And I personally don't care to see it. Maybe if someone like David Simon was helming the show I would have some more faith.
No I live in the USA where a lot of people love doing that shit for racists and bigots.
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HBO orders alternate universe Civil War drama [update: interview w/ producers]
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And I personally don't care to see it. Maybe if someone like David Simon was helming the show I would have some more faith.
No I live in the USA where a lot of people love doing that shit for racists and bigots.
finowns
Member
TV Shows?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Depends how honest the portrayal of slavery is. Show the brutality of it. To the bone. The fear, the rape, the incest, the mutilation, the humiliation. Don't sugar coat it to give me a 'relatable white slave owner'. They were evil. Every last slave owning person.
excelsiorlef
Member
Two of the Ex-Producers are but D&D whose idea this was, and whose show this is are not.
No I don't think they're racist. No idea why you asked that.
No the populace at large.
Good me neither. Hey, I understand the worries, but I don't understand how people have already made up their minds on how it will be. But it's okay, I'm not trying to argue that everyone should be excited about this. I'm not here to sell the show.
Absolutely, I'd have more faith in Simon too.
Agreed, they don't have spotless track record.
excelsiorlef
Member
Because it's the GoT guys, because it's the GoT guys doing this in light of all that has happened since November 2016.
The GoT guys are literally known for when in doubt thrown in a new rape scene for character development.
Whompa02
Member
I asked because you mentioned their track record of stiffing black people. I then asked you if you thought it was due to some sort of racist tendencies, especially considering the context of this show.
Conciliator
Banned
Yeah, it sounds like heavy stuff and they gotta be real careful with the tone. I'll withhold judgement, though.
exmachina64
Banned
Someone doesn't watch network television.
AuthenticM
Member
But then you run into the issue of showing, as has been done countless times before, black people being brutalized. Aren't you tired of seeing that?
excelsiorlef
Member
I mentioned no such thing, I said they have a track record of being exploitative and shlocky.
Marmaladefire
Member
This is the problem! This is the best case scenario. But why do we need more explicit premium cable envisioning of black fear, black rape, incest, mutilation and humiliation? Why is that the only way white people seem to be able to even slightly humanize blacks. Why are these the only "meaty" roles out there for black performers? Why does an alternate universe where slavers "won" (even more so then their lasting impression IRL) need to exist to remind people that this was fucking despicable? It's just profiting on black suffering, the effects of which have shaped the lives of every person in this country to this day. Are they going to air it back to back with "Comfort Women" too?
Whompa02
Member
What else have they done? I never read either of their books, but Game of Thrones at least is under the HBO umbrella, so you should expect some more fringe/avant-garde content. Lot of shock value stuff. Probably what keeps them on top. This controversial new show definitely got a discussion going.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yes and I think lots of shock stuff is wrong for this subject matter in our current climate.
family_guy
Member
And this could just be torture porn that racist people get off of.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I mean those types already got websites for that. They literally show dead black people and make jokes and celebrate. So yea, I don't see the point of the show. We all know what an alternate universe Civil War drama would be.
The most hardcore ones just become cops.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I like this Roger Ebert quote: It's not what a movie is about, it's how it is about it.
It's how I approach everything I watch, regardless of subject matter. So, we will see.
It's how I approach everything I watch, regardless of subject matter. So, we will see.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Well then fuck Roger Ebert, lol. He ain't had no skin in this game.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
It's a valid (and open-minded) approach to a great many things. The GoT folks could churn out a tone-deaf dumpster fire that the wrong people end up embracing, or they put together the right team, and do something interesting and unexpected that we haven't seen before.
I'll give it a shot unless it ends up looking unsalvageable.
Yeah, American History X is a problem looking back.
Even in a best case scenario I don't see how a show like this could be truly thoughtful or nuanced in any meaningful way. Especially under the helm of David and DB.
It's just a really dumb setting and idea, even with the best of intentions, which I very much doubt here.
MitHC already skirts good taste and is helped by the fact that in reality and concept, for the most part, Jews and other "sub-humans" weren't strung up and exterminated daily on every street corner for all to see, rather it was done in secret and removed from the public eye mostly because it was abhorrent and they knew it. Which lets them gloss over those facts and events in the show for the most part. Not to mention placing the show in America removed it from the areas of their greatest atrocities, giving them yet another an out to gloss over those facts and mainly focus on the fascist nature of the regimes and their hypothetical conflicts. Plus at least it has the illusion of asking the question of how Americans might react and conform to living under such totalitarian regimes, not that it amounts to much.
They already do a shit job in the show of actually portraying the truly perverse nature of Japanese and Nazi ideologies of racial supremacy and hierarchy. So no surprise it's just a mediocre show at best with absolutely terrible main characters, an underwhelming plot and only a few remotely interesting supporting characters. Any glimmers of interesting insights or commentary is drowned out by the banality of the rest of the show. It only tracks because of the spectacle of the setting and the sheer morbid fascination it illicits in viewers. Not because it's actually well written or does anything truly interesting or thoughtful.
I haven't watched The Handmaid's Tale, but that is at least in premise is taking real world issues that women face and then recontextualizing them in a hypercharged setting for dramatic effect and not actually based on any reality we have experienced before but what might come.
Plus The Handmaid's Tale and MitHC both were books first written by highly accomplished and intelligent writers with the purpose of examining greater issues in extreme settings for effect before becoming commercialized shows for entertainment and profit. The shows may not convey the nuance and intellect of the original works, but at least the initial genesis did. Philosophical and intellectual DB and David are not. They make shocking and titillating TV.
A show about the Confederacy winning and slaving remaining, and expanding, is just fucking dumb. There's no intelligent commentary to be found there. It's just spectacle. A shocking and provocative setting that seems edgy and pushing the envelope.
Honestly what does some fictional future offer that the actual historical setting of slavery doesn't already? What does this accomplish that a thousand other works set in the actual historical time of slavery haven't been able to?
It might, might, be one thing if racial stereotypes/prejudice and institutional racism weren't still a massive problem in American society today, but they are. So this just feels incredibly exploitative as a result. I don't think this will definitely become some wet dream for racists and bigots longing for the good ol' days, or something that will soften the image of slavery and slave owners to the general public. Though it could if really mishandled. But I do think it's just tasteless and exploitative simply because it is provocative and divisive and they know it and they know that will get buzz because of it. And that's bad enough.
It's just a really dumb setting and idea, even with the best of intentions, which I very much doubt here.
MitHC already skirts good taste and is helped by the fact that in reality and concept, for the most part, Jews and other "sub-humans" weren't strung up and exterminated daily on every street corner for all to see, rather it was done in secret and removed from the public eye mostly because it was abhorrent and they knew it. Which lets them gloss over those facts and events in the show for the most part. Not to mention placing the show in America removed it from the areas of their greatest atrocities, giving them yet another an out to gloss over those facts and mainly focus on the fascist nature of the regimes and their hypothetical conflicts. Plus at least it has the illusion of asking the question of how Americans might react and conform to living under such totalitarian regimes, not that it amounts to much.
They already do a shit job in the show of actually portraying the truly perverse nature of Japanese and Nazi ideologies of racial supremacy and hierarchy. So no surprise it's just a mediocre show at best with absolutely terrible main characters, an underwhelming plot and only a few remotely interesting supporting characters. Any glimmers of interesting insights or commentary is drowned out by the banality of the rest of the show. It only tracks because of the spectacle of the setting and the sheer morbid fascination it illicits in viewers. Not because it's actually well written or does anything truly interesting or thoughtful.
I haven't watched The Handmaid's Tale, but that is at least in premise is taking real world issues that women face and then recontextualizing them in a hypercharged setting for dramatic effect and not actually based on any reality we have experienced before but what might come.
Plus The Handmaid's Tale and MitHC both were books first written by highly accomplished and intelligent writers with the purpose of examining greater issues in extreme settings for effect before becoming commercialized shows for entertainment and profit. The shows may not convey the nuance and intellect of the original works, but at least the initial genesis did. Philosophical and intellectual DB and David are not. They make shocking and titillating TV.
A show about the Confederacy winning and slaving remaining, and expanding, is just fucking dumb. There's no intelligent commentary to be found there. It's just spectacle. A shocking and provocative setting that seems edgy and pushing the envelope.
Honestly what does some fictional future offer that the actual historical setting of slavery doesn't already? What does this accomplish that a thousand other works set in the actual historical time of slavery haven't been able to?
It might, might, be one thing if racial stereotypes/prejudice and institutional racism weren't still a massive problem in American society today, but they are. So this just feels incredibly exploitative as a result. I don't think this will definitely become some wet dream for racists and bigots longing for the good ol' days, or something that will soften the image of slavery and slave owners to the general public. Though it could if really mishandled. But I do think it's just tasteless and exploitative simply because it is provocative and divisive and they know it and they know that will get buzz because of it. And that's bad enough.
Yeah this concept is kind of gross to me. I don't want to see an imaginary world where slavery is still a thing in America. I don't care how the subject matter is handled. As a POC it kind of gives me chills to think about all the ways this might play out or the fact that it's even a thing. It's like a tv show where the whole premise is rape is legal and everyone is saying "but you haven't seen it yet, give it a chance." No thanks.
TheCochese
Banned
So, Fatherland?
That was a good book and movie, but it dealt with the crimes remaining hidden.
GOT is what it is because of the template they are using. Like I can't see an idea like this built from nowhere being handled properly by DnD
Knowing HBO they will want a sex scene/orgy/ slave master taboo shit in the first half of the pilot .
Like I can see how trash this could be from a distance with no real nuance.
Knowing HBO they will want a sex scene/orgy/ slave master taboo shit in the first half of the pilot .
Like I can see how trash this could be from a distance with no real nuance.
I wouldn't worry about a character on a D&D show being relatable.
If slavery is legal, rape is legal.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I can't speak for his partner, but David Benioff is an excellent writer. Read City of Thieves for evidence of that.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
@topherflorence
if hbo is really going to make a godawful show about confederate slaves in an alt-2017 let me save you the trouble here is what happens
if hbo is really going to make a godawful show about confederate slaves in an alt-2017 let me save you the trouble here is what happens
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
@topherflorence
if hbo is really going to make a godawful show about confederate slaves in an alt-2017 let me save you the trouble here is what happens
This kind of reactionarily faux-socially conscious approach to art is much "grosser" than the possibility that a show about a sensitive subject may end up being bad, tbh.
Ebert's statement earlier in the thread is correct - a show is not bad because of WHAT it is about, but how it is about it.
I suspect the show will be bad, because fuck HBO, but the notion that art is "beneath" certain subjects because of current political and social concerns is rotten to the core.
Yeah that's what bothers me about this in its conception. It seems like it's trying to tie into modern concerns (role of corporations) into alternate history, but I don't see based on (the admittedly little we know) how they figure American slavery as envisioned by the Confederacy was supposed to persist into the 21st century. So it seems like they're leaning into Black Mirror-level "yeah this makes no sense, but roll with it" territory.
excelsiorlef
Member
And umm that's what is being lampooned in that image.
There's literally no reason to believe D&D have the knowledge, skill or tact to pull off the "how you do it" properly.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
That's fine (although the extent to which they will defer to their writers is currently unknown), but there are people acting like the very concept is unworthy and problematic (see: "Fuck Ebert"), or suggesting that somehow it's worse to do it because Trump is president, or other assorted nonsense that has nothing to do with whether or not the show will actually be any good. Moreover, a bad, tasteless TV show is pretty unlikely to have much of an impact that not watching it won't fix.
AV Club: Can we just stop fantasizing about the South winning the Civil War?
I think Underground Airlines (which I loved) was the exception that proved the rule. It's a topic that has been well trod and offers no value to our current society. Fuck, I saw a Confederate flag hanging on my parent's neighbor's house last week.
The Confederacy lost the actual war but it appears that it won the hearts and minds war.
I think Underground Airlines (which I loved) was the exception that proved the rule. It's a topic that has been well trod and offers no value to our current society. Fuck, I saw a Confederate flag hanging on my parent's neighbor's house last week.
The Confederacy lost the actual war but it appears that it won the hearts and minds war.
Generalpsyduck
Banned
Do not want. David and Dan fucking suck, I don't trust them one bit to handle this well at all. GoT is a decent/good show in spite of them, not because of them. I can't imagine them coming up with anything of worth without good source material to work with.
Also this was my first thought.
SirMossyBloke
Member
What a horrible time in people's lives to think of this concept.
I mean, it's a horrible concept at any point personally, but they couldn't have picked a worse point in time.
I mean, it's a horrible concept at any point personally, but they couldn't have picked a worse point in time.
excelsiorlef
Member
Doing it in this current climate I argue is part and parcel with the concept of "How to do it". When ties in to how
That paragraph you quoted is 100% bang on
Mister Wolf
Member
Thomas Motherfucking Jefferson.
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