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Nirolak · Nov 13, 2016

I think the issues people tend to run into most with evaluating new cards is that they're evaluating them overwhelmingly against existing cards, trying to slot them into existing decks, and/or assuming that the meta of the new set is largely the same as it is now.

I feel it makes way more sense to do something like what Kibler does and try to assess each card as:
1.) What decks (existing or hypothetical) does this fit into?
2.) Assuming that deck works, would this be a good card in that deck?

Then, after the full set is revealed, it makes sense to go back and construct hypothetical decks based on your earlier assessments, and then try to guess whether or not the decks would actually be good. More specifically, I think it makes sense to just start listing out a bunch of strengths and shortcomings with the list you created, since it will both reveal what types of metas the deck would actually work in, and also guide you to making improvements.

This also helps tell what decks might be good in the future. A lot of the current core cards from Mid-Range Shaman were introduced during TGT, but Shaman was not an amazing class at that time by any means. However, shoving the whole thing together, you could see the potential with a few more cards. The same thing happened with Dragon decks when people identified that what they most needed was some kind of strong Dragon related heal or taunt around turn 3 or 4, and Twilight Guardian ended up providing that.

There are a lot of cards that are going to seem bad in isolation, or with only one or two synergy cards revealed, but I don't think it makes sense to do day-by-day reveal evaluations assuming that linchpin cards will never exist.

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

Priest in 2016? I just 6-0'd my way to rank 5 with dragon priest, a deck I've never played before.

Nirolak said:
I think the issues people tend to run into most with evaluating new cards is that they're evaluating them overwhelmingly against existing cards, trying to slot them into existing decks, and/or assuming that the meta of the new set is largely the same as it is now.

I feel it makes way more sense to do something like what Kibler does and try to assess each card as:
1.) What decks (existing or hypothetical) does this fit into?
2.) Assuming that deck works, would this be a good card in that deck?

Then, after the full set is revealed, it makes sense to go back and construct hypothetical decks based on your earlier assessments, and then try to guess whether or not the decks would actually be good. More specifically, I think it makes sense to just start listing out a bunch of strengths and shortcomings with the list you created, since it will both reveal what types of metas the deck would actually work in, and also guide you to making improvements.

This also helps tell what decks might be good in the future. A lot of the current core cards from Mid-Range Shaman were introduced during TGT, but Shaman was not an amazing class at that time by any means. However, shoving the whole thing together, you could see the potential with a few more cards. The same thing happened with Dragon decks when people identified that what they most needed was some kind of strong Dragon related heal or taunt around turn 3 or 4, and Twilight Guardian ended up providing that.

There are a lot of cards that are going to seem bad in isolation, or with only one or two synergy cards revealed, but I don't think it makes sense to do day-by-day reveal evaluations assuming that linchpin cards will never exist.

One thing a several reviewers do is judge the cards based on the current meta. And then they get "blasted" when their reviews are reviewed not in that context.

But yeah, I agree with Kibler in that I try to look for the positives about the card rather than focus purely on the negatives. And those questions are an example of how to look for the positives.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

Mobius and pet octopus said:
This was a fun maly rogue game. Made a new list with 1 burgle in it. I got a charged hammer. Queued into control shaman, managed to get a 14/14 van cleef with him having no hex lol... and just wiped the floor from there.

So why burgle in maly rogue? Well tbh, swashburglar works right? But I always get shitty rng off swash and burgle's second card is probably more relevant than swash's 1 body. And rogue never has a turn 3 play without coin anyway. Here is the list

huh that must've been a control shaman. He died with so many cards in his hand lol

thats the bad thing bout control shaman- you waiting for the late game and trying to rely on your heals to get you there. but if you dont pull out the right anwsers you'll lose before you get to the late game. It also suffers to Control Priest which is why this season I just stuck to Hunter for easy climb to 15 and parked right there.

[edit- When I say Control Shaman I mean the traditional concede shaman deck that's loaded with high value targets that can be entombed. I do not mean the Noxious Control shaman that runs a bunch of cheap cards and hard counters Control Warrior, etc with Harrison]

Szadek · Nov 13, 2016

The thing is, it's very hard to predict what an entierly new deck would look like, how it would work and how it would affect the meta.
There are just too many variables.

gutshot · Nov 13, 2016

New Legendary:

jgminto · Nov 13, 2016

That's definitely a Legendary appropriate for Disguised Toast.

BlackBuzzard · Nov 13, 2016

I would play it for shenanigans

Papercuts · Nov 13, 2016

Seems weird. Really awful statline, the battlecry seems like you would want to you use it on other strong battlecry minions while wanting to pull something with an active effect (like Emperor or Rag) which is kinda counterintuitive.

Dahbomb · Nov 13, 2016

That's a cool card but man those stats are bad.

They probably play tested this card a lot and found some broken Barnes like stuff with it.

rahji · Nov 13, 2016

I don't think it will see much play. It is too conditional.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

This replay was the dream- I had created a 10/10 edwin against a paladin that had no answer for on turn 5

Nirolak said:
I think the issues people tend to run into most with evaluating new cards is that they're evaluating them overwhelmingly against existing cards, trying to slot them into existing decks, and/or assuming that the meta of the new set is largely the same as it is now.

I feel it makes way more sense to do something like what Kibler does and try to assess each card as:
1.) What decks (existing or hypothetical) does this fit into?
2.) Assuming that deck works, would this be a good card in that deck?

Then, after the full set is revealed, it makes sense to go back and construct hypothetical decks based on your earlier assessments, and then try to guess whether or not the decks would actually be good. More specifically, I think it makes sense to just start listing out a bunch of strengths and shortcomings with the list you created, since it will both reveal what types of metas the deck would actually work in, and also guide you to making improvements.

I love Trump (and he's a nice guy in person too)- but I wonder if any of the new cards he called bad might turn out good once the full set is announced

Dahbomb · Nov 13, 2016

With this card you can play just 3 minions.

Some small 0 mana minion, this card and then Malygos.

You use the 0 mana minion, then this card, then pull out Malygos for an OTK at 6 mana.

This is a card that needs some experimentation. I feel that there is some crazy combo stuff that might be possible. Hell maybe even throw Barnes in that same deck for more chances to get the exact minion you want on the field.

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

It is a conditional effect where you have to profit 3 mana on the minion upgrade to break even and you don't get battlecry value.

Seems bad?

6 mana seems too expensive for such a random effect.

Drkirby · Nov 13, 2016

The ability to shuffle the card back into your deck could be really good if you get more cards that do stuff when drawn.

I wonder how it works if you have no minions left in your deck. Do you swap the target with Shadow of Nothing? Does it fizzle out?

slightconfuse · Nov 13, 2016

Anyone encountered arcane giant priest?

Been playing some on ladder

Edit: looks like a deck Kripp played

Dahbomb · Nov 13, 2016

Yaboosh said:
It is a conditional effect where you have to profit 3 mana on the minion upgrade to break even and you don't get battlecry value.

Seems bad?

6 mana seems too expensive for such a random effect.

This is the type of card where traditional mathematics aren't going to apply that well because the effect is specific enough that it can create a powerful combo which in turn might create a powerful deck all by itself. Like it doesn't matter much that the card is 4/3 vs 5/4, it's the mana cost and the effect that is the most relevant here.

Needs some experimentation and stuff.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

Dahbomb said:
With this card you can play just 3 minions.

Some small 0 mana minion, this card and then Malygos.

You use the 0 mana minion, then this card, then pull out Malygos for an OTK at 6 mana.

This is a card that needs some experimentation. I feel that there is some crazy combo stuff that might be possible. Hell maybe even throw Barnes in that same deck for more chances to get the exact minion you want on the field.

yeah my 1st thought was combo this card with malygos somehow- then prep + sinister strikes + evis for a surprise burn down

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

Barnes just seems way better. It can cheat out powerful effects early, doesn't pull a possible win condtion out of your deck before you are ready, can be played effectively on an empty board.

My first thought for a deck for it besides Yshaarj-Barnes style gimmick decks is a heavy Deathrattle nzoth deck. But pulling Nzoth is a major problem.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

this card can work easy for rogue tho is my guess. our decks work so well with cards like this (gadgetzan, prep, malygos, etc the synergy is obvious)

Plus we're getting counterfeit coin hell ya

But I am not sure I'd craft it straight up right now

Pooya · Nov 13, 2016

what happens to that minion? goes back to your deck?

QFNS · Nov 13, 2016

Yeah this card feels like it exists to enable some weird combo stuff.
I can't think of what that is right now (I see Dahbomb is thinking about Malygos, but who knows what else is out there), but I'm sure there is something busted with this.

Also consider that the card has to be in deck vs in hand. Which makes it potentially interesting when you would specifically NOT want to draw a card.

slightconfuse · Nov 13, 2016

Card is useful for saving minions as well

Dahbomb · Nov 13, 2016

miladesn said:
what happens to that minion? goes back to your deck?

The other minion goes back into the deck.

Szadek · Nov 13, 2016

Well, that cards is really, really bad.
The stats are godawful,so you need to make at least 3-4 mana worth of value from this card in oder to break even while returning a card to the deck.
So... you play this card in a deck without any cheap minions that still somehow has cheap minions on the board?
Good enough for meme decks.

Dahbomb said:
With this card you can play just 3 minions.

Some small 0 mana minion, this card and then Malygos.

You use the 0 mana minion, then this card, then pull out Malygos for an OTK at 6 mana.

This is a card that needs some experimentation. I feel that there is some crazy combo stuff that might be possible. Hell maybe even throw Barnes in that same deck for more chances to get the exact minion you want on the field.

You wouldn't play 3 minions, only 2 + something that summons tokens.
However, if youa re going for that, why not just play barnes?

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

Enabling a Malygos OTK super early would require the god draw of all god draws.

I mean, doing it on turn 10 with a gimmick 3 minion deck requires all your combo cards to be in hand. Both non Malygos minions to be in hand. Malygos must still be in your deck.

That is Trollden material not an actual deck.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

Yaboosh said:
Enabling a Malygos OTK super early would require the god draw of all god draws.

I mean, doing it on turn 10 with a gimmick 3 minion deck requires all your combo cards to be in hand. Both non Malygos minions to be in hand. Malygos must still be in your deck.

That is Trollden material not an actual deck.

we have to think beyond an instant OTK. sure that is the dream but obviously not likely.

we have to think bout the malygos 4/12 body being there which is pretty sticky. Also what if ragnaros gets pulled out instead that would be nice. Then conceal him asap [edit- Wait I'm stupid conceal not work with Rag right? lol!]

I see so much potential but I love experimenting

Drkirby · Nov 13, 2016

A combo you can do is put the 1/1 Barns pulled out back in you deck, when drawn it would have normal stats.

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

patchday said:
we have to think beyond an instant OTK. sure that is the dream but obviously not likely.

we have to think bout the malygos 4/12 body being there which is pretty sticky. Also what if ragnaros gets pulled out instead that would be nice. Then conceal him asap [edit- Wait I'm stupid conceal not work with Rag right? lol!]

I see so much potential but I love experimenting

Most classes have plenty of hard removal available on turn 6.

I like the card because it is fun and requires thinking but my first impression is that it is probably too late to effectively cheat anything out.

Pooya · Nov 13, 2016

I don't really see the point right now, it actually doesn't make sense in those all spells Barnes/Yshaarj decks. It's too expensive to combo with anything really.

Maybe there is another card in the set that makes sense with this, otherwise seems 400 dust.

Best case for it is in a top heavy druid deck, and you just swap a token with a big guy. doesn't seem like a good plan.

Would it shuffle a card twice in your deck if you play it with Brann? I don't think so right? I don't think it has any fatigue use then.

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

It's a trick card that requires some careful deck building or planning, so why immediately call it bad so fast?

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

Drkirby said:
A combo you can do is put the 1/1 Barns pulled out back in you deck, when drawn it would have normal stats.

we can slo shadowstep Malygos too after we've dealt some dmg with a prep+strike. This will make him cheaper and after we get more combo cards renew the killing spree

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

Mobius and pet octopus said:
It's a trick card that requires some careful deck building or planning, so why immediately call it bad so fast?

It's so expensive. And conditional.

It would be better as a Dirty Rat style card that works on enemy minions and switches it with a minion in their deck. Like a legendary sap with a big downside.

Pooya · Nov 13, 2016

If you get it from Golden Monkey, you can swap monkey with another legendary, then play monkey again if your cards are not good xD

Papercuts · Nov 13, 2016

I'm not seeing it personally...you can just do the same stuff with only Barnes, Maly, Velen or something but that doesn't really work.

It has the same downsides like when you draw the cards it gets all fucked up, and being a 6 mana instead of 4 can be a big deal. Having Barnes and this for the 1/1 is 10 mana and relies on drawing two cards before something specific.

That said I wonder what happens if you use this on a minion when there's no more left in the deck. Would the battlecry blank if it can't swap the minion or would it just shuffle it in your deck? Could be an interaction worth noting for fatigue. Guessing it does nothing though.

Definitely not going to call the card bad but it seems really clunky regarding OTK combos.

Familienoberhauptvogel · Nov 13, 2016

I remember wanting to make a reno paladin deck that used MC to remove excess copies of secrets from my deck. By playing 2 of each secret and 2 MCs the only way for Reno not to go off was if both MCs were never drawn, since playing 1 of them makes the deck highlander.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

yeah even as excited as I am I'm not thinking it's an immediate craft. I'd play with it tho if it came out of a pack and try to combine with Barnes. Unlike Barnes- we'd get a fully functional unit that can defend itself lol

Farewell · Nov 13, 2016

Hmm i don't know, maybe someone can come up with good ideas, can't see it right now.

V-Faction · Nov 13, 2016

So many Battlecries to pass up if you play this card. The advent of "Put" cards (Barnes, Goya, Dirty Rat, etc.) needs to have something more lenient, as often it's not worth it based on Mana, or drawbacks, or Stat lines.

Barnes is great because it doesn't actually bring out the real minion, just a copy. Thus, if you backfire, you still get to use that minion. And it has okay stats. Certainly not Goya (oh-boy-a) level.

Sure, the likely perfect scenario is -- you hit your 2-mana Totem to bring out your Ragnaros 2 turns earlier. Lots of gambles.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

yeah I guess the stats on that card is bad since we're getting a full unit. Something like Tomb pillager. But 6 mana was spent to get it

Hm.... yeah I dunno now

(but wait isnt that still good mana investment...)

Ladekabel · Nov 13, 2016

How does this card interact with Brann? Will it shuffle the first card back into the deck, too, or will the effect only trigger once?

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

Ladekabel said:
How does this card interact with Brann? Will it shuffle the first card back into the deck, too, or will the effect only trigger once?

Brann should have no effect since the card you targetted is no longer in play.

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

It should work on both enemy minions and friendly minions for the versatility.

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

Yaboosh said:
It should work on both enemy minions and friendly minions for the versatility.

Neutral entomb? No thanks.

Yaboosh · Nov 13, 2016

Mobius and pet octopus said:
Neutral entomb? No thanks.

No I'm saying return it to their own deck and swap them out for one of their own minions as a neutral sap.

patchday · Nov 13, 2016

will be a beautiful day when Entomb rotates out. but it will be bittersweet day- since I'll have to part with some of my beloved cards that I have not even given a lot of thought to yet

(granted this day is many months from now most likely)

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

Yaboosh said:
No I'm saying return it to their own deck and swap them out for one of their own minions as a neutral sap.

Neutral sap? No thanks times a million.

ViviOggi · Nov 13, 2016

Cute but the reality is that these slow-ass meme tricks historically haven't worked in HS. "Maybe in a slower meta"

Mobius and pet octopus said:
Neutral sap? No thanks times a million.

More like neutral Kidnapper

Familienoberhauptvogel · Nov 13, 2016

Ahaha killed a mid shaman playing maly rogue on turn 5 with a turn 2 8/8 van cleef.

1.8k saved up.

sibarraz · Nov 13, 2016

I feel like that legendary will be super great on maly druid

Mobius and pet octopus · Nov 13, 2016

sibarraz said:
I feel like that legendary will be super great on maly druid

But you need a minion to survive, maly to be left in the deck, it to hit maly, and have burn in your hand to finish your opponent off. If you lose maly there, you could lose the game... I think it's a bad fit. Unlike barnes, this one uses the card so if maly dies there goes your primary win condition.

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