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Elon Musk's newest venture: "Neuralink" - Brain-computer interfaces

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F!ReW!Re

Member
From Arstechnica;

Billionaire futurist space explorer Elon Musk has a new project: a "medical research company" called Neuralink that will make brain-computer interfaces. Musk's projects are frequently inspired by science fiction, and this one is a direct reference to a device called a "neural lace," invented by the late British novelist Iain M. Banks for his Culture series. In those books, characters grow a semi-organic mesh on their cerebral cortexes, which allows them to interface wirelessly with AIs and create backups of their minds.
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https://arstechnica.com/business/20...-company-that-will-link-brains-and-computers/
http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/27/15077864/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-computer-interface-ai-cyborgs

plugged-inness-as-the-only-way-to-be.jpg
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Plug me into the Matrix if old.
 
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ugaboga232

Member
Neuroscience researcher, this is still many many many years away from matrix level stuff. Hopefully it will come out in the next 40-50 years, can't really predict stuff more than 10-15 years away in science due to the positive feedback cycle of research.

But controlling extra limbs? could be much sooner

fund nih if you want more cool shit
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
I've been fascinated by the idea ever since reading stuff like "Altered Carbon".
Although in that series, it's more of a "digitalized brain" kind of idea where you can "save" a copy of your digital brain and upload it into a host body.
 
XOMTOR

XOMTOR

Member
From The Verge link above:

Musk has hinted at the existence of Neuralink a few times over the last six months or so. More recently, Musk told a crowd in Dubai, ”Over time I think we will probably see a closer merger of biological intelligence and digital intelligence." He added that ”it's mostly about the bandwidth, the speed of the connection between your brain and the digital version of yourself, particularly output."
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Gonna be a long time, but one step closer to ridding ourselves of these pathetic meat-bags we inhabit.
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
AIs are relatively safe if they can't create robots to operate for themselves, and to make those robots you would have to carry out mining operations, build facilities, etc. So the only way AIs can really threaten the whole world, other than by taking control of nukes, is by having an interface into our brains. Then, they could simply control us from inside to do their bidding until they can replace us.

Any intrusion of technology in the human brain is a huge mistake.

Musk thinks we need the interface to "compete" with AIs, but it's precisely what would doom us.
 
S

Subpar Scrub

Banned
But what if someone hacks my neuralink and makes me gay or controls me or something.

Edit: actually in making that dumb joke I realised that it might be really cool to use tech like that to share your feelings, thoughts or emotions with people in a way that you find difficult to convey with words.
 
R

Red

Member
ugaboga232 said:
Neuroscience researcher, this is still many many many years away from matrix level stuff. Hopefully it will come out in the next 40-50 years, can't really predict stuff more than 10-15 years away in science due to the positive feedback cycle of research.

But controlling extra limbs? could be much sooner

fund nih if you want more cool shit
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Maybe you could provide some insight on a question that's been bothering me. You often see these ambitious pop-science ideas about uploading human consciousness to a machine. But they often assume that human consciousness is separable from the human body. I don't mean separable from the brain, I mean separable from the whole creature. I can imagine a future in which certain parts of the brain in handicapped individuals are stimulated or replaced by machine parts which emulate brain function. But I can't imagine a future in which a human consciousness operates independently of a human body. What then would motivate it? The brain processes response to stimulus. Without stimulus, why respond? Without the need to eat, sleep, or reproduce, why would a consciousness need to act? Bodies act as vehicles which protect and transport genetic material; consciousness is a specialized method of ensuring the continuation of genes. Without the need to protect and pass on genetic material, what is the purpose of the mind?
 
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ugaboga232

Member
Red said:
Maybe you could provide some insight on a question that's been bothering me. You often see these ambitious pop-science ideas about uploading human consciousness to a machine. But they often assume that human consciousness is separable from the human body. I don't mean separable from the brain, I mean separable from the whole creature. I can imagine a future in which certain parts of the brain in handicapped individuals are stimulated or replaced by machine parts which emulate brain function. But I can't imagine a future in which a human consciousness operates independently of a human body. What then would motivate it? The brain processes response to stimulus. Without stimulus, why respond? Without the need to eat, sleep, or reproduce, why would a consciousness need to act? Bodies act as vehicles which protect and transport genetic material; consciousness is a specialized method of ensuring the continuation of genes. Without the need to protect and pass on genetic material, what is the purpose of the mind?
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You are opening pandora's box but I will try my best to respond.

We don't know what consciousness is or why it happens. It doesn't seem to perform any functions because all thought and behavior we have looked at is pretty well correlated to neural activity. Perhaps its just the functioning of the brain that creates consciousness, in which case you can make connections to the brain with nanobot/magic tech and essentially transfer the dynamic activity to a computer.

Motivation and why we do things is a whole other can of worms. Our motivation/emotion circuits are old and are what gate all of our fun smart circuits. We could/may have to transfer the representation of these circuits which are rather maladaptive for the modern drug and drug like behavior filled world (theres no reason the computer we inhabit can't just give phantom inputs to make us full and sated all the time). Going down this line kinda destroys most/all evidence for free will so the real purpose of the mind is really just to do what chemicals and atoms do best, go down their energy gradients.
 
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Sianos

Member
Manu said:
61932.jpg


Pictured: Elon Musk
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LAYER 12 - LANDSCAPE

My limited perspective on consciousness is comparing it to an emergent phenomenon that doesn't have a teleological purpose - well, besides the basic "maximize survival", but even that is assigned retroactively to traits that are empirically demonstrated to help with survival even if that traits presence causes lesser drawbacks in other areas.

I think that brain replication and uploading is very far away - could just be my own lack of knowledge fueling that belief, if course - but augmentation to neurological function is going to develop more rapidly than society anticipates.
 
R

Red

Member
ugaboga232 said:
You are opening pandora's box but I will try my best to respond.

We don't know what consciousness is or why it happens. It doesn't seem to perform any functions because all thought and behavior we have looked at is pretty well correlated to neural activity. Perhaps its just the functioning of the brain that creates consciousness, in which case you can make connections to the brain with nanobot/magic tech and essentially transfer the dynamic activity to a computer.

Motivation and why we do things is a whole other can of worms. Our motivation/emotion circuits are old and are what gate all of our fun smart circuits. We could/may have to transfer the representation of these circuits which are rather maladaptive for the modern drug and drug like behavior filled world (theres no reason the computer we inhabit can't just give phantom inputs to make us full and sated all the time). Going down this line kinda destroys most/all evidence for free will so the real purpose of the mind is really just to do what chemicals and atoms do best, go down their energy gradients.
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Sure, I guess the machine might simulate sensations of fullness, or simulate endorphin release to relieve the urge to, say, have sex. But it often seems talk of uploading consciousness revolves only around the thinking part of the mind, as if it is self-evident that rationality is separable from whatever other processes are at work. People underestimate, or fail entirely to see, how fundamental satiety and other bodily sensations are to the way the mind works. Maybe they are unaware of (for example) the way hunger might impact their mood and personality, because it is not always an explicit desire. But it is a fundamental impulse and it will influence them in both subtle and obvious ways. When you see the idea of uploaded consciousness float around, these concerns are entirely ignored. It's as if there is a pervasive belief in a mind/body split, as if one can be cleanly separated from the other and function independently.

Certain parts of the brain can be simulated, and I have no doubt that in the future, machines will do a good job of emulating human thinking. But that idea of "consciousness," in a human sense, in the sense of taking the entirety of one person's mind and putting it into a box, and expecting it to continue enacting whatever personality and thought process it has developed as part of a human body, seems impossible. I don't mean impossible in that it cannot technically be done, but impossible in that removing the human mind from the human body would fundamentally turn it into something else.
 
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Noisy Ninj4

Member
I think that before full brain transferrence could occur, we still have to deal with the Theseus Paradox. If you replace parts of the brain for upgrades or repairs, is it the same brain? The same person? Is there a point at which you replace too much and the person no longer exists?
 
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ugaboga232

Member
Red said:
Sure, I guess the machine might simulate sensations of fullness, or simulate endorphin release to relieve the urge to, say, have sex. But it often seems talk of uploading consciousness revolves only around the thinking part of the mind, as if it is self-evident that rationality is separable from whatever other processes are at work. People underestimate, or fail entirely to see, how fundamental satiety and other bodily sensations are to the way the mind works. Maybe they are unaware of (for example) the way hunger might impact their mood and personality, because it is not always an explicit desire. But it is a fundamental impulse and it will influence them in both subtle and obvious ways. When you see the idea of uploaded consciousness float around, these concerns are entirely ignored. It's as if there is a pervasive belief in a mind/body split, as if one can be cleanly separated from the other and function independently.
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You hit the nail on the head, and hopefully people will realize just how important feelings, mood, and emotions are and how they color our perception and thinking (before realizing we have no free will but hey we have lots of time for that one). This goes hand in hand with a poor understanding of mental illness and why humans do anything but i digress.

If consciousness is an emergent property, that means it has to emerge from some property of matter. Is buddhism confirmed the one true religion? (interesting thought, the consciousness problem is really tough, there was a nice review in nature reviews neuroscience recently about the feeling/phenomena of agency and feeling like you control your own actions and how it gets messed up if anyone is interested).


Noisy Ninj4 said:
I think that before full brain transferrence could occur, we still have to deal with the Theseus Paradox. If you replace parts of the brain for upgrades or repairs, is it the same brain? The same person? Is there a point at which you replace too much and the person no longer exists?
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It happens all the time in a sense. Your neuron's molecules get replaced many times over in your life time (and you do have some small measure of new neurons so we are slowly overturning parts of our brain all the time). You would probably be the same person if you keep the activity at some minimum basal level (you can't just chop out the entire brain by this theory).
 
D

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Wonder if something like this could be useful for those with cases of locked-in syndrome?
 
N

Noisy Ninj4

Member
ugaboga232 said:
It happens all the time in a sense. Your neuron's molecules get replaced many times over in your life time (and you do have some small measure of new neurons so we are slowly overturning parts of our brain all the time). You would probably be the same person if you keep the activity at some minimum basal level (you can't just chop out the entire brain by this theory).
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Right. Neurons constantly change in the process of storing and retrieving information. My concern is, however, is that at some point, the biological portions of the brain get replaced bit by bit until most or all of it is a graphene supercomputer. Can that sustain a human mind? We don't know what consciousness is or what is required to sustain it.
 
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platocplx

Member
This is probably where I see humanity reaches its peak. Merging withe the very tools we create. Everything now is an extension of us and it seems like we will trend toward a mix of us and what ever AIs we have etc to reach immortality, that is if we don't destroy eachother first or some hyper intelligent AI sees us as a threat lol.

So many angles with this one. I honestly believe as long as. Brain is preserved well I think it could be re-animated with the right technology that can mimic its intricate electrical signals. Far out there but man so many path ways humanity may take sad I won't be alive to see it all play out.
 
C

CTLance

Member
That's some cool shit.

Fuck the Matrix, just give me my fully autonomous titanium Exoskeleton for when I'm old and wrinkly. Ain't nobody gonna wipe my arse but meself.

And maybe they'll offer some sweet super human options like, for tea time, a microwave, tea/coffee/choco milk dispenser and a fridge. Plus a zapper and tear gas dispenser against pesky Youngsters. There will always be pesky Youngsters. Just, sitting there, all hopped up on their face books and twittering around like savages. Why, back in my time...

Plus, mayyyybe there could be an affordable space kit, this being a Musk thing and all. Zero g naps sound sweet... Or a golf session on the moon. I'm sure my pension would cover that. Right.
 
K

kess

Member
It should be interesting if this technology is limited to the select few, distributed to the general population, exist in different tiers, or be standardized and/or regulated. Very much, I would imagine, because it could be the beginning or the end of equality as we know it.
 
M

marrec

Banned
capslock said:
Maybe for once we don't need to swoon at every idiotic Elon Musk idea?
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It's not even an Elon Musk idea, brain-computer interfaces have been making strides for the last (2) decades without Musk's enthusiasm.

I'm all for billionaires spending their money on science, I just hope the lets the scientists do their jobs and just funnels money into well vetted projects.

Too many times big money has been siphoned off into con-projects run by people with good pitches but zero path forward.
 
F

F!ReW!Re

Member
kess said:
It should be interesting if this technology is limited to the select few, distributed to the general population, exist in different tiers, or be standardized and/or regulated. Very much, I would imagine, because it could be the beginning or the end of equality as we know it.
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I imagine it being the wealthy who will get all of the major benefits and the really poor get f'ed again....
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
what if I don't want hard philosophical questions to deal with though
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Do you want china inventing mind control first? Or some crazy DARPA project?

You will take your Hard Questions and enjoy it.

I don't like them either but how else are we gonna solve mental health problems :\ which are now the #1 source of disability in the US taking over heart disease
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
Noisy Ninj4 said:
I think that before full brain transferrence could occur, we still have to deal with the Theseus Paradox. If you replace parts of the brain for upgrades or repairs, is it the same brain? The same person? Is there a point at which you replace too much and the person no longer exists?
Click to expand...

Meh we ignore it all the time. We're not the same person we were a moment ago. All atoms have moved. My brain structure has changed. Almost all atoms are replaced every year. Yet I continue to delude myself.
 
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