• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"Ludonarrative Dissonance" - by Folding Ideas (yes, we're going there yet again!)

firehawk12

Subete no aware
I'd argue that for the vast majority of GTA players Trevor is the more fitting surrogate. Franklin is how we may want to see ourselves, but the second we pick up the controller we turn into the demented hillbilly and we love it.
As I said above, I hated playing Trevor. The part where he murders the stevedore and his wife in a cutscene made me detest the game since it was tinged with misogyny. The only reason I kept him alive at the end was for gameplay reasons.

Well, to be fair, Franklin wasn't exactly given the choice to just ignore the whole issue, especially since he was basically being threatened by two separate organisations (one directly and one indirectly, but still, Devin Weston was quite blatantly threatening Franklin). Though, at that point, being given the chance to off Steve Haines and make Weston suffer a miserable end made keeping Michael and Trevor alive and still getting involved with them an acceptable price in my case (though I didn't really hate them even if I acknowledge all three GTAV protagonists are assholes).
That's true, and it's a bit of a copout that they let you basically save both Michael and Trevor. But I imagine that ending is there to both appease people who might like all three characters, but also for people like me who wanted to have all three characters available for post-ending mission clean up.

It's something I'm personally trying to fix in my own project - Half-Life 2's style of 'cutscene' but considerably more interactive, on top of having point-and-click adventure mechanics. If nothing else, it'll be fun to experiment with.
Good luck! I feel like the spate of VR-based escape room type games is moving in that direction too.
 
The effect was felt really strongly in the Mad Max game. Not at start, sure, but as the game goes on you're better equipped than anybody else, want for pretty much nothing and kill more people than any warlord of the wastes. You should be the warlord.
 

Plum

Member
To me it all comes down to the fact that designers & writers have different goals because gamers don't know what they want (well, the market as a whole). Mass killing people is insanely fun but somehow we don't want to play as the bad guy. Many games work around this by pitting you against evil opponents and while most of them do not deserve to die, you accept it a bit better. Still, the character isn't written as a psychic murderer who'd kill anyone that comes as an obstacle.

Nowadays the issue is even bigger as we want games to be open and give as much freedom & coherence as possible, people would be pissed if civilians were invincible in a realistic context. Let alone being forced to deal with consequences of your bad actions ("killing all cops until they forget you" doesn't count). And that's just for the violence part but it also works all the "it's urgent but I might do side quests before", gamers have their own agenda and don't want to be forced into doing something.

Ultimately, it feels like gamers have now accepted the issue, they want to be treated as kids gameplay-wise with experiences that are more like open toys than strictly-ruled games, yet they also want adult stories. The problem as a whole is insolvable to me, people will always talk about it like they complain how death doesn't have the same meaning in comic books compared to other form of writing, but it will be accepted.

It's a very simple situation to solve, either write the story to compliment the gameplay or make the gameplay compliment the story. In Indiana Jones, the series ND was clearly influenced by when creating UC, almost all of the enemies Indy faces are completely evil and despicable people, whether they be literal Nazis or child slavors/racial stereotypes. The films go out of their way to dehumanise his enemies whilst using historical contexts that people are fine seeing such violence in. Same with Star Wars, the original trilogy had Stormtroopers as literal faceless goons who were also Space Nazis.

Instead with Uncharted the enemies aren't faceless goons, they're mercenaries or impoverished pirates who are shown to have families, ambitions just like the rest of us. They're often after the exact same goal as Nate and it's shown time and again that Nate actively wants that lifestyle, he isn't forced into starting the vast majority of his adventures. That's not a failure of gamers knowing what they want, it's a failure of the ND writing team to write a character and story that actually fit with the pulpy serials they were using as inspiration.

As for the side quest thing; again, that's up to the developers to make work. Of course a developer can never account for everything a player might want to do, but if they cannot account for something they themselves programmed into the game it's, again, not the fault of anyone but them. If you want a good example of player freedom done right see Fallout: New Vegas; the game sets up a goal (find the guy who shot you) but, since it has no urgency the player choosing to go do what they want is entirely accounted for. Essentially, LDND is not an unsolvable problem for the vast majority of cases.
 
I didn't find any Ludo in RDR. I was introduced to a man trying to get back to his family who was a former bandit being forced by Government Forces to act. Not once did I rob a bank or side with criminals or steal horses or whatever else you could do. Only Bounty I ever got was the forced Tutorial one. It played exactly how the cutscenes said it did for me. I was happy to play it that way naturally so I guess some Ludo can come from how you approach playing a game?

I did find some in the cop one they did whose name is eluding me (LA Noire - thank you brain). Was chasing a lead, he runs, gets in a car and flees. You chase. He runs over 3 people and when I catch up with him I was fully expecting to ask my questions and then arrest him for reckless driving and other such driving offenses that have left 3 people dead. Nope. The dissonance I felt in that game was so intense I put it down.
 

Tunahead

Member
I don't really think it's an issue of narratives and killing being opposed, it's just some games trip themselves up. DOOM has already been cited as working thanks to its main character embracing his position as a one man army. You can still humanise the character to an extent as well. Dishonored's Corvo kind of fits here. He has his plights and his agenda but they're never in opposition with the gameplay.

Dishonored is actually an interesting example of the relationship between gameplay and story, because it reveals that a lot of gamers aren't merely indifferent to ludonarrative dissonance, they actually actively revel in it. If you kill a lot of people in Dishonored, you get the High Chaos ending, where the narrator essential points out that if you kill a lot of people, all you end up with is a lot of corpses. No one congratulated you for committing the cool crime of murder. A lot of players were angry about this, because they wanted the freedom to do as they pleased, but none of the consequences. The gameplay affected the plot, and that made people upset.
 

ViviOggi

Member
As I said above, I hated playing Trevor. The part where he murders the stevedore and his wife in a cutscene made me detest the game since it was tinged with misogyny. The only reason I kept him alive at the end was for gameplay reasons.
Yeah that's the point. You can't like Trevor as a person, he's a massive cunt in every way imaginable - but out of the three playable characters isn't the closest reflection of your actions in the game world?
 

daxy

Member
I feel like there should be an overarching term between games and movies, or people should avoid using the term for movies, because ludo is exclusively relevant in the context of games. A dissonance between gameplay and narrative isn't possible in film. Or maybe people should stop tossing it around at the slightest sign of out-of-character behaviour. There's a good argument to be made that it's not even possible in film and I would probably agree.
 

Plum

Member
Re: GTAV

I think a good solution to this issue could be the game only letting you go on random murder sprees with Trevor. Of course this would piss off some people who want to do such things straight away but it would also make a really good contrast between the three characters. Since it's clear Rockstar is going to do multiple protags in GTAVI and probably RDR2 having more variance between each character than just stats and what missions they start would be great.

I didn't find any Ludo in RDR. I was introduced to a man trying to get back to his family who was a former bandit being forced by Government Forces to act. Not once did I rob a bank or side with criminals or steal horses or whatever else you could do. Only Bounty I ever got was the forced Tutorial one. It played exactly how the cutscenes said it did for me. I was happy to play it that way naturally so I guess some Ludo can come from how you approach playing a game?

I did find some in the cop one they did whose name is eluding me (LA Noire - thank you brain). Was chasing a lead, he runs, gets in a car and flees. You chase. He runs over 3 people and when I catch up with him I was fully expecting to ask my questions and then arrest him for reckless driving and other such driving offenses that have left 3 people dead. Nope. The dissonance I felt in that game was so intense I put it down.

Yeah, you not finding it in RDR doesn't mean it's not there. Personally I feel that, if a game allows you to do something (with exceptions, of course) the developers should write the game with the assumption that they will absolutely do such a thing or, if they can't, remove or change the thing itself.

But, yeah, I loved LA Noire but it's so clear that the developers were "forced" into putting those scenes in to give the game more action. They really did just seem like they were thrown in there without thought. It's made worse because the player is forced into doing them, they're not optional.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Yeah that's the point. You can't like Trevor as a person, he's a massive cunt in every way imaginable - but out of the three playable characters isn't the closest reflection of your actions in the game world?
I agree, but I think Trevor crosses a line for me because it feels like his actions are coloured by politics I don't agree with. Then again, I never really went out of my way to cause chaos either in a GTA game.

Now if you want to talk about successful psycho/sociopaths, you have to look no further than Saints Row and "the Boss". Of course at some point they crossed over into parody and were basically making fun of the very game they started out trying to clone.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Dishonored is actually an interesting example of the relationship between gameplay and story, because it reveals that a lot of gamers aren't merely indifferent to ludonarrative dissonance, they actually actively revel in it. If you kill a lot of people in Dishonored, you get the High Chaos ending, where the narrator essential points out that if you kill a lot of people, all you end up with is a lot of corpses. No one congratulated you for committing the cool crime of murder. A lot of players were angry about this, because they wanted the freedom to do as they pleased, but none of the consequences. The gameplay affected the plot, and that made people upset.

That's an interesting point.

What baffles me, is that the gameplay affecting the narrative ties in perfectly with the themes of the game. Everyone who comes into contact with power, be it political, financial or supernatural, becomes corrupted by it; even the player/Corvo is tempted to succumb to The Outsider's gifts and go on a big ol' massacre spree.

I thought it was quite clever.
 
Re: GTAV

I think a good solution to this issue could be the game only letting you go on random murder sprees with Trevor. Of course this would piss off some people who want to do such things straight away but it would also make a really good contrast between the three characters. Since it's clear Rockstar is going to do multiple protags in GTAVI and probably RDR2 having more variance between each character than just stats and what missions they start would be great.

They're all criminals and none of them have an issue with murder, so it wouldn't make sense to restrict killing to Trevor. It's just that Trevor goes at step beyond them, or really any other GTA protagonists for that matter. The game heavily implies that he rapes Floyd. You see him waking up next to Floyd, whose curled up, and you later hear him crying if you stay around long enough. And in a car sequence later Trevor tells him to knock it off unless he wants "you know what" to happen again.
 

Plum

Member
They're all criminals and none of them have an issue with murder, so it wouldn't make sense to restrict killing to Trevor. It's just that Trevor goes at step beyond them, or really any other GTA protagonists for that matter. The game heavily implies that he rapes Floyd. You see him waking up next to Floyd, whose curled up, and you later hear him crying if you stay around long enough. And in a car sequence later Trevor tells him to knock it off unless he wants "you know what" to happen again.

There's a difference between being a criminal and being a mass-murdering psychopath, you know. It makes no sense for Micheal or Franklin to just start killing tens of innocent bystanders but it makes perfect sense for Trevor to do so, why not restrict such actions to the character written specifically for them? The story missions do this by having Trevor be the one doing all the most crazy shit (crashing two trains together, setting that drug family's house on fire, etc) and having him be the one to do the torture mission. I'm proposing they take what they set out in the story and, since there's little reason not to with the character switching, carry it over to the general open world gameplay.
 

Joohanh

Member
Gotta admit: if I wanted to hire a director/writer for my game and the only thing I had as reference for Druckmann was that Rolling Stone interview, I would not fucking hire that guy. :D So cringe-worthy stuff it blows my mind.

It's a stylized reality where the conflicts are lighter, where death doesn't have the same weight.

We're not trying to make a statement about Third World mercenaries, or the toll of having killed hundreds of people in your life.
...except that it's not. It's so close to literally trying to save your cake and eat it too it's incredible.

I want it to ask interesting questions, or at least have people ask those questions of themselves. Can you balance passion versus settling down? That, to me, is the heart of this thing, which mirrors a lot of our lives as game developers. I'm sure you've read about "crunch," and how difficult that can be on personal lives. We've all joined this industry with the hope of affecting people, touching them in some way. Which is why we work so hard, sometimes to destructive outcomes. So in this game, I really wanted to explore that. To kind of use the pulp action-adventure story as a backdrop, but it's all kind of a metaphor for our life's pursuit.
deep
 
There's a difference between being a criminal and being a mass-murdering psychopath, you know. It makes no sense for Micheal or Franklin to just start killing tens of innocent bystanders but it makes perfect sense for Trevor to do so, why not restrict such actions to the character written specifically for them? The story missions do this by having Trevor be the one doing all the most crazy shit (crashing two trains together, setting that drug family's house on fire, etc) and having him be the one to do the torture mission. I'm proposing they take what they set out in the story and, since there's little reason not to with the character switching, carry it over to the general open world gameplay.

But what is it about Michael and Franklin that makes you think it makes no sense for them to do that? The game literally opens with Michael and Trevor robbing a bank before going out and mowing down endless police that are trying to stop them. It establishes him as a monster from the jump. If you're willing to gun down cops, then you aren't going to think twice about someone just walking down the street. I guess you could make an argument for Franklin, but he also looks up to Michael. He sees him as being where he wants to be. Rich off of committing crimes. So, he's willing to go along with what'll get him there.
 
Dishonored is actually an interesting example of the relationship between gameplay and story, because it reveals that a lot of gamers aren't merely indifferent to ludonarrative dissonance, they actually actively revel in it. If you kill a lot of people in Dishonored, you get the High Chaos ending, where the narrator essential points out that if you kill a lot of people, all you end up with is a lot of corpses. No one congratulated you for committing the cool crime of murder. A lot of players were angry about this, because they wanted the freedom to do as they pleased, but none of the consequences. The gameplay affected the plot, and that made people upset.

This is probably one of the things I loved most about the game. The ending I got made sense to me. Shame it seems I'm not in the majority on that one then, haha.
 

Famassu

Member
Just sounds like he doesn't like it when applied to Uncharted. The game isn't trying to say anything negative about violence with its story, or that Nathan Drake is an angel who can do no wrong or anything and the gun fights are just ways to bring the kind of pulp fictiony excitement to its gameplay that exist in the movies of the genre, and as such there's arguably no ludonarrative dissonance that some people liked to REAAAALLY throw at Uncharted for a while.
 

dlauv

Member
I wouldn't say GTA counts because the gameplay shifts into more of an open-ended sandbox. The choice of the player to act somewhat incongruous with the narrative is, or should be, an understood and optional liberty. And even then, it's not terribly incongruous when stuff really hits the fan later on. And a lot of the crazier stuff is unlocked behind progression walls anyway. In other words, while it facilitates ludonarrative dissonance, it isn't inherently dissonant.

This is in contrast to gameplay that directly and inherently clashes with the narrative, like in, say, Uncharted or TR13.

It's not the most important part of a game in most cases, obviously, but it's certainly a valid criticism. I agree with the video. Uncharted rubs me the wrong way particularly due to its patronizingly hunky-dory narrative even though it's objectively little worse than something like TR13 -- which comes off more as clueless. It's like Indiana Jones with no finesse and entirely up its own ass. Tibet, in Uncharted 2, was jaw-dropping for all of the wrong reasons. "Bye guys!" Then it ends with Drake killing everyone but the main villain because Drake wishes to prove to himself and to the villain that, in spite of his anger, Drake isn't the cold-blooded killer he's being purported to be. It pains me to know that this writer also wrote much of the Legacy of Kain series. Granted, if it were a stronger game, the narrative issues could be swept under the rug for me. Likewise, if the narrative were stronger or more congruous, it would present a more positive context for the somewhat mediocre shootbang to be enjoyed.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I feel like there should be an overarching term between games and movies, or people should avoid using the term for movies, because ludo is exclusively relevant in the context of games. A dissonance between gameplay and narrative isn't possible in film. Or maybe people should stop tossing it around at the slightest sign of out-of-character behaviour. There's a good argument to be made that it's not even possible in film and I would probably agree.

The whole term is kinda meaningless and wooly imho. Particularly when "Gameplay" seems in many cases to be just taken as a synonym what the player does some or most of the time.

Drake shooting and punching lots of dudes is a genre convention, because the genre the Uncharted inhabits is "action". In cinema, genre and narrative can be freely matched up, its just as reasonable to have an action-comedy as well as action-drama; yet somehow in this small-minded world of games criticism we have this ludicrous conceit that somehow the two must be meshed.
 

Plum

Member
But what is it about Michael and Franklin that makes you think it makes no sense for them to do that? The game literally opens with Michael and Trevor robbing a bank before going out and mowing down endless police that are trying to stop them. It establishes him as a monster from the jump. If you're willing to gun down cops, then you aren't going to think twice about someone just walking down the street. I guess you could make an argument for Franklin, but he also looks up to Michael. He sees him as being where he wants to be. Rich off of committing crimes. So, he's willing to go along with what'll get him there.

It's the difference between motivation and no motivation. Micheal kills cops because he's getting paid because of it, same with Franklin. Neither are shown to kill or harm innocent people for literally no reason except their own twisted perversions, Trevor's shown to do so multiple times throughout the story. They're massively different people and I don't know how you can't see that.

Just sounds like he doesn't like it when applied to Uncharted. The game isn't trying to say anything negative about violence with its story, or that Nathan Drake is an angel who can do no wrong or anything and the gun fights are just ways to bring the kind of pulp fictiony excitement to its gameplay that exist in the movies of the genre, and as such there's arguably no ludonarrative dissonance that some people liked to REAAAALLY throw at Uncharted for a while.

I've said it before but the reason Uncharted gets the criticism thrown at it is because it doesn't justify its pulpy feel with the writing. Indiana Jones fights Nazis to save the world, Luke Skywalker fights Space Nazis to save the galaxy, Nathan Drake fights impoverished third world pirates and mercenaries just doing their job because, for the most part, he wants to. Some people can look past that, which is fine, but that doesn't suddenly make the criticisms thrown at Uncharted wrong.

The whole term is kinda meaningless and wooly imho. Particularly when "Gameplay" seems in many cases to be just taken as a synonym what the player does some or most of the time.

Drake shooting and punching lots of dudes is a genre convention, because the genre the Uncharted inhabits is "action". In cinema, genre and narrative can be freely matched up, its just as reasonable to have an action-comedy as well as action-drama; yet somehow in this small-minded world of games criticism we have this ludicrous conceit that somehow the two must be meshed.

Why is the whole term meaningless because people aren't willing to look at the genre and how that might affect the story? In cinema genre and narrative are freely matched up but, when they are, the tone and writing must be done in a way that they make sense. Genre isn't some deflection of criticism as you think it is. Also, flavouring your points with phrases such as the "small-minded world of games criticism" doesn't exactly make you seem very qualified to talk about things. Sounds more like you've got a beef with people looking at games from a more critical perspective than you do with the term itself.
 

hotcyder

Member
Me too, mainly as I found the puzzles either ridiculously easy or that they solved themselves, when Drake is supposed to be working this stuff out from his journal, but the game thinks nohting of forcing you play out yet another wave of reinforcements just like the last one. TPS is obviously a fun, popular genre, but minimising any climbing or puzzles to solely focus on the shooting missed an opportunity for Uncharted to step into the adventure genre where the characters, story and tone feel a bit more comfortable to me. TPS was in vogue at the time though.

If Uncharted was Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis in 3D with a TPS interface I probably would of bought a PS3
 

ViviOggi

Member
The whole term is kinda meaningless and wooly imho. Particularly when "Gameplay" seems in many cases to be just taken as a synonym what the player does some or most of the time.

Drake shooting and punching lots of dudes is a genre convention, because the genre the Uncharted inhabits is "action". In cinema, genre and narrative can be freely matched up, its just as reasonable to have an action-comedy as well as action-drama; yet somehow in this small-minded world of games criticism we have this ludicrous conceit that somehow the two must be meshed.
It's a matter of tone in either medium. Uncharted's combat sequences, with their insane body count and humorless brand of Hollywood realism, don't fit Drake's quippy, happy go lucky character from the cutscenes, just like an action comedy wouldn't work with action scenes straight out of Taken.

People trying to deflect this criticism by bringing up the Indy movies has always felt odd to me considering that one half of Uncharted thoroughly fails at replicating the exaggeration and comic relief inherent in most of Indy's kills.
 

nel e nel

Member
In terms of gaming it took off for a few years and then basically died. You rarely ever hear about it it now because the pushback against it was so strong due to how overused the term became. To some extent it was basically a meme at one point.

There's that, but I also feel like it's so prevalent in the medium that it's just implied with many releases. Until there is a paradigm shift in how conflict is handled in games, it's just part of the background radiation at this point.
 
It's the difference between motivation and no motivation. Micheal kills cops because he's getting paid because of it, same with Franklin. Neither are shown to kill or harm innocent people for literally no reason except their own twisted perversions, Trevor's shown to do so multiple times throughout the story. They're massively different people and I don't know how you can't see that.

Yes, they're massively different except when it comes to murder. They're never shown to really have any issue with murder as long as it gets them to their end goal, which is cash. Aside from that, how would they realistically avoid killing civilians with Michael and Franklin? It would mean that they could never be playable in the open-world. They'd have to be 100% restricted to missions. And specific missions where you're locked into an area without civilians. Which would only be a very small number of missions.
 

daxy

Member
The whole term is kinda meaningless and wooly imho. Particularly when "Gameplay" seems in many cases to be just taken as a synonym what the player does some or most of the time.

Drake shooting and punching lots of dudes is a genre convention, because the genre the Uncharted inhabits is "action". In cinema, genre and narrative can be freely matched up, its just as reasonable to have an action-comedy as well as action-drama; yet somehow in this small-minded world of games criticism we have this ludicrous conceit that somehow the two must be meshed.

Yeah I see what you mean. I don't see LND as a fault per se, though some would like to disagree. It's rather a design choice about player interaction. As players are given more freedom of choice and action, there will always be a degree of distance with the overarching thematics, narrative, or character motivation. So then it becomes a matter of prioritization on a spectrum that runs between VN/'walking sim' to things like Minecraft. Games like Breath of the Wild which loses its stated urgency in how it motivates you to explore the world or GTA where character motivation doesn't line up with player capacity can be placed somewhere along such a spectrum.

In the end, most games that experience LND can be played in a way to avoid it. So LND is purely facilitated by the player's desire to engage in it or not. That's why l don't believe that limiting a player's scope of interaction with the world is a solution at all if the design goal is to create a world with highly varied player interaction. The story is just not always the priority and doesn't need to be in video games, because it is the interaction that sets this medium apart from other ones. Not everything needs to have an in-world justification if the game doesn't seek to be an immersive simulation. That would be quite boring and even limiting to creative freedom in games that focus on experiential novelty over narrative. Why can Magikarp jump so high in Magikarp Jump? That's never explained in the world of Pokemon. That doesn't make it wrong to make a silly game about a fish that jumps high in the context of Pokemon.
 

Plum

Member
Yes, they're massively different except when it comes to murder. They're never shown to really have any issue with murder as long as it gets them to their end goal, which is cash. Aside from that, how would they realistically avoid killing civilians with Michael and Franklin? It would mean that they could never be playable in the open-world. They'd have to be 100% restricted to missions. And specific missions where you're locked into an area without civilians. Which would only a very small number of missions.

There's plenty of ways to do it. Assassins Creed has the system where you get a game over after killing a certain number of civilians, most other games just make your gun not work when pointing it at people they don't want you to kill. As for "they're massively different except when it comes to murder." That's wrong. Killing indiscriminately for no reason is not the same as killing people for cash, and we're only talking what the game allows each character to do during general open world gameplay here.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I don't think we should consider LD as anything more than an interesting critique. I don't think we should call for games like GTA to limit player agency for the sake of it.

In fact, it raises an interesting point.

In GTA (or similar open world titles), how much of LD is down to the player as an actor/agent?

Simply because you have been given the tools to do whatever you want, doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.

Is there some responsibility on the players themselves to act out the role to avoid LD? It is, after all, their 'experience' that is ultimately affected.
 

nel e nel

Member
I've said it before but the reason Uncharted gets the criticism thrown at it is because it doesn't justify its pulpy feel with the writing. Indiana Jones fights Nazis to save the world, Luke Skywalker fights Space Nazis to save the galaxy, Nathan Drake fights impoverished third world pirates and mercenaries just doing their job because, for the most part, he wants to. Some people can look past that, which is fine, but that doesn't suddenly make the criticisms thrown at Uncharted wrong.

But isn't the basic plots of Uncharted 2 & 3 about keeping morally dubious mercenaries from acquiring some mystical artifact that would give them extreme power? Lazaravic and immortality, Marlowe and large scale mind control/hallucinogenic agent? Sure, they start off with him chasing a sel-serving goal, but they change when they realize the gravity of the situation.
 

Plum

Member
Let's not take LD as anything more than a critique here. I don't think games like GTA should limit player action for the sake of it.

Yeah, don't get me wrong I don't see GTA's story as important enough to do such a thing. It's just a proposal that was made to seem more important because of the usual GAF arguments.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
It's a matter of tone in either medium. Uncharted's combat sequences, with their insane body count and humorless brand of Hollywood realism, don't fit Drake's quippy, happy go lucky character from the cutscenes, just like an action comedy wouldn't work with action scenes straight out of Taken.

People trying to deflect this criticism by bringing up the Indy movies has always felt odd to me considering that one half of Uncharted thoroughly fails at replicating the exaggeration and comic relief inherent in most of Indy's kills.

In the overwhelming majority of movies in the action genre, the heroes rarely reflect on the consequences of their actions or the body count they rack up, because to do so would slow down proceedings and fundamentally change the tone of the work.

The actual nature of the action is pretty much irrelevent; for example prime-era Seagal movies feature our "hero" dispatching goons with the same level of sadistic intensity as Jason in Friday the 13th, but that doesn't place them in a different genre from most of say Schwarzenegger's quip-heavy work of the same period.

The key point is that all inhabit a fantasy bubble that facilitates the performance of genre-defining content. Because that content is the draw, what surrounds it is stage-dressing.
 

What's most frustrating about this perspective, and one of the things that's always stuck with me when people try to claim that video games are the only medium where people act as though elements of a movie can be at odds with each other, rather than treating them as a whole, is that it's fundamentally not true. People have been writing essays and making commentary for decades about the dissonance in how faceless mooks are treated in works of fiction vs all the themes and considerations applied to named characters, particularly in such works that promote empathy, kindness, and forgiveness. Star Wars in particular has that as one of the great debates over whether or not Luke was right to forgive Darth Vader, while not offering the same to most of the villains he faced, to the point it crept into the text of several EU works. Similarly, the Jedi being the supposed champions of a free democracy even while the army they fought alongside was made of rapidly grown child soldiers with no indication of proper rights and freedoms outside of being soldiers. This is not new nor exclusive to video games, so people acting like it is, is one of the dumbest things around - maybe it's the fact we call it 'ludonarrative dissonance' specifically instead of just 'internal dissonance', or something more generally applicable.

Now, treating it as something that automatically breaks or completely undermines a work? That's silly, yes. The Nathan Drake example does get irritating after a while because it's been reduced to a memetic joke, so it's invoked without the intent for much of an actual narrative discussion or consideration of how the games might be flawed; it just goes 'haw haw, he's a murderer' even while that's applicable to an immense portion of the medium's major protagonists. But just because it's been handled poorly in that instance doesn't mean the concept as a whole should just be tossed out.

So yeah, good video, glad it was made.
 

Parsnip

Member
NLDEGQU.jpg


Always thought this Gunpoint achievement was great.
 
But isn't the basic plots of Uncharted 2 & 3 about keeping morally dubious mercenaries from acquiring some mystical artifact that would give them extreme power? Lazaravic and immortality, Marlowe and large scale mind control/hallucinogenic agent? Sure, they start off with him chasing a sel-serving goal, but they change when they realize the gravity of the situation.

That usually only crops up after Nathan's killed 300 guys or so. Nathan racks up some pretty impressive bodycounts just for $$$ (and the thrill of ending lives, I presume).
 

AniHawk

Member

every time i hear something from this guy he drops a few points for me, and it's not like he was ever in a positive standing. does he ride the coattails of some co-director or something? the last of us and uncharted 4 in particular do a lot more to make the ludonarrative dissonance less problematic and it's weird that he'd have a pushback against the term when it's one of the things i think naughty dog improved on in the seven years after uncharted 2.

and if the guy really thinks he's making indiana jones then i hope he can take a step back and take another good long hard look at what he's doing like when the monsters in the last of us were originally all women (oops).
 
No, the solution is to either write a story ("Fun adventure about a quirky bunch of well-meaning, treasure-hunting friends") and build the game around it, or make a game ("Killing hundreds or thousands of people") and write the story around it. But devs want to have their cake and eat it too, so we get dissonance.

Yeah I rather have ludonarrative dissonance in my games than what you've just suggested.
 

Famassu

Member
I've said it before but the reason Uncharted gets the criticism thrown at it is because it doesn't justify its pulpy feel with the writing. Indiana Jones fights Nazis to save the world, Luke Skywalker fights Space Nazis to save the galaxy, Nathan Drake fights impoverished third world pirates and mercenaries just doing their job because, for the most part, he wants to. Some people can look past that, which is fine, but that doesn't suddenly make the criticisms thrown at Uncharted wrong.
How are mercenaries who kill for money or modern day pirates any better than nazis? These are not some army forces of a nation doing an actual job, but people who do bad things for people for money. And Nathan doesn't "want to" kill people. He wants to find hidden treasures of the world. It just so happens that (at least the few times during the games) when he does so, there are also some people with murderous henchemen against them.
 

Hermii

Member
But isn't the basic plots of Uncharted 2 & 3 about keeping morally dubious mercenaries from acquiring some mystical artifact that would give them extreme power? Lazaravic and immortality, Marlowe and large scale mind control/hallucinogenic agent? Sure, they start off with him chasing a sel-serving goal, but they change when they realize the gravity of the situation.

I would also argue Indy is starting out with a self serving goal. Fortune and glory? He is in it for the adventure just as much as Drake. When he got so exited to go after the arc, he the exitment didn't come from stopping the nazis from having it.
 

AniHawk

Member
I would also argue Indy is starting out with a self serving goal. Fortune and glory? He is in it for the adventure just as much as Drake. When he got so exited to go after the arc, he the exitment didn't come from stopping the nazis from having it.

yeah but unlike nathan drake, he has a fascination with history and wants it for the sake of the discovery and the world. nathan drake wants treasure for himself so he can have treasure and also probably be rich.

indiana jones also is sort of a superhero which adds to his appeal. by 'day' an archaeology professor, by 'night' a globetrotting (archaeologist) treasure-hunter. there's a bit of wish fulfillment in indiana jones that also feels logical. until uncharted 4, nathan drake is just a treasure hunter because indiana jones question mark?

to that end, i think uncharted 4 should have straight-up been the only uncharted game. it does so much more to make sense of the character in his world, and manages to get a lot closer to indiana jones out of nathan drake. that and toning back the amount of shooting in favor of puzzle-solving and swashbuckling adventure went a long way towards nailing the tone. and in this game nathan is pretty justified in what he's doing as a 'good guy' for using violence in self-defense, against people who are out to kill his brother. i'm so impressed by it, that it seems like it was all done on purpose, but apparently it's just druckmann getting lucky since he doesn't know what he's doing.
 
There's plenty of ways to do it. Assassins Creed has the system where you get a game over after killing a certain number of civilians, most other games just make your gun not work when pointing it at people they don't want you to kill. As for "they're massively different except when it comes to murder." That's wrong. Killing indiscriminately for no reason is not the same as killing people for cash, and we're only talking what the game allows each character to do during general open world gameplay here.

But you haven't given a reason as to why Franklin or Michael wouldn't kill indiscriminately. This is precisely why you find so many people who find this term obnoxious. Because people can't actually tell you why this or that shouldn't happen. Where is it established that murdering indiscriminately is just something that Franklin and Michael wouldn't do? Where it's just something out of character for both of them? It seems like you want them to be different in this very specific way, even though they game never suggests that they're different in that way.

As for getting a game over if you kill a number of civilians, how would that work in GTA? If you're driving and lose control and plow into civilians, would that trigger the game over? What about if you're in a shootout in a mission and accidentally hit whatever that magic number is of civilians?
 

Plum

Member
But isn't the basic plots of Uncharted 2 & 3 about keeping morally dubious mercenaries from acquiring some mystical artifact that would give them extreme power? Lazaravic and immortality, Marlowe and large scale mind control/hallucinogenic agent? Sure, they start off with him chasing a sel-serving goal, but they change when they realize the gravity of the situation.

Those elements come into the plot after the adventure has already started; contrast this to Indy where it's made clear at the start of each film that the Nazis are trying to find something and they will unless Indy gets there first; either that or there's a village and its kids that need to be saved. In Uncharted 2, 3 and 4 most, if not all, the events could have been avoided if Drake hadn't wanted to find the treasure himself. In 2 and 3 he finds a map, key, whatever that, if thrown away or torn up, would make the enemy's plan hopeless. In 4
he's tricked by his brother
, which is fine, but
this fact is merely a twist, Drake holds literally no resentment for his brother tricking him into killing hundreds and endangering his, Sully and Elena's lives for nothing, Sam even gets a happy ending after everything despite being no better than Raif (?).
.

To put it bluntly; outside of the first game the narratives fail to make Drake seem like anything more than selfish which makes the fact that he kills hundreds of people, causes millions in property damage (almost always in third world countries) and endangers his and his family/friend's lives all the worse. Indiana Jones or Star Wars it is not.

How are mercenaries who kill for money or modern day pirates any better than nazis? These are not some army forces of a nation doing an actual job, but people who do bad things for people for money. And Nathan doesn't "want to" kill people. He wants to find hidden treasures of the world. It just so happens that (at least the few times during the games) when he does so, there are also some people with murderous henchemen against them.

So in your eyes Nazis are more sympathetic than Somali pirates or Mercenaries because, after all, they're the armed forces of a nation doing an actual job. Wow.

As for Nathan not wanting to kill people. If he legitimately wanted to avoid combat he would have stopped when he was 15-or-so and Marlowe's henchmen tried to kill him for stealing some treasure, or he would have stopped after his own brother supposedly dies because of his thrill-seeking adventures. Uncharted 4 spoilers:
At the end of UC4 it's even shown that he could become incredibly successful without the need to kill thousands of people.

But you haven't given a reason as to why Franklin or Michael wouldn't kill indiscriminately. This is precisely why you find so many people who find this term obnoxious. Because people can't actually tell you why this or that shouldn't happen. Where is it established that murdering indiscriminately is just something that Franklin and Michael wouldn't do? Where it's just something out of character for both of them? It seems like you want them to be different in this very specific way, even though they game never suggests that they're different in that way.

If you can't see why Micheal and Franklin wouldn't start killing people indiscriminately after I've tried many times to explain then you won't see why.
 
I don't think we should consider LD as anything more than an interesting critique. I don't think we should call for games like GTA to limit player agency for the sake of it.

In fact, it raises an interesting point.

In GTA (or similar open world titles), how much of LD is down to the player as an actor/agent?

Simply because you have been given the tools to do whatever you want, doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.

Is there some responsibility on the players themselves to act out the role to avoid LD? It is, after all, their 'experience' that is ultimately affected.

I love LND as a discussion because I think it proves gaming is still coming out of infancy and experiencing growing pains. Narrative in games is still fairly new, and especially as we move towards open world games that encourage players to do whatever they want, while still trying to tell a specific narrative, the two are obviously going to clash.

I think there are two big problems:

1) In the case of open world games, we also NEED open stories and not just open gameplay. Red Dead Redemption has been discussed earlier in this thread as a great example of a game that tries to tell a story about an ex-criminal seeking redemption in life and starting a new chapter where he strives to live morally and legally. Yet the player is not only allowed, but often encouraged, to break the law by robbing banks etc during "gameplay" sections of the game. If that's a design decision the devs want to take with gameplay, then that's fine, but they also need to allow the story to evolve to reflect the player's actions. You can't have the story ignore and contradict those actions and pretend the player is a "good guy", and honestly I think a story that reflects player actions, varying from one player to the next, is something the medium should be striving towards. It's something games can do that no other medium can. The Elder Scrolls and Fallout are among the very few games that attempt this, and don't even come close to achieving it well enough. I really wish more developers would try.

2) In the case of linear games that force their specific story without open worlds, they SHOULD have more freedom to carefully manage gameplay mechanics to fit their narratives but typically don't. The Tomb Raider reboot frustrated me here, painting Lara as a teen struggling to survive and perpetually afraid, unsure of her own capabilities, but in the hands of the player a ruthlessly efficient murder machine who guns enemies' heads off. And Mirror's Edge just made me explode with anger over video gaming's obsession with guns and violence as a gameplay mechanic. This was a game that had created a phenomenal new gameplay mechanic, unseen in any previous game, 100% unique, easy to learn but hard to master (so perfect way to test player skill and progression through gameplay) and an immense amount of fun. Yet the devs (or the publisher) apparently couldn't imagine a video game being fun without guns and violence being involved, so forced combat and guns into the gameplay as well. This one's a little different since the game's narrative DOES reflect this violence and builds the story around it well enough, but I'm completely convinced that not only was the story built around the idea that a game absolutely needs guns and violence, but that the game would have been better off WITHOUT them, and would have been more fun with the emphasis placed firmly on parkour without the interruption of combat. It's a clear sign, to me, that one of the main reasons we have these issues of Nathan Drake and Lara Croft murdering hundreds of people per game is because developers don't trust players to be able to enjoy a game without it, and don't trust themselves at the prospect of creating a gameplay mechanic that is as fun as combat, yet isn't combat and violence related.

500px-Header_%28Mirror%27s_Edge%29.png
 

redcrayon

Member
How are mercenaries who kill for money or modern day pirates any better than nazis? These are not some army forces of a nation doing an actual job, but people who do bad things for people for money. And Nathan doesn't "want to" kill people. He wants to find hidden treasures of the world. It just so happens that (at least the few times during the games) when he does so, there are also some people with murderous henchemen against them.


To be fair, Nate wants to steal hidden treasures for his own personal gain, which isn't that different from the mercenaries- he's just a self-employed, armed thief as opposed to a merc hired to protect a wealthy employer looking for treasure. Hard to say Nate is the good guy when, when he has the treasure and the baddies want it, he does exactly the same as them- he's prepared to kill to keep hold of what he thinks should be his.

The main thing telling the player that Drake's faction is any morally less dubious in terms of stealing foreign treasure that doesn't belong to him is that he's a handsome, charismatic white guy prepared to do the dirty work of theft and violence himself rather than a foreigner employing generic foreign mooks to do it for him. Late in the games, Nate's generic affable criminality (when overseas) is seen as comparatively harmless compared to the schemes of his main enemy, but it doesn't really make his initial motivations as a professional armed thief any more justifiable morally than a private military contractor hired to protect a dig site. Makes for a conflict of interests which is needed though.

Where the vast majority of the npcs aren't batshit crazy about the supernatural stuff, they aren't that different from Drake in terms of just being heavily armed thieves on the trail of a legend and ready to fight off rivals, they just tend to have far more resources which makes us empathise with his affable underdog situation and forget that he's there for the exact same reason.
 

Famassu

Member
yeah but unlike nathan drake, he has a fascination with history and wants it for the sake of the discovery and the world. nathan drake wants treasure for himself so he can have treasure and also probably be rich.

indiana jones also is sort of a superhero which adds to his appeal. by 'day' an archaeology professor, by 'night' a globetrotting (archaeologist) treasure-hunter. there's a bit of wish fulfillment in indiana jones that also feels logical. until uncharted 4, nathan drake is just a treasure hunter because indiana jones question mark?

to that end, i think uncharted 4 should have straight-up been the only uncharted game. it does so much more to make sense of the character in his world, and manages to get a lot closer to indiana jones out of nathan drake. that and toning back the amount of shooting in favor of puzzle-solving and swashbuckling adventure went a long way towards nailing the tone. and in this game nathan is pretty justified in what he's doing as a 'good guy' for using violence in self-defense, against people who are out to kill his brother. i'm so impressed by it, that it seems like it was all done on purpose, but apparently it's just druckmann getting lucky since he doesn't know what he's doing.
Lol, Indiana Jones is not a superhero. And Nathan Drake is shown to have just as much interest in the adventure & discovery side. That's his whole driving force to even do all the shit he does.

And Druckmann knows what he's doing far better than you know what you're arguing. Just because he disagrees with the fairly weak ludonarrative dissonance arguments in regards to Uncharted doesn't mean he doesn't.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
The fundamental issue for me is that it needs to be understood that games, even more than cinema, are typically bound-uptight by genre conventions.

Uncharted 4 is a classic example of this because it shows how perceptions/reactions change when the makers back-off from one set of content expectations. In UC4 they leaven the wall-to-wall action (the source of the alleged ludo-narrative dissonance) with extended "quiet" sequences of narrative and exploration, and end up being criticized for turning the game into a "walking simulator".

"Walking Simulator" being of course, a different genre of game!
 

nel e nel

Member
That usually only crops up after Nathan's killed 300 guys or so. Nathan racks up some pretty impressive bodycounts just for $$$ (and the thrill of ending lives, I presume).


Those elements come into the plot after the adventure has already started; contrast this to Indy where it's made clear at the start of each film that the Nazis are trying to find something and they will unless Indy gets there first; either that or there's a village and its kids that need to be saved.

To put it bluntly; outside of the first game the narratives fail to make Drake seem like anything more than selfish which makes the fact that he kills hundreds of people, causes millions in property damage (almost always in third world countries) and endangers his and his family/friend's lives all the worse. Indiana Jones or Star Wars it is not.

Definitely agree, and I had that in the back of my mind when making my post, which then brings it back to my earlier point:



There's that, but I also feel like it's so prevalent in the medium that it's just implied with many releases. Until there is a paradigm shift in how conflict is handled in games, it's just part of the background radiation at this point.

I feel like a lot of pushback from developers and consumers is that we are comfortable with how conflict is handled in games, and changing that up is hard/scary/whatever.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Great video, and I agree with it. It's a valid concept that should be considered when trying to critique games as a whole.

However, it is important to understand that the nature of a video game (and the way the industry has gone) makes it hard to avoid ludonarrative dissonance, especially because the developer wants to make the game fun, and so sacrifices coherence for this quality.

That being said, it is a good point to bring up, and I think games which are built with the importance on the impact of the story should try to adhere to having symbiotic balance.
 

Plum

Member
The fundamental issue for me is that it needs to be understood that games, even more than cinema, are typically bound-uptight by genre conventions.

Uncharted 4 is a classic example of this because it shows how perceptions/reactions change when the makers back-off from one set of content expectations. In UC4 they leaven the wall-to-wall action (the source of the alleged ludo-narrative dissonance) with extended "quiet" sequences of narrative and exploration, and end up being criticized for turning the game into a "walking simulator".

"Walking Simulator" being of course, a different genre of game!

The problem with the slower segments of UC4 wasn't that they were slow, it was because they were poorly designed and lacked any sort of challenge. Up until the very, very end of the game the climbing offered no challenge to anyone who knew how to use a controller. There was no incentive to explore the wide open spaces if you didn't care about useless collectibles as the path forward was always clear. Then the puzzles were, for the most part, incredibly easy and that's been the same for the entire series.

Those weren't genre constraints; Edith Finch did no-challenge "walking simulator" type gameplay well and there's countless games that show how puzzles can work in a similar type of story. The issue wasn't genre constraints, it was bad game design and bad pacing. In a game with amazing gunplay being ripped away to do some menial puzzle or climbing section is frustrating. Same happened with LA Noire, being taken away from puzzling and crime solving to partake in a crappy GoW knock-off made some of the worst moments of that game.
 
Top Bottom