I don't really get this. All of the other countries outside of the EU seem to manage. In fact, there are advantages to not negotiating as a large bloc along with disadvantages obviously.
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UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29
- Thread starter chadskin
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I don't really get this. All of the other countries outside of the EU seem to manage. In fact, there are advantages to not negotiating as a large bloc along with disadvantages obviously.
TeamLeftMatch
Member
AHA-Lambda
Member
Well the place I work at is shitting itself I'll say that much
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well, you appear to have everything in perspective.
JimiNutz
Banned
If, and that's a big IF, we manage to somehow still have access to the single market then I think everything will be fine - the rest of the EU know this as well, which is why they will never agree to it.
I voted remain and am not anti Europe or free movement but I must admit that some of the things I've read about the EU since the referendum have left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. The EU seem to want the UK to fail outside of the EU and I don't think that's the right attitude to have. Whether we are in the EU or not, a healthy UK economy is good for the global economy and therefore good for the EU as well. Hopefully reason prevails and they allow us access to the single market (for a fair price obviously).
I voted remain and am not anti Europe or free movement but I must admit that some of the things I've read about the EU since the referendum have left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. The EU seem to want the UK to fail outside of the EU and I don't think that's the right attitude to have. Whether we are in the EU or not, a healthy UK economy is good for the global economy and therefore good for the EU as well. Hopefully reason prevails and they allow us access to the single market (for a fair price obviously).
The Maverick
Member
The UK wants the UK to fail. EU just giving them what they asked for.
Im just saying "its a new start" doesn't really answer anything and not that brexit is comparable to a zombie apocalypse lol.
The point is anything can be considered a new start and that it doesn't qualify anything.
Indeed. It's in the much greater interest for the EU and the western world as a whole for the UK to suffer dramatically for their choice. Hopefully the EU countries can make that happen and siphon as much talent and resources away as possible.
AHA-Lambda
Member
This.
Still hoping for Scottish independence but if that doesn't happen my new job has opportunities abroad
Miles Quaritch
Member
You believe that the EU owes the UK a good deal?
Why? Did the EU ask us to leave? Did they give us notice and thereby owe us something in return for leaving?
Stop with the exceptionalism bullshit. It's what caused this fucking mess in the first place. The UK isn't special and it doesn't deserve a good deal. It will get the deal its negotiators can get, if they get a bad deal, blame the negotiators, not the EU.
Wish I was brave enough.
Dearly wish I do.
If it was just me, or just me and my wife, I honestly think we'd be gone already.
But we've 3 young kids..... not sure if I could do it
Charles Brandon
Member
The biggest single driver for EU anti-britishism is as a deterrent to other countries. It has been said time and time again that it should not be possible for a nation to leave the EU and do better outside.
my thoughts on this are:
1) OK but there must be some middle ground between Britain getting completely fucked to the economic benefit of no-one and Brtain getting whatever it wants. Possibly that Britain gets full access to the EU and customs union, retains some element of free movement but with powers to curtail it if required (AKA 'control') and pays a chunk of cash big enough so that the EU can say to it's members "We sure showed them" because...
2) this is not a zero-sum game, what's bad for Brtain is also bad for Europe and there will be very large business concernes in France, Ireland, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands and elsewhere that are going to be hit hard by a no deal situation. Money talks.
3) I'm not sure I really buy this idea that the EU has to punish anyway. What is the EU if it relies on coercion and threats to keep its members in line? Surely they should want to be in the EU and if they don't want to be in it, then shake hands, let them go but lets all meet up for a drink and a laugh in a few months, keep in touch.. I think this is the wrong message to send to the other members. Stay with us or we'll fuck you over even if it hurts us to do it.
PdotMichael
Banned
Write it in bold letters on your forehead.
You guys don't deserve and no one owns you anything.
The entitlement of some people here is the reason you guys are now in that situation.
PJV3
Member
If you get divorced you can't say the ex is punishing you by not washing your underpants and refusing to fuck anymore.
The EU members have merely said the UK can't have it better than the members of the club, we have to get a worse deal out of the union or it will collapse.
Charles Brandon
Member
No, you get this into your thick head. This is people's lives you are talking about, 50% of us didn't vote for this and most of the other 50% were sold lies. No one is asking for a free ride. No one thinks the EU owes us anything. Get out of this mindset of adversity and antagonism and punishment , ignore what the politicians say and ask yourself do you really want to fuck over other people just like you, at your own cost, simply because some of them voted to leave the EU.
Seriously? If you think it's in anyone's interests for the UK to become some failed state you've no idea how the world economy works. This opinion astounds me. The UK voted to leave the EU, they didn't vote to kill your first born son.
Man, Quiche is being so chipper and optimistic about all of this. For y'all's sake I hope he's right. I must confess I'm rather less optimistic about this thing.
News (Tagesschau) claimed there's already 7.2% fewer exports from Germany to the UK compared to last year. May the gods have mercy upon all of us.
Afterwards, they will have to start from scratch instead of organically growing into those deals like the other small countries. After EU has possibly finished ripping out their desired chunks of flesh, they might not even find themselves in a particularly good economic situation, which makes negotiations harder. Especially given the time frame for any wide-ranging trading agreements. UK would need those deals, like, yesterday.
What are the specific advantages to being a small country instead of a large trading bloc in this context? Flexibility? Because that's pretty much the only thing I can imagine. The only thing is that such a large body is less flexible and less agile if things get really involved since it's still a bunch of loosely tied together countries.
A bigger market being more desirable from the viewpoint of the partner, more and better skilled/paid/rested negotiators doing better work (and given the potential profit for less money per country), less reliance on the resulting payout meaning less exploitable urgency... a trading bloc is superior in any other regard that I could think of. Granted, I'm just a lowly IT drone and have no clue about economics.
News (Tagesschau) claimed there's already 7.2% fewer exports from Germany to the UK compared to last year. May the gods have mercy upon all of us.
The biggest problem is that UK hasn't needed to negotiate on that scale and in that particular area for a long time now and thus has to scramble to get back the expertise and staff. Keep in mind these things can take up to a decade to nail down.
Afterwards, they will have to start from scratch instead of organically growing into those deals like the other small countries. After EU has possibly finished ripping out their desired chunks of flesh, they might not even find themselves in a particularly good economic situation, which makes negotiations harder. Especially given the time frame for any wide-ranging trading agreements. UK would need those deals, like, yesterday.
What are the specific advantages to being a small country instead of a large trading bloc in this context? Flexibility? Because that's pretty much the only thing I can imagine. The only thing is that such a large body is less flexible and less agile if things get really involved since it's still a bunch of loosely tied together countries.
A bigger market being more desirable from the viewpoint of the partner, more and better skilled/paid/rested negotiators doing better work (and given the potential profit for less money per country), less reliance on the resulting payout meaning less exploitable urgency... a trading bloc is superior in any other regard that I could think of. Granted, I'm just a lowly IT drone and have no clue about economics.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Given the results of the referendum and handing the Tories more power and reason to destroy the NHS, I wouldn't be so sure.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's not the job of the EU to care for the best interest of the UK. If things make sense for both sides then it will also happen.
But it's quite insulting to cry that the EU isn't nice enough to the UK.
You can made a trade deal tailored to your needs without having to take 26 other countries into account who have a veto.
Who said that? It's in the interests of the western world to have a strong EU especially as the US is currently so instable, I doubt that can happen if the the EU kowtows to the UK's demands in this exit process. The EU should give the UK the bare minimum to get the things the EU require from the UK but always baring in mind that the survival of the EU is more important than the immediate economic impact of a poor EU/UK settlement.
As for the UK, it's what we've voted for, if we want to make a go of it we shouldn't be relying on the largesse of the EU.
Charles Brandon
Member
I'm not asking the EU to care for the best interests of the UK, I'm suggesting that it doesn't go against its own best interest simply because it fucks the UK over worse. And don't give me this infantile bollocks about crying and being nice. This is people's lives and you'd happily see them destroyed simply because you feel slighted? Grow up.
Yes, but not from a political standpoint. A member leaving the EU and doing better afterwards would simply question the pure existence of the EU itself - which currently is dangerous with Trump playing golf and Putin leading the US. We need a unified EU more than ever. Funny thing is, with UK gone, it's possible to discuss about topics like the EU army again. One of many points blocked by the UK (at least as far as I know).
Charles Brandon
Member
The EU should be strong enough to keep itself together on its own merits without having to put the boot in to the UK. If it isn't strong enough to sell itself that way, which I very much doubt, then I suggest it doesn't have much future anyway.
protomouse
Member
I'm not sure May & Co. will even want to attempt for an EEA/Norway-style Brexit, because free movement of people (which is what Leave effectively voted against) is part of that deal.
The UK will be worse off in every single way. Any other outcome would be a huge failure of the EU negotiation team. They have got all the cards in their hands. The UK's got nothing. Even the German car industry would much rather not harm their excellent relationship with the German government than to make a fuss over the UK market.
PdotMichael
Banned
People lives is such nonsense to bring up here.
It's May's job to provide a reasonable post Brexit plan. And right now it was only the UK which stated to use EU nationals in the UK as hostages in the incoming negotiations but I guess that are not the important lives.
This news is thread worthy but i don't know if it was on neogaf before :
http://www.businessinsider.fr/uk/nigel-farage-will-leave-britain-if-brexit-is-a-disaster-2017-3/
Nigel farage will not hesitate to change country if brexit doesn't go well .... nigel... farage.
I would laugh like a mad man if it was not so sad for UK.
http://www.businessinsider.fr/uk/nigel-farage-will-leave-britain-if-brexit-is-a-disaster-2017-3/
Nigel farage will not hesitate to change country if brexit doesn't go well .... nigel... farage.
I would laugh like a mad man if it was not so sad for UK.
An unstable UK is in nobodies interests. Apart, that is, from the odd poster who seems to take great interest in the idea that the UK is responsible for the world's wrongs because it voted to leave the EU and should suffer accordingly.
Charles Brandon
Member
People's lives will never not be relevant to this discussion. Both sides are just as bad as each other when it comes to the rights of EU nationals but I agree that May is failing in her duty, however, I am asking YOU as an individual to look beyond the politicians and the bullshit in the papers and consider the implications of your preferred treatment of the UK for the millions of people just like you who live here. We are not your enemies.
Or get shafted by large economies?
Trade deals are very much the bigger economy wins. The UK has a big economy compared to individual countries but there are very few of them making point to point deals outside of trade blocs, and those who do act as individual nations are typically natural resource exporters. Compared to most of the major trade blocs the UK isn't that large.
I'm fairly convinced that the UK will lose more than what it gains. Ironically, I think it will be constituents that voted for Brexit that will pay the biggest price. The people on the periphery: people in Wales valleys, Cornish fisherman, Norfolk farmers, etc. who will be the biggest losers. The Tories have no incentive to care for them once our departure from the EU is finalised and the battle for IndyRef2 is in full swing straight after.
I only hope that we in Scotland will vote for independence so that we can we keep & strengthen the socially progressive policies in stark contrast the mean heartedness of current Tory government policy.
And to think I once was an enthusiastic supporter of the Union...
I only hope that we in Scotland will vote for independence so that we can we keep & strengthen the socially progressive policies in stark contrast the mean heartedness of current Tory government policy.
And to think I once was an enthusiastic supporter of the Union...
UK: Hello China, we would like to make a trade deal tailored to our needs.
China: Sure. Give us access to your market and we'll grant you access to ours in 10 years. Plus all of those measures that benefit us and not you.
That's a good deal BTW.
#Winning
Who said unstable? If there's any instability it'll be the UK's own fault. The EU is a pretty rational actor, but since it's intra union trade is via a political entity it's main economic focus will be ensuring the stability of the that political entity not securing 4% of it's GDP via trade with the UK.
If that means shafting the UK, then it's simply the UK's own fault for opting to be a 3rd party. The EU has no responsibility to provide the UK with a soft landing.
The point of trade deals is that both parties win. If the bigger winner makes the other the loser by default then that is purely semantics.
PdotMichael
Banned
One side is way worse, while the other side even pitched the idea of UK nationals not losing their EU citizenship.
There is absolutely no reason to even try to paint an image of the evil EU which isn't nice enough to the UK. Stop that bullshit.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The only shocking thing is that there are still British citizens unaware of how little goodwill the UK has accrued over the past couple of decades with its petulant behaviour, abnormal demmands and disruptive policies that have prevented further integration and coordination. Your government has never been well liked. As a matter of fact, it's been a constant pain in the lowerest part of the back. The EU accepted your government's antics because the UK was an important member state and a contributor to the Union, but now that you are leaving, the Union hasn't have to deal with your shit anymore, let alone making you any favours or sending some roses with a pretty note to say goodbye.
The UK was that godawful flatmate that is constantly leaving the waste bin open during summer, making a ruckus at night and leaving the toilet seat cover up just to make a point, but couldn't be kicked out because he always paid a larger part of the rent on time and brought the TV. And now that he's decided to stop renting and move into his own place, he expects you to help putting his things in the truck and setting a house warming party while being a tad indignant over our lack of enthusiasm.
No thank you. Just pack your shit with the minimal fuss and let's remain friendly enough not to call each other names the next time we meet around.
This is not the EU being mean to the UK. This is life catching up with the UK.
Miles Quaritch
Member
No-one can argue in good faith the UK electorate were lied to. They were time time again that the promises leave were making were bullshit, but they still deciding to vote leave because of sovereignty and taking back control.
As for people's lives, only one country is threatening to use people are hostages during the negotiations...
But it's interesting to the talking points starting to form for when the UK can't negotiate any kind of good or even reasonable deal.
People's lives!!!! Won't someone please think of the children!!!!!
As for people's lives, only one country is threatening to use people are hostages during the negotiations...
But it's interesting to the talking points starting to form for when the UK can't negotiate any kind of good or even reasonable deal.
People's lives!!!! Won't someone please think of the children!!!!!
In that scenario, if those countries have a veto right, then you have a veto ability as well, so any disadvantages you receive from a deal are your sole responsibility.
Even if you choose to forego your veto, you can probably still barter for some goodies from those other countries in exchange for your consideration beforehand. That's politics for ya.
Charles Brandon
Member
I haven't said anything about anyone being evil, I am not talking about the EU's negotiating position, I am talking about you and your opinions and your callous disregard for the people in this country.
FWIW the EU has said that it will not negotiate on the rights of nationals until the money issue is settled. The UK is prepared to discuss those rights immediately.
Sure, but you still have to compromise more than if you're representing only your own interests.
PdotMichael
Banned
Sure it sucks for the UK that they can't just skip topics because they don't like them.
Charles Brandon
Member
I don't understand your point.
edit: sorry I get it. No one is skipping topics, it's about the order of priority. You accuse the UK of refusing to discuss the rights of EU nationals when the UK has stated many times that it wants to discuss them as soon as possible but the EU won't do that until the thorny and complicated issue of money is settled, which will take months, if not years.
Muffin1611
Banned
If the UK government would care about peoples lives they wouldn't go along with Brexit.
Charles Brandon
Member
The current UK government is filled with morons and dickheads and the opposition is even worse. Look beyond them.
No one said you are.
The thing is the UK got exception over exception since it joined the EU. That wasn't enough.You guys voted to leave and now have to deal with the consequences.
I'm all for giving the UK a good deal if it benefits us.
The UK is basically Canada or Australia for us now. A friendly but nothing more. We have to look out for our own first and foremost. And just like when we negotiated with Canada the EU should look to get a result that benefits us the most.
You can't expect to divorce your wife and still live with her and get it on 5 times a week
That's not true.
The EU said multiple times it will negotiate this very quickly. Just not before Art. 50 is trigger like May wanted
Charles Brandon
Member
I have no problem with that. A pragmatic, unemotional, sensible negotiation is all that I want. Of course the EU should not give the UK a single Euro for free. I wouldn't expect them , given the circumstances. A mutually beneficial compromise with the UK taking a lower case l is fine by me. We don't have to fuck but we can still go out for dinner.
Also,yes it is http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-angela-merkel-eu-migrants-deal-a7445261.html
Charles Brandon
Member
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