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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself

There was discussion before that it was a mistranslation and what he's really saying is something like that's what "cognition" or "perspective" is. There were some who also saw it as a call back to Yusuke admonishing Ryuji by saying he has no sense of aesthetics. It being the latter would be very out of place for that scene in the game, while what he actually says already seems out of place. One of the possible misfires from P5's localization.

If what Ryuji is saying isn't fueled by some sort of irony, then it doesn't make much sense because Ryuji isn't the type who would say "aesthetics" like that at all.


Ah, sorry guys I must have missed that discussion earlier. Thanks for the replies, I was just wondering if there was something I missed. Considering what the game is about, it's amazing how they seem to go way out of their way to use the word perception, haha.
 
They talk about how persona users can't have palaces in the first arc of the game.

I wouldn't at all be shocked if an Akechi palace comes in the re-release though. Morgana says that persona users not having palaces is how it should work, but he's not 100% on it. My first time through, I thought it was foreshadowing, but nothing ever came of it.

Could've also just been shitty translation though. No idea what the original script says.
 

Fireblend

Banned
Just finished the game, ~87 hours. Really, really liked it, just a bit more than P4 but I feel like the gap between the two will widen with time; P5 does a great job of exposing what was maybe not wrong, but weak in the previous entry, such as the repetitive story which went nowhere in 4. Really liked everything after the final battle - there definitely was a bit of a slowdown in terms of pacing during the midgame, but I like the strong note they end it on.

GotY for me so far, slightly besting Yakuza 0 and BotW.
 
I wouldn't at all be shocked if an Akechi palace comes in the re-release though. Morgana says that persona users not having palaces is how it should work, but he's not 100% on it. My first time through, I thought it was foreshadowing, but nothing ever came of it.

Could've also just been shitty translation though. No idea what the original script says.

A persona user having a palace would contradict P4 as well. The reason a persona user can't have a palace is that they don't have a Shadow to have a palace. A Persona is a Shadow that you've accepted as part of yourself (it doesn't matter if that's accepting positive or negative desires or whether you choose to do something about them, it's the denial of their existence that matters).

Though I can't think of anything that would necessarily strictly prohibit a Wild Card having a Palace, the same ability that allows for multiple Persona should theoretically allow for multiple Shadows. But theres nothing to really support that either.
 

DJwest

Member
Just finished it. 97 hours. My first Persona game. Absolutely amazing, from start to finish. Haven't played such a wonderful Jrpg in ages. Thanks Atlus. I'll miss these characters man...
 
150 hours game time, nearly 2 months IRL and I'm done.

I swear to God (and then will kill him) it's not recency bias. That's probably the best game I've ever played. Definitely best JRPG.

I can't believe it. It took me about a week to properly get into it and since then I don't know where the time has gone.

So worth the wait. Very few games deliver to the hype, some at best match the hype. This game exceeded it. It shocked me with how good it was and it's reinvigorated me to play more of the SMT games, as I have only finished P4 and 5.

Bring on SMT5 and P6. Atlus are the Squaresoft of our times.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
The bolded actually reminds me of another question I had: what does Ryuji mean by "And that's what aesthetics are." That doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't aesthetics more concerned with an understanding and appreciation of beauty?

He uses too much instagram.

A E S T H E T I C S
 
He uses too much instagram.

A E S T H E T I C S
That reminds me. Armed with my one year of Japanese study and some internet searches, I looked into that line as much as I could. Now, the word that Ryuji uses in the Japanese version is "美学" (bigaku), which literally translates as "aesthetics," or in some cases "Japanese aesthetics." So the translation is literally correct. However, when you look into the usage of 美学, things get a bit more complicated. I know referencing Wikipedia is no good in academia, but the opening paragraph of this entry on Japanese aesthetics raises an interesting point. It says that "...while seen as a philosophy in Western societies, the concept of aesthetics in Japan is seen as an integral part of daily life." So my understanding is that from a Western perspective aesthetics means an appreciation of beauty, while from a Japanese perspective, aesthetics (or more specifically 美学) can mean what it takes to live a beautiful life. Some common concepts I saw in this regard include simplicity, purity, and even having an appetite for life.

Heck, there's even a phrase I saw come up a couple time that illustrates the idea of 美学 pretty clearly. "親切は1つの美学である" is Google translated as "Kindness is one aesthetics." However, every site I saw that phrase on translated it as, "Kindness is a virtue."

So while I obviously don't really understand this whole thing, I thought that was too cool not to share.

(As an aside, Yusuke uses a different word in the beginning to make fun of Ryuji, but I couldn't quite make out what it was. Might even be a slightly different way of expressing the same concept for all I know.)
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I mean the game and the PT is pretty rooted in their own aesthetics also. The rebellion exhibited in the game is pretty visual, not just idealogical.
 
A persona user having a palace would contradict P4 as well. The reason a persona user can't have a palace is that they don't have a Shadow to have a palace. A Persona is a Shadow that you've accepted as part of yourself (it doesn't matter if that's accepting positive or negative desires or whether you choose to do something about them, it's the denial of their existence that matters).

Though I can't think of anything that would necessarily strictly prohibit a Wild Card having a Palace, the same ability that allows for multiple Persona should theoretically allow for multiple Shadows. But theres nothing to really support that either.

I was always working under the impression that the Metaverse in P5 and the TV world in P4 operate and function somewhat differently. The rules aren't the same. For example, someone has to be physically inside the TV in order for their Shadow to reach their full form/power in 4, but Shadows become boss fights all over the place in 5 without anyone ever knowing an alternate reality even exists.

re:bolded: That's actually a super interesting idea and a way for this to work within the bounds of P5's rules. While there may not be evidence yet to support this, it would be neat to see this play out in a re-release.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Huh, was that explicitly stated in 4?

I thought the shadows became stronger because well, you're attacking them.

Actually don't they gain power when the original tries to deny their true selves? In a way palace rulers are kinda hiding their true selves.
 
I don't mean, like, normal demons/shadows. I mean bosses. It's not explicitly stated, but they don't seem to trigger into boss fights until the real version of the person says the words, "You're not me." It's like they need to be actively pushed back against in an emotional way for them to reach the height of their power.
 

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Yeah, he shido thought of that.

giphy.gif
 

Anbec7

Member
Just beat it I liked it a lot even with the Cat Jesus thing.
There are some areas that could be improved if there is a "Crimson" version.

So what is new for New game plus? Secret bosses? The awesome ending persona stuff?
 
Just beat it I liked it a lot even with the Cat Jesus thing.
There are some areas that could be improved if there is a "Crimson" version.

So what is new for New game plus? Secret bosses? The awesome ending persona stuff?

I think it's just one secret boss and fusable Sataenel. No other changes that I'm aware of.
 
I don't mean, like, normal demons/shadows. I mean bosses. It's not explicitly stated, but they don't seem to trigger into boss fights until the real version of the person says the words, "You're not me." It's like they need to be actively pushed back against in an emotional way for them to reach the height of their power.

The boss shadows in P4 are all trying to actualize a hidden desire (and the desires are largely petty because the cast are mostly good natured. ). They perceive themselves as benevolent and only lash out when they feel rejected over that.

The Shadows in P5 by contrast are , for the most part, the bits of themselves that legitimately terrible people are refusing to acknowledge about themselves . They don't see themselves as benevolent , they are lashing out because they (correctly) perceive you as a threat to their ability to satisfy their base desires.

Though there's some inconsistency with P5 that I've commented on before about some of them seeming like they aren't hiding jack from themselves about their Shadow. You'd have problems telling Okumara and Shido from their Shadows most days but the reason the "real" person doesn't remember things that happen in the Shadow world is because they refuse to acknowledge their shadow.
 

DJwest

Member
So Akechi is 100% dead huh? I admit that I expected him to pop up quite a few times to help the crew against the holy grail.
 
Akechi's social link was such bullshit that Morgana even called it out for being bullshit at one point. Fix it, Atlus. fixitfixitfixitfixitfixit
 

Phoenixus

Member
Finished the game today. It's incredibly rare that I ever go for the Platinum but I'm making an exception here.

Very slightly disappointed at the end, I guess due to Personas 3 and 4 having additional battles in the last month, but that aside the last few bosses felt satisfying to beat.
And i was slightly gutted that there were so few references to P3 and 4 (the Rise poster being the only one I know or outside of DLC), but after all the spinoffs over the years I do appreciate Atlus letting P5 gain its own identity.

Is there a hidden trophy that relies on difficulty selection? Going through new game plus on hard this time, not sure whether to pick merciless instead.

Edit: also love how the Smash Bros 4 announcer voiced the MC, only realised in the end credits. :D
 

RalchAC

Member
The boss shadows in P4 are all trying to actualize a hidden desire (and the desires are largely petty because the cast are mostly good natured. ). They perceive themselves as benevolent and only lash out when they feel rejected over that.

The Shadows in P5 by contrast are , for the most part, the bits of themselves that legitimately terrible people are refusing to acknowledge about themselves . They don't see themselves as benevolent , they are lashing out because they (correctly) perceive you as a threat to their ability to satisfy their base desires.

Though there's some inconsistency with P5 that I've commented on before about some of them seeming like they aren't hiding jack from themselves about their Shadow. You'd have problems telling Okumara and Shido from their Shadows most days but the reason the "real" person doesn't remember things that happen in the Shadow world is because they refuse to acknowledge their shadow.

They don't really refuse to acknowledge them. They just hide those parts of them from the media and the general public.

In Persona 4 the characters had to face the parts of them they were ashamed of. Deep down I'd say they knew it, but they were on denial due to various factors (including the fact that an ever growing group of people was there hearing the shadow venting said character darkest secrets). People in Persona 5 isn't ashamed of their Shadows. But most of them know that society will reject them if they show their true colours.

People compare Futaba with the character arcs in Persona 4. But there is a clear difference between the two. Futaba knows what's her problem and acknowledges it. She wanted the PT to trigger a change of heart. She even tells the party the keyword for her Palace.
 
They don't really refuse to acknowledge them. They just hide those parts of them from the media and the general public.

In Persona 4 the characters had to face the parts of them they were ashamed of. Deep down I'd say they knew it, but they were on denial due to various factors (including the fact that an ever growing group of people was there hearing the shadow venting said character darkest secrets). People in Persona 5 isn't ashamed of their Shadows. But most of them know that society will reject them if they show their true colours.

People compare Futaba with the character arcs in Persona 4. But there is a clear difference between the two. Futaba knows what's her problem and acknowledges it. She wanted the PT to trigger a change of heart. She even tells the party the keyword for her Palace.

It was all part of Evil Igor's Plan.

Unlike Izanami, the odds are way against you.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I dunno though, I think the odds were always against you. Evil Igor is just a manifestation of the will of the people, like always.
 
I dunno though, I think the odds were always against you. Evil Igor is just a manifestation of the will of the people, like always.

Shido and Akechi had years to Master the powers of Persona and start their plan + Research into the metaverse.

Adachi
and Yu started at around the same time.
 

sammex

Member
Finished it last night - 127 hours. Hmm, I really enjoyed it but felt it was a bit too long. The ending felt a bit flat to me as well. At the end of P4G I really felt gutted that the year was over and I had to go home, but with P5 it felt like it was the right time to leave. P5 clearly is a better game but I didn't have the same emotional connection, even though I think I liked the characters more in P5. I hope Atlus don't wait so long this time to make P6.
 
Do they ever explain how Sojiro is related to the MC? I thought they were family or something.

Joker's parents were friends with some of Sojiro's regulars. Regulars mentioned the situation to Sojiro, and Sojiro decided to take Joker in.

I always found it weird that we never saw those customers in-game though.
 
Joker's parents were friends with some of Sojiro's regulars. Regulars mentioned the situation to Sojiro, and Sojiro decided to take Joker in.

I always found it weird that we never saw those customers in-game though.

Yeah, it's weird that this guy takes care of some kid on the recommendation of his costumers. I know he was getting paid for it.
 

RalchAC

Member
Again though, seriously, what kind of probation forces you to move and change schools?

Joker was expelled after he was charged and Shujin was the only school that accepted him. So he had to move to Tokyo and attend it, since he had no other choice.

That's what I got from early game. He seems to be rather infamous and Shujin only decided to accept him because it'd boost the school reputation.
 
Yeah, it's weird that this guy takes care of some kid on the recommendation of his costumers. I know he was getting paid for it.

I don't think it's weird that he decided to do it, considering his huge soft spot for strays, but it is weird that we never saw the people who initiated this whole thing if they were at the cafe often enough to tell him about it.
 

RalchAC

Member
I don't think it's weird that he decided to do it, considering his huge soft spot for strays, but it is weird that we never saw the people who initiated this whole thing if they were at the cafe often enough to tell him about it.

He needed the money due to Futaba's uncle's blackmailing too, I think.

The government pays tutors, he even says that much.
 
He needed the money due to Futaba's uncle's blackmailing too, I think.

The government pays tutors, he even says that much.

Futaba's uncle wasn't blackmailing him at that point though. Sojiro has paid to get Futaba but he's surprised when the uncle tracks him down and calls and then shows up in his Confidant.
 

MikeBison

Member
Just finished the game. Whole final dungeon and boss, the cutscenes and particularly the music are fucking badass.

Thought shido's conclusion was a little weak. The end of that palace at least. But knew there had to be more and wasn't disappointed. Got suitably epic.
 
So there's a Persona 5 comic anthology floating around the usual dubiously legal manga sites.

Some fun highlights include:
- Finding out why Joker handles the Finances (the answer should be obvious)
- Akira and Sojiro have a curry cooking contest, complete with Shokugeki no Soma reactions.
- After discussing Makoto's ridable Persona, she insists they haven't been trying hard enough to ride theirs. (Arsene isn't a fan)
- And they even address Morgana's badgering that you should sleep.
 

KTallguy

Banned
Finishing thoughts after 160 hours (in Japanese so I was extra slow):

--WARNING WALL OF TEXT--


  • Story was great. I like the sense of optimism it has. Humanity doesn't have to suck, guys!
  • I like how the cast worked hard to release you after you were locked up, and didn't do it in a fantastical way.
  • The Akechi twist was intriguing. I personally enjoyed it but I do think it was over explained. I was really wondering wtf the blurring was during the main story.
  • I liked the structure of being interrogated when you got a new confidant, and the back and forth of those scenes. I liked the payoff that it had with the faked suicide.
  • I liked the survey meter and how it went up and down, it was a nice barometer and story telling device. It genuinely felt shitty to lose all that popularity. Also all the comments around town and on the net that represented public opinion were REALLY cool. Great job Atlus.
  • I really thought Morgana was dead... that was nice that he was back, although it kind of deflated the impact of that last moment.
  • I really wanted more special events. The school trip was cool, I loved that it was Hawaii this time. The Valentines day thing could have been somewhere other than home. Maybe because I played P4 golden first, which had all those extra scenes, I felt like it was missing from P5.
  • The final twist was really cool and as a Persona fan, it was amazing to hear Igor's real voice. Blew my mind. I'm sad that the real actor passed away. He was so iconic for the series. I kinda felt crushed hearing his voice and knowing it was pieced together.
  • Final battle was OK. I enjoyed the Goro fight more, and like other people mention it was much harder. I did die once in the final battle when I used an all physical attack on the arms and got reflected back. Felt so dumb.
  • All the Persona were fucking beautifuly and exquisitly modeled. Bravo. I won't collect them all but they were all inspiring. I loved the blurb on each one too.

Main Cast Notes:


  • The main character was excellent. No complaints. Sometimes it did feel weird when you just don't talk... like in cutscenes. But love the design, style, hair and glasses, everything.
  • I loved the anime scene in the beginning when you first get the mask, it was dark and weird. I kinda wish there was a little bit more of that.
  • I agree with some of the sentiments about the main cast. They're all very different from one another and don't really hang out together outside your Phantom Thieving interactions. In P4 you saw Chie and Yukiko hanging out all the time, but in this game Ryuji and Yosuke are not people that would hang out normally. It does mean that the bonds between the characters feel more incidental, but there's a cool dynamic of lots of different kinds of people coming together.
  • I think Futaba was very interesting and mostly well written. I will say that the fact that she is a hikkikomori was brushed aside when it was convenient. It's inspiring, and I get that "fixing" her by taking down her palace helped "cure" her in a fantastic way. But social anxiety is no joke.
  • I think it's really weird that you can date Futaba. She just feels too young. I know the scenes are innocent, but I'm just kinda meh about the idea. Feels like pandering.
  • The protagonists all felt much older than High School students. They were more like college students. That's one of the reasons the Futaba thing bothered me. I kind of wish they'd explore something other than High School.
  • Futaba's Final Guard skill is fucking awesome. I really like how she "hacked" in during battle. I did NOT like the long animations in Mementos and that dumb treasure thing. Kill it with fire. I never really understood how to get the treasure after she highlighted the character too. I tried hold up and stuff... sometimes they'd ask for items that I never had. Felt a bit half-baked.
  • Sometimes it was really hard to understand the characters' motivation. Like once Anne helped Shiho, it felt a little weird that she's like "well I guess I'll go back in these dungeons because reasons". I guess the reason was "I can't let people get away with bad things"... just felt shallow.
  • Anne's arc was also pretty shallow... it would have been much more interesting to see her screw up or fail. Instead the arc was "I guess I'm being a model to be a model" -> "OK, I'm totally going to be a model now, I can do it!" She's cute but... yeah. I liked Shiho more as a concept, I wish she was around more. She's more interesting than Anne. It would have been fun to see Anne and Shiho together... flesh out the characters more.
  • Makoto's key art makes her look much more crazy and appealing than her in game personality and model. I know she's the big sister type but I wish she had been a little more unhinged. I do like her in general, and she took some big risks. I appreciated her as a character more than Anne. Just like, go crazy once IRL...
  • Haru is totally my type, but I have to admit that it was a bit immature in handling her grief from her dad dying. Like, it doesn't seem to affect her that much. I like her arc and what she ends up talking about, but I guess they didn't want to really approach it too much. But fashion, personality, all of that was great. Good job Atlus ... lol.
  • Ryuji was a great buddy character. He felt really solid, and I never questioned his motivations. He got dogpiled a lot by other characters... and like he had to go "man I hate studying" like every time tests happened. But overall, he's a cool character. I loved his final persona form.
  • Yosuke... man what a weird character. I actually liked him quite a bit but I didn't finish his story. There was a fun twist at the sushi shop. I enjoyed that he was a bit goofy. He didn't feel like any other Persona characters. I never used his skills though. His main persona was really, really cool.
  • Akechi Goro. Haha, what a silly character. I did think it was gutsy to give you a new character and then take it away. His all out attack end was so silly, with that Michael Jackson dance and big justice poster. I did like his arc. I did feel a little bad for him when people were bashing him. I also liked that he hung out at the cafe and said hi. There was a weirdness to him that did have a payoff. All of a sudden... EVIL FACE!!! At that moment, I kinda wanted Akechi's Tarot to change from Justice to something else... like really why the fuck is it Justice? He's a big sneaky liar! So dumb.
  • Morgana was great, muchhhhhhh better than fucking Teddy. Fuck Teddy. I agree that him being your voice, telling you that you're tired, was annoying. I kinda wish they had dialed that down a bit and had you talk to him directly more to get that bit. I liked his character arc a lot. I was really worried about what would happen towards the middle of the game, where he stopped talking to you. He always got the short end of the stick when it came to sushi...
  • Morgana had a few lines that were references to Teddy (Kuma) in battle, like when using items. Also Ryuji says the same line as Junpei when he gets up after being hit by his weakness. Did they preseve this stuff in the US release?
  • In general... it seems like these characters don't really have much of a dark side. I kind of wish they explored the characters fucking up more... or becoming drunk with their power. I guess Morgana had a little bit of that. But I want them to break these characters more, make them suffer just a bit more.

Side Cast:


  • In general, all the women want to have sex with you. I know, I know. But it's like you hit that lvl 8 point and suddenly, break in conversation, 30 degree head tilt, "you into older women?" It would have been interesting to be completely rejected. Even though I loved many of the side characters, I feel like the other Persona games had more variety in age, gender, and social background. Like the dying guy on the bench in P3, the little girl in P3, the old lady in P4, and the mother of the day care kid from P4... all of these characters felt pretty unique. Imagine if the mother in P4 was like "soooooo do you like older women...???" at the end of that link. But in P5, they conveniently made all the female links really easily segway into it. So it felt a bit hmmmmmmmm to me.
  • Sojiro was amazing. What a great character. I loved his personality and voice actor. I loved his relationship with Futaba. And I really liked how it took time for him to trust you, and that how he softened near the end. He had to go through a lot of fucked up stuff and it was interesting seeing how he handled it.
  • The tarot didn't really match the reporter woman, Ohya. I don't get why she was evil/devil. Also her skills were useless. Kind of a throwaway character. Lala was really fun. I echo other sentimates about how I'd rather have a story with Lala.
  • Kawakami is super hot. I really liked that story arc too. She felt pretty human to me. The maid clothing is so dumb though. I kinda felt shitty having her do my laundry and cook while I went and hung out with other chicks. So mean... lol. I ended up in the doghouse with her in the end, but then the next month she was totally like OK bye good luck... that felt weird. Again, it's convenient but weird.
  • Mishima was an interesting character. I like that he kinda self-corrupted... was a fun arc. He totally ruined my goddamn school trip. Like shut the fuck up already.
  • Hifumi's skills were fucking awesome. It totally changed the way I played the game. I also liked her as a character. What a shitty Mom... Fun and quirky.
  • Yoshida I didn't finish. Starting that arc was a little weird. I did like the character but just ran out of time.
  • Shinya arcade kid... Random Fire is a fucking awesome feeling skill!! I didn't complete his arc. I assume his house is all sorts of fucked up.
  • Chihaya's voice in Japanese is that dumb cute voice that is half cute, half annoying. I didn't use her skills but in retrospect I should have... that's probably the only way to max all the confidant links. I did like the payoff with her. That fucking stupid holy stone... all my money for NOTHING.
  • Caroline/Justine was fun. I maxed it quickly and I like the dialog. I kinda wish I could have fought them a little longer in the Velvet Room. I like how they changed up to Velveteen... sorry I mean whatever the new chick's name is... although she just turned out to be the stereotypical Japanese little angel girl. But still, a nice arc and twist. I used their skills a lot but found Solitary Confinement to be largely useless.
  • Iwai (gun guy) was really cool. I regret not finishing his link. Took me a while to start it. His skills were kinda dumb. I didn't use guns too much, didn't find them to be super useful. But as a character I loved the relationship between his son and him. I'll finish the arc on youtube... lol.
  • Takemi Tae was really fun, great character and great arc. Great music. It was nice to see her get what she wanted and save that kid.
  • Sae was cool. I liked her relationship with Makoto and Goro. I loved the interrogation scenes and how she was so multifaceted. I hear the English version butchered her a bit... which is a shame. She was a pretty stand out character to me.

Other thoughts:


  • Mementos music sucks balls... like fucking hell please let me change this.
  • Mementos in general was pretty boring. Also it was dark and hard to see so I just left the eagle vision shit on all the time.
  • I was rarely challenged in Mementos and beat almost every dungeon on the first day (unless they forced you to leave in the middle, like Madarame). I played on Normal. I might try hard next time.
  • Once you got to Futaba's dungeon the game got a lot better and tighter.
  • Sometimes the palaces were a bit long, but I enjoyed how they mixed up things and how each dungeon had a different twist. I even enjoyed the final "security" locks in the last dungeon.
  • Getting taken hostage by an enemy was fucking cool, and it was even cooler that it happened way late in the game.
  • Continuing with that thread, I really enjoyed how the game drip fed new content to you constantly. I enjoyed unlocking all the locations, playing video games at home, and just exploring Tokyo.
  • Goro fight was the most challenging in the game and the most memorable.

Closing thoughts:

I liked how the game ended on an optimistic note. I think as a story it's much better than P4, and has better pacing than P3, although I really enjoyed P3's main arc. It's a less personal story in a lot of ways than P4 and 3, it's more about the public in general, public sentiment, positivity vs negativity, and finding your place in the world. Not giving up when you can make a difference. The scene in the velvet room where you got all your party together was really nice.

I really thought that you'd have to fight or kill Morgana in the end because of all those flashbacks. I liked that it wasn't exactly how I imagined it would be. And plus they did all that shit in P4 already. But I liked how they explained his origin and all that.

What the fuck will happen to Igor and the velvet room now?? What's going to happen in P6? Are we going to get another old man? Or is it just going to be hot chicks from now on? I hope not, we need balance in this world... lol.

Definitely an amazing game, was an enjoyable 4-5 month journey.
 
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