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Official Xbox 360 Madden '12 Online Franchise Thread OT2 Mr Peyton Goes To Washington

C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
FrenchMovieTheme said:
if the majority of the league has a problem with it then it's a problem. as for safety play, i'm not sure what you don't understand about being able to cover a ridiculous amount of field with one guy.

you want to look at boxscores and stats to prove DT play is a problem but you don't realize that a lot of the things that someone can do with a safety and his roaming ability would NOT show in a box score. things like:

1. run support where you dont get the tackle but change the RB's path
2. pass support where people won't throw to a receiver who should be open because you can cover so much ground so quickly
3. passes that are simply knocked down instead of picked

i won't shoot down any ideas on how to make the league better but i usually don't like so many restrictions on gameplay
Click to expand...

My counter argument is that while the safetys CAN cover more of the field than usual, user controlling that position and making the wrong move can very easily lead to a touchdown. The risk/reward is almost even.

IF you fuck up while playing DT, 95% of the time your problem can be covered up fairly easy by a linebacker or another lineman. High reward, low risk.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
I've been saying it for the longest, but LB is the least problematic position on D as far as cheese goes. You can't manually blitz on passes, so you lose the instant rush like you gain with DE/DTs, & they are no where near as fast as Safeties, so you can really only cover one area of the field.

I know some people hate the manual blitzing on run plays, but compared to the problems the other 2 positions bring to the table, LB is by far the least offensive.
 
T

TheCrow

Member
I play safety with huge risk/reward in mind. I will leave half the field open deep all game and cover whoever I feel is the primary target or try and stop the run. Even then I still give yards to short yardage plays or in middle.

When I play against user dlineman there is very little I can do stop them from destroying the cpu and getting free pressure. However, when I play against people who use lb or secondary I have some control over how much of an impact he can have. I can not throw the ball his way or take advantage of his mistakes by making big plays. Even when a user dlineman fails it's not something I can easily take advantage of.
Ramirez said:
I've been saying it for the longest, but LB is the least problematic position on D as far as cheese goes. You can't manually blitz on passes, so you lose the instant rush like you gain with DE/DTs, & they are no where near as fast as Safeties, so you can really only cover one area of the field.

I know some people hate the manual blitzing on run plays, but compared to the problems the other 2 positions bring to the table, LB is by far the least offensive.
Click to expand...
I always get fast LBs (85 or 90+ speed) so they'll still be able to cover a lot of ground. But then again I primarily run 4-2-5 all game.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
TheCrow said:
I always get fast LBs (85 or 90+ speed) so they'll still be able to cover a lot of ground. But then again I primarily run 4-2-5 all game.
Click to expand...

This is true, I could cover a lot of ground with Timmons, but if I hesitated for a second, a good TE would burn me. Safeties can literally be on one side of the field, and still have time to cover two guys on the opposite side, it's ridiculous.

CB has these amazing CBs who lock your WRs down, then he free roams with a Safety taking away your TE and still being able to help the CBs, and he thinks he's some god at user D, no wonder he doesn't see a problem with Safeties!

C'mon son.
 
B

bluemax

Banned
I hated playing user controlled Safety players more than user controlled DT players.

I had an easier time adjust my game plan to not get sacked by Cooper Fitzgerald than I ever did when playing against someone like CB, Rors or DM.

I know I did a box score investigation on Fitz at one point and the bulk of his sacks came in one game and the rest of his numbers were relatively normal.

Like FMT said, there's just too many things that user controlled safeties can do that don't show up in simple numbers.

I've attempted to play other positions on defense before and I'm just so bad at them that I always go back to D-Line. If D-Line play was banned and I was in the league I'd probably just play defense Konex style and let the CPU do all the work.


Ramirez said:
I've been saying it for the longest, but LB is the least problematic position on D as far as cheese goes. You can't manually blitz on passes, so you lose the instant rush like you gain with DE/DTs, & they are no where near as fast as Safeties, so you can really only cover one area of the field.

I know some people hate the manual blitzing on run plays, but compared to the problems the other 2 positions bring to the table, LB is by far the least offensive.
Click to expand...

Good manual LBer players are just so much better at shooting the gap and run stuffing than the CPU. Against guys like you and FMT who have elite LBers and are good at controlling them I tend to know that I'm fucked on the ground. I think I improved against it some last year, but there were so many times where I wanted to throw my controller because a manually controlled LBer was in my backfield faster than I had time to think.
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
TheCrow said:
I play safety with huge risk/reward in mind. I will leave half the field open deep all game and cover whoever I feel is the primary target or try and stop the run. Even then I still give yards to short yardage plays or in middle.

When I play against user dlineman there is very little I can do stop them from destroying the cpu and getting free pressure. However, when I play against people who use lb or secondary I have some control over how much of an impact he can have. I can not throw the ball his way or take advantage of his mistakes by making big plays. Even when a user dlineman fails it's not something I can easily take advantage of.

I always get fast LBs (85 or 90+ speed) so they'll still be able to cover a lot of ground. But then again I primarily run 4-2-5 all game.
Click to expand...

Thats my general feeling on it.

I probably play more LB than Safety these days (although that may have been me trying to cover up my huge hole at LB in madden 12), but if someone wanted to game play to attack me at FS, they could certainly do it. And they have a decent chance of making that work. Hell when FMT would play safety all i ever did was look at my WR's on his side and attacked him. and it usually worked.

I cant really gameplay to attack user DT's. I can run screens or draws to attempt to, but there are multiple people behind to cover up mistakes. The safety will almost always be the last line of defense.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
but manual blitzing with a LB on a 1st down run can be as harmful and unstoppable as a sack. there is literally nothing you can do about a LB blitzing on a run play. your FB will not account for him.... ever.

at least with DT play, i can hot route my RB to stay in and block. i have never felt "helpless" against a player using DT. splat had a few sacks on me in our games but they always came in 5 WR routes. i honestly don't think enough people hot route blockers in. on what planet does an NFL team send 5 receivers out on every play? doesn't happen.

i think a better thing to do than ban DT play is to educate people on how to play properly and how to combat things
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
CB has these amazing CBs who lock your WRs down, then he free roams with a Safety taking away your TE and still being able to help the CBs, and he thinks he's some god at user D, no wonder he doesn't see a problem with Safeties!
Click to expand...

Ive been doing this since 2005 son. I didnt always have amazing corners. I had Lito Sheppard, Sheldon Brown, Ellis Hobbs, and Joselio Hanson for a LONG time. This is the first year ive had a DB situation like this and as i said before ive played LB more than anything this year. I worked hard to keep my good DB's in house, draft new good ones, and keep that dandy under a salary cap and 53 guys on my roster while you middled around with 38 guys on your team to keep all of your elite defenders that gift you fumbles multiple times a game.

Educate yourself before you start firing blindly at me.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
FrenchMovieTheme said:
but manual blitzing with a LB on a 1st down run can be as harmful and unstoppable as a sack. there is literally nothing you can do about a LB blitzing on a run play. your FB will not account for him.... ever.
Click to expand...

I said I know some people hate that, but it is the lesser of the 3 evils in my eyes. As Luke as pointed out many a time, people who do manually blitz with a LB usually overshoot their gap, leaving a huge cut back lane.

You act as if Sheppard & Brown were the dregs of Madden CBs, give me a break. I never recall you being the terror that you were this season with manual D, don't act as if that secondary didn't lend to that. Nice of you to bring up the 38 man roster when I made it to another SB with a regular roster as well, speaking of educating yourself...
 
L

LukeSmith

Member
Ramirez said:
I said I know some people hate that, but it is the lesser of the 3 evils in my eyes. As Luke as pointed out many a time, people who do manually blitz with a LB usually overshoot their gap, leaving a huge cut back lane.
Click to expand...

Single Back 3 WR HB Dive and Peyton Scrambling = Ramirez Kryptonite
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
Ramirez said:
I said I know some people hate that, but it is the lesser of the 3 evils in my eyes. As Luke as pointed out many a time, people who do manually blitz with a LB usually overshoot their gap, leaving a huge cut back lane.
Click to expand...

the last 2 times i played you, you basically hit my RB almost as he got the ball. i agree with you: all of the positions have a risk reward. contrary to CB's believe, playing DT is low risk low reward.

lets say you're playing DT on the left and your opponent runs to the right. you're worthless on that play. lets say you play DT and take an inside move but your opponent runs to your outside. worthless player. there are other examples but i just can't categorize DT play as high risk, low reward. if you look at it strictly from what you are doing and not what you are losing by playing Safety/LB (better run support, adjusting to routes on the fly because you're not an AI guy) it is a risk to play DT and have no effect on the offense on the majority of the plays
 
R

Ramirez

Member
I think most people's problem with DL play is the stupidity of the OL. That video Wellie had where his DT just snaked around Pouncey while he just stood there, hilarious. I realize LBs can do the same thing, but at least on passing plays you don't have to worry about your OL derping to a manual LB blitzing. Manual LBs can also bite on PA's, leaving an entire section of the field wide open. Doing PA against the DL players was pretty much suicide.
 
N

Nightz

Member
So some people don't like user controlled d-linemen, some don't like user controlled LB's, and the rest don't like user controlled safeties.

Let's just all play user controlled CB's. Problem solved.
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
Ramirez said:
You act as if Sheppard & Brown were the dregs of Madden CBs, give me a break. I never recall you being the terror that you were this season with manual D, don't act as if that secondary didn't lend to that. Nice of you to bring up the 38 man roster when I made it to another SB with a regular roster as well, speaking of educating yourself...
Click to expand...

Yes, you made the superbowl in a year that no one gave a shit, half the AFC was a CPU, and you took an easy sub in the playoffs when smokey had to bow out. Congrats.

And yes ive always been the terror i am on D. I was playing even better as a Safety on the Xbox/PS2 Madden. And i believe i set the turnover differential record in Madden 10 one year.

So....yeah

If only 49ers-age.com was still up! My glory was splattered all over that website.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
Ramirez said:
I think most people's problem with DL play is the stupidity of the OL. That video Wellie had where his DT just snaked around Pouncey while he just stood there, hilarious. I realize LBs can do the same thing, but at least on passing plays you don't have to worry about your OL derping to a manual LB blitzing. Manual LBs can also bite on PA's, leaving an entire section of the field wide open. Doing PA against the DL players was pretty much suicide.
Click to expand...

but i can say the samething about the defense too. i call a great defensive play and my stupid fucking linebacker does nothing with the ball coming right at him. we obviously wouldn't ban slants because they're being abused since the defensive AI won't react from time to time.

these guys aren't getting pressure 100% of the time
 
R

Ramirez

Member
CB3 said:
Yes, you made the superbowl in a year that no one gave a shit, half the AFC was a CPU, and you took an easy sub in the playoffs when smokey had to bow out. Congrats.

And yes ive always been the terror i am on D. I was playing even better as a Safety on the Xbox/PS2 Madden. And i believe i set the turnover differential record in Madden 10 one year.

So....yeah
Click to expand...

Oh, so no one gave a crap? Why were we even playing then? I'm sure if you had of beaten Bob in tiebreakers you would have suddenly cared. Citing FMT as an easy sub is hilarious, year in and year out one of the best players in the league, usually with one of the worst teams in the game.

these guys aren't getting pressure 100% of the time
Click to expand...

I beg to differ, but eh. They're not getting sacks 100% of the time, but they're getting significant pressure on over half of all plays easily.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
Ramirez said:
Oh, so no one gave a crap? Why were we even playing then? I'm sure if you had of beaten Bob in tiebreakers you would have suddenly cared. Citing FMT as an easy sub is hilarious, year in and year out one of the best players in the league, usually with one of the worst teams in the game.
Click to expand...

lol don't let CB try to ruffle your feathers! he mad that he never won a chip
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
Ramirez said:
Oh, so no one gave a crap? Why were we even playing then? I'm sure if you had of beaten Bob in tiebreakers you would have suddenly cared. Citing FMT as an easy sub is hilarious, year in and year out one of the best players in the league, usually with one of the worst teams in the game.
Click to expand...

FMT hasnt been a threat since i put him down as the Cardinals (props to him for accepting me as a sub) He might cite a different turning point but he would admit himself his game took a nosedive.

And i absolutely got lazy in that final year. I could only get up for the big battles. Overlooked the smaller ones and it showed. Between that and the injuries i mentally checked out.

If i had truely cared i would not have subbed for people the final two weeks and won games that cost me a spot in the playoffs.

lol don't let CB try to ruffle your feathers! he mad that he never won a chip
Click to expand...

My trophy case is full of Defense player of the year awards!
 
R

Ramirez

Member
FrenchMovieTheme said:
lol don't let CB try to ruffle your feathers! he mad that he never won a chip
Click to expand...

m2LCU.gif


Didn't you finish 11-5? That's you mentally checking out? LOL, you're killing me over here.
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
hard to counter a team with 38 guys!

But enough of that. This is why i asked in my initial post to not take personal shots at guys right now. It takes away from the discussion at hand. You lasted all of 5 posts before throwing that out the window, Ram.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
CB3 said:
hard to counter a team with 38 guys!

But enough of that. This is why i asked in my initial post to not take personal shots at guys right now. It takes away from the discussion at hand. You lasted all of 5 posts before throwing that out the window, Ram.
Click to expand...

I was just pointing out why you didn't see a problem with manual S, that's all.
 
S

Splat

Member
Ramirez, on the EA site, what options are in the dropdown in the top right "Franchise Actions" ? That's where I can choose to leave it.
 
W

Wellington

BAAAALLLINNN'
Ok so far the negatives against DL play:

1) It's too easy to play and doesn't affect the game like a good user S or LB could.

2) it's too easy to get instant pressure.

What else?
 
L

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
Wellington said:
Ok so far the negatives against DL play:

1) It's too easy to play and doesn't affect the game like a good user S or LB could.

2) it's too easy to get instant pressure.

What else?
Click to expand...


I think banning play of any position is going overboard.


Splat said:
Your should be able to drop from the franchise from the website.
Click to expand...

Commish cannot, needs to be in game.
 
G

GCQuinton

Member
levious said:
I think banning play of any position is going overboard.
Click to expand...

Same. I figure it's the same as any other user-controlled spot on the field=adjust your gameplan to accommodate. I think twice before I throw when I see someone playing a safety. If I'm playing someone who uses the DL (like me, and I'm very average at it), I do what I can to try to get the play off quicker and take them out the picture.
 
DCX

DCX

DCX
Manual play from LB or Safety makes play action effective. Gives some.realism that trick plays can work. The AI doesn't get tricked which renders play action and pump faking useless.

DCX
 
B

Birdman02

Member
Wellington said:
Ok so far the negatives against DL play:

1) It's too easy to play and doesn't affect the game like a good user S or LB could.

2) it's too easy to get instant pressure.

What else?
Click to expand...

I agree with the 1st one, but I don't remember ever having a problem with anyone getting instant pressure. That could be because the Saints have a pretty good o-line. I don't remember playing you this year, so I didn't get a chance to see what everyone else seemed to be bitching about.

I think d-line play is as close to easy-mode defense as you can get, but I don't mind playing against it. Sure, they might shut down my run game, but passing against an AI defense is almost automatic if you pay any attention at all.
 
B

Birdman02

Member
Ramirez said:
The people who had all of the sacks actually weren't that problematic in the run game, it's in the passing game where it is whack, at least for me. Hard to pass when your OL doesn't block them.
Click to expand...

The two guys talked about the most were Wellie and Splat. Like I said, I don't remember playing Wellie, but Jahri Evans basically shut down Splat's DT. I'm pretty sure he also held GCQ's guy in check. I can't think of any other DT users. The only time I had issues with pressure is when I got behind early and completely abandoned the running game. The Saints line was pretty good though (especially at G and C), so maybe I was just lucky that they actually held blocks.
 
L

LiveWire

Member
Neither should be banned. It's EA's fault we have to deal with this shit. As FMT said, DL play is low risk, low reward. As CB said, safety play is high risk, high reward--except that the warp-to-the-ball-to-deflect/intercept animation by CBs that have been beaten by the WR, and jumping no-look deflections/interceptions by LBs, reduce a lot of the risk of playing the position. The window for completing a pass against the average user controlled safety is a lot smaller than it should be.
 
G

goldlion054

Member
levious said:
I think banning play of any position is going overboard.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Its hard enough to stop an offense in this game most of the time, but making someone play a position they arn't comfortable with (such as safety or linebacker) can make it even worse. If people want to play DT and get cheesed by a TE matched up against a cpu defender, let them. I think its silly to ban position play because people can't learn to gameplan around it. I know better than to throw in the direction of CB's safety play and to be more wary of pressure and look for the nickel and dime attack against Wellington. Defense is already at such a disadvantage in this game, why make it even more crippled for some players?
 
S

Smokey

Member
Are we going to get a DIII session going tonight or is that probably a no go due to 98% chance of servers being down? I got the game and the strat guide (LOL) and getting more hyped to try it out after reading some of it.

This is also my first Blizzard game...ever. I don't know how battle.net works or anything i'm as blind as you can be
 
T

TheCrow

Member
Ramirez said:
The people who had all of the sacks actually weren't that problematic in the run game, it's in the passing game where it is whack, at least for me. Hard to pass when your OL doesn't block them.
Click to expand...
I just think there is something wrong when one player has 35 sacks in a year. But I guess I'm one of the few who see it that way.
 
L

LukeSmith

Member
Smokey said:
Are we going to get a DIII session going tonight or is that probably a no go due to 98% chance of servers being down? I got the game and the strat guide (LOL) and getting more hyped to try it out after reading some of it.

This is also my first Blizzard game...ever. I don't know how battle.net works or anything i'm as blind as you can be
Click to expand...

I'm so disappointed that this is your first Blizzard game. I imagine some number of us will be on tonight, servers pending


TheCrow said:
I just think there is something wrong when one player has 35 sacks in a year. But I guess I'm one of the few who see it that way.
Click to expand...

I think in Wellie's case it was over 30 sacks for multiple seasons from the same position with different players, none of which were user controlled.

I never played Splat, but it seemed like he was the one controlling the DT, right? LJ was a monster at DT, too.
 
F

FrenchMovieTheme

Member
TheCrow said:
I just think there is something wrong when one player has 35 sacks in a year. But I guess I'm one of the few who see it that way.
Click to expand...

There is also something wrong with throwing 70 ints in a season or 12 in a game. You are concerned with sacks because the tangible numbers. There are non tangible issues with safety and lb play that you don't see in a box score so you don't have a problem with it
 
T

TheCrow

Member
LukeSmith said:
I think in Wellie's case it was over 30 sacks for multiple seasons from the same position with different players, none of which were user controlled.

I never played Splat, but it seemed like he was the one controlling the DT, right? LJ was a monster at DT, too.
Click to expand...
With wellie, it's something he figured out that makes the cpu d-line play out of their mind. Von Miller is a great pass rusher and would get 10+ sacks a year. I thought that was great but compared to whoever wellie had at DE he's garbage.

And I don't take sanjuro's int games seriously. I hope no one does.
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
LOL INT's thrown in a game dont even compare. Thats just people sucking.. You Livewire and Sanjuro were the only ones to ever do that.
 
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