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WSJ - Camille Paglia: A Feminist Defense of Masculine Virtues
- Thread starter Ripclawe
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Rookje
Member
HolyBaikal
Banned
For reproduction, not stereotypes backed by psuedoscience.
John Kowalski
Banned
What reason is that?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
If there is no biological difference then why do a lot of feminists treat woman like children incapable of thinking for themselves?
Testosterone in and of itself does not lead to a great gender divide though.
It's been a while, but I recall that both genders have testosterone and estrogen, and chromosomes and receptors determine what kind of genitalia you have. Genitalia is what determines if you're a boy or girl but many so called gender differences are actually just chemical differences, which is not the same thing as inherent differences between males and females. For example, men on average have better spatial orientation, but it's not because we are men, but because testosterone helps with that. Jack a woman up with testosterone and the difference disappears. There are biological differences between the genders, but outside our roles in baby making, they're pretty negligible.
Come again?
Well, you have to consider that men naturally produce somewhere around fifteen to twenty times the testosterone of women. That's a pretty significant difference in the biology of both genders regardless of how it testosterone affects both genders equally.
Humans come from a evolutionary path of many, many different beings - on a path where the male and female are biologically different for a reason - more so than just for reproduction, but for safety, living, means of survival, etc.
It's human's evolution into reasoning that then creates a comparison between the differences, and modern society that puts a negative spin on it. We're only here because of our differences.
Testosterone isn't acid dude.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Off the top of my head girls are incapable of consenting to sex while drunk but guys are. Thats a odd difference being put forth by the same people who say there is no biological difference between the sexes. Or is there something I'm missing?
Did the patriarchy break their spirits down so much that they are incapable of the same decision making skills as guys, their biological equals?
Correct, but those natural hormonal levels are a real gender difference. So while not "technically" different, the hormones transform us into very different versions of humanity.
JesseEwiak
Member
I assume this is an MRA argument, but every feminist I know believes nobody is able to consent to sex when intoxicated.
More Fun To Compute
Member
If the military is out of fashion in the US then why is their military spending so high. And those "elites" working more in finance, doesn't she understand how the US military and finance are hand in glove. People calling into call sports radio call shows don't necessarily make nuclear submarines and drones possible.
No it's not acid, but it certainly does alter your perception of things
Here's the This American Life story about a transgendered person who took testosterone for the first time:
smokeandmirrors
Banned
If Philly sports radio is any indictation, the average caller/listener probably couldn't properly dress themselves...
I'm very familiar with military families because I grew up outside of DC and most of my mom's family served in the military. But having firsthand exposure to it is a rarity nowadays with both the cultural ("red" areas sending more people) and geographical divides.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Not familiar with MRAs, do they believe adults are responsible for their actions while drinking?
More Fun To Compute
Member
I understand that the military in the US is being used by federal government to redistribute some wealth from rich to poor states. Maybe this is the "phenomenon" she is complaining about and she just hasn't as much first hand knowledge outside richer parts of the US.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Never read of anything of hers, but it seems damn interesting. I'll have to give her book a read.
Feminists argue for consent. A person, man or woman, can be inebriated and still consent, imo. I don't think there's a general argument in feminist rhetoric that argues women are especially incapable of consent while drunk.
Besides saying anecdotal evidence, why was he taking twice the amount of a normal man? That doesn't seem right.
It's more that there's a cultural divide brewing where the two "sides" aren't intermixing, which is bad for both.
Gotta jump-start the transition and essentially put the body through puberty a second time.
zero shift
Banned
Obviousyly there are things both men and women do naturally only a loon would argue that. However saying that we have gone too far and civilization is at a decline is hilarious.
I remember that program. I did some research to see if what was said is common for trans-gendered surgeries. It was hard to find but from what I gathered interest in sex usually increases. However his new found interest in science was very abnormal in comparison of what usually happens.
Edit - Though it was for computer science not physics.
Sounds like a libertarian.
I remember that program. I did some research to see if what was said is common for trans-gendered surgeries. It was hard to find but from what I gathered interest in sex usually increases. However his new found interest in science was very abnormal in comparison of what usually happens.
Edit - Though it was for computer science not physics.
Sounds like a libertarian.
Clearly to mimic the group most well-known for having high testosterone levels: scientists.
Yeah that science bit was probably just personal stuff maybe caused by chemical changes in the brain who knows. But the libido change seems to be pretty common.
I agree with her some of the time, but her world view is corrupted by some severe paranoia and distrust of people due to an inflated belief in our propensity for violence. She has this visceral bloodlust, but blames violence on the side pushing for diplomacy.
I agree with her that male identity is going through a transition period and is definitely causing some problems at the moment. I don't blame women for that, I think in the long run feminism is a positive for men. The word feminism is a bit of a problem as it flips the view point to be seen through womens. Back in the day that was important as the male view point was the only version. Now it needs some adjusting so we can communicate both genders and differing sexualities in a cohesive whole. Particularly when it comes to male sexuality and identity. I think the gay male movement has been very important here. Women's sexuality is overly emphasized through the male gaze and lacks their own pleasure (ie the orgasm). Where as men's sexuality through the media is save the princess, get laid. Not exactly sensual stuff. When it strays from that we get conservatives being all offended, like the guy in the Progressives thread complaining about gay mens dildos and fishnet stockings. We'll learn and adapt, but going back to our prefeminism days is most certainly a step backward.
I agree with her that male identity is going through a transition period and is definitely causing some problems at the moment. I don't blame women for that, I think in the long run feminism is a positive for men. The word feminism is a bit of a problem as it flips the view point to be seen through womens. Back in the day that was important as the male view point was the only version. Now it needs some adjusting so we can communicate both genders and differing sexualities in a cohesive whole. Particularly when it comes to male sexuality and identity. I think the gay male movement has been very important here. Women's sexuality is overly emphasized through the male gaze and lacks their own pleasure (ie the orgasm). Where as men's sexuality through the media is save the princess, get laid. Not exactly sensual stuff. When it strays from that we get conservatives being all offended, like the guy in the Progressives thread complaining about gay mens dildos and fishnet stockings. We'll learn and adapt, but going back to our prefeminism days is most certainly a step backward.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't know where to start with this.
But feminists don't treat women as incapable of thinking for themselves.
Femmeworth
Banned
Sounds like she puts too much stock into traditional masculinity.
...unless those women think or do something feminists generally don't agree with
Femmeworth
Banned
Freedom of choice is not freedom from criticism. Of course criticism can go too far.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Sounds like someone has tricked you into a very twisted and ignorant view of what feminism means and what feminists stand for.
What is wrong with masculine values? Shouldn't we have a good balance of both?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So basically par for the course for anything on the internet?
What feminists are you talking about? The ones I know are basically completely fine with women who choose to be a stay-at-home-wife or who decide not to abort because they feel its not right or whatever.
radios shipping overview
Member
So is she kinda like Alan Keyes and Bobby Jindal? She reads like a pet feminist owned by the right.
From what I've seen of the movement some feminists think femininity/masculinity are just things constructed by society to further sexist beliefs. The argument is that there's no behavioral characteristics unique to (or predominant in) one gender over the other and that it's possible to change society to change beliefs (which then affects behavior).
Anyway, Paglia sounds like a damn loon. Sure some of the stuff she says appears to be true, but that's like a broken clock being right twice a day. For instance, I remember a story about female teachers being biased against boys while male teachers showed neither side a preference. Things like that are alarming, but it's not feminism doing this on purpose.
There is nothing wrong with masculine values so why is it a good thing to move away from them?
John Kowalski
Banned
Which values are you thinking of?
Because i'm sure every male on earth could point out something off about the masculinity that they are expected to have.
I don't think her premises are accurate. The military is still worshipped in the US, manual labour was never a particularly male thing (intellectual work was historically all done by men), there's still quite some debate on nurture vs nature with respect to differences between the sexes, and sexiness is definitely not dead.
empty vessel
Member
This, there are biological differences and psychological differences between women and men, though they don't have to manifest the way they traditionally have.
This.
Hell even in the areas of work where women were traditionally stereotyped into were dominated by men at the top. Take cooking for example, chefs are predominantly male.
The poster I quoted said that we are just now moving away from masculine values and that its a good thing. So I want to know what they think are masculine values and why those are bad things.
A few points on the bolded text.
1. Her comment on military service isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there are benefits both men and women could gain from it along with the nation as a whole. The issue is seeing what benefits we've gained from the dropping out and rejecting service.
2. Paglia is entirely right that modern mainstream leaders of gender movements will not come to terms with or downright fight the notion of biological determinism. It was downright terrible to see the Nordic Gender Institute stumble on themselves when the biological argument was given to them. It's just not a given possibility and that leads to hurtful discourse. However, we do not yet know where the cultural begins and the biological ends entirely so we can't give up on issues we don't know are unfixable. Worse still, it's hard to think of what proof is needed to make that sort of determination.
3. "And by impugning women who chose to forgo careers to stay at home with children, feminists turned off many who might have happily joined their ranks." is an absolutely ironic line, coming from Camille Paglia after sharing her views on Taylor Swift. It's either hypocrisy or a sign that she's learned the errors of her ways.
4. It is absolutely true that there is a shunning of traditional masculinity in favor of a more feminine masculinity. This is hardly a complaint, though. What should be a visible issue, however, is the wide difference between medical judgements between boys and girls. Things like boys being declared to have ADHD and given medication for it despite less than half the girls get the same thing and both having the biological capability for it. It shows that there may be something to it possibly biological by having women as the standard that is harming men by giving them that medication.
5. The shunning of manual labor and low-end work by both genders, especially women, is a very real issue.
Douglas Quaid
Member
Ding Ding Ding
HolyBaikal
Banned
How did I skim over this?
She isn't a feminist. That's a downright misogynistic thing to say.
Trent Strong
Banned
That's absolutely ridiculous. But from what I've been reading from you over the past few days, I'm pretty sure you're trolling most of the time.
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