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MilkyJoe
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(04-20-2017, 03:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cartho

I did make this point.



I take your point on Scorpio being able to CB as well, though MS are clearly trying to push for as many native 4k titles as they can.

I think personally I'd rather devs focused on a good quality checkerboarding solution and then pushed the bells and whistles. I've seen Horizon on a 4k TV and to me that's definitely coming into the "good enough" camp when it comes to IQ. Now if they used future power upgrades to stick at that 4k CB image quality but massively improved the size, physics and overall interactivity in the world then that would be a massive winner in my eyes.

The thread falls down a bit here, because there is no mandate for Scorpio games to run at 4 K so what you are going to mostly see is "more games" running at native 4K, but only where possible or sensible, to do so. I'm sure MS don't want to have their games look like shit compared to the competition, just to keep a steady 4K/30.

I also believe that MS have mandated that you will be able to use any output setting regardless of your screen resolution. eg 1080 high on a 1080 screen, 1080 high on a 4K, 4K on a 1080 (for supersampling) etc.. So it won't be 4K/medium vs 4K CB/high across the board.

Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

1080p Ultra, please.

Yep, this chasing 4K is just plain daft. It's like chasing 1080 when 720 sets were the norm.
Last edited by MilkyJoe; 04-20-2017 at 03:11 PM.
eso76
(04-20-2017, 03:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

1080p Ultra, please.

This.
Samurai G0SU
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(04-20-2017, 03:09 PM)
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nvm
Last edited by Samurai G0SU; 04-20-2017 at 03:14 PM.
xenorevlis
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(04-20-2017, 03:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cartho

I did make this point.

Now if they used future power upgrades to stick at that 4k CB image quality but massively improved the size, physics and overall interactivity in the world then that would be a massive winner in my eyes.

My first point was that there are several approaches to the 4K render, and checkerboard is only one of them. Some games still just upscale, or do dynamic resolution.

As per the overall interactivity, I think we are getting some really great stuff but it will take a whole lot more CPU power than both Scorpio and the Pro have under their belt, to make a fully fleshed out super-interactive open world. In the case of Microsoft, they have been working on cloud-computing as their attempt to solve this and hopefully Crackdown 3 makes good use of it in the end. I'll likely get it for PC, as I'm a fan of the originals :D
laxu
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(04-20-2017, 03:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by geordiemp

Yup, for me its frame rate, frame rate and frame rate.

Having a locked 30 or 60 is top of the bill, on all the pro enabled games I have played.... if you asked me if Game X is native 4K or 1800 checkerboard on my 55 inch 4K set I would have to google it as you just cannot tell

When you sit 8 ft away, at 55 inches & 4K, everything looks great above 1440 it does not matter unless your on a close monitor or taking still shots to analyse on a close monitor.

Its 2017 and we have already massively hit a visual limit of diminishing returns on 4K tv sets for normal living room viewing distances IMO

I have to agree. Even playing on a PC at native 4K on ultra settings, in motion it can be hard to tell the difference. I'm pretty happy with the image quality on the PS4 Pro too.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
(04-20-2017, 03:11 PM)
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I am always for better quality at lower resolutions on consoles, cause then on PCs I can bump the resolution if I want. Can't improve graphics that way 1 to 1.
Space_nut
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(04-20-2017, 03:13 PM)
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Oh man Crackdown 3 is going to be insane visually. That destruction is remarkable
Cartho
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(04-20-2017, 03:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Samurai G0SU

we dont even have the scorpio out and any number of games to confirm any type of resolution output - yet we get people spouting their theoretical guesses as fact because of some numbers. the fucking downplay is astonishing. i knew i shouldnt have came into this thread, just like any other xbox/ms/scorpio thread these days. do people just love to shit on others enjoyment/excitement?

This is a kind of aggressive response. There has hardly been any mention of Xbox Vs PS4 Pro in any kind of fanboy war in this thread. People are merely discussing a preference - 4k native images vs checkerboarding to 4k and using any extra power on higher framerates / more effects. If a reasonable discussion such as the one going on in this thread troubles you so much then maybe you should have a cup of tea and calm down a little!

Back on topic:

I would love the option for a 1080p60 mode, or a 1080p30 ultra mode too. More options is good and I think the best thing to come out of these mid gen refreshes will be devs giving console players proper options for how they want the game to look / run.

For me my preference would probably go: 4k native 60 (obviously!) > 1080p60 > 4k checkerboard 60 > 1080p ultra 30 > 4k native 30
Last edited by Cartho; 04-20-2017 at 03:17 PM.
Samurai G0SU
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(04-20-2017, 03:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cartho

This is a kind of aggressive response. There has hardly been any mention of Xbox Vs PS4 Pro in any kind of fanboy war in this thread. People are merely discussing a preference - 4k native images vs checkerboarding to 4k and using any extra power on higher framerates / more effects. If a reasonable discussion such as the one going on in this thread troubles you so much then maybe you should have a cup of tea and calm down a little!

yeah i just realized i wasnt in that scorpio thread LOL my bad! HAHA
funkystudent
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(04-20-2017, 03:16 PM)
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The one with the better framerate.


Or ultra 1080p. Authoring your game around the small fraction of people with 4k TVs seems a little daft. It's completely different then sub native 1080p was. People hadie 10 years to grab HD TVs.
Cartho
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(04-20-2017, 03:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Samurai G0SU

yeah i just realized i wasnt in that scorpio thread LOL my bad! HAHA

No worries! I did read it and think "erm...."
Wonko_C
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(04-20-2017, 03:20 PM)
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I understand the theory (at least I think I do), but haven't seen it in person myself, but I think Resident Evil 7 PC does something similar, only it's interlaced rendering instead, and when I use it makes my framerate keep 60fps on my low end PC and I have a hard time noticing the diference, so yes I'd choose CB over native.
camac002
Member
(04-20-2017, 03:22 PM)

Originally Posted by SlimySnake

I played TLOU on my Pro last night for the first time and wanted to create this thread. Native 4k is just so much more clearer and sharper than checkerboard it's worth the downgrade in graphics.

I'll have to disagree and go the other way. Have my PC and PS4pro into the same tv, and flicking between native 4k pc games and then the checkboarded games, obviously there's some image quality loss but I'm pretty happy with the checkerboard trade-off. But I'm even pretty happy with the way 1440p Uncharted looks on this 4k tv so maybe my standards are easing as I get older.

Originally Posted by geordiemp

When you sit 8 ft away, at 55 inches & 4K, everything looks great above 1440 it does not matter unless your on a close monitor or taking still shots to analyse on a close monitor.

This is more or less how I feel at this point in time at least.
Last edited by camac002; 04-20-2017 at 03:25 PM.
Dee Dah Dave
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(04-20-2017, 03:23 PM)
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Problem is it's a question and hypothesis which is unlikely to happen, except for maybe a rare occurrence.

A better and more likely one would be, which do you prefer?-

1 - Identical graphics with better resolution, or prefer worse resolution

2 - Maybe better graphics AND resolution on Scorpio. Particularly higher rez textures.

We won't know the general outcomes until we have a good amount of samples after release, but I would predict the above 2 examples are more likely than the Pro having better graphics only at a weaker resolution. For comparable multiplat games that is.
LordBaztion
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(04-20-2017, 03:24 PM)
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I preffer 1080 at ultra settings and I expect that option to be supported on Scorpio aswell, hopefully with better results.
prag16
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(04-20-2017, 03:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

1080p Ultra, please.

.
MaDKaT
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(04-20-2017, 03:34 PM)
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Even on my 4k set, I generally shoot for 1080 ultra and scale up from there. Basically whatever res that gives me all the bells and whistles at a stable 60 on my PC. Would be the same for consoles. I would rather have High/Ultra 1080 than med 4k.
Liabe Brave
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(04-20-2017, 03:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by SlimySnake

The fact that TLOU, Resogun, MLB:17,and Division are native 4k shows PS4 is capable of doing native 4k....

Just a small point of fact, The Division isn't native 4K on Pro.
EventHorizon
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(04-20-2017, 03:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by MilkyJoe

The thread falls down a bit here, because there is no mandate for Scorpio games to run at 4 K so what you are going to mostly see is "more games" running at native 4K, but only where possible or sensible, to do so. I'm sure MS don't want to have their games look like shit compared to the competition, just to keep a steady 4K/30.

This is true, but Microsoft has gone out of its way to say Scorpio was fine tuned to hit its performance targets. That includes its desire to hit native 4K. That means some of the 4K vs checkerboarding tradeoffs are locked in the hardware. Optimizing Scorpio for checkerboarding instead of for native 4K would lead to different design decisions. For example, if native 4K wasn't needed, Scorpio might not need 12GB of memory and could instead use the savings elsewhere in its design or be able to reduce the price.

This isn't a PlayStation Pro vs Scorpio argument, but a Scorpio designed for native 4K vs checkerboarded 4K argument.
ViolentP
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(04-20-2017, 03:55 PM)
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Whichever provides better framerate.
00ich
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(04-20-2017, 03:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cartho

Therefore, the question is going to be: Checkerboard 4k Vs native? Obviously native will be a sharper image, there is absolutely no denying this. How much more demanding is native 4k than CB 4k, however? Is the difference in image quality worth the performance loss?

There's a Frostbite presentation on checkerboarding
http://www.frostbite.com/2017/03/4k-...ect-andromeda/

It says they saved (on the PS4 Pro) roughly 33% in Mass Effect Andromeda (30 fps title) and 25% in Battlefield 1 (60 fps). This was in both cases for 1800p dynamic resolution titles, not full 4k though.

I'd expect Scorpio to do the same in 4k.
3200x1800 = 5.7 Million Pixels, 38402160 8,3 Million Pixels
That's 45% more Pixels - about the performance advantage Scorpio has over PS4 Pro.
Last edited by 00ich; 04-20-2017 at 04:00 PM.
Pagusas
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(04-20-2017, 03:56 PM)
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I wish we'd see the technique find a footing in the PC space, even with my new 1080ti, I'd like it to have as long a life as possible, I imagine it wont be able to do Cyberpunk at 4k/60, but i bet it would do it if cherboard rendering was available.
Micerider
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(04-20-2017, 04:00 PM)
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Checkerboard anytime (except maybe for close sitting on 75 inches screen, but it's ridiculously exceptional scenario). Horizon convinced me (and I'd like to have that option for other machines too, including PC)
Space_nut
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(04-20-2017, 04:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by EventHorizon

This is true, but Microsoft has gone out of its way to say Scorpio was fine tuned to hit its performance targets. That includes its desire to hit native 4K. That means some of the 4K vs checkerboarding tradeoffs are locked in the hardware. Optimizing Scorpio for checkerboarding instead of for native 4K would lead to different design decisions. For example, if native 4K wasn't needed, Scorpio might not need 12GB of memory and could instead use the savings elsewhere in its design or be able to reduce the price.

This isn't a PlayStation Pro vs Scorpio argument, but a Scorpio designed for native 4K vs checkerboarded 4K argument.

To do 4k res 12GB of ram isn't related to that. There is no hardware lock where devs can only do 4k on Scorpio. They have hardware as well for checkerboard same as pro. It's all up to the devs. The 12GB of ram was done for increased asset quality not to render a game in 4k
Samurai G0SU
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(04-20-2017, 04:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Space_nut

To do 4k res 12GB of ram isn't related to that. There is no hardware lock where devs can only do 4k on Scorpio. They have hardware as well for checkerboard same as pro. It's all up to the devs. The 12GB of ram was done for increased asset quality not to render a game in 4k

its going to look might fine too!
Head.spawn
Junior Member
(04-20-2017, 05:02 PM)
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I'll take the native 4k, with 4k textures, and 16xAF with room to spare.

But seriously, the way the title is framed is clearly skewed to lead you to pick one over the other and seems like a bit obvious bait. Maybe I'm just reading the forum wrong, but lately it seems like people are in downplay mode.
Liabe Brave
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(04-21-2017, 06:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Head.spawn

I'll take the native 4k, with 4k textures, and 16xAF with room to spare.

Just a small point of fact, there was no room to spare in the Forza demo when it was cranked most of the way up.
Ploid 3.0
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(04-21-2017, 06:33 AM)
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As I said in another thread about explaining what Checkerboard is in as few words as possible, I would choose checkerboard with prettier effects and settings. I would do that on PC too, and I have done that. It's all about getting the most bang for your buck. Cut corners where you can, and I hope AMD adds checkerboard to the Crimson drivers settings. Currently messing with the Chill feature and I want it available on all games.
Sotha_Sil
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(04-21-2017, 06:35 AM)
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In theory, if I had a higher resolution monitor, I would probably go with CB 4k for the better performance. I've not seen it in action, so it's hard to say.
Jaguar Victory
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(04-21-2017, 06:45 AM)
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I mean why wouldn't anyone prefer naive 4K? Less aliasing, cleaner image. I'm fine with checkerboard too though if the developer feels like is the best choice for them.
Crayon
(04-21-2017, 06:47 AM)
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I'm not sure I could tell checkerboard from 4k in a normal gaming situation.
Dr. Black Jack
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(04-21-2017, 07:09 AM)
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Once there's an affordable 4K set that isn't shit for gaming we'll talk. Digital displays are still garbage.
pretty done
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(04-21-2017, 07:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Interfectum

1080p Ultra settings. :)

720p Extreme settings. :)

(native 4K duh)
Jtrizzy
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(04-21-2017, 07:23 AM)
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1080p60 is all I want.
SHAFT MASTER
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(04-21-2017, 07:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by pretty done

720p Extreme settings. :)

(native 4K duh)

640x480, post ultra, at 900fps
Nessus
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(04-21-2017, 07:31 AM)
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I was a late adopter for 1080p media (I had an HDTV but upscaled DVDs already looked good enough compared to my old TV) and I have a feeling I'll be similarly late in upgrading to 4K.

Personally I'd much rather the extra processing power be used to create better 1080p graphics or higher framerates.

That said, I always pick higher resolution textures, lighting, and graphical effects over higher display resolution or AA so I guess I'd prefer checkerboard.
Yoshi
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(04-21-2017, 07:37 AM)
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480i, perfectly locked 60fps and then the highest quality setting that can still safely guarantee that performance and the option to plug it into my SDTV. Unless it's Switch, then 720p, because that's the screen resolution.
Sami+
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(04-21-2017, 07:43 AM)
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I can't really see the difference yet, since I guess I haven't trained myself to. Don't have a 4K TV yet, so I'd say checkerboarding.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(04-21-2017, 07:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by orioto

As somoene (but that's just me) who thinks better iq doesn't mean better graphics, i'm absolutely against that need for native 4k, cause it guaranties next gen will have to output every game like that, and it has to be noted how much resolution upgrade diminishes massively the actual graphic boost for a new gen.

PS5 will have 4 times the resolution of the vanilla PS4. That also means it will be 4 times (maybe less i don't know exactly) less able to output better geometry, light, etc.. actual graphic upgrades. That's what people call diminishing return when a gen starts.

Every new 3D gen has had a large bump in average resolution.
Sony
Banned
(04-21-2017, 07:54 AM)
The delta between high and medium settings differs per game. This question is very black and white. It doesn't work like that...
supernormal
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(04-21-2017, 07:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by mlclmtckr

1080p Ultra, please.

This. I don't care about resolution, give me actual graphics. If you got the power to do proper real time global illumination with reflections, or soft body physics or whatever, use it for that. It would be really disappointing to have the next 10 years of games look exactly like they do now with just better IQ.
Collingwood
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(04-21-2017, 07:56 AM)
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As someone who has never cared about resolution and thinks Ryse is one of the best looking games this gen, I'm fine with checkerboard at high settings.

I'm on record as saying that this gen, I would have been happy with last gen graphics at 1080/60 full AA the way we get with most remasters.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(04-21-2017, 07:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by supernormal

This. I don't care about resolution, give me actual graphics. If you got the power to do proper real time global illumination with reflections, or soft body physics or whatever, use it for that. It would be really disappointing to have the next 10 years of games look exactly like they do now with just better IQ.

There's something like that in Rise of the Tomb Raider on PS4 Pro called "enriched" mode and it looks like shit compared to the checkerboard mode, especially in motion, even on a 1080p TV.
JustinJ004
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(04-21-2017, 07:58 AM)
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Speaking as a 4K OLED owner I would say Horizon, Uncharted, Watchdogs 2, Call of Duty, Battlefield 1 etc look as sharp and clean as any native games I've played including AC Ezio, PES, FIFA on the Pro and many more on PC so I think checkerboarding is a great solution personally.

I sit on the sofa around 7 feet away from the screen and don't see any artifacting at all to be honest although I'm sure it's there somewhere and given the choice I'd obviously go native if performance doesn't take a hit.

I'll buy a Scorpio day one but I'm not expecting it to be a massive jump over the Pro in any way but it will be a big upgrade from the standard Xbox One without doubt which is exactly what I want it for.
Last edited by JustinJ004; 04-21-2017 at 08:03 AM.
pottuvoi
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(04-21-2017, 08:10 AM)
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I'm all for improved quality which temporal and/or spatially decoupled shading allows. (Even for 1080p output)

IE.
Shading distant scenery once in a while and more important pieces 30fps in texture space , should give some serious advantages. (Even more so in VR.)
Last edited by pottuvoi; 04-21-2017 at 08:32 AM.
FZW
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(04-21-2017, 08:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by Liabe Brave

Just a small point of fact, there was no room to spare in the Forza demo when it was cranked most of the way up.


He didnt say that tho, he said 4k native, 4k textures and 16xAF with room to spare (which is exactly what was happening in the demo)

your comment seems pretty unnecessary.
witchedwiz
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(04-21-2017, 08:27 AM)
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Rather then worrying about 4K, let's first get every damn game @ 1080p rock solid with all blown bell and whispers (aa, etc..)..
Until this is a given for every single game, 4K should not be a concern, let alone a priority..
How many gorgeous games on PS4 are plagued by sub60 or flacky fps count?
Caayn
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(04-21-2017, 08:31 AM)
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Dynamic resolution + high performance.

Higher settings + resolution(/checkerboard) is nice but it's worthless when it's blurred due to motion.

Originally Posted by Liabe Brave

Just a small point of fact, there was no room to spare in the Forza demo when it was cranked most of the way up.

You seem pretty upset at the Forza demo.
Last edited by Caayn; 04-21-2017 at 10:07 AM.
valkyre
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(04-21-2017, 09:47 AM)
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I am of the opinion that if the result is so good that you have to look hard or even moderately for the difference between checkerboarding and native 4k, then native 4k is nothing but a waste of resources.

If a PC game offered me the option of native 4K, vs checkerboarding with extra gfx bells and whistels, then I would never ever use native 4K.

Dynamic resolutions and upscaling techniques are the future. "Native" looks more and more like bragging rights rather than an actual worthwhile option.
LCGeek
formerly sane
(04-21-2017, 09:55 AM)
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I'm a mildly enthusiast spec gamer after I find a platform I like. If I have the option to get the best and it's within reason I go for it.

I will never settle on resolution. I say this growing up with black and green or monochrome screens displaying next to nothing in pixel count. Non native on fixed pixel screens is abomination that no one should ever be stuck with. Why on earth do some of you gamers claim to be IQ whores and then use checkerboard on TV screen or shitty pc display, both are shit for IQ. If you're not an IQ whore be my guest and ignore the last wannabe sentence I wrote. Simple reasoning is this. What a game renders at get diluted using crap displays or worse some scaling technology. We make fun of those who use non hdtv cables on hdtv and want hdtv, yet it literally is the same thing to do what I mentioned.

If this is preference based than my money needs aren't a concern and there's no reason for me to need checkerboard with high settings.

I would prefer a blowjob from my 5 ideal lobotomized sex slaves.
I would prefer dab and blunts all day.
I would prefer to not get taxed ever.
See where this is going.

valkyre wrong it's like comparing 30fps to 60fps titles. Titles at higher fps rate still are pushing out a ton of data even if the results may not seem like it. Whose bragging anyways we have gaffer with SLI 1080 and there are no shortage of places showing people with titans in a similar config. At that point you could downsample and still have room to spare. Checkboard is garbage dynamic resolution is like smart calling to me but for pixels.It's also gonna be required as long as we have fixed pixel displays instead of stuff like plasma or crt.
Last edited by LCGeek; 04-21-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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