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Logitech responds about PS4 wheel support - Sony demands advanced security

Waveset

Member
So it looks like I'll have to drop £320-370 for a compatible wheel?
I appreciate some people feel that mentioning PC's is irrelevant to the discussion but my wallet feels it's incredibly pertinent right now.
 

ps3ud0

Member
So a few questions:

1) Is it even worthwhile wondering if they could enable the wheels but without FFB? Sounds stupid I know but the whole issue regards patents is the FFB implementation that Immersion owns AFAIK.

2) When do Immersion patents expire? I know its not soon (they must be way over 10 years already) so perhaps theres a chance we can use our wheels on the PS5 :p. Sounds silly but hey has wheel tech moved considerably in the last decade?

3) Why the heck are fighting sticks not working with the PS4? Im not aware of any obvious patents/fees that Sony need to pay so is this just a method for us to have to rebuy new sticks? Makes me consider taking a DS4 apart just to use the PCB if I knew what I was doing...

ps3ud0 8)
 
So it looks like I'll have to drop £320-370 for a compatible wheel?
I appreciate some people feel that mentioning PC's is irrelevant to the discussion but my wallet feels it's incredibly pertinent right now.

I already did it. Not going to buy another wheel, if I'm going to have to spend money a gaming PC seems better value than another version of something I already own :).

The silly thing for Sony is that now I have more options for multiplats. Will I still buy them on my PS4 if they look nicer and are cheaper on my PC? So Sony lose me for much more than just driving games because they can't sort this out, I can't imagine I will be the only one.....
 

paskowitz

Member
So a few questions:

1) Is it even worthwhile wondering if they could enable the wheels but without FFB? Sounds stupid I know but the whole issue regards patents is the FFB implementation that Immersion owns AFAIK.

2) When do Immersion patents expire? I know its not soon (they must be way over 10 years already) so perhaps theres a chance we can use our wheels on the PS5 :p. Sounds silly but hey has wheel tech moved considerably in the last decade?

3) Why the heck are fighting sticks not working with the PS4? Im not aware of any obvious patents/fees that Sony need to pay so is this just a method for us to have to rebuy new sticks? Makes me consider taking a DS4 apart just to use the PCB if I knew what I was doing...

ps3ud0 8)

1) No. Try driving while chugging morphine.

2) I am no expert but, I think they can refile the patent by making small changes to the technology, which is likely what they are/will be doing.

3) Security chip, licensing, who the hell knows at this point.


Honestly, we need a #PS4NoDRM type movement to get this shit solved. All the fight stick owners and all the FFB wheel owners should collectively push Sony for answers and hopefully change.
 
1) No. Try driving while chugging morphine.

2) I am no expert but, I think they can refile the patent by making small changes to the technology, which is likely what they are/will be doing.

3) Security chip, licensing, who the hell knows at this point.


Honestly, we need a #PS4NoDRM type movement to get this shit solved. All the fight stick owners and all the FFB wheel owners should collectively push Sony for answers and hopefully change.
1) heh Once I equated trying to play GT without rumble to trying to drive while wearing thick, winter gloves.
 

CamHostage

Member
It's really frustrating that the console manufacturers have become more open about everything but their hardware. Maybe the cracking of PSP and other systems through hardware work-arounds has them spooked (though I've seen just as many software hacks) but they are being tight-asses about allowing any third-party controllers or devices onto their boxes and it's a real bummer!

The PSX era had a lot of crap out there, but it also yielded some truly awesome 3rd Party hardware still in use today. Steering wheels, flight yokes, arcade fighting sticks, dance pads, music instruments, weird-but-cool controller designs, touchpads and touchscreen interfaces, classic arcade 4-way joysticks, throwback controllers, freaking motion-controlled maracas/bongos, whatever's out there could be made to sell and could find product to make use of it. And especially when you think about services like left-handed controllers, analog stick-swap controllers, stuff like that which a console manufacturer would never provide, the options are rich.

We finally have hardware interfaces in USB and Bluetooth in the box where these consoles can interface with hardware openly and easily (a single arcade stick could be made to work on any platform, if allowed,) and yet we have access restricted more than ever. If even Logitech, makers of the official Gran Turismo racing wheels previously, can't get Sony to let them in, the doorway in is clearly too restrictive.
 

NateGrigs

Member
Honestly, we need a #PS4NoDRM type movement to get this shit solved. All the fight stick owners and all the FFB wheel owners should collectively push Sony for answers and hopefully change.

There is a petition on change.org and a poll on the playstation blog. I doubt they're going to have an impact, but its something.
 
Security is serious now. With all the various ways to compromise a system's security barriers, you have to cover all forms of input into the ps4.

I don't think this is a cash grab at all. Just a way to secure the system from USB hacks
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
As a consumer, why should I care about their security? All I know is that they expect me to buy another 100-200 dollar wheel and fightstick, which seems insane when the interface is exactly the same.
 
Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

Such a bullshit answer. No games on PC really compare to Forza, GT, or even the more recent Driveclub. NFS? No. And before you ask, yes, I race on PC, yes, I have a wheel setup, yes, I have it hooked up with a DK2. It doesn't mean I don't want a wheel for my console counterparts.

Most PC games do not have the car selection and/or track selection that Forza or GT offer. I refuse to pay iRacing's covercharge but AC, LFS, and others like DiRT and such are great, but GT and Forza don't have a PC counterpart. It's like telling somebody who wants to play GTA to just go play Sleeping Dogs. Both are wonderful games but to compare them is futile, they each do their own thing very well while still being close in 'genre'.

I already miss Forza as I won't be purchasing an XB1 for a while but GT and DC I was really looking forward to playing.

And unless DC plays really well with a controller, looks like I won't be buying it or any other racing game. Honestly this kind of just sours my taste for the PS4, glad I have Gamefly.
 
Well, I got curious about how much longer we'd be living under Immersion's yoke. It seems patents are good for 20 years from the priority date, which is November 30, 1995 for the patents in question.

I'm penciling in GT7 for Christmas 2015. :p
 

Nhutty

Member
If I can't use my G27 on my PS4, then I might have to skip a whole generation of racing games.

Its a shame cause the G27 is a great wheel
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
So instead of expressing disappointment and having a discussion, maybe even tweeting Shu in process, we should just suck it up and go PC? Right, gotcha.

This is a thread about Logitech wheel support on PS4. It has nothing to do with PC. Bringing the PC into the discussion is counter-productive and doesn't help anyone.

Anyone who is keen enough to buy a decent wheel will already be more than aware of the PC potential.

Pointless, pointless comments.

sticking with the proprietary manufacturer who imposes draconian restrictions on which peripherals you use to play your own damn games is the definition of "sucking it up".
 
sticking with the proprietary manufacturer who imposes draconian restrictions on which peripherals you use to play your own damn games is the definition of "sucking it up".

That may be the case. It still does not explain the PC talk in a PS4 thread about wheel compatibility. PC has literally no relevance in this thread. The thread title isn't asking for PS4 alternatives.
 

Jilt

Member
I am wondering, If a race game on the PS4 is made for the use of a wheel, would that mean requirement to purchase one of the Thrustmaster wheels?

That would be an unlawfull deed? That is a non-competition, eliminating the rest.

Do not thnk Sony would go that far, so I think after a big release of the T300RS wheel, there is going to be a small notification that other wheels will be supported to.

At least, I hope so.....
 

amar212

Member
I am wondering, If a race game on the PS4 is made for the use of a wheel, would that mean requirement to purchase one of the Thrustmaster wheels?

That would be an unlawfull deed? That is a non-competition, eliminating the rest.

Do not thnk Sony would go that far, so I think after a big release of the T300RS wheel, there is going to be a small notification that other wheels will be supported to.

At least, I hope so.....

As long as the "other wheels" are not using TouchSense API/SDK they will probably work on PS4.

Only small problem is how 97% of "other wheels" are using TouchSense.

It will be interesting autumn once the cat gets truly out of the bag.
 

Mascot

Member
Man, this whole ongoing wheel debacle continues to annoy the shit out of me on a daily basis.

Well done Sony, well done Microsoft.
 

ps3ud0

Member
Well, I got curious about how much longer we'd be living under Immersion's yoke. It seems patents are good for 20 years from the priority date, which is November 30, 1995 for the patents in question.

I'm penciling in GT7 for Christmas 2015. :p
Well lets hope that barrier means the flood gates open for Touchsense enabled wheels working on the PS4. It could happen :)

ps3ud0 8)
 

Rocky

Banned
I still don't understand how a steering wheel controller needs a security chip for the PS4 and poses any kind of risk or threat. It's really confusing.
 
Wheels are I/O devices, who knows what's possible and Fanatec wheels for example fake a Logitech ID or something along those lines, no free rides for them again.

A chip protects Sony and those who hold a license.
 

le-seb

Member
But how can you hack something with a steering wheel?
I think the PS3 got broken into using a USB exploit.
It was not, my memory deserved me.

Sounds like Sony is.
Well, that's one way to look at the situation.
Why does the T500-RS is compatible with the PS4, then?

I still don't fully understand the situation, or why Thrustmaster wheels are covered but Fanatec and Logitech wheels aren't.
Because Thrustmaster wheels don't rely on Immersion patented technology, unlike Logitech ones.
Fanatec wheels seem to use some technology that depends on Logitech wheels' API.

To make their legacy wheels compatible with the PS4, Logitech would have to acquire new costly licenses to Immersion.
They just went out of the console business, so this won't happen, let it die.
 

amar212

Member
Sounds like Sony is.

I still don't fully understand the situation, or why Thrustmaster wheels are covered but Fanatec and Logitech wheels aren't.

There is no "fault" here, it is crazy outcome of decision by Logitech to quit the wheel business and Immersion Corporation being in position to force appliance of its patents based on platform where they are implemented.

Read my posts on previous pages.
 

P44

Member
As a consumer, why should I care about their security? All I know is that they expect me to buy another 100-200 dollar wheel and fightstick, which seems insane when the interface is exactly the same.

That's a bit dumb.

If their security is too weak, people can take down the whole system, if one person or enough people are determined enough. Which then bites you in the ass whilst you complain that PSN is down and you can't play anything online or whatever. You could say their system needs to be made secure, but then if anything that would probably just betray whether you've ever worked on a big codebase before. Bugs happen, chinks in the armour exist. It's better for everyone if Sony preempt this avenue for attack and make it harder for anything like the PSN outage of a few years ago.
 
I think the PS3 got broken into using a USB exploit.

Wasn't that using Sony's own keys though? It wasn't hacked in the tradition sense, the actual engineer tool was acquired which allowed the exploit. The PS3, and I may be a few years behind on this, was never actually "broken"?

Maybe I'm wrong though.
 
Ok amar I just read your post. What a nightmare but thanks for breaking it down, it sounds like you really did your homework.

I'd say the thread could use a new title but I'm not sure what it should be.
 

le-seb

Member
Maybe I'm wrong though.
No, I was.

The hack started by exploiting the OtherOS functionality.
But I'm still not sure how it evolved then.

I was confused by the fact that at some time, there was some USB dongle available, that held some 'backup manager' software (already signed with Sony's own keys, obviously).
 

amar212

Member
I'd say the thread could use a new title but I'm not sure what it should be.

I think the thread title is perfectly fine. There actually is a authentification chip and it probably exist because of security reasons.

However, I personaly think how the whole "incompatibity" issue is not a bi-product of chip existance, but that is only my opinion. I think Logitech does not want to communicate the real reasons - and I personally think how Immersion Corporation royalties are the real culprit. I have no 100% evidence for such claim, but from the all info I have gathered, it is the only logical answer.

We will see the development of this situation in the upcoming months.
 

Soi-Fong

Member
They've never been more important. You can't play iRacing with a controller. GT is best played with a Wheel. Playing racing games with a controller unless they are Mario Kart is terrible. PC racing sims are the best they ever have been and you don't want a controller for that.

Lol Such a weird question. They're still very much a thing! PCars with the Rift on PC, LFS with the Rift and AC all are 100x better with my G27.
 
So who is at fault here, Sony or Logitech?

If I'm reading this right, the problem is that someone needs to pay a lot of money to Immersion for the wheels to work, and the problem is that neither Sony or Logitech is really in a position to do so (Logitech is out of the console accessory business, and Sony doesn't necessarily have the millions of dollars to spend on something that would purely be for gamer goodwill).
 

androvsky

Member
Opening a security hole is such a great idea.

It's not a security issue. There's no sort of exploit that's solved by refusing to work with old racing wheels while every other USB device the PS4 supports is okay. I can plug a Logitech 3D Pro joystick into the PS4 and use it just fine in War Thunder, and the OS (for firmware updates) and Share Factory will happily read USB drives. The PS3 was hacked by cloning a Sony USB device that turned the system into service mode. As long as Sony was smart enough not to use a USB device to do that on the PS4 (like maybe use the proprietary AUX port on the back...), it won't happen again.
 
So should I still hold out for the nice China man to make a USB dongle... or sell the g27?

I don't think those things have ever worked as well as native support.

If it was my money I'd sell, its early enough in the generation to get value from the wheel before having to face this all again a few years down the line.

I did the very same thing and haven't really thought much about what I had before, having a lot of fun with my new stuff. It's your money of course.
 
i now need to sell my G25!
Or, you could wait 15 months until it's no longer covered by Immersion's patents, and Logitech can freely release the drivers they seem to have already written. ;)


If I'm reading this right, the problem is that someone needs to pay a lot of money to Immersion for the wheels to work, and the problem is that neither Sony or Logitech is really in a position to do so (Logitech is out of the console accessory business, and Sony doesn't necessarily have the millions of dollars to spend on something that would purely be for gamer goodwill).
Yeah, pretty much.
 

psn

Member
If I'm reading this right, the problem is that someone needs to pay a lot of money to Immersion for the wheels to work, and the problem is that neither Sony or Logitech is really in a position to do so (Logitech is out of the console accessory business, and Sony doesn't necessarily have the millions of dollars to spend on something that would purely be for gamer goodwill).

That's what most ppl here forget. It's Logitech who carries the responsibility for their wheels. We all paid Logitech hoping they'd be there when the ps4 releases. Suddenly they quit and now Sony has to pay millions of $ so we can use our old wheels?
 

KissVibes

Banned
That's a bit dumb.

If their security is too weak, people can take down the whole system, if one person or enough people are determined enough. Which then bites you in the ass whilst you complain that PSN is down and you can't play anything online or whatever. You could say their system needs to be made secure, but then if anything that would probably just betray whether you've ever worked on a big codebase before. Bugs happen, chinks in the armour exist. It's better for everyone if Sony preempt this avenue for attack and make it harder for anything like the PSN outage of a few years ago.

Again, why the fuck should that burden be passed onto the consumer in the form of having to buy another expensive peripheral when the old one is exactly the same and works exactly the same bar some security chip?
 
Logitech have done their job as far as they are concerned, the wheel works on compatible platforms and will continue to do so. Unless they've promised otherwise you shouldn't expect a fix from them.
 

le-seb

Member
Again, why the fuck should that burden be passed onto the consumer in the form of having to buy another expensive peripheral when the old one is exactly the same and works exactly the same bar some security chip?
The security chip, if it really exists, is not mandatory (otherwise no legacy USB peripheral would work on the PS4, which is NOT true, see the T500-RS for example).
But somebody has to pay Immersion big money, and neither Sony nor Logitech want to.

Driveclub without proper Logitech wheel support is just worthless to me.
FTFY, since DC has proper support for Thrustmaster wheels.
 

Freeman

Banned
We need Sony to openly and clearly address this issue, we have being mislead for more than a year now.

Driveclub without proper wheel support is just worthless to me.
 

P44

Member
Again, why the fuck should that burden be passed onto the consumer in the form of having to buy another expensive peripheral when the old one is exactly the same and works exactly the same bar some security chip?

Because there's nothing else to be done in this situation, there is no other answer if you wan't to avoid this risk, logically and it's better for consumers overall to take this hit.

Looking at worst case scenario's:

Either you risk the security problems, and you piss off everyone using your platform for however long it takes.

Or you piss off what is a really niche userbase of your console.

I know which one I would do, as a company.
 
That's what most ppl here forget. It's Logitech who carries the responsibility for their wheels. We all paid Logitech hoping they'd be there when the ps4 releases. Suddenly they quit and now Sony has to pay millions of $ so we can use our old wheels?
I suspect/hope Logitech will quickly reenter the console business once they're free from the restrictions of Immersion's patents.

Literally the only work that needs to be done to make the wheels work on PS4 is to update the drivers, and apparently they already did that, because one of the "compatible" Thrustmaster actually uses the Logitech drivers.

So they have the compatible hardware, they seem to have the compatible software. Payment to Immersion appears to be the only missing part of the equation, but in about 15 months, that will no longer be required. But at the same time, Logitech can't publicly say, "Yeah, it's all ready to go; we're just waiting until we can dodge the patents."
 
We need Sony to openly and clearly address this issue, we have being mislead for more than a year now.

Driveclub without proper wheel support is just worthless to me.

Most likely a coincidence but I pleaded with Major Nelson on behalf of fellow Forza/Fanatec's players to clear up the confusion surrounding our purchases and within a few days there he is doing exactly that.

Make some noise.
 
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