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BumRush
Member
(12-09-2016, 12:39 AM)
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Welcome to NeoGAF's official TV thread!

First and foremost, this thread is the spiritual successor to Spannicus' excellent 2013 TV thread, that can be found here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516410

Current TV Technologies - will expand


- LED
- OLED
- Others

Current Resolutions - will expand
- 1080P
- 4K
- 8K

Other Terms to Know
- Color Banding -
- Contrast Ratio -
- Dynamic Metadata -
- HDR - High Dynamic Range - The goal of HDR is to better reproduce the tremendous range of brightnesses found in the real world. Traditional media and displays show the interior of a dark cave or a bright sunny day by adjusting exposure to bring both into a similar range, like looking at two photographs side by side. Compare that to walking into a dark cave where your eyes slowly adjust to reveal subtle details in the darkness, and then into a bright meadow where the sun is almost painfully bright until your eyes adjust to take in the vibrant colors. Thatís what HDR is supposed to do.There are two competition specifications, HDR10 and Dolby Vision, that tackle the same problem (for more information see this site.) HDR10 appears to be gaining more momentum though there are definitely advantages to Dolby Vision. One of the early missteps of HDR10 is not having strict compliance requirements. So there are sets that can interpret the HDR10 signal and produce an image without actually delivering the intended experience. UHD Premium certification is one way to tell if a set can simultaneously produce sufficient shadow detail and low enough black levels as well as the desired peak brightness. (thanks Lady Gaia)
- HFR -
- IPS -
- LCD -
- LED -
- Near Black -
- OLED -
- QLED -
- Refresh Rate -
- Resolution -
- Uniformity -
- VA -
- Vignetting -

HDMI Types - will expand
- 1.0 -
- 1.4 -
- 2.0 -
- 2.1 - The upcoming standard (not yet available, as it is set to release in Q2 2017)
Link to Caayn's thread on 2.1
...improvements over HDMI 2.0
  • Higher Video Resolutions support a range of higher resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail.
  • Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts-on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
  • 48G cables enable up to 48Gbps bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support including 8K video with HDR. The cable is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.
  • eARC supports the most advanced audio formats such as object-based audio, and enables advanced audio signal control capabilities including device auto-detect.
  • Game Mode VRR features variable refresh rate, which enables a 3D graphics processor to display the image at the moment it is rendered for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, and for reducing or eliminating lag, stutter, and frame tearing.

TV Size Guide - will expand

Although a jump of - say - 10" in screen size doesn't seem like a lot, it's a bit deceiving. Because screens are measured on the diagonal (e.g. a 55" TV is 55" diagonally, but the width is 47.9" and the height is 27.0"), a 10" increase will appear to be much more.

Let's take this example of a 55" TV vs. a 65" TV. The increase from 55" to 65" is an 18.2% increase in the diagonal, but an increase of 39.7% in screen area. From 55" to 75" results in an 86.0% increase in screen area. This is why TVs begin to get really expensive when they get really big.

Here's a picture to make it clearer:



Go here for more info.

CES 2017 Announcements
LG
Panasonic
Samsung
Sony
TCL / Sharp
Vizio

HDMI
- 1.0 -
- 1.4 -
- 2.0 -
- 2.1 - The new HDMI2.1 specification has just been announced and it contains some really good improvements over HDMI 2.0
Higher Video Resolutions support a range of higher resolutions and faster refresh rates including 8K60Hz and 4K120Hz for immersive viewing and smooth fast-action detail.
Dynamic HDR ensures every moment of a video is displayed at its ideal values for depth, detail, brightness, contrast, and wider color gamuts-on a scene-by-scene or even a frame-by-frame basis.
48G cables enable up to 48Gbps bandwidth for uncompressed HDMI 2.1 feature support including 8K video with HDR. The cable is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI Specification and can be used with existing HDMI devices.
eARC supports the most advanced audio formats such as object-based audio, and enables advanced audio signal control capabilities including device auto-detect.
Game Mode VRR features variable refresh rate, which enables a 3D graphics processor to display the image at the moment it is rendered for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, and for reducing or eliminating lag, stutter, and frame tearing.


TV Recommendations - will expand
rtings.com - Best TVs
rtings.com - Best 4K TV
rtings.com - Best TV for Gaming
Projector for Gaming Recommendations

Other Helpful Links - will expand
HDR thread - thread by NeoGAF's Cobalt Izuna
displaylag.com
Calibration hardware / software post (thanks III-V)
Cable management thread (thanks Marty Chinn)

Helpful Tips for New Buyers - will expand
- (12/8/2016) If possible, wait. CES 2017 - the world's biggest consumer electronics show - is in early January, and this is where effectively all TV announcements are made. New OLEDs, cheaper models, new tech...you name it, CES will have it.
- Be cognizant of where you're buying your TV from. Sometimes the best deal doesn't mean the best return policies, warranties, etc. Ask the folks here
- Don't be afraid to ask GAF. The regulars in here are incredibly knowledgeable, respectful AND helpful. Whether it's about a specific TV or a general TV question, don't hesitate.

How to break in your new TV - thanks holygeesus
- OLED - I would check the basics like uniformity - I know a lot of people swear by checking slides for banding etc, but I find it far more useful to look at your new panel with a completely white screen and check the image for tinting, which is one of my own personal niggles. The 2016 LG range is designed to be brighter at the left and right sides of the image to combat vignetting, so that is normal. However people should probably check for tinting, especially red which can be distracting.

I would also watch a lot of sport in the first few days. On panning shots, check for distinctive bands in the image as the camera moves across the field. This test, to me, is more important than checking slides for banding, as it's real world usage. I don't care if very specific test slides show mild bands as long as I don't see them during normal use, that is fine.

65" buyers in particular should be aware of vignetting, which is still an issue, albeit mitigated somewhat this generation. This is where the edge of the screen appears darker than the rest, and is very noticeable during dark scenes. As I say, LG did put in measures to combat this, but some sets still seem to suffer, so it is worth watching for.

Like any set, buy it from a retailer with a good returns policy and don't be afraid to return a set with any small issue, as if you notice something during the first few days of use, it is likely something that will annoy you every time you fire up your set, and for the money you are spending, you shouldn't put up with that.

Saying all that, if you do have any of the issues mentioned, it is worth running a manual compensation cycle before returning, as certain issues do seem to improve over time. Bands in particular.
Last edited by BumRush; 01-09-2017 at 02:40 PM.
Kyoufu
(12-09-2016, 12:41 AM)
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Thread title made me chuckle. Well done.

I recommend anyone looking to get a 4K TV by Christmas to just hold out a little longer and see what CES has to offer in January. Newer and better TVs of all price ranges should be available in the next 3-6 months.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
(12-09-2016, 12:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kyoufu

Thread title made me chuckle. Well done.

I recommend anyone looking to get a 4K TV by Christmas to just hold out a little longer and see what CES has to offer in January. Newer and better TVs of all price ranges should be available in the next 3-6 months.

and closeout prices on excellent 2016 LG OLEDs too!

(also, be sure to ask us about where you're buying from, lots of good deals online but some shady places. Cleveland Plasma is your best friend [but no return policy!])
Lexxism
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(12-09-2016, 12:46 AM)
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CES 2017 here we come!
lukeskymac
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(12-09-2016, 12:48 AM)
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What do you guys think about that insane IPS panel Panasonic recently announced? How long will it take for that tech to make its way into the market?
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 12:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by lukeskymac

What do you guys think about that insane IPS panel Panasonic recently announced? How long will it take for that tech to make its way into the market?

Not long, from what I gather it's essentially 2 LCDs , one color, one monochrome layered on top of each other to create better blacks.
cooldawn
Member
(12-09-2016, 12:51 AM)
Just what I need.

I'll be looking to upgrade when Gran Turismo Sport hits. I hope by then the market has settled down, the technology matured, the standards consistent across the board and people don't have to jump through hoops to get correctly optimised.

How viable is Dolby Vision going forward?
Kyoufu
(12-09-2016, 12:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by jstevenson

and closeout prices on excellent 2016 LG OLEDs too!

(also, be sure to ask us about where you're buying from, lots of good deals online but some shady places. Cleveland Plasma is your best friend [but no return policy!])

Yep, 2016 LG OLEDs will be hard to not recommend when they drop prices to clear stock.
Insane Metal
Dispensed Internet Salt
(12-09-2016, 12:54 AM)
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Nice! Will sub to this thread too. :)
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 12:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by cooldawn

Just what I need.

I'll be looking to upgrade when Gran Turismo Sport hits. I hope by then the market has settled down, the technology matured, the standards consistent across the board and people don't have to jump through hoops to get correctly optimised.

How viable is Dolby Vision going forward?

I don't think it matters too much from a gaming perspective, as HDR10 will get scene by scene and per frame metadata with the next HDMI revision, which will push Dolby Vision out of the picture as an expensive option.
RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(12-09-2016, 12:54 AM)
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Waiting for CES to see what I get next year. Hoping for at least some good FALD LEDs from companies other than Vizio. My dream is an affordable OLED but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Afrikan
Banned
(12-09-2016, 12:55 AM)
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from the other thread.

Originally Posted by holygeesus

Although capable, it wouldn't surprise me if LG hold back HLG support until their 2017 sets.

That's what some thought they would do with HDR in Game Mode.

really, reading alittle more about HLG and BBC... I don't see what the benefit would be for LG not make it exclusive to their 2017 sets. Also not sure when this standard would be used outside of Europe.....enough to have incentive to have it exclusive to the 2017 sets.

I mean, Dobly Vision seems to still be more advanced...and it is supported by LG in their 2016 sets.
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 12:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kyoufu

Yep, 2016 LG OLEDs will be hard to not recommend when they drop prices to clear stock.

Hard to recommend if you can't stomach 34ms of extra latency on everything you play.
jstevenson
Sailor Stevenson
(12-09-2016, 12:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by cooldawn


How viable is Dolby Vision going forward?

irrelevant gaming wise, but it's still the superior option for film/streaming right now, and until proven otherwise (even when HDR10 gets dynamic metadata)

HDR10 will close that gap but I think DV will be the premium option with the display mapping portion of it.

They'll sit side-by-side like DTS and Dolby Digital do.
Afrikan
Banned
(12-09-2016, 12:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by EvB

Hard to recommend if you can't stomach 34ms of extra latency on everything you play.

can't stomach?

of "extra"... lolololololl

look man, some folks are just better buying PC monitors if they are *concerned* about 34ms of "extra" latency.
HStallion
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(12-09-2016, 01:02 AM)
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I am really excited to see CES soon. If nothing else the current top of the line models should see some significant price drops in the months afterwards.
Jarnet87
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(12-09-2016, 01:03 AM)
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I'm hoping for a couple nice 40" models to be introduced at CES.
Dio
Banned
(12-09-2016, 01:03 AM)

Originally Posted by Afrikan

can't stomach?

of "extra"... lolololololl

look man, some folks are just better buying PC monitors if they are *concerned* about 34ms of "extra" latency.

Yeah, I'm waiting for 4k HDR PC monitors next year because of all that latency fucking up fighting games and rhythm-based games.
Peltz
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(12-09-2016, 01:04 AM)
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Subbed. I'm hoping to pick up a new OLED display sometime in 2017. LED just hasn't been doing it for me since my plasma died 1.5 years ago.
ElfArmy177
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(12-09-2016, 01:07 AM)
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So.... Return the ks8000 I just purchased? Lol
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 01:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Afrikan

can't stomach?

of "extra"... lolololololl

look man, some folks are just better buying PC monitors if they are *concerned* about 34ms of "extra" latency.

We had just reached a point where TVs could achieve as little 12ms of input and bamn. Suddenly 3 times that becomes ok.
BumRush
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(12-09-2016, 01:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Peltz

Subbed. I'm hoping to pick up a new OLED display sometime in 2017. LED just hasn't been doing it for me since my plasma died 1.5 years ago.

Unfortunately, you'll hear that exact same sentiment from many plasma owners. I have a 2010 Panny that blew my 2013 LED (Samsung, higher end) out of the water, picture-wise. I sold the LED and will grab an OLED after CES.
Kyoufu
(12-09-2016, 01:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by ElfArmy177

So.... Return the ks8000 I just purchased? Lol

KS8000 is a very good TV. If you're happy with it then there's no need to return it!
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 01:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Dio

Yeah, I'm waiting for 4k HDR PC monitors next year because of all that latency fucking up fighting games and rhythm-based games.

You'll be waiting a while if you want 10 bit colour and HDR, as LCD tech doesn't have the native contrast ratio and the ability to block out the backlight at high Nit levels.
The Beard
Member
(12-09-2016, 01:12 AM)

Originally Posted by EvB

You'll be waiting a while if you want 10 bit colour and HDR, as LCD tech doesn't have the native contrast ratio and the ability to block out the backlight at high Nit levels.

10 bit color and HDR already exist on LCD TVs though.
RowdyReverb
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(12-09-2016, 01:18 AM)
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I'm really looking forward to seeing those new displays from Panasonic with the supposedly terrific black levels. It's pretty much the only thing that makes me reluctant to upgrade from my plasma, and OLED remains beyond my price range
CrimsonEclipse
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(12-09-2016, 01:19 AM)
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Oooh, looking forward to this thread. Have a KS8000 I gotta return cause it's been problematic but been hoping that Microcenter would get them back in stock to exchange and they haven't. So thinking I'm just gonna see what new sets gonna cone, especially in the oled spectrum.
Kyoufu
(12-09-2016, 01:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Beard

I'm only interested in the OLED for watching movies and shows, especially movies. I don't play as often as I used to, but when I do sit down for a sesh, I'll be on for like 5 or 6 hours straight. I don't want to worry about image retention (not burn-in) from 6+ straight hours of having a hot-white HUD on the screen.

I put 71 hours into FFXV over 5 days, with 12-16 hour sessions on some days and I don't have any burn-in.

I hope some day we can move on from the burn-in/image retention concern, because it's silly in 2016.
HStallion
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(12-09-2016, 01:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by EvB

You'll be waiting a while if you want 10 bit colour and HDR, as LCD tech doesn't have the native contrast ratio and the ability to block out the backlight at high Nit levels.

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure Sony's Z9D TV series can do all of that. Its also nearly as impressive a set as LG's OLEDs.
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 01:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Beard

10 bit color and HDR already exist on LCD TVs though.

He was saying he was waiting for PC monitors for HDR, but as HDR10 in LCD tech essentially requires image processing, he is going to be waiting a while to get HDR that is lag free to the standards of current SDR panels.

Originally Posted by HStallion

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure Sony's Z9D TV series can do all of that. Its also nearly as impressive a set as LG's OLEDs.

Yep, TVs can definately display HDR, just not lag few right now due to the way that the image has to be analysed and produced.
Hopefully it'll be over quickly and the processors will scale up quickly to deal with 4k images and HDR backlight modulation better than they do right now.
Last edited by EvB; 12-09-2016 at 01:24 AM.
SliChillax
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(12-09-2016, 01:22 AM)
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I wish variable refresh rate would become a standard thing. Consoles would benefit so much from that
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 01:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by SliChillax

I wish variable refresh rate would become a standard thing. Consoles would benefit so much from that

Yeah I'd love that too
farmerboy
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(12-09-2016, 01:34 AM)
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Annddddd subbed. Next year is the year I feel everything comes together nicely from a standards veiwpoint.
georaldc
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(12-09-2016, 01:38 AM)
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Will I be blown away moving from our 55in w900a to a 65in ks9000 I ordered a couple weeks ago (and still waiting for it to arrive :( )? I really wanted to go with oled but man, 65 in ones are just way too pricey
BumRush
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(12-09-2016, 01:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by georaldc

Will I be blown away moving from our 55in w900a to a 65in ks9000 I ordered a couple weeks ago (and still waiting for it to arrive :( )? I really wanted to go with oled but man, 65 in ones are just way too pricey

You should have waited until CES if possible. When they announce the 2017 models (and especially if there is more competition from Sony, etc.), the 2016 models will almost assuredly come down.

Originally Posted by farmerboy

Annddddd subbed. Next year is the year I feel everything comes together nicely from a standards veiwpoint.

I agree. The future of TV is INCREDIBLY exciting...
The Beard
Member
(12-09-2016, 01:45 AM)

Originally Posted by Kyoufu

I put 71 hours into FFXV over 5 days, with 12-16 hour sessions on some days and I don't have any burn-in.

I hope some day we can move on from the burn-in/image retention concern, because it's silly in 2016.

It's not silly. That's exactly what I heard about plasmas before I bought mine. If I played 5 straight hours of BF1 on my VT60, I'd see the HUD for at least a day afterwards, maybe 2. I'll give OLED a chance to see if it's better than plasma in that regard, but from what I've heard from various owners so far, I'm not expecting it to be much better.

I'm talking about IR not burn in btw. I'm really anal about PQ when I'm watching movies. I don't want to see anything on the screen that shouldn't be there. I don't want to see a faint ghost image of #Discoverychanel in the upper right hand corner against a shot of a blue sky, it completely takes me out of what I'm watching.

Originally Posted by EvB

He was saying he was waiting for PC monitors for HDR, but as HDR10 in LCD tech essentially requires image processing, he is going to be waiting a while to get HDR that is lag free to the standards of current SDR panels.



Yep, TVs can definately display HDR, just not lag few right now due to the way that the image has to be analysed and produced.
Hopefully it'll be over quickly and the processors will scale up quickly to deal with 4k images and HDR backlight modulation better than they do right now.

Oh, gotcha. LCD TVs aren't able to achieve those things naturally, they have to rely on software tricks to get good contrast ratios.
EvB
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(12-09-2016, 01:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Beard

Oh, gotcha. LCD TVs aren't able to achieve those things naturally, they have to rely on software tricks to get good contrast ratios.

Almost :)

They have to rely on a 2nd piece of hardware, driven by software (the backlights)
Yappadappadu
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(12-09-2016, 02:25 AM)
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Good thread title.

I would also add the link to the input lag database:
http://www.displaylag.com/

Still waiting for that HDR Game mode FW update in Europe.
Last edited by Yappadappadu; 12-09-2016 at 02:27 AM.
HStallion
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(12-09-2016, 03:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by EvB

Yep, TVs can definately display HDR, just not lag few right now due to the way that the image has to be analysed and produced.
Hopefully it'll be over quickly and the processors will scale up quickly to deal with 4k images and HDR backlight modulation better than they do right now.

I think its because Sony cheaped out on the chipset which doesn't make sense for their high end model that costs over $4000 but I guess you have to cut corners somewhere. That and I don't know if they were considering the gaming angle when making that set. Hopefully its a bigger consideration for next years line up.
Brandon F
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(12-09-2016, 03:09 AM)
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I'll be taking my Kuro Plasma to my grave...
spannicus
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(12-09-2016, 03:24 AM)
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Awesome thread! Thanks for the shout out. Will help out if needed.
Also there are a few folks who game on projectors. You can throw this in if you wish.
http://www.consumertop.com/best-projector-for-gaming/
Last edited by spannicus; 12-09-2016 at 04:00 AM.
DSix
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(12-09-2016, 03:50 AM)
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Cheap OLED still lies hidden in the sleep.
BumRush
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(12-09-2016, 04:06 AM)
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Made some progress with the OP, but will continue tomorrow. Thanks for your help, all.

Originally Posted by spannicus

Awesome thread! Thanks for the shout out. Will help out if needed.
Also there are a few folks who game on projectors. You can throw this in if you wish.
http://www.consumertop.com/best-projector-for-gaming/

I totally forgot about projectors. Added your link to the resources section (thank you!)
Kyoufu
(12-09-2016, 04:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Beard

It's not silly. That's exactly what I heard about plasmas before I bought mine. If I played 5 straight hours of BF1 on my VT60, I'd see the HUD for at least a day afterwards, maybe 2. I'll give OLED a chance to see if it's better than plasma in that regard, but from what I've heard from various owners so far, I'm not expecting it to be much better.

I'm talking about IR not burn in btw. I'm really anal about PQ when I'm watching movies. I don't want to see anything on the screen that shouldn't be there. I don't want to see a faint ghost image of #Discoverychanel in the upper right hand corner against a shot of a blue sky, it completely takes me out of what I'm watching.

But you're forgetting that these OLED panels run automatic cleanup cycles to get rid of anything that shouldn't be there. There's a reason why burn-in/IR isn't a major concern on the internet, because the issue isn't prevalent. It's a non-issue.

What you'll hear about are cases of vertical banding/vignetting affecting some panels, not your BF1 HUD being visible during a movie. :P
SmoothRunningGun
Member
(12-09-2016, 04:10 AM)
That chart is shit. Plasma's claim to fame is the image looks better than every other tech except oled.
spannicus
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(12-09-2016, 04:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by BumRush

Made some progress with the OP, but will continue tomorrow. Thanks for your help, all.



I totally forgot about projectors. Added your link to the resources section (thank you!)

Youre welcome let me know if you need anything else.
Izuna
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(12-09-2016, 04:13 AM)
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IPS or QLED

No money for anything else from me (not that I can afford an upgrade)

I want to throw this TN panel in the trash every day.
Beer Monkey
Member
(12-09-2016, 04:17 AM)

Originally Posted by SmoothRunningGun

That chart is shit. Plasma's claim to fame is the image looks better than every other tech except oled.

Yeah, delete that shit.

2008 Kuro owner here.
BumRush
Member
(12-09-2016, 04:20 AM)
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I think the plasma "claim to fame" thing is written like that because you can't grab a new one any more. All of us plasma owners know how good things were...
deadlast
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(12-09-2016, 04:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Cobalt Izuna

I want to throw this TN panel in the trash every day.

HAHAHAHA I know that pain. I'm looking at an IPS now.

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