there. A lot of them use Patreon as a source of real income.

If they start clamping down on creators, I can see grassroots websites spring up for the anime/furry crowd.

Biggest problem is payment.
 
I'm sorry, but the whole "I don't want my art associated with wolf dicks" spiel just made me think of this classic...

2exmvdC.png
 

Wulfric

Member
Biggest problem is payment.

Yeah, the options are almost nil outside of Paypal, Square, and Veemo.

Paypal used to give artists the hardest time (they still do sometimes) for 18+ commissions.

Patreon has been a net positive for the creators I follow. If they got booted off, they simply wouldn't be able to create art full-time.
 

StayDead

Member
Surely someone is just going to make a new Patreon service that does support adult content. All they're doing is killing their own userbase.
 

lenovox1

Member
Surely someone is just going to make a new Patreon service that does support adult content. All they're doing is killing their own userbase.

😆😆😆😆😆

It's not that easy. Banks and payment processors HATE porn. It may be the chief reason Patreon had to pull out.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3029634/the-difficulties-of-running-a-sex-inspired

But, yes, someone will likely create something, but "adult" content tend to be awful.
 

Not

Banned

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
Jesus... Patreon is bad at explaining this shit. You can't sell access to pornographic material (IE - photographs and film of yourself or others). Patreon isn't pulling support for adult content. They've never allowed "porn", but they've quietly supported adult artists with some pretty vague terms, and an extremely soft hand, as long as you keep your public profile page clean, unoffensive, and properly tagged. Very little is changing in their terms and service, except for some content restrictions... which I haven't seen before, but if their past behavior is any indication, it will likely be treated with some discretion. This seems to be mostly about them handling their public image than it is trying to clamp down on, or force creators out.
 

lenovox1

Member
Jesus... Patreon is bad at explaining this shit. You can't sell access to pornographic material (IE - photographs and film of yourself or others). Patreon isn't pulling support for adult content. They've never allowed "porn", but they've quietly supported adult artists with some pretty vague terms, and an extremely soft hand, as long as you keep your public profile page clean, unoffensive, and properly tagged. Very little is changing in their terms and service, except for some content restrictions... which I haven't seen before, but if their past behavior is any indication, it will likely be treated with some discretion. This seems to be mostly about them handling their public image than it is trying to clamp down on, or force creators out.

Yes. Patreon has multiple terms of service agreements that they also have to abide by to add.
 
Well, looks like my primary ero-com fantasy comic I do every month should be fine. Might have to do more original side comics instead of relying on R34 stuff though. Thanks for the heads up, guys, I'll do a quick page cleanup, get some of the more R34 stuff elsewhere.

(Yes, Adult Patreon CreatorGAF Represent!)
 

Lain

Member
Jesus... Patreon is bad at explaining this shit. You can't sell access to pornographic material (IE - photographs and film of yourself or others). Patreon isn't pulling support for adult content. They've never allowed "porn", but they've quietly supported adult artists with some pretty vague terms, and an extremely soft hand, as long as you keep your public profile page clean, unoffensive, and properly tagged. Very little is changing in their terms and service, except for some content restrictions... which I haven't seen before, but if their past behavior is any indication, it will likely be treated with some discretion. This seems to be mostly about them handling their public image than it is trying to clamp down on, or force creators out.

I hope you're right, because if they touch ShindoL (especially now that he's working on a HRPG in his spare time) I'll riot.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Okay, but to be fair to Huw_Dawson, we should acknowledge that there is definitely a difference between drawing a live model (which is not sexual in context), and that five-way sailor moon gangbang picture with erections and body fluid everywhere. Excuse me for being frank, but there's a line in there somewhere that some people are not comfortable with crossing when it comes to public platforms... which is totally fine and understandable, but we should be careful not to conflate the two, because in most people's minds there is a difference.
Some people wanted to cover up the Michelangelo's David's prick.
There is a line somewhere, but where that line is, varies more than you seem to think.

I've been in arguments with people that think films like Salò or Martyrs should be banned, or ostracized at the very least.
Or the merit of (something like) Gaspar Noe's LOVE being on Netflix, for example.

Patreon is their service, and they're free to do with it as they please, but if we're talking about image, this sends a message in both directions i think, one of which could make them come off as prudes and cowards, two groups of people that have been a pain in the ass for artists for a very long time.
 

s_mirage

Member
Jesus... Patreon is bad at explaining this shit. You can't sell access to pornographic material (IE - photographs and film of yourself or others). Patreon isn't pulling support for adult content. They've never allowed "porn", but they've quietly supported adult artists with some pretty vague terms, and an extremely soft hand, as long as you keep your public profile page clean, unoffensive, and properly tagged. Very little is changing in their terms and service, except for some content restrictions... which I haven't seen before, but if their past behavior is any indication, it will likely be treated with some discretion. This seems to be mostly about them handling their public image than it is trying to clamp down on, or force creators out.

Where's their definition of pornography only being filmed material involving real people? There's no place for vague T&Cs when it comes to content restrictions. As the rules are written, Patreon could become incredibly restrictive without need for additional rule changes. If they only intend to prohibit porn involving real people, they need to explicitly define that in the T&Cs. Without that we could find inconsistent application of rules by different staff members, and no real recourse for creators due to the woolly wording of the T&Cs.

Edit: I get particularly upset about vague rules because I have difficulty believing that they're there by accident; I always assume that they're there to enable an overly broad interpretation when deemed necessary. Whether it's laws or just terms of service, I believe that it is incredibly important that anyone can establish with certainty how they apply. When terms are left in without specific definition, it is impossible to safely assume any particular definition of the term other than the common usage contained in a dictionary. In this case, the dictionary definition of pornography does not exclude written or drawn material, and Patreon's failure to explicitly exclude it either would leave me deeply worried if I was making a living out of their service.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Where's their definition of pornography only being filmed material involving real people? There's no place for vague T&Cs when it comes to content restrictions. As the rules are written, Patreon could become incredibly restrictive without need for additional rule changes. If they only intend to prohibit porn involving real people, they need to explicitly define that in the T&Cs. Without that we could find inconsistent application of rules by different staff members, and no real recourse for creators due to the woolly wording of the T&Cs.

I agree that vagueness is a problem.
And although Patreon is a privately owned company, and they can do whatever they want, in this new age i think these type of companies need to start taking the idea that they're literally responsible for people's livelihoods very seriously, and this vagueness doesn't exactly scream that.
Especially since in the coming decades, the idea of a "real job" will only become more blurry.
 

Cyanity

Banned
Some of Patreon's most-funded projects are porn/fanfic related. Why are they doing this now?

edit - why can't we just leave people alone to do their thing, jeeze?
 

Monocle

Member
Oh no, sex! That thing almost everyone wants that we have to pretend not to want for some reason.

Let's shame all these vile perverted creators of hot things we discreetly love!
 
Jesus... Patreon is bad at explaining this shit. You can't sell access to pornographic material (IE - photographs and film of yourself or others). Patreon isn't pulling support for adult content. They've never allowed "porn", but they've quietly supported adult artists with some pretty vague terms, and an extremely soft hand, as long as you keep your public profile page clean, unoffensive, and properly tagged. Very little is changing in their terms and service, except for some content restrictions... which I haven't seen before, but if their past behavior is any indication, it will likely be treated with some discretion. This seems to be mostly about them handling their public image than it is trying to clamp down on, or force creators out.
I surely hope so. These people really don't deserve being sweeped like this.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
It is when you take out all the context and replace it with "..."



They outline exactly what pornographic materials they're talking about. Basically "Don't use our service to cam girl, make a porno, or use it to prop up another website".

"Such as" is, legally speaking, not all-inclusive of what is banned. Those are examples, not the entire list.
 

Desi

Member
That TOS seems all over the place. It states one thing then hope and denounces it later.

Real talk:Where do I get my blender porn now besides Tumblr?
 

Sulik2

Member
Patreon should setup a cryptocurrency only way of doing patronage. They get a cut of the btc, and don't have to clamp down on their biggest moneymaker.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
I wonder how much of this is to keep their ability to advertise on big ad networks, like AdWords, Facebook, AdRoll, etc. Most of they have pretty strict rules about running ads that leads to "adult" content.
 

LiK

Member
So what about all the sexy art and cosplay? Seems silly unless the content is truly illegal.

I guess creators will probably just go back to using other sorts of donation methods.
 
Okay, but to be fair to Huw_Dawson, we should acknowledge that there is definitely a difference between drawing a live model (which is not sexual in context), and that five-way sailor moon gangbang picture with erections and body fluid everywhere. Excuse me for being frank, but there's a line in there somewhere that some people are not comfortable with crossing when it comes to public platforms... which is totally fine and understandable, but we should be careful not to conflate the two, because in most people's minds there is a difference.

I still believe there needs to be a balance somewhere... because there are a lot of extremely talented adult content creators, and their works are every bit as deserving of support as the next person's are. Don't wanna see it or be associated with it? That's great! But please don't wage a war against Patreon or other sites for supporting the creators of such content just for trying to earn their keep and make their supporters happy.

For what it's worth I actually agree with everything you've said here. It absolutely does suck for porn artists who often are super talented and just want a place that can serve as a market. But I can also see why Patreon has made this decision. Having your site have an association with porn is not usually a good look for a business that isn't specialising in that industry, and that has been something of a constant for the internet.

I hope a decent alternative presents itself so talented artists don't go hungry.

Seems to me like there would be a good market for a website which allows someone to contribute in a Patreon-like way to porn artists. But it makes sense to me that it should be not Patreon.

Oh, folks mentioned Twitch as being full of racists and whatnot. True. Twitch Creative is a very different community to normal Twitch usually, at least in my experience.

Oh and folks also are asking why alt-right awfulness is allowed on Patreon and porn isn't. Good point, but given that alt-right content is not usually relate to porn it is probably best to consider them as separate issues. If you think awful political opinions should or should not be allowed on Patreon is not going to affect how you should feel about porn on the site.

FWIW I'd argue that Patreon is not for political activity either, but that's just me.
 

mugwhump

Member
We ask creators to flag themselves as Adult Content if they create any content that has mature themes such as sexuality or graphic violence. When you are flagged as Adult Content your page is removed from our search.
Oh fuck, that's the real killer right there.
 

Breads

Banned
Their search is pretty shitty anyway, but it does feel a bit like a "please fuck off of our platform".

Not really.

In a sea of free/ pirated content people never accidentally support new finds based on the search feature. People support you on patreon if they are already a fan.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Not really.

In a sea of free/ pirated content people never accidentally support new finds based on the search feature. People support you on patreon if they are already a fan.

Yes, that's the point of the first part of my sentence, meaning the search is not, on a practical level, all that useful.
However as a gesture, it looks like they're trying to move that content to their virtual basement.

And "Adult Content" in this context (by their own description) describes much more than just straight up porn, so it must be a significant chunk of their user base.

It's funny because a lot of artists moved to things like the internet to have more freedom, with things that could upset advertisers/publishers, and it was one of the reasons why (things like) Patreon got popular in the first place, but now they're kind of applying that same mentality anyway.
 
Top Bottom